217 Comments - Created by daki9 1 year ago
So why is everyone allowed to gift these here?
Edit: So I was informed it is NOT allowed. You are allowed to gift the bundle if it's purchased as a gift, but not the individual keys. So do this at your own risk.
Displaying 1 - 40 of 44 results.
I'm personally gifting them?
Actually, I think most people doesn't know/care, because it feels like a waste to buy the games and don't let anybody play them.
I'll also add that nobody here on Steamgifts is profiting from it, as bundled games don't count towards contributor value. So I see no harm.
(1 year ago*)
I think it would be so frustrating to know that millions of games are going to just sit and rot.
(1 year ago)
Yeah, we actually have paid for them, so they should come to use.
What's your point? I use that, but it has nothing to do sith the discussion here.
advertising his blog, probably
(11 months ago)
Are you joking man? I really can't believe your interpretation of "personal use", but I advice checking your native law.
I will personally sell them! No! I will make whole damn personal shop where I will personally sell thousands of copies!
Not that i'm against gifting them here, but you know you are not right and what you said is one big nonsense, right?
What? My national law is nonsense? "Personal use" allows ONLY your use in case of software, or additionally your family and closest friends in some other cases. I think it's pretty same in many countries.
Gifting a thing you've paid for is "personal use", selling it is a different thing.
You can gift whole bundle, but giving away keys and keeping DRM-free copies is totally different case. HIB's terms of service say about WHOLE bundle. You can't buy software and start sending everybody some files from it.
well actually since we get no contribution value and it's a shame if the game goes to waste unplayed for eternity why not gifting it to ppl who wants it? :)
I'm totally not against it. More free games are always nice to see. I just don't agree with interpretation.
And i did'nt know it wasn't allowed when i created my NightSky giveaway... Well, who cares? Bundled games doesn't count toward contributor value, and someone will be able to play those awesome games.
I mean how are they supposed to know where the keys come from? they can probably guess but no way to prove.
I always wondered the same thing.
Because you zombie with pink hat...
They aren't making a profit from giving them away here.
Well yes, but it might be a lost sale. Since you get the DRM free version and the person who you give the Steam key gets the Steam version. I assume people take part in giveaways for games they might actually buy if they don't win one here. They're selling one game, but two people get one.
But this is contract language. Where personal and business use clauses apply.
+1 They are trying to stop people from getting 1 drm free game and one steam game. I agree with that... just go spend $1 on the HB already people.
Well, DRM free game. If someone wanted, he could set up a torrent for downloading all the DRM-free version of all the games from all the bundle at once, and it would be unstoppable...
But since those bundles are pay-what-you-want, no one does it. :3
> but it might be a lost sale.
Pfrt, the lost sale logic of big companies has always been a little bit silly.
DRM free = tpb . se
(11 months ago*)
Well I remember Steam Gifts saying it's not allowed, if a Bundle maker prohibits it.
Guess they don't actually care. To be honest, I'd think it helps the charity more because people buy multiple copies. But they don't actually care about the charity, they're just doing it to, shall we say, farm contributor status.
Define "farm contributor status" when you're clearly giving away bundled games. Last time I checked your bundled contributions is limited by your non-bundled contribution. If you know a way to "farm" these bundles, by all means wise sage of sages, please share.
Not sure if really stupid, or just really stupid.
Bundle games cap out at $25 + 20% of non-bundled. Giving away 100 bundle games will keep you at $30 and never go up.
How is that farming?
Way to prove your point there! You really showed him!
Your comment is not even as stupider as you
You can specifically buy most bundles "as a gift" and you can give it to whoever you want. The key then becomes for the winners personal use only.
Yes, if they buy a bundle as a gift, but if you try to give away the separate keys, then you first have to activate the bundle on some email, and then the games belong to that emails owner and he's not allowed to gift them. At least that's how it seems to me. I'm just curious, I bought a bundle myself and then saw the text about "personal use."
