Oh boy, it's that time of the year, the time for debate!

I'll start with my opinion; the reason why I decided to create this topic. The way CV works right now isn't an exact representation of what it's meant to represent (Contributor Value), and it can be abused and exploited to no end.

Let's refer to the FAQ for more information:

What are levels, and how can I increase my level?
Levels represent a user's contributions to the community.

We don't really need to read further. CV is supposed to measure how well a user has contributed to the community, but what it really does is represent the ability of a user to push the "Create Giveaway" button, regardless of your win/give ratio, how many people had the chance to participate in your GAs, or any other factors that could measure "contributions to the community" with more precision.

There are a couple of design flaws which I'll try to explain, and I hope the point gets across since it's a bit late, and my English isn't in the best of shape.

First, you can exploit your way to a high level without being particularly generous. Do a few quick giveaways of bundled games to get a nice starting win/given ratio, then look for one (or a couple) of those private GA groups. "Potato GAs of the Potato!", they call themselves. With every characteristic element every private GA group has: a member limit and mandatory giveaways every X days if you get into it.

Then you just need to play along: start creating GAs and the other members of the Potato GAs of the Potato will create some too, and that little Secret Santa of yours will net you Contributor Value while, at the same time, you'll most likely win a lot of Potato games by the other members, so you won't really "lose" anything in the process. Your CV rose but did you contribute anything to the community? The answer is no. The same results could have been achieved by making the GA group in Steam, using a random number generator to determine winners, but why should they do that if they can use the SG platform and rake in CV in the process?

Then we need to introduce the biggest losers of this scheme: people who make public, level-restricted GAs. In their good will of rewarding people who contribute to the community -or at least that's their intention- they set a bar which low levels who are actually contributing, even if limited a bit by their wallet, can't cross; while people who have traded gifts with only 20 other people and received the same amount they've given in return are free to enter.

In short: Giving the opportunity to win $100 worth of games to 10 people is worth the same as giving the entire userbase that same opportunity. Also you can play a game of "giving to my friends, taking from everyone", and that isn't healthy for anyone.

The first and easiest solution people have found to combat this system is pretty easy to spot: there are tons of "adding to my whitelist" topics here in Discussions. Having individual control of who actually has a good ratio for a better indication of contributing level is the only way you'll make sure your game gets to the people you want to. But we shouldn't need to use that if the system was designed with the goal of rewarding contribution in mind.

For this, I have thought of several possible solutions, and you're free to suggest more in the comments section.

  1. Split CV into Public CV and Group CV: This is pretty straight forward. You measure how many of the user's GAs have been created for everyone and how many of them have been for groups/whitelist. For example, if you're level 8 a possible split would be level 7 public CV and level 7 group CV (I think the result would be that based in its exponential nature but feel free to correct me), in which case you don't really have a problem, but, most importantly, it would allow givers to restrict level 0 public CV/level 8 group CV users from their giveaways if they don't want people who have been gaming the system in their GAs.

  2. Create a Ratio value and add it to the filter options available when creating a giveaway: this solves the problem of weeding out "leechers" that drives some people to create high level GAs and forget about non-leechers who don't have a fat wallet. If you set the Ratio requirement to 1, the guy who has given $100 and won $90 is on the same playing field than the guy who has given $1000 and won $900. If you still want to reward the $1000 guy, use normal CV as a filter and you're all set.

  3. Make CV gain proportional to how "open" your GA was: Straightforward too. If your GA was visible to 100% of the community, you get 100% of its CV value. The lower the proportion of the userbase able to enter it, the lower the CV you get.

  4. Make won gifts decrease CV: this would encourage people who have been winning a lot to start giving more for a while. You could start at level 3, with levels 2, 1 and 0 representing people who win more and 4 to 10 representing people who have been giving more.

And... that's pretty much it, some final considerations:

  1. This is an opinion. The CV system feels broken to me, but it doesn't have to be like that for anyone else. Feel free to discuss why it's working as intended if that's how you see it.
  2. Before someone fires the first ad hominem attack, value this piece for what it is instead of who wrote it. I have no particular interest in changing the system so I can enter the promised land of high-level GAs, since I have pretty much every game that I like already in my library. In fact I would be even lower level with some of the proposed changes, but developing a fair system is far more important than any personal interests.

