As title. Can any American citizen answer me this?


Didn't thought this thread would be this popular. So here is something for you guys, Christian or not.

9 years ago*

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No it's not true. Merry Christmas.

Edit: Oh no, they seem to have become aware I posted this within the minute I did. I hear banging at the door. I'm going to go check it.

Edit 2: Yeah okay, so they didn't take my phone. But I'm in a jail cell now. When I entered a rough looking guy looked at me square in the eye, snarled a smile and said, under his breath, "merry christmas". I haven't seen him since they took him, but I've heard his screams of pain. They're com

9 years ago
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Haha!

9 years ago
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LoL, wait for me, I will come and bail you out. Maybe next year.

9 years ago
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MERRY CHRISTMAS

9 years ago
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Bahahaha! I loved this post!

9 years ago
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You fool, we use Samtsirhc Yrrem now!
(Ssamt-t'sirk Ear-rem)

Until they start listening to us in reverse, we should be okay.

9 years ago
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10/10 would read again

9 years ago
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I am not American, but the problem is that some people get really offended if you say Merry Christmas to them, and they are not celebrating Christmas, because of their religion og other reasons. You can say it, but you need be a bit "careful" with who you say it to.

9 years ago
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Bullshit, no one gets offended by that, it is a retarded way of thought. I don't celebrate Christmas and could care less if a Christian or a Muslim greets me with what ever. Who ever gets offended by an holiday greet, take a broom and shove it up their uptight ass. :)

9 years ago
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+1

9 years ago
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9 years ago
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9 years ago
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We have less of an immigration problem and more of a racist arsehole problem, in my humble opinion.

9 years ago
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9 years ago
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Just like there are fanatical religious people, there are fanatical atheists who get really agitated if you "try to shove your religion in their throats".

Everybody gets those...

9 years ago
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being an atheist that celebrates Christmas because family, food and stuff... atheists can be extremely retarded sometimes.

9 years ago
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Meh... The trappings of a modern "American" Christmas, except for those specifically referencing the nativity, have more to do with old pagan traditions than anything else.

People who try to say there's a war on Christmas in the USA are either, A: Trying to sell a political position, B: Trying to sell advertising slots during their news broadcast by airing "news" stories that anger people with their blatant stupidity, or C: Are crazy whack-jobs that no one should take seriously.

Christmas, if people were honest, is practically a secular holiday. It's about family, the spirit of giving, goodwill toward others, and the quaint notion that maybe there could be peace on Earth while human beings still roam its surface. It's about showing your loved ones how well you know them by picking out a gift that speaks to them in that special way. It's about a festive atmosphere of twinkling lights cookies, nostalgia, and Santa riding around in a Norelco razor... things that capture the imaginations of children too young to speak, and too old to walk. It used to be about Brach's Arabian Nights candy mix, too, but that stuff hasn't truly existed for ages... though occasionally they still put out a feeble parody of the stuff for people willing to spend good money to be disappointed.

I get irritated at people trying to cram religion down my throat, by I will never, ever, be even the slightest bit irritated at someone wishing me a Merry Christmas, simply because of religious connotations. The phrase, for most people, carries about as much spiritual weight as "Rock on, dude!" or "Good luck!"

Now, the British phrase of "Happy Christmas" does grate on me slightly, but that has everything to do with sounding jarring compared to every single utterance of Merry Christmas I ever heard in my life. Besides, "Have a merry Christmas and a happy new year" just sounds better than "Have a happy Christmas AND a happy new year."

Anyway, I wish everyone, regardless of race, credo, age, nationality, sexual orientation and/or politics, religion, or level of physical or mental ability a Merry Christmas, a happy new year, and a joyous holiday season, cloaked in as much nostalgia, goodwill, and the love of those near and dear to you as you can stand.

9 years ago
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I wish you a very Happy Christmas and a Merry New Year, Warlocke! :)

9 years ago
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Very well said, Warlocke. And pretty much word for word, my own thoughts on the whole thing.

I'm atheist. I do however celebrate a mix of Solstice and Xmas, because it goes back to the pre-Christian traditions and it is just a season of love, giving, family, and celebration of life and all that. It is the return of the sun and warmth (at least in the northern hemisphere). A time to be thankful for all you have and give your love to those who mean the most to you (usually in the form of sharing gifts). So regardless of how you say it:
-"Merry/Happy Xmas"
-"Happy Hanukkah"
-"Happy Holidays"
-"Happy Kwanzaa"
-"Season's Greetings"
-"Solstice Greetings"
-or whatever possible version/combo/holiday you do

And even if you don't celebrate, WHY would you have an issue with someone to just basically giving you a seasonal version of "Have a nice day"? Just need to get your undies out of a wad if you do have an issue with someone saying that to you. -_-

9 years ago
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Fanatics and extremists tend to be douchebags no matter the denomination. I think that's the underpinning lesson that we can all take away from this. Unfortunately, the law tends to cater towards the squeakiest wheels. Not necessarily the most in need of change, just the loudest complaints (regardless of rationality).

