What first person dungeon crawlers have been released before LoG and after the last entries to Wizardry and Might & Magic series for example? I'm pretty certain Ubisoft started the Might & Magic X development after seeing the success of LoG, so I have no problem with the revival statement.
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Tons of them.
The genre is still very alive in Japan, and some have made it overseas too.
Etrian Odyssey series
Class of Heroes series
Orcs and Elves
Arx Fatalis
Fatal Labyrinth
The Dark Spire
Elminage Original
Mazes of Fate
From the top of my head, I'm sure there's more.
The genre was gaining popularity in the west, for the developers to ignore all these titles and say that they revived is just idiotic. If there was a game that did "revive" the genre in the west it'd have to be Etrian Odyssey because the series success made it clear that people still do want first person dungeon crawlers, not Grimrock.
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Except that none of those are really like the old dungeon crawlers although they do have some similarities. Grimrock is much more like the old dungeon crawlers like Dungeon Master or Lands of Lore, so in my opinion they can say that they revived the genre because the Japanese games don't have a similar gameplay.
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"Except that none of those are really like the old dungeon crawlers although they do have some similarities"
Yes they are. Etrian Odyssey, Class of Heroes, The Dark Spire, Elminage Original are all traditional Wizardry styled dungeon crawlers.
"Grimrock is much more like the old dungeon crawlers like Dungeon Master or Lands of Lore"
Since when is Wizardry not considered an old dungeon crawler? Regardless of inspiration a dungeon crawler is a dungeon crawler.
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Wizardry still differs from those games. They just seem like regular JRPGs, but the movement is dungeon crawler style. Legend of Grimrock is very different from the games you mentioned. I checked gameplay videos for every one of them.
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"Wizardry still differs from those games."
They don't. As someone who's played those games they really don't.
You create your own party from various classes.
They view is in first-person, movement is in turn-based grid style.
The combat is also turn-based.
"Legend of Grimrock is very different from the games you mentioned."
Yes, this is because Grimrock as we both know puts an emphasis on puzzle solving rather than battles, in the style Eye of the Beholder, and the games you mentioned above.
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HUGE difference is that the JRPGs you listed all have random encounters.
Saying The Dark Spire is the same as Grimrock is like saying that Final Fantasy is the same as Baldur's Gate.
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"HUGE difference is that the JRPGs you listed all have random encounters."
And so does Wizardry.
"Saying The Dark Spire is the same as Grimrock is like saying that Final Fantasy is the same as Baldur's Gate."
If you read what I wrote I'm agreeing with Desidiosus that Legend of Grimrock plays differently because Legend of Grimrock is based the dungeon crawler style that became popularized with Dungeon Master.
The games I've listed above are all based on Wizardry's dungeon crawler style, but they're dungeon crawlers nonetheless.
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Uhm...I've never heard about Etrian Odyssey and seeing that is sold only a few thousand copies outside of Japan and is only available on Nintendo DS you can hardly say it did anything for the Dungeon Crawler genre. I'm sure it's a fun game for people who like JRPGs with their cutsy manga style graphics (and don't care about the quality of the graphics), but Grimrock was the first dungeon crawler in a long time that was really successful, professionally made and that could be called a spiritual successor to the father of all dungeon crawlers, Dungeon Master. So yes, at least in the western hemisphere Grimrock was definitely the game that revived the Dungeon Crawler genre.
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"Uhm...I've never heard about Etrian Odyssey and seeing that is sold only a few thousand copies outside of Japan and is only available on Nintendo DS you can hardly say it did anything for the Dungeon Crawler genre."
Count the series as a whole and not the first game, and no matter how you look at it Etrian Odyssey did do something. I didn't say Etrian Odyssey did innovative to the genre, but it did show that people still cared for Dungeon Crawlers.
"Grimrock was the first dungeon crawler in a long time that was really successful, professionally made "
This doesn't matter. We're not talking about which game is the most successful, we're talking about which game brought back interest to Dungeon Crawler genre in the west, and that's what the above titles did before Legend of Grimrock.
"the father of all dungeon crawlers, Dungeon Master"
No, that title goes to Wizardry which came out years before. The dungeon crawler genre existed well before Dungeon Master even came into the picture.
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All the Japanese titles you mention still were targeting a niche market. I believe Etrian Odyssey was the most popular one, but even that couldn't break 200k copies sold in the US. I wouldn't call that exactly a breakthrough performance. Grimrock is really what brought the genre (back) to the masses.
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"All the Japanese titles you mention still were targeting a niche market."