Well one major issue - good luck determining if it came from a bundle or not - sure, you could say that, "The odds," blah, blah, blah - but no proof. Also, I'm not sure about anyone else, but I typically only get the bundles for one or two games or to get DLC for a game I already have - then I usually end up with one or more copies of some other game that I already have simply because it was part of the bundle. Since I've paid more than once (sometime two or even three times) for it with one time usually being full price, I see no harm in giving away keys I'll never use - and really, can you tell me I can't give away something I've purchased...? "Oh, that CD of Mechwarrior you have - you have to keep it for life, no gifting it to your friends or kids when you die..." - um, yeah, sure.
" and really, can you tell me I can't give away something I've purchased...?"
heh, steam does exactly that, how do you not know this and use steam?
not only does it prevent resale or gifting of anything you use because its tied to you forever, but when you buy a bundle that includes something you've already got that part of it gets wasted.(like when you use a key for civ pack while already having civ v it doesn't use up everything but the 5, or give a separate code it throws out the extra civ v)
Games purchased via Steam are tied to your account, which is very different than purchasing an inactive key - I figured I wouldn't have to explain that. On top of that pirates seem to have no problem giving away games where the source files originated from Steam - so, where there's a will... How do you not know this?
Well Docdra, if big corporations get their way that is exactly how it will be. I mean you already don't own most of your games it's just a 'license' to play it on your computer and/or console. (The console being another item that is just licensed for use in your home. Look it up it's scary shit.)
I know all about this, but fortunately there are politicians that recognize that fair use should still apply, and in fact I believe that a lot of the licenses allow you to make backup copies for your own personal use. However, this is a far cry from having a key that would allow you to get the software - you haven't agreed to the license for the software itself simply by possessing or purchasing the key; until you "redeem" the key and begin the installation of the software you aren't bound by any licensing agreement at all...
Here in Europe there are laws that tell us that keys and licenses should be tradeable/sellable, even used ones. So the question should be, why does HumbleBundle add these rules to their ToS while doing business in Europe(and thus breaking European laws).
Well Steam games still ain't. Although yeah I've read that they soon should be, but the problem here is that this way you don't gift it away, you just give the steam key to someone, but can still use the drm free version yourself.
Not using the DRM free versions is the responsibility of the user. But yeah, you can also upload the DRM free versions for anyone to use. That's something developers/publishers just have to live with by providing DRM free versions.
It's kinda like telling the same to indie developers whose games get pirated because they don't use DRM to try and stop it. The point is that pirating and this are both not allowed.
I'm not saying it's allowed, it's just something that happens. Take for example every game on GOG games. They all get shared on the various download sites. It's sad, but true and something the developers have to live with if they don't embrace some kind of DRM.
erm, the non-gog-versions of those games are shared too..., drm is being broken, doesn't matter what, pirates will always pirate
DRM will never stop pirating
Actually there is one form of DRM that could, it is known as OnLive.
This will fail.
And it will cause gamers to hate EA even more.
Because Onlive = EA?
Yea, it won't be long before someone figures out how to crack their software and play anything they have. Pirates will -always- figure out a way.
I'm not sure you really know what OnLive is. Cracking the OnLive client wouldn't magically force them to stream whatever game a pirate wants.
You can't use pirated games on Online DRM as steam, onlive, etc but there are a lot of private servers for the cracked versions of the games, GArena also. Games are still getting cracked anyway.
I had a support person tell me that if the giveaway specifically states that it's from the humble bundle, or something like that where there's actual proof of where it came from, they'll take down the giveaway if you report it. Other than that they just can't enforce that rule.
I don't think that's true, though, since the Humble Bundles are in the dropdown list of possible giveaways.
the bundles themselves, yes, but we're talking about individual keys from those bundles. It's always been ok to give the full bundle, but not individual keys.
thats the point of being able to buy as a gift, their tos is just that you can't break it up or open it yourself before gifting.
i guess in theory if you had keys for all the bundle games you could construct your own bundle.. so i guess that's why that is there.
Alright, thought so, so it's not allowed, makes sense. Thanks!