9 years ago
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Going to extremes is, by definition, a bad idea.

9 years ago
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+1

9 years ago
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I don't have a problem with it, but a lot of people tend to have issues with "Merry Xmas", which is what I use.

9 years ago
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HOW DARE YOU SIR! I take offense to you saying no one gets offended, and also of your misuse of, "could care less" as opposed to couldn't care less which is what you really wanted to say.

But really, people will become offended over anything. Everyone is a unique little snowflake soaked in kerosene and ready to light their match.

Its not just xmas greetings, its every facet of life. SJW's represent this rather well...

9 years ago
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Jehovah Witnesses hate Christmas with a burning passion...

When I was in 5th grade we did a Christmas play. There was one kid who loved what we were doing more than anyone else. He hadn't told his parents but somehow they found out. They forced him to quit, the teacher said it was part of his grade and they didn't care.
He was at school for a few more days, very depressed, and then just disappeared.
The story was that his family went on a mission.
A couple years later he was back. He told a couple of his friends what really happened; He tried to kill himself.

Moral of the story is don't exclude people. Say Merry Christmas, Happy Hanukkah, Happy Kwanzaa or whatever else!
It's just nice to let people know you care enough to say something nice :D

9 years ago
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Even if i am a muslim, i don't get offended with someone saying that to me.Once i had a relationship with a christian girl.I greeted her MERRY CHRISTMAS every year with something.And she greeted me back.
Whoever gets offended by a holiday greeting is a complete asshole :)

9 years ago
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+1000

9 years ago
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No. Every year, the right wingers try and convince people that there's a War on Christmas! You can say it to your heart's content.

9 years ago
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This is pretty much it. It's a myth perpetuated by people who are afraid that their way of life is under attack by godless heathens

9 years ago
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It would be a myth if people are not being assaulted by leftists for their beliefs. The hatred going around gets strong. Merry Christmas and god bless, you two.

9 years ago
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One or two possibly genuine stories get blown out of proportion into a fully fledged War on Christmas. That's like saying that one or two Jewish bankers proves a global Jewish lizard-person illuminati. In other words, it IS a myth. Merry Xmas to you, too!

9 years ago
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Try to act mature when discussing with others.

9 years ago
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A comical exaggeration does not mean someone is being immature, but attempting to be humorous.

9 years ago
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Really?

9 years ago
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Well, in this case it certainly was.

You should also consider that your own remark of "Merry Christmas and god bless, you two" could be interpreted as a passive-aggressive jab given it followed a claim of victimhood. It's easy to judge but really a lot of it can be down to personal interpretation. Just something to keep in mind!

9 years ago
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Proud godless heathen here. Merry Christmas though... I still like presents.

9 years ago
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Those godless heathen leftists trying to take the Christ out of Christmas!

9 years ago
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9 years ago
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I'm not jewish and I'm not offended if someone wishes me a merry hanukkah. However, I'm not american, I have no idea how these things work up there...
Also, I think it's cool to mention, I'm not christian but I do celebrate christmas as the capitalism day :D

9 years ago
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"Capitalism, ho!"

9 years ago
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murr crustmiss :)

9 years ago
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You can say Merry Christmas, a lot of people just push Happy Holidays because it's more "Politically Correct" but most people around where I live don't really care either way because you're still being polite.

9 years ago
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Christmas is what I celebrate, so tough luck to you, you are getting a merry Christmas.

9 years ago
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Christmas is what I celebrate, so tough luck to you, you are getting a merry Christmas.

9 years ago
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Why say "merry christmas" when you can say "Allah Akbar!"?

9 years ago
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Nobody would, and Merry Christmas!

9 years ago
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Not to be annoying or anything, but it's Allahu-Akbar. And I know loads of Muslims who really don't care if you wish them a "merry christmas", they'll just give you a smile anyways.

9 years ago
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there are many variations for allahu akbar in different languages but i never saw allahu-akbar once.

9 years ago
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Have you seen Hallelujah? Same thing.

9 years ago
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i know what allahu akbar means better than i know what hallelujah is but thanks anyway.

9 years ago
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Transliterating Arabic to English is really iffy; all I know is that if you say "Allah Akbar" in front of a Muslim without the hu (Sounds like "who") in between, they're gonna look at you like you're retarded.

9 years ago
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yes, allah akbar is totally wrong. i agree with that. it's just that hyphen bugged me. maybe you meant allah-u akbar? well, whatever.

9 years ago
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so people saying "happy holidays" instead of "merry christmas"? it's like saying "oh my gosh" instead of "oh my god", i guess. i have nothing against those phrases but if you put an effort to use them just not to say god or christmas, it's irritating.

9 years ago
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I have no problem with "happy holidays." It's just another way to shorten something (instead of Merry Christmas and Happy New Years!), but has the added benefit of covering whichever religious holiday one might be celebrating. Some people may use it now to dodge any mention of religion, but the fact is that people were saying happy holidays loooong before Christmas became such a bone of contention.

Instead of examining someone's motivations, I'd rather just return the sentiment and move on.