Yeah, Dungeon Crawlers at least in the west it was a niche market.
"Grimrock is really what brought the genre (back) to the masses."
I'm not saying Grimrock isn't the most successful one out of all the games that came out in the west, I'm saying it didn't revive the genre. There is a huge difference.
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You could argue what the word 'revive' means, imo what you talk about is not a revival but a 'barely getting along'. Yes, there were Dungeon Crawlers all the time after the last mainstream title (which would be Stonekeep, released in 1995) came out. But neither of those came even close to the mainstream market, at least not in the western hemisphere. Just look at Etryan Odyssey, it's a turn based game (and thus not even a Dungeon Crawler, see below) with graphics that look like they're from 1990 and sold a few thousand copies outside of Japan. If you think that is a 'revival' then I don't know what to say. I seriously doubt that the people at AH even know about that game.
There is no exact definition of 'Dungeon Crawler', but most people talk about the glorious days of grid based real-time combat games when they use that term. And Dungeon Master was the first game of that kind and the father of the traditional Dungeon Crawler. One other very popular series from that era would be Eye of the Beholder. Wizardry is not a traditional Dungeon Crawler, neither is Bard's Tale, Might and Magic or Ultima (which also had 3d graphics in dungeons).
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"You could argue what the word 'revive' means, imo what you talk about is not a revival but a 'barely getting along'"
What I'm talking about revival is interest. Your definition of revival is popularity.
"Just look at Etryan Odyssey, it's a turn based game (and thus not even a Dungeon Crawler, see below)"
It is.
"with graphics that look like they're from 1990 "
What does this have to with anything?
If you're implying that dungeon crawlers or any genre have to have a specific art style then I suggest the way you look at video game genres.
"There is no exact definition of 'Dungeon Crawler"
No, the genre is self explanatory. If the game is based on exploring a dungeon/maze/labyrinth-like environment(s) it's a dungeon crawler. Rogue is a dungeon crawler, Wizardry is a dungeon crawler, Dungeons of Dredmor is a dungeon crawler, etc. I only used dungeon crawlers and not first person dungeon crawlers because it's obvious of what the developers meant.
"but most people talk about the glorious days of grid based real-time combat games when they use that term."
No this is not at all the case. You are the only person I've met that uses dungeon crawler to specify a specific type of them. No one else has had any issue with how I used the term, and many others have used it this way as well .
That's your definition of a dungeon crawler, but not the at all what a (first person) dungeon crawler is considered. What you're basically saying is that Mario Kart isn't a racing game because it doesn't play like Gran Turismo. You're entitled to that opinion, you can call it some made up word, but your definition of dungeon crawlers is not the that definition has been established and everyone agrees with. People call these Dungeon Master clones for a reason.
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Yes, my definition of revival is indeed 'making something as popular again as it used to be'. By your definition Santana never had a comeback (or 'revival') in 1999 - he released new albums all the time after all.
Let's face it, no one outside of Japan who is not part of the Japanese manga geek scene has ever heard about your Etrian Odyssey. You can't revive a genre with a game nobody knows about. And yes, sales have to do something with the word 'revival', especially if we talk about video games. A game that sells two copies can hardly 'revive' anything.
It's pretty clear that the Grimrock devs were referring to the type of game Dungeon Master, Eye of the Beholder etc were when they used the term 'Dungeon Crawler'. Those were the glorious days of the Dungeon Crawler, whatever your definition of it may be. If you think that any game that takes place in a dungeon is a Dungeon Crawler, fine. But that is not what the devs meant and anyone who knows a tiny bit about video game history knows that. Grimrock is a 100% homage to the late 80s/early 90s type of Dungeon Crawler, and that was the time when those games were big. Dungeon Master for example is the game with the most copies sold on the Atari ST. That's popular, kind of Call of Duty popular if you compare it to now.
Also, it's funny you tell me that your definition of the genre is 'established' and that 'everyone agrees' with it when in reality everyone who answered to your posts disagrees with it...
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Grimrock fits both definitions of revival. Your claims of increasing interest in the west for the genre have no merit, if you look at vgchartz. The sales have been dropping for the Etrian Odyssey games, which indicates reducing interest.
Like Phitt said, the obscure handheld games haven't really revived anything. The first Etrian Odyssey game only sold 100k copies in the west. I guess that's successful on the obscure game scale. Grimrock on the other hand spent a few days to a week in the first place of Steam's top sellers list when it was released. It even beat Skyrim, which was still a relatively new game at the time.