Saw this also, its a really gray area in all honesty...
i think they mean that u cannot resell his games
Good point. Probably this.
not just sales. they also meant you can't regift or break up the bundle.
the bundle belongs to the buyer(or in the case of buy as gift the one who opens the gift link)
the contents of the bundle are not to be redistributed.
you can't say buy hiba5 and keep beathazard while gifting dynamite jack according to their tos.
(because whatever you split and give away the one who opened the bundle still has the entire bundle(drm free can not be removed and steam isn't intended or sold as an extra key just an alternate way to use the same copy. give away the keys and you still have the games anyway(you'd still have dynamite jack after gifting the steam keys away)))
the thing about steamgift's side of it though is how are they supposed to tell/prove it unless you tell them you're doing it? its against sg rules to violate hib tos but they'd have to prove it and all keys look alike.
Since you cannot pick exactly what keys you want to buy, this is stupid: what if I already own one of the games in the bundle? What am I supposed to do with that one?
It annoys me when that happens. I have several keys for games that I already own and so cannot use. It would be nice to be able to give them away; but I think they figure that because the bundles are so cheap, there really isn't a reason to be able to do that. shrug It would still be nice.
I paid for the keys, I will do what I damn well please with them. I will give them out or trade them if I want. They got my money, what I do after that is none of their business.
If you can't abide by their TOS you should not have done business with them in the first place.
I have never read or agreed to any TOS on their site. I have put my name in, I have put in my e-mail, I have clicked on "pay with".
No where I have I ever clicked on anything that says "I agree with the TOS". It might say in the FAQ that you can't, but unless you do some sort of legal agreement with the site then you can do with the keys as you please.
Even if they did say it in their TOS, without having an "I agree" button their TOS is pretty much unenforceable. And even then, legally do you think it would be wise for them to spend thousands of dollars on lawyers to go people in many different countries who spends anywhere from 1 to 10 bucks for some games?
No it wouldn't be smart because not only would they loose all that money spend on lawyers, and they would more then likely be going after many kids, but it would drive so many people away from the site that they would only be making a fraction of what they do now.
Imagine if you bought something from a store, but before you bought it, you had to agree that only you would be the one to ever use that item and that you would never sell, trade or give the item away, ever and if you did, you would be sued. How long would you think that store would be open? Just because the game key is not a "physical" item, doesn't mean the people selling those keys should have any more legal right to tell you what you can do with it compared to some store like walmart or target.
Again though, I did not click on anything that says "I agree" with what ever. And even if I did, its pretty much unenforceable because of the cost to them in REALLY bad PR and lawyers to try to track me down and sue me. Just in lawyer fees, just one person would cost them 50,000 dollars for a trial (money they would never get back from suing someone). Bad PR would be 1000 times that or more.
you're taking this all wrong. Its not about whether they can or would enforce it, just seems rude to knowingly disregard their really simple and barely restrictive tos is all(you're right its more like a request than a binding rule, but). if you're going with the "I can do it cause you can't or won't stop me" argument you're going down a dark jungle law path that could permit just about anything lol.
the reason they have that people will tend to see the keys as extra and fine to distribute, but because the game is drm free you can play the same games you're giving away so it isn't really giving a game away. the steam key isn't meant to be extra copies just an alternate form for those that prefer it.
I can give you a copy of dungeon defenders on steam without actually losing the ability to continue playing it myself because I opened up the key to get it so have access to drm versions of all the games. so they consider(and ask you to consider as well) the bundle and all its contents as belonging to the individual who opened it and being for their own use.
they didn't sell me a copy drm free and a copy on steam, they sold me a game that can be used either drm free or through steam.
sure there isn't any practical reason to argue it but that isn't the point of the internet anyway.
Neither in response to you, nor anywhere else in this thread did I say that there was any legal claim Humble Bundle could make. Even if there was a legal claim it would be very difficult, if not impossible, to enforce and I think Humble Bundle knows this.
However, they do not like this situation and have kindly asked people to respect the spirit of their offer of multiple platform choices / back-ups. It is a nice feature they have offered, and it is not the only way that Humble Bundle has provided good service to me and others. For that, and because I try to be a respectful person in general, I don't think it is too much to ask to show some courtesy towards their humble (no pun intended) request.