Thanks for reading, leave your comments, and have a nice day!

9 years ago*

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What's your opinion on the subject?

View Results
Yes, it could use some changes
It's completely fine as it is

By the way, I just realised that it should be possible to detect forum giveaways, so it would be possible to distinguish between private giveaways posted to the forum and private giveaways given to others. It would be possible to tailor CV to that, if one wants. For example if my hidden forum giveaway had just 3 entries, I could get CV anyway, because SG knows that I made it public to forum goers, and not just shared the link with a few friends.

9 years ago
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How can you distinguish between private giveaways posted to the forum and posted outside of the forum? O.o I would love to know it.
If what you have in mind is parsing all the posts looking for giveaway lins (which would be a huge load on the server), keep in mind that many giveaways are posted giving only the code. And don't forget about puzzles, whose links are posted in Itstoohard , Imgur or other external sites.

9 years ago
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Yeah, I thought about parsing the text (which shouldn't be a huge deal if done right, since posted text is parsed anyway). But you're right, that won't cover itstoohard.

9 years ago
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It's been a long time since I've studied anything about web development, but you CAN track back what was the last page the user visited before visiting yours, or, in other words, where was the link that gave you access to a certain page. So it would be easy to classify forum giveaways as any GA where users are coming from "http://www.steamgifts.com/*", itstoohard, etc and group giveaways for the rest.

9 years ago
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Then people just have to copy paste the link instead of clicking on it, so there is no referral...

9 years ago
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Yup, no easy solution for it. You think it would be feasible to link a certain GA with its correspondent forum post or puzzle somehow, so it can be verified that it isn't a closed group GA?

9 years ago
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No. In the puzzle threads most of the time only the 5 letter code is provided, and it can appear in a youtube video, in a web after solving a jigsaw, in the code source of a picture... No way to control all that.

9 years ago
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This is unrelated to the topic at hand and my personal opinion, but making people stop making wonky puzzles and sticking to a simple format would be good.

Specially, I would add one rule: puzzles which make you install software to solve them are FORBIDDEN. What the fuck was up with that guy who wanted us to crack a .rar password? For many of the less tech-savvy people out there, trying to solve that is a sure way of getting malware into your computer.

9 years ago
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Nooo!! It would kill all the fun! :_( It that happens at any time, I think I would give up puzzles. It would be soooo boring solving always the same kind of puzzle.... And you have to understand that the game is his, he paid for him, and he can choose how to raffle it or what people can win it. If he couldn't do all that, he would not be using this page at all, and a lot of people neither (and yes, I think the same about Steam groups).

And it would be more interesting that you explain me why you want more public giveaways. i wrote here why I think it is a terrible idea.

View attached image.
9 years ago*
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I didn't recall saying I want more public GAs, and if I did please point me to it. Another user in a different thread attacking me for "trying to propose a solution which is beneficial for me", and it makes me wonder if people have really understood what the post is about.

I'm indifferent to more or less public GAs, but I don't like people who only circlejerk around in private groups to get a CV that enables them to leech from the public pool without actually participating in it. It's the whole point, if you contribute to the public pool, you can win from the public pool.

9 years ago
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  • I am not acussing you from anything, so please don't start going defensive.
  • I understand that your points 1 and 3 are about making public giveaways over other type of giveaways.

    1. Split CV into Public CV and Group CV
    3. Make CV gain proportional to how "open" your GA was

9 years ago
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Maybe you're not, the other guy sure was :P

Point 1 isn't about favoring public over group. It's just about giving each user points corresponding to the type of giveaway he/she has created. If you're giving to groups, you'll get a higher contribution level when it comes to better group GAs, and if you're making public GAs, you'll get a higher level for entering better public GAs. Maybe it has its flaws, but it's still better than your closed GAs making you a higher general level.