Grimrock revived the dungeon crawler genre by being successful and showing that there was still a lot of interest in the genre. It doesn't matter that there were obscure titles with a niche target audience released in between the old dungeon crawlers and Grimrock. People are talking about a space sim revival and attributing it to games like Star Citizen and Elite: Dangerous. There were space sim games released in the recent years, but they were fairly obscure and quickly forgotten. Hence it doesn't matter if games like Etrian Odyssey existed before Grimrock. They weren't highly popular nor did they generate nearly as big increase interest in the genre as Grimrock did.
Elminage Gothic was released on Steam few days ago and it has mostly gone unnoticed. Probably something to do with not many knowing about the series. The random encounters and the separate battle screen make it seem like just another JRPG and as a result uninteresting (to me). I'm sure many others feel the same way.
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your definition of dungeon crawlers is not the that definition has been established and everyone agrees with
You're completely and utterly wrong. The fact that all of us disagrees with your definition of Dungeon Crawler already invalidates "everyone agrees with" semantically.
There is no exact definition of 'Dungeon Crawler
While I also don't entirely agree with Phitt, the fact of the matter is that there is no established definition of 'Dungeon Crawler'. You can think whatever you like, but unless you can dig up some evidence that there's something like the Berling Interpretation for Roguelikes, you're treading water.
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I'm not saying Grimrock isn't the most successful one out of all the games that came out in the west, I'm saying it didn't revive the genre. There is a huge difference.
As I and Phitt keep saying, games in the similar genre really haven't sold well and, looking at sales numbers, were slowly declining over the years. LoG is really the game that popularized the genre with the mainstream audience in the west and from LoG's success, we've seen an explosion of Dungeon Crawler-type games. There are probably more new Dungeon Crawl-like players in the last 2 years than in the 15 years previous combined. If that's not a revival of the genre, I don't know what revival means.
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"There have been previous dungeon crawlers before Legend of Grimrock came out, the genre is still alive in Japan, and Etrian Odyssey and other Japanese dungeon crawlers came out when western developers have abandoned the genre"
"BUT LOOK AT THE SALES! ETRIAN ODYSSEY ONLY DID A FEW THOUSAND!"
"Count the series as a whole, and I'm talking about interest which the Japanese games have made a good job of making western gamers do so for the genre"
"BUT LEGEND OF GRIMROCK IS THE MOST SUCCESSFUL ONE IN YEARS"
"I didn't disagree, as I said I'm talking about interest"
"BUT THE SALES!!!!"
I'm not going to continue this conversation if we're going to repeat the same things.
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You trying to devolve this into a flame war isn't really helping your cause. My second post was expanding on my first one because I thought you didn't see the message I was trying to convey.
1) We're discussing the revival of the genre in general. Yes, all of these great "Dungeon Crawlers" are coming out in Japan but Western developers didn't follow suit. Maybe you can argue that Japanese interest has perhaps remained stagnant throughout the years, but it's pretty clear that almost everywhere else, interest and popularity has been decreasing ever since the Golden Age. Japan is only a small part of the entire global interest in this genre.
western developers have abandoned the genre
Hey, look! It seems like you agree with me, so not sure why we're arguing on this front.
2) When I say to look at the sales numbers across the Etrian Odyssey games - it's entirely relevant to the discussion. In your words, you think that revival is defined by re-surging interest in the genre. Well, guess what? Why don't you take a look at the sales numbers of the Etrian Odyssey games? Sales have been decreasing pretty steadily with every release. Whether you like it or not, sales have direct correlation with interest in a genre. How you don't understand that sales decreasing means that interest and popularity is fading completely baffles me.
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The first one is excellent. Let's see if the sequel lives up to it
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I been meaning to play the first one, I just cant game lately without a 360 controller, my wrists always tend to hurt to soon on M/KB lately sadly...wish it had controller support.
Where is my Steam Controller gabe goddamn it
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I remember being very hyped for Grimrock, preordered it and all (I"m glad I did, even if I never completed it). just recently started playing it again last week or so.
I think the next one looks nice, a bit out of my price range this time around especially when I have the first one to finish, unfortunately.
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Here
It looks kinda nice at some times, probably will pick it up when it's around $7.
But what surprises me the most is they said.
"Sequel to the game that revived the Dungeon Crawler genre"
Which is not true at all. I'm not sure if they've been oblivious to other dungeon crawlers, or if the developers think that Grimrock was praised so well that the other dungeon crawlers released before it where inferior and didn't matter.
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