Actually, a TOS is suppose to be a legally binding contract. People are saying its in the TOS that we agreed to, which would imply we agreed to a legal contract.
Seeing as how I have not clicked an "I agree" button anywhere on their site when buying stuff, I have not agreed to their TOS (aka a legally binding contract)
Is a tos a legally binding contract (google search)
And even IF I clicked "I agree" on a TOS I never read them because its all in legalese which for the majority is long and boring and mostly only lawyers understand it and I'm not hiring a lawyer to read every TOS I'm suppose to agree with to visit many websites then I would still do with the keys as I please.
I also view digital items I buy online no different then physical items I buy in a store (no matter what the stupid laws say). Once I pay my money for the item, its mine and I will use it or give it (or parts of it) to who ever I wish. Once I am done with it, if I don't want it anymore I will sell/trade/give it away to someone (if I can). Some companies think I should not be allowed to do this, I say screw them, they have my money if I don't need/want the item anymore why shouldn't I legally be able to give/sell/trade it to someone.
Also if I remember right, not everything in a TOS can be legally binding. There have been cases where websites have tried to enforce crap they put in their TOS but the courts toss it out. Heck just look at this one (Court Rules Website Terms of Service Agreement Completely Invalid) This one case actually is pretty close to what we are talking about now. People didn't click agree to the TOS so they can't be held to it.
I'm glad Humble Bundle is giving out keys for each game now, it actually means I will buy more stuff from them to get what I want and giveaway what I don't want.
And for the record, I only ever give out steam keys I have no interest in. I never give out the DRM Fee stuff or the Desura stuff.
Oh and just because they are doing a good thing for charity doesn't mean people should listen to what they are told to do with their TOS. If they don't want people giving out all the extra stuff they get, then they should only be giving out a single key for everything and not give out anything that can't be bound to a game account. But well, how long would they last then without giving out AAA titles all the time if all the games were tied to 1 single key.
They have your money, which you gave them while agreeing to never split up the bundle. Failing to uphold your side of the agreement forfeits all benefits on your side, without impacting any benefits paid to HB.
Where was it part of the agreement and not just buried on an FAQ page? And how do you propose Humble Bundle take away the keys? Steam will just laugh at them if they ask.
Good point. I just internalize anything I read on the FAQ as applying to all my dealings with any given entity.
I correct myself: You are only legally bound to things that you and HB agree that you have been shown, and agreed with by continuing with your purchase. You are not legally required to follow anything that has not been presented to you during the transaction.
You paid a minimal amount of money for some great games and you can't seriously abide to their terms of service?
As I have said, I have never agreed to any TOS, and even if I did, they would loose more money with just bad PR (and lawyer fees) then they have ever made with all the humblebundles so far.
Yeah! Fuck that charity partner and their stupid polite request! YOU CAN'T TELL ME WHAT TO DO, PEOPLE WHO OFFER ME MULTIPLE GAMES FOR AS LITTLE AS A PENNY.
The lawyers who wrote the TOS thought it was a wise clause. The Humble guys don't give a flying fsck if Mr Joe Average gives away his extra keys.
Actually, Humble used to give away whole bundles as a bonus, and nowadays, repeats from their own bundles. So they're perfectly aware there's a high chance a sizeable portion of the customer base will have duplicates to give away. Not only they don't care, they are likely doing it on purpose.
And what is your source for this highly convenient speculation?
probably wolfire's post on piracy. from what i remember it basically says "you're a dick and a cheapass to not spare even a penny to legally get your own bundle(they say this nicely though, and with more sarcasm than bluntness). I'm sure you have an excuse that feels sufficient to you however I don't understand why you feel the need to steal pwyw bundles with no min. I can't stop you...well actually we can but we refuse to be like that and punish everybody else...so we've decided we don't care. So if you're going to pirate at least don't cost us money by using our servers, go to bittorent instead of sharing our download links directly"
and can be extrapolated to mean if they don't care about piracy then they definitely wouldn't care if you gave away subdivided bits of copies you actually bought.