9 years ago
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They only do that at stores (like a cashier) to avoid offending somebody who doesn't celebrate Christmas and even then it is only big box stores that will care about such things (and even then the employees often don't give a shit about the rules). But really...it is everywhere. My city puts up Christmas themed lights on the light posts on main street every year and has a Santa visit for kids. If Christmas honestly offended you, you couldn't escape it anyway.

9 years ago
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You can say it but I think its more so parents getting butthurt that their kids hear it on tv or in school than people of other religions getting offended.

9 years ago
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Only according to US news. I'm not sure what dimension they live in, but it's certainly far separated from reality. Some people prefer to say happy holidays because it's more inclusionary, but nobody cares if you say merry christmas. Not surprised that you've heard this though, the US media is currently so scared of intolerance that simple words make headlines because they might offend someone and start a race/religion/sex riot.

9 years ago
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The media is only scared of offending leftist ideology. They still go around trash-talking the Tea Party, guns, and cops.

9 years ago
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9 years ago
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Because there is absolutely no bias towards the right in media, right?

9 years ago
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Wrong button. Meant to edit.

What does equality have to do with it? Are you saying the bias of the big networks are somehow on equal terms than what Fox News has?

9 years ago
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Interesting. Either my browser is barfing, or three posts got deleted in reply to mine up there (including my clarification). If it vanished due to your post accidentally being deleted (collapsing a chain of replies) then really you should have probably just added a new reply, otherwise we wouldn't have likely noticed the changes. This does make me a little worried about an attempt at dishonesty by altering the coherency/appearance of a linked reply, but that's probably just me. I've seen some shady, intellectually dishonest crap online, heh. :P

A brief summary is that media is too much of a living and free thing to have a singular bias against one side or the other. When Fox news defended themselves by claiming to be an entertainment show (or something to that effect), the same could be said of most media outlets. Until there are laws in place that punish news channels for applying too much spin or deliberately misrepresenting their findings, there will never be a truly reliable single media source. Any degree of reliability is entirely on a self-sustained code of honour that can bend or break on a whim (although the degrees of inaccuracy or bias are often quite visible and unashamed at times). Every source, bar none, will always be a step or two behind (or to the side of) the truth, but seldom in close pacing with it. Implying there is a singular bias in any one direction without an equivalent in the opposite is an absurd notion, in my mind.

9 years ago
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Every other site I use just says the comment is removed and not the whole tree.

9 years ago
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Yes, Fox News, Rupert Murdoch, et al. are all terribly afraid of offending people, especially the evil LEFTIST ideology. Bill O'Reilly takes every step he can possibly take to avoid upsetting the liebrul media. That is the reality we all live in, for sure - not some weird reality TV series you're pitching.

9 years ago
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I don't understand what you are saying.

9 years ago
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my advise to you just ignore these kind of bullshit....

i cant understand people dont have other things to give a F about???(tough many dont give F about this one too)...

anyways happy/merry christmas ..... OH sorry you got offended?? you mean you give a f*** ??? WTF ???

you know I dont care you take it as happy/sad whatever you want...

9 years ago
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In some companies, frontline service/retail workers are pushed to say "Happy Holidays" as opposed to "Merry Christmas" to customers, to be all inclusive, or avoid offending.

9 years ago
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that sux so much :/

9 years ago
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"Last week, Pastor Nathan Lorick of the First Baptist Church of Malakoff, Texas led a rally of about 5,000 Christians to defend the right of a courthouse to display the nativity scene while forbidding a banner celebrating solstice."

9 years ago
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Nowadays it seems like there are more and more people actively looking for things to get offended by. I don't live in the US but if someone got offended and starts berating me for using "Merry Christmas" when it's clear that it is just used as a friendly festive greeting, they clearly ain't someone you wanna have fun with.

9 years ago
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I worked at a grocery store where it was the opposite. You had to say Merry Christmas not Happy Holidays. The owners were hyper religious and felt it was their duty to push religion on others. I lost that job because they found out I'm an atheist.

9 years ago
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Extreme people on both sides of this topic are contributing to the problem.

9 years ago
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Thanks for Skyrim ?

9 years ago
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Thanks for Skyrim!

9 years ago
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You say Merry Christmas and it pisses people off...

You say Happy Holidays and it pisses people off...

You say Happy Hanukkah and it pisses people off...

You say Happy Kwanzaa and it pisses people off...

You don't say anything at all and it pisses people off...

You say go blow it out your ass you religious freak nut job and it pisses people off...

You just can't please everyone. So I say just say what you are legally allowed to say and if it pisses someone off, smile and repeat because it will piss them off more and make them look like an even bigger jerk then they already are.

9 years ago
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+1.
People will get offended whatever you say, because there's always one person in the world, crazy or otherwise, that will get offended by a certain word. What I say? Ignore them and carry on with your life. They should be happy you even talked to them in the first place, if they re stupid enough to be offended by a greeting.