Point 3 is simple: group GAs already have other entry systems in place not usually tied to level. So, if level doesn't matter for those ones, get a higher level if you're doing public ones because of the same reason point 1 exists. With the added advantage that, if you are giving to bigger groups or bigger whitelists, you still get a big % of CV, which would solve the problem #1 creates (not getting anything for doing a GA for a 3000 member group, which can still be considered almost like an open GA). Numbers would be up for discussion, but it would certainly need to be non-linear: a GA for a 5000 member group should grant you maybe 99% of CV, if the group is 200 members big you would get 80%, and if it's a group with just you and 5 buddies (an extreme example of the exploit problem) you get 10%.

(edit) And if people are just worried about their virtual penis decreasing in size because they like to be level 10 even if their contribution is arguable, that's why the value of your gifts in dollars is displayed in your profile!

9 years ago
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So where all the private giveaways go? Another CV category? public CV, group CV and private CV?

And you basically are asking for a measure of the people who enter each giveaway, the more people enter the more CV you get. It is in that way in other giveaway sites, and I still prefer this CV system.

Auff tío, qué complicado es esto de debatir en inglés xd

9 years ago
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There would be nothing to stop people from creating any puzzles they want. People are already not getting any CV if they create a hard enough puzzle that less than 5 people solve. Suppose SG awarded people CV for such private giveaways if the link came from the forum. How is that bad? Sure it doesn't cover all cases, but it will still be good, IMO.

9 years ago
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so basically, 3 examples already that shows that in fact YOU ARE "trying to propose a solution which is beneficial for you" from 2 posts below. 1st of all "I'm not a member of any groups, so all groups are exploiters and should be punished", then you have nothing against niche games giving lesser value, because everyone (aka you) only wish for non-niche games anyway. And now we should stop people from making wonky puzzles, why? because you cannot solve them and join their GAs.

While your group problem, while one may agree with you or not, could be defended as being objective, latter ones, especially puzzle one clearly points that you simply wish for a system that would be more profitable for you, and anyone wishing for a different system just wants it so he could exploit it.

9 years ago
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Dude, get yourself a tinfoil hat, the level of conspiracy theory here is awesome.

I AM a member of some groups, and I have BOTH given games to them and won from them. It doesn't mean I think people who do it ALL THE TIME aren't gaming the system.

I won South Park: The Stick Of Truth from one of the hardest puzzles you could imagine, had like 15 solvers. Still, if you read more carefully, it doesn't mean puzzles which require you to install 3rd party software -specially risky 3rd software like more obscure apps- are exactly nice.

And I don't even know what to say against your non-niche game argument, since you're pulling evidence out of your ass.

Nothing in the OP was said about popularity of games and puzzles, everything you're using against me is taken out of context, from sub-threads talking with other fellow users about other topics. And what you're doing is chasing me around the whole thread in order to harass and discredit me with whatever you can.

If you're a group trader cheater and the proposed change would hurt you a lot, don't go around bullying the guy with the megaphone, that's not going to make change more or less probable to happen.

9 years ago
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But why would anyone do it? How many people would deliberately try to reduce someone else's chance of getting the giveaway counted as a forum one? And even if quite a few did want that (which I doubt), there would still be enough forum clicks to prove the matter.

9 years ago
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If you are saying that giveaway links with no referral should be considered as 'out of the forum' giveaways, you are killing puzzles again.

9 years ago
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As hezur6 cleverly said, it's also possibly to detect someone coming from itstoohard.

Sure, it's still exploitable. Someone could create an itstoohard link and give it only to his small group of friends. But there are always ways to cheat.

9 years ago
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Again, let me explain you: not all puzzles are from itstoohard.

9 years ago
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tl;dr.
NO.

9 years ago
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OK

9 years ago
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Even though I did not read all of it someone who created giveaways did contribute to the community it doesn't matter if they gave away 1 AAA game or 100 bundle games they just did. If you don't want leechers to enter just start a private group or giveaway yourself and invite only the people you know. I havent experienced any problems with this system whatsoever but I've to admit I havent created any giveaways for a long time.

9 years ago
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Dude. I mean no disrespect by saying this, but if you didn't read all of it, why are you replying? This post wasn't about leechers, so your answer is totally out of context.