I've heard of that post before (probably even read the original at some point), but it doesn't really reflect the claims of the OP. If anything it would seem to refute his claim that the Humble Bundle guys don't care. They obviously DO care but just feel helpless to stop it.
Basically they asked nicely for people to follow a rather reasonable policy, and many people are giving them the middle finger. When I have business dealings with cool people I tend to grow quite friendly with them and I am happy to honor their small, reasonable requests.
Some people here (not you TheGannet) only know how to take.
Humble makes tons of sales, they eclipse the other bundles by thousands of copies. A few hundred copies being given away for free on SG is not going to hurt them.
Besides, giving away something I bought is a personal use; at least to me.
This...also I am pretty sure they just don't want us selling those keys...thats it I think....think.
Personal use qualifies almost everything outside of personal financial gain. Like the party beer law. You are allowed to giveaway free beer to party full of a 100 people but as soon as you charge 1 cent it becomes illegal.
Makes that hundredthousands lol. They were the first and all others are well, cheap rip-offs most of the time.
Yup. Even the recent Mojam outsold IndieGala: Colossus and BeMine: Anniversary combined!
And it was only little indiejam games!
Sad but true.
Why is it sad? 100% of the funds from that went to charity.
Just because you don't think something will harm them does not mean you get to decide to shrug your shoulders at the rules they stipulate.
I don't think I am breaking their rules though. To me, giving away items I've purchased is a personal use.
If I were to hoard keys and try to re-sell them for cash/profit then I would see that as commercial (ie. non-personal) use.
Not trying to get into fight though, this is just how I interpret the rules.
some people actually buy them to sell at other places like ebay and say, all these games with a value of over $150 for just $10
I may be out of the loop, but it was a bit of a gray area last time I checked. Yes, we do want to keep a good standing with Humble Bundle and other bundle sites, so we should delete them if we reasonably think it's a bundle key, right? Yeah, well, that would just go into exactly the reason we started allowing bundle keys in the first place. Too much work, too few people, too much wasted effort to go through everyone and find out if it was a bundle copy or not. So last I checked, officially, no. Practically, there's nothing we can do about it.
Or they could just remove those games from the list completely, and allow only creation of giveaways for the full bundles.
Then people who had gifts wouldn't be able to give them away. We used to only allow gifts, but far too many people would just submit keys anyway and hardly anyone rats them out since they're getting a free game either way.
Humble Bundle has never taken action against anyone and even gave multiple keys of the same game in a bundle which defies their own rule.
If you're concerned, start taking names and report them to Humble Bundle...
At best, Humble Bundle could only ban someone from buying a future bundle. The result is:
A. They get less money OR
B. A buyer just buys them from an alternate e-mail address.
And that's even assuming Humble can figure out who they are. They are not Steam or Steamgifts and do not have access to either's database. (And all the games I've given away, none from Humble Bundles, the keys have NEVER passed through SteamGifts. They get e-mailed to the person I gift. That person reports he got the gift, and SG is happy.)
As Peroxide pointed out, this is a complete non-option. Since you're a newbie, I don't think you could even comprehend the amount of bullshit the moderators went through trying to enforce the "no bundle keys" rule without impacting other users who did nothing wrong. In the end, we surrendered, said "fuck it" and just allowed them with a change to how contribution value was calculated.
"Yes, we do want to keep a good standing with Humble Bundle and other bundle sites,"
Does SG even do work with bundle sites anymore except indieroyale sometimes?
I don't recall any humble bundle dev giveaways? And indie gala used to do it often but they've made their own shitty site and don't gift here anymore.
We don't directly work with them (that I know of) but that's no reason to purposefully sour relations, preventing future cooperation.
What about to add a notice about this problem? So I think SteamGifs would have fewer giveaways from individual games from this bundle. In the current context, almost everybody think that gifting individual key from Humble Bundle is allowed. For notice, I mean something in homepage, as sticky thread or Steam group message don't help enough.