9 years ago
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9 years ago
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"we say whatever we want in usa untill you break a law and you get arrested and go jail. america had freedom to say what you want and do what you want. as long as you obey the rules."
It's funny you say he pays too much attention to stereotypes on the TV, but then go on to say this. America has a bad reputation for punishing innocent acts of expression or speech, even when it isn't against the law, or only when it is illegal in the vaguest sense of the word. The recent protests against the killings of several black folks has led to numerous arrests of people who were not in breach of any law. There are plenty of cases of people being arrested for resisting arrest (yes, you read that correctly, resisting arrest... when there was no actual arrest taking place to resist in the first place).

So really, it's a legit question to ask. Like it or not, America is viewed as a culture of frivolous lawsuits and of legal loopholers, both loopholing to attack and to avoid responsibility. No country is perfect, I get that, but you can't deny a certain flavour of sugar-coated suppression lingers in America.

9 years ago
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Could you provide a link to a case where someone has been punished for an act of innocent speech in America?

9 years ago
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You mean other than arrests of peaceful protesters? (violent ones disregarded)
Shouldn't that be enough?
Do note I said "expression or speech". Freedom of speech does not encapsulate only words, but your right to express discontent within legal boundaries, such as protest, or refusing to comply when an authority acts outside of it's boundaries.

For example, what about the frivolous use of tasers and pepperspray for non-hostile situations that the police escalated, where they had no jurisdiction? Google can land you plenty of examples, and really I don't keep an archive of this stuff. Just tried to dig up something but can't find it (nor it's attached video), but there was a fast food cashier who served an officer in a drive-through, who then stormed inside to accuse her of short-changing him, and when he started yelling in her face and telling her to come out to his cruiser, she felt intimidated and told him that she wanted her guardian present for it. In response, he pepper-sprayed her point-blank in the face (below safety distance) and arrested her, and ended up needing to take her to the hospital for the spray she got. I've seen a video of skateboarders just doing their thing, but when an officer gets on scene, his FIRST response was not to address them or tell them to stop (right or wrong), but to literally shove one of them while they were mid-grind, causing an injury (albeit a very minor one) but still totally inappropriate. These are facets of freedom of expression, and while certain forms of expression are curbed, and law enforcement do have a complex job, that doesn't excuse blatant mishandling, violence or intimidation in response to innocent acts. This is just on random everyday activities, now consider the same law and enforcement when it comes to activism and 'issues'. Sure, it's rare for speech alone to get punished, but it's not really 'free speech' when you're allowed to say what you want... from the back of a police van.

Although, in trying to google the fast food thing (and finding a few unrelated McD peppersprayings, one of which was totally justified), I did however find this :
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=mfWjgAK-VsQ

Edit:
And now also this : http://photographyisnotacrime.com/2014/12/california-deputy-tases-beats-man-flashlight-holding-head-foot/
And this : http://www.informationliberation.com/?id=48938
Edit 2:
http://photographyisnotacrime.com/2014/12/undercover-cop-points-gun-at-photographer/
The good old agent provocateur tactic, used to loophole the use of suppression tactics and to squash the activity. That too is a form of preventing freedom of speech, and also punishing the innocent.

You might think that this is a separate issue from freedom of speech, and a singular issue with enforcement, but it really isn't. Enforcement, policy and law are vital parts of the freedom of speech/expression equation. These are not isolated incidents, and there is a steady stream of such things being reported all the time.

9 years ago
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Not what I was looking for, but thanks for taking the time to reply. Regarding large protest, I think that there is almost always some angry people participating looking for trouble in these protests, which leads to the arrests of people. Almost every large Gaza/Israel protest I have seen have been anything but peaceful. So I wouldn't be surprised if that man in the video you linked was behaving aggressively before being arrested. Also, you said that America has a bad reputation of punishing innocent acts of expression or speech. I think this unfair for two number of reasons. First, America has a huge population. This means that you are guaranteed to have more cases of bad policing. Secondly, unlike in many other countries, there are cameras everywhere capturing the acts on film that are then shared online, making it look like America is the worst when it come to bad policing. America is not even close to being the worst. Another reason is that America has a much bigger crime problem than other western countries. I'm not entirely sure about this, but I think that more police officers are killed in America than any other western country. This is why officers are trained to deal with situations more firmly. America would be like the 1800's wild west if you suddenly changed US officers with the soft incompetent Swedish police.

9 years ago
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No problem. Sorry about my lack of articulation turning my posts into walls of text, by the way!
Edit : Oh man that got long. I might come back to trim it down. No offense taken if you only skim-read (or not at all).

But see, this is just the problem though. Even the most peaceful of protests can lead to arrests and unnecessary use of force due to the police being able to use agent provocateurs. They are literally undercover officers who go out into the protesters, mingle a little while, then try to incite people to violence so that the police can then move in and shut the whole thing down. Now, that's not nearly as bad as the fact that if the agent provocateurs fail and the protest remains peaceful, all that officer has to do is something illegal and high-profile, then the forces can move in anyway because "hey look, a car is on fire and we'll just look the other way about our guy". Censoring protest is kind of a direct opposition to freedom of speech/expression. I uh... and sorry if that sounded patronising. The depth of agent provocateurism isn't always known, heh.