9 years ago
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The system is kinda fine as it is, but I really like the thought of a proportional CV!
Also it bugs me that the threshold for valued giveaways was put to 5 or more entries. Had a lot of full-value-games dissappear that way =(

9 years ago
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I feel the exact same way you do. So I blacklist people who give only in a small potato. The only give in their small potato and want to win from others. I hate private group giveaways. All my giveaways have been in public group or invite which was places in a topic and whitelist giveaways which include only people who do a lot of giveaways for the public to help the community!
So I agree with your proposal totally!

9 years ago
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I had giveaways in a private group for those who haven't won a lot. Several private groups are simply meant to set up a certain condition on entry. That's one reason I advocate just adding such conditions as part of the site.

9 years ago
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I'm small potatoes
because big potatoes is for later.
Suit yourself :')

9 years ago
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no need to make it complicated. in life nothing is absolutely fair. deal with it.

9 years ago
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i actually like the second and third suggestions.

9 years ago
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I don't particularly see public giveaways with a level as a reward for generosity when I'm making them so don't believe I'm missing out. It's more about trust for me that they understand the gifting process, will mark as received when I send it to them, and that they won't try to scam me for an extra key by falsely claiming the one I sent them is duplicated. The level system works quite well when it comes to that in my opinion.

It could be said that I'm still ultimately rewarding people who have given stuff away, but wanting to keep my record of having "0 not received" is why I do it above all else. I'll sometimes treat gifts differently to keys and open those giveaways up for more people as I can always screenshot my gift history but would have no way of proving a key was unusued if came down to it. I don't mind where people get their CV, if it's public, group or private.

As a bit of an aside, I think the benefits of having a decent amount of CV when it comes to winning public giveaways are overestimated. This is a good thing as it drives people to make more giveaways in general. Perhaps other people's experiences are different. but I've won one $250 CV public giveaway (now reclassed as level 5) over a year ago and nothing above.

Overall I'm happy enough with how things are.

9 years ago
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I've read only a hit here and there, yea, I agree, especially with the leechers thingy (if I understood this correctly ~)

9 years ago
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Sadly, no, you didn't, feel free to try to read the whole thing when you have the time!

9 years ago
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Just gonna put in my philosophy here, I usually do level 1 or 2 giveaways mostly because I don't want to deal with the masses of level 0s. I also create private ga's and stick them in a forum thread so that people who participate in the forum can win some games.

Another thing I did is have you guys choose from a few Sid Meier's game for me to give away, and then gave it away a few days later.

My financial situation is not the best, I don't have the money to buy games to giveaway. For me, this site is a way for me to get some games that I couldn't afford to buy. In order to repay everyone, I get games off tremorgames and give those away. I spend a few minutes on the site each day, and I can giveaway a few games each month.

9 years ago
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CV is a mess, specifically because any 'value' assigned to the giveaway is arbitrary.
Specifically because SG doesn't know how much it cost the giver to acquire said game.
Any system in place will be flawed, end of story. :P :P

I personally view these as flaws in the cv system:
1) regional prices
2) cd-key vs actual steamgift
3) bundle list
4) discounts/sales
5) 5 entries required to even get cv
6) games base price dropping or going f2p
which can never be worked out to everyones satisfaction

So the only true fix to it, would be to get rid of cv/levels all together. Why should people be rewarded for giving?

And there should be no concern for 'leechers', if you are lucky enough to win many times, you shouldn't feel ashamed or punished for it.

9 years ago
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I think I've been here long enough to say, any CV system will never be perfect and will always have some kind flaws. Trying to fix/completely change the system will just create new problems, and honestly, I imagine CG doesn't even bother reading these CV threads, and I wouldn't blame him at all.

9 years ago
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Yep, I wouldn't even bother if I was him. Specially when every attempt to create civil, productive discussion is trampled by a couple of kids who don't know any manners...

Such is life, maybe you're right and any CV we can think of will have flaws, just like nobody is perfect. Thanks for contributing!

9 years ago
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Closed 9 years ago by hezur6.