We're bad asses, that's why.
1) Someone purchased Humble Bundle -> their personal use to do with what they like, just not for resale/trading/profit.
2) Charity gets money -> Happy happy joy joy!
3) Someone gets game -> Fun fun fun!
4) Everyone is happy -> Except for grumpy old you?
I'll agree with most of the others that there's nothing wrong with it, and even add to it:
If Humble is this dead set on people not even giving away keys, then repeating games from previous bundles is a jerk move. A new customer ends up getting more value for the pack than a return customer.
Plus, why did they make it possible to give away extra keys from moving from one key for the bundle to individual game keys?
I assume that means the newest one has separate keys? Haven't bought it yet.
Yes, the current one does have separate keys.
Good to know. Buying it mostly for the android games. Own most of them on steam already.
It's been this way for a while.
Yes and they could change it whenever they like... Just because it's been this way in past bundles means nothing about future bundles.
They even protect their ability to do so in the ToS as I've learned in researching for my wall of text posted below :P
Moving from one key to many keys IS a strange move, you are right. However, I do not see how it is a "jerk move" to repeat games. Obviously as a person, like you, that owns previous bundles (Humble Bundles and other bundles), I do not need many of the games. However, I do understand that they need to try to balance appealing to old customers (who may or may not buy another bundle) and new customers (or old customers that just missed the bundle in question). So, I do not really blame them for including repeats, though it does make me have little interest in the bundle as a whole.
If I buy a bundle that only comes with one key, and the only games I can benefit from are still worth more to me than the price I paid, I still come out of the situation very happy.
It isn't about how much we pay, it's about how much it's worth to us. Repeating games in bundles is -not- a jerk move, and I gree with ceildric on that.
Oh who cares about what they say.
Gift them away.
That's a rather dishonorable attitude.
Humble Bundle: "We will sell you these games at a considerable discount with the understanding that they will be for personal use."
You: Fuck Humble Bundle.
Eh, gifting is personal use,imo.
That's a different argument than the one that the OP made. I was addressing his cavalier attitude.
As for gifting being personal use, while I can see some merit in that argument, I tend to disagree. Because only the Steam key is being gifted (and not exclusive access to the DRM-free download and possible Desura key) the single license which the user bought has now become two or three. I am sure that preventing this was the main intent of the rule, and since gifting a Steam key by itself does in fact cause this eventuality, then it can be said to violate the spirit of the rule.
But if you already own the game, you will never use the DRM-free download or Desura key.
That's your choice. You could use them if you wanted to. Multiple DRM options are for your convenience. People that exploit this are why companies like EA think the way they do.
If I already have one legally allowed backup copy, I will never use this second 'backup copy' I 'accidentally' made. I can't give away this unneeded copy.
Eh, thing is, I did giveaway extras from Humble Bundles before, because I already had them. If I already had a license prior to buying the bundle, is it wrong then? I believe most people do the same, they give away what they already had. Effectively, in most cases, there is no "license duplication"
An unenforced law is merely a suggestion, like drinking under the legal age in the remote countryside, speed limits in the middle of nowhere, or the legality of pot on the west coast USA.
As an aside, in 1999 Spain RAISED the age of consent to 13. You learn some strange things when looking up legal drinking ages around the world.
In Wisconsin "Those under the age of 21 may be served alcohol if they are with a parent, guardian, or spouse who is of legal drinking age."
Found that one out a couple days ago.
That tends to be "common law" in most states. Kind of like consensual sex between minors. Illegal by text, but accepted in practice.
Suddenly, the "don't ask, don't tell" military clause comes to mind...
It's rather common to have a clause where if the age discrepancy between the persons is small then it's not illegal. Of course, what consistutes 'small' and when to apply it seems pretty much completely arbitrary.
If I buy a cheeseburger and it comes with a pickle on it, I THROW OUT THE DAMN PICKLE. I don't bring the sandwich back to the counter and ask that the pickle get its own take-home box. On the other hand, I am free to give that pickle to anyone who wants it.