The other link with the one guy being nonviolently arrested, everyone who was there witnessing what happened were telling the officer "It's not him, it was the other guy" and "You have the wrong one". The link with the violent arrest was witnessed by someone who told a different story, and even had the man been confrontational or even tried to strike the officer, once you have a person subdued, tasered multiple times and compliant... you don't STOMP on someone's head. Much less if the original offense was as claimed : Asking an officer to move their vehicle. Also consider that if your implied suggestion of "maybe he deserved it" was true, why was he only charged for "resisting arrest" and nothing else? To resist arrest, you need to be charged with something else and then be non-compliant. The guy appears to be compliant, the officer shows an absurd degree of force, and there was no other cited reasons for arrest.

I won't even hazard a guess as to why your crime rates are higher, because these things are often very complex with elaborate social and psychological underpinnings. Calling it "firmness" is a bit of an understatement though. There are plenty of officers with the patience of saints and who are great under pressure, but the number of high-profile stories about these kinds of behaviors in police is a little alarming. Sure it might be the result of the size of America (and hence the proportioning of such stories), but it's also the degree of how bad it gets, and how infrequently the wrong party is held accountable. It's like passively condoning the behavior. Even after having inflicted grievous harm, causing fatalities or putting bystanders directly at risk (remember that case of two officers firing into a crowd when somebody fled into it?).

But... egh.
I'm getting way off on a tangent here.
What I'm saying is that America is far from the great land of freedom people like RedCoats make it out to be, is all. Being arrested doesn't make you guilty, and you can be well within your rights yet forced to comply simply because you don't know if lawfully resisting will cause the officers to become violent. And yes, pepperspray and tasers are violent. Less than lethal they may be, but they are still violent. After all, unarmed strikes can be considered a less-than-lethal weapon, but just because the hand isn't balled into a fist doesn't mean the heel of your palm doesn't hurt like hell when slammed into certain points of your head and neck, y'know?

Violence, incarceration, prosecution and suppression of any kind in response to non-criminal and non-harmful behaviour, even due to bad judgement or misinterpretation, when done often enough, is a big red flag. The trouble is that it only takes one crazy asshole in a precinct to ruin it. Because police get a lot of abuse, they tend to bond quite strongly, but then when someone does something horrendous like that one officer I linked you? You can bet he had people doing their best to tweak the facts to protect him rather than out him. I'm actually genuinely surprised that during my google search I found a single instance of two police officers being charged, but that was because they found out they tried to erase the footage of what happened when they attacked someone 'in the line of duty'.

So I uh... yeah. Just gonna post this and stop my rambling. Absolutely nothing against America. We all have our own brands of bullshit to deal with, bar none. It just makes me cringe when people still believe America is some kind of bastion of freedom, equality and openness, when the reality is that those are actually pretty big issues your country struggles with. Pretending all is great was probably part of how it got so bad. The kneejerk response to America is sometimes because people appear to be trying to elevate their country above everyone else, when really it leaves a lot to be desired. One of us, one of us, one of us. :P

9 years ago
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Deal with it. The founding of our country and what it has accomplished over a couple centuries put it beyond all other countries in the world. America is unique to the point where it will remove its borders to allow everyone in without any credentials. Issues a country may have are irrelevant as they are universal.

9 years ago
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Really? Last time I checked, I don't recall many other civilised western countries having to go on huge protests over the mishandling of police-caused fatalities in recent years. And hey, what's up with that little war thing where it was found that doctored evidence was used to rationalise an invasion of another country? An invasion that took place despite record-breaking protests, and utterly failed it's objective due to having ignored all advice, evidence and findings?

While all countries have their issues, they come in different flavors and severities. Some issues are a natural reflex of progress. Others are the result of bad policy or behaviour, sometimes supported by an absurd number of people. Pretending America doesn't have problems, or calling them "irrelevant" in a subject like this is pretty blinkered thinking, tbh. Ignoring them only lets them fester and drag your country down. Patriotism isn't a hugbox state of blindly chanting "We're the best!" while ignoring the rubble building around you. Not all criticism is some kind of horrible insult to your cherished chunk of land, and it certainly doesn't warrant the "beyond all other countries in the world" eagle-tears you just dropped.

"deal with it"
Indeed.

Edit :
Just saw this. on my twitter feed on my way to bed. Another one. I'm curious of your thoughts it.

9 years ago
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We also don't kill the protesters as it happens so regularly around the world, if they are even allowed to protest. The protests are all staged, so it is really just a gathering mob of thugs who destroy stuff. America is great that way that it allows this stuff to happen.

A click-bait site that exists to only point out civil issues with police.

9 years ago
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Not outright murdering protesters isn't something a culture deserves a medal for, dude. Because hey, over here in the UK we don't rape babies the second they're born, we're great like that! See what I'm getting at? Pointing at uncivilised or brutal countries and saying "We're better than them" doesn't mean the issues in your own country aren't still rather alarming and glazed over. This is a red herring. The want for your country to be a stable, safe, productive place shouldn't stop the moment you pull ahead of countries with honor-killings.

And no, the people who were protesting the impending war in Iraq were not "just a gathering mob of thugs who destroy stuff". The protests against police-caused fatalities are also not "just a gathering mob of thugs who destroy stuff", but I can see how you might think that given the news coverage was focused on the usual sensationalism for views. If you watched some streams of things going down on the ground level, there was a comical moment where the streamer was walking down an empty road, and passed a camera crew and a reporter who had angled themselves to talk with a burning car behind them for effect. Nobody seems willing to consider how far an agent provocateur would act to facilitate the shut-down of any other protest, let alone one that centers around the attitudes and responsibilities of the police.

The simple act of being a protester doesn't automatically mean you're a thug. That's the same dishonest, deflective logic that people have used to say all gamers are killers waiting to happen, or that all gamers are death-threat lobbing manchildren.

Clickbait as it may have been, biased as the overall site may have been, you did not address the underlying issue of the link. I asked you for your opinion on the content of the article, not the site. I'm not even asking you whether or not the police were right in using that degree of force, but more pointing out that if somebody merely thinks you might maybe sorta potentially kinda thinking about reaching for something that might be a weapon, they can just drill you full of holes so long as they remember to chant the good old "I was in fear for my life" get out of jail free card. Yet if the situation was reversed, and an overly emotional or angry police officer blatantly goes to draw a firearm on you (after needlessly intimidating you), you would be found guilty in a heartbeat if you performed a similar act of self-defense.

Again, I'm not saying Americans are stupid or degenerate or any of that divisive nonesense. I'm simply underlining that people who parrot the "In America we have freedom!", "Protesters are just whiny/thugs/butthurt" and "They deserved to die, they should have realised the police are allowed to kill" kind of stuff are totally diminishing a batch of very real problems that need attention. Loving your country is different to ignoring it's shortcomings.

It's just cringeworthy that people try to hold it so far above others when it has just as much working against it as for it. Instead of facepalming, I figured I'd open up on the discussion so that they knew I wasn't just trying to insult folks :P

9 years ago
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I didn't mention Iraq and am completely at a loss as to what you are saying at that point.

9 years ago
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You said that the protesters were just a bunch of thugs. I was saying that isn't what protesters are.
Unless you're going to try qualify how the more recent protest varies from the one against going to war in the middle east, what am I supposed to think?

I can already guess what the difference is here, but I'm going to see if you say it.

9 years ago
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I am glad you mentioned the Iraq war protesters. It is interesting how those people and groups like Act Now Stop War End RACISM (emphasis on racism) appear in the same cities to protest wars during Bush's terms and are conveniently absent when Obama took over and started more wars. These professional protesters have cheapened activism in the name of politics.

There are "protesters" now calling for the murder of cops. These people are now beyond the freedom of expression, are the trash of this free society, and must be treated as dangerous individuals in case they resort to murdering anyone they are entitled to.

9 years ago
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Obama started more wars? Consider me clueless. What wars did Obama start? And while you fill me in, did he use knowingly false evidence to justify them, ignore all advice given by specialist, advisors, UN and related staff?

And yeah, anybody trying to suggest that murder is okay is pretty fucking scummy, but there are extremists in every group of size. The difference is, protest groups are diverse and come from all kinds of backgrounds and operate in loose unison. However, police are an organised, paid force operating under government leadership. Verbal threats from a loose-knit group after a series of highly antagonistic events is a FAR less problematic event than an organised, paid official force causing actual fatalities and then trying to cover for those who caused them.

9 years ago
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Oh right. Wars require an approval from Congress and what Obama did was unilaterally start conflicts by bombing countries like Syria and the countries supporting Isil. My mistake.

9 years ago
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I think you have exaggerated this problem. The cases where a non-aggressive protester gets arrested are the results of individual officers making bad decisions, not something common in America. You almost make it sound like this is common practice in America. Arresting aggressive or threatening people is common in America, so too in many other countries, if not all. If you think that this is wrong or anti-freedom, then we have different opinions on freedom and morals. If we purely used the chance of getting arrested as a measurement of freedom, then yes, America would probably be the most anti-free western country. But I think it is ridiculous to look at it this way. In Sweden you can not only violently protest, but also riot and rape without getting any punishment. Is this freedom?

In conclusion, RedCoats should be fine in America as long as he/she doesn't do anything stupid in protests. If you have to join in on protests where you see individuals acting like fools, then just stay in the back and let the hooligans do their thing in the front. If you are, however, planning on being an aggressive participant of protests, then you should move to the UK where you are less likely to get arrested. If crime, rape or riot is your thing, then Sweden will offer you the best "freedom".

9 years ago
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I'm pretty sure that peaceful protesters were arrested for not dispersing during the war-on-terror protests, even though the police had kettled them into a sealed area where they couldn't disperse from. Though you do have a point that I had assumed this was fairly common, but the few times I have seen streams of protests, it often involved aggressive kettling and people getting arrested simply if a dispersal order wasn't followed. I can appreciate how dispersal is important when a crowd turns hostile, but against a peaceful crowd? That's pretty much like saying "No protesting allowed" which is a dangerous thing to allow. Also, what about the tactics of firing tear gas into not only peaceful, but silent and waiting groups of protesters, without any reason or warning? That happened quite a few times in the Ferguson protests, which again only makes me see a gigantic red flag.

It's true I might be exaggerating the problem here, and really I have to apologise for my walls of text and undoubtedly sounding far more fired up than I do. I also have to acknowledge something of a subject bias, given I am focusing on the inappropriate use of force (or inappropriate arrests, etc) towards innocent or peaceful people, whereas there are people who do genuinely need to be arrested and contained in these scenarios. My concern isn't with the criminal element or those who overstepped the boundaries and got punished for it, but those who got punished when it was unwarranted. Perhaps that is causing me to focus too narrowly, but my core point was simply to underline that it's not as utopian as the previously stated "america had freedom to say what you want and do what you want. as long as you obey the rules", and that the notion of America being above other countries is quite arrogant when it is faced with such issues, y'know? Sometimes it's more a matter of "You have only the freedoms we choose to let you keep", which when combined with the growing concerns of police forces not being held fully accountable for their tragically bad decisions even where the involved officers have been proven to give false reports to cover themselves, is something that should definitely be worried about.

My babbling is more due to trying to back up my sentiments rather than just come across as another random hater. The police are a vital part of any society, and yes they do catch an absurd amount of flak despite the work they do, but because of their position they also need to be held not just in scrutiny but also be held accountable when certain people in their ranks do something shitty. Just how many dead people will it take before administrative leave and an after-shrug is the default punishment for an on-duty fatality followed by false reports? I may make this sound all black and white, but I just find the default attitude of "All people who get attacked or charged totally deserved it" when faced with these things is incredibly worrisome.

9 years ago
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Their leaders should be held accountable.

9 years ago
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9 years ago
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Haha, yeah. Every country has it's own various issues. There are assholes in every country and we all have our different flavours of idiots floating around. It's more that the "AMERICA HAS FREEDOM" mentality has become something of a meme indicating a lack of awareness of one's own country.

Don't get me wrong, I'm not pretending my own shit doesn't stink here. I'm largely unaware of our own political climate because I find our political debate system totally disgusting, and refuse to spend a huge amount of time gathering all the (biased) news resources and then comparing them to find out which one might happen to be remotely factual or close to the truth. As you might guess, I'm a non-voter. I COULD vote, but then that would just end up being a selfish act of guesswork that would be lured by dumb promises of something that I personally would benefit from. An uninformed vote is potentially very damaging after all...

9 years ago
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Two things:

  1. Are you me??

  2. I would like to subscribe to your newsletter.

9 years ago
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I don't think he meant it's against the law or that you'd get in trouble for it, rather that people get upset when you do.

9 years ago
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9 years ago
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Constitutional amendment number one- Freedom of Speech. You can say whatever the hell you want to.

9 years ago
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That amendment however doesn't absolve you from responsibility of your words, though... and sometimes even an innocent and harmless gesture can be penalised if the law, its enforcement or an authority decides to do that entire "we'll just overlook the constitution this one time (again)" thing.

I mean, wasn't there supposed to be some big thing in there about separation of church and state, and yet the country still has an effective caste of second-class citizens so long as homosexual couples are not afforded completely equal consideration under law. The constitution may be upheld as the foundation of the country, but everyone has gotten damn good at loopholing it and using it as a dual-action weapon and escape measure.

9 years ago
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It does excuse rich people from responsibility trying to start a riot, like Louis Farrakhan or Barack Obama.

9 years ago
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That's not the constitution shielding people, that's being rich and high profile shielding you.
Just remember to say "I misspoke" five minutes afterwards and you can be as toxic and idiotic as you want. :P

9 years ago
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9 years ago
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"but USA is not a Christian country anymore"
And yet that religion is used as an easy way to trim prison sentences, and is still a big (albeit disguised) reason why a lot of progress is being held back, such as the gay marriage, contraceptive or abortion issues. It's noble to strive for equality but the culture is still quite heavily saturated by christianity. There is no problem with holding any belief, as your life is your own to do with as you see fit, but the trouble is that these beliefs have a habit of bleeding into law and policy from time to time.

"Atheists are working hard to change everything by bashing Christianity as a personal goal, Atheism is a religion for them, eliminating Christian traditions such as saying Merry Christmas under fake reasons such as equality or that there is other religious holidays happening with Christmas."
Atheism is a religion as much as an empty plate is a meal. The strawman/scapegoat of atheism you are using is pretty dishonest really. The opposition comes from having put up with christian values having been passively marinated over most aspects of life, and it grates on people's nerves. It's more likely that because of the broad range of religions and beliefs in your country, the attempt to move away from "Merry Christmas" is a sign of respect for those who don't celebrate it. "Happy Holidays" is pretty neutral, but really I have to agree that getting hyper-offended over a simple gesture of good-will is just as cringe-worthy.

9 years ago
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You're absolutely correct Uroboros, but I'll just add that Samurai1's statement is incorrect for a more fundamental reason. The USA was never INTENDED to be a Christian country, ever. The framework for the US was laid down primarily by deists and theists, with no establishment of religion and a strict separation of church and state. As Uroborus rightly points out, this has been perverted in many ways, but the simple fact is that saying "USA is not a Christian country anymore [sic]" is just plain wrong on every level.

9 years ago
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I think what was meant by "USA is not a Christian country anymore" is that the people that makeup the country are no longer practicing Christians by and large. It doesn't mean that America was established as a theocratic government. Obviously that would be incorrect, but the way it was stated is correct.

9 years ago
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"There is no problem with holding any belief, as your life is your own to do with as you see fit, but the trouble is that these beliefs have a habit of bleeding into law and policy from time to time."

I'm just thinking out loud here but, isn't that going to happen by nature of having a democratic country? People, whether they are religious or atheist, are going to vote by their own value system so of course you will get people's beliefs "bleeding into law and policy from time to time". I thought that was the beauty of our country, that you as an individual have the opportunity to be represented by voting.

9 years ago
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What you're describing is a representation of people's views through a candidate or staff they voted in. What I was describing was the faith and opinions of candidates being made into law that governs over all, even those who don't share their faith. When you vote for somebody, you don't automatically greenlight every one of their future acts, and even if you did, that doesn't mean certain things shouldn't be struck down for lacking merit or for eroding people's liberty. Again using gay marriage as an example. There is no non-religious reason why they shouldn't be allowed to marry and be held to exactly the same legal and societal benefits, and yet it stays. The only lasting opposition is some weird attempt at people trying to claim ownership of the word "marriage", and insisting that they should settle for a lesser set of rights as a scrap from the table. It's nearly 2015 and this is still an issue.

This is why laws should never be made on opinion, but on fact. Even if you got a majority vote on a law, if that law would openly disenfranchise and discriminate, there is a duty to strike it down and rethink the approach. A comically extreme example here would be to put a vote out for "Should we deport all black people?", and if a majority votes yes, too bad, "democracy has spoken". Or in the case of gay marriage, it's more akin to "Should we prevent anybody named Jacob from being able to marry?". Even with a majority vote of people genuinely not wanting dudes named Jacob to marry, even if it was way up at 99% in favour, it should automatically be stricken down due to lacking merit and being outside of their jurisdiction. Fine, if individual churches, temples, shrines and whatnot all wanted to decline a marriage ceremony? So be it. But if a Jacob found a church willing to marry him then the law should not have any place nullifying it based on "These random people who have no involvement in your life say you can't, because they don't want you to, no real reason".

Hence why I said that those beliefs tend to bleed into law and policy. I was pretty much saying that they don't belong there and with good reason. They're like weeds that need to be uprooted, not sheltered. That's why non-religious folk can be bitter are standoffish at times, because religion has had this awful habit of trespassing on their business, unannounced and unwelcomed. :P

9 years ago
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Full disclosure: I am Christian and I am opposed to same-sex marriage, at the same time I have family and friends who I love who are gay. I don't hate anyone for the sake of being gay, but I do hold to what I believe to be true and will act in accordance to those beliefs.

--But if a Jacob found a church willing to marry him then the law should not have any place nullifying it based on "These random people who have no involvement in your life say you can't, because they don't want you to, no real reason"

The reason is that it violates God's moral law. When the legalization of same-sex marriage came up on the ballot I voted against it. Why? Because I want to make someone else miserable? No, it was because I don't want other people breaking God's commands (whether they believe in God or not) and I don't want my government condoning what God condemns (whether it is a theocracy or not). Why do I feel I have a right to tell people how to live their lives? I don't. Gay marriage passed in my state and I don't begrudge anyone for it, but as a Christian I do sympathize for those who are in sin (gay or not).

9 years ago
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Well, you made a concious choice to place your opinions above the rights of other people, and that is kind of the entire problem : that the government allows this to happen.

Let's say they put it to ballot whether or not women should be allowed to vote, or whether black people should be treated as full citizens? Even if there was a majority vote and the people voting "didn't want them to be miserable", the enforcement of opinion over people's basic rights to be treated as equal citizens is a MASSIVE failing of the american society.

And hey, just to re-re-re-underline this point : I'm not pretending our shit doesn't stink out here in the UK. It hasn't been that long at all since gay marriage became a thing here.

9 years ago
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That is a progress of American society.

9 years ago
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...huh?

9 years ago
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The country is founded on Judeo-Christian principles. It was never a Christian country or else it would be considered a Theocracy.

9 years ago
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Jesus (get the pun?) everybody, Christmas isn't a religious holiday. Its certainly not Christian, and if you don't celebrate it, like I don't, there's no reason to be offended at all.

9 years ago
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