What I shouldn't do, and often can't legally do, is buy 10 sandwiches at 25% regular price with my employee discount and give these away to my friends who are benefitting from my misuse of my discount. The store is losing 75% of the cost of each of these sandwiches, which may have been purchased at regular price by friends who were hungry for a cheeseburger a few minutes ago.
If there is no policy against splitting up a bundle, then you are free to do so. Since there is, there is no gray area here. It is not allowed. But HB will have a hell of a time enforcing this since they're giving one key per product.
To make another not-100%-accurate food comparison, think of going to a restaurant. You order bottomless french fries (chips to 99% of all non-USA countries) and a drink, while your friend just orders a drink. You both then proceed to consume plate after plate of 'free' fries. Should this be legal?
"You both then proceed to consume plate after plate of 'free' fries"
That is a bad comparison, we do not get unlimited keys.
My friend gets free access to something he did not pay for, therefore the shop didn't get paid their due. I did say that it was an imperfect comparison. The only accurate comparison I can come up with is to compare breaking up a bundle to breaking up a bundle.
I do imagine there are people who keep using their DRM-free copies and give away the Steam key. Maybe HB should start giving single keys again?
I go to McDonald's and order a Big Mac combo. I eat the Big Mac and drink the Coke and my friend eats the fries. McDonald's proceeds to not care at all. Much better comparison.
Fairly decent comparison, except that McDonalds does not have a policy against meal sharing.
And if they did, I'd laugh at them and ignore them.
I bought a pack of games for X price. It's not all you can eat. It's I bought this much. To tell someone to let an extra go to waste rather than give it away for free is silly.
Especially since they did not put this term into any kind of agreement when you buy the game. It's hidden in an FAQ page.
If McDonalds had such a policy, we would see more people bringing their meals home. Or just going to Burger King, Wendy's (current favorite), or any common sit-down restaurant.
Except you ate inside, and it was one of the ones with the soda dispenser out with the customers not behind the counter.
instead of the fries you gave your friend the soda which he drank, but you also refilled the cup to get your own soda before you left
(and maybe you don't drink it your friend had his soda and you never gave the cup or machine a second thought, but you still could, so giving soda doesn't remove soda from you which is why the sticky note on the side of the cup said that it was for your personal use only and not to be split up or shared. (the choice was meant to be grape or rootbeer, not that you could drink rootbeer and give grape to your friend(they only gave you one cup). soda is a single game, say dynamite jack. grape soda was a steamkey for dynamite jack. rootbeer is drm free dynamite jack, you get both but normally you only use one, and you don't miss the grape you gave away.)
(mcdonalds may not care if you were able to split the bundle in a way that removed the cup from your possession(or like giving your friend the fries) but you can't so its honorsystem(which doesn't work on faceless crowds overall) that you won't use the cup to get the rootbeer too and so I doubt the manager would like to see 2 people share one cup to get 2 full orders of soda, ....but he also isn't jumping over the counter to kick your ass over 13cents of soda because he specifically doesn't want to be that guy)))
That analogy only works if my friend and I are sharing one game (one item in the combo, the soda). We cannot do this because it's one key that goes on my Steam or his. It's just trying to redirect it to an example of an all you can eat restaurant when it's not the same thing.
yeah, not saying you are or would, just that there isn't any way to avoid the opportunity to do that, which is probably why the faq says not to break up bundles, whoever opens the bundle to get the keys has drm free games. Try as you may to give the steam keys away there isn't any way to remove access to the drm free versions, not even one to voluntarily delete them. you just have to ignore them for games you gift.
The only reason I give away Steam keys is because I already have the game anyway.
Given that, is it really a big deal that I could but do not access the DRM free version of the game?
but the question was why aren't you supposed to, why its in the faq/tos, why steamgifts technically doesn't allow it ect. not does it make you a monster to give games.
so that in mind that faq entry wasn't so much written for you just like how the law against shooting your neighbor wasn't written for anybody who wouldn't do it if the law wasn't there. its in their terms because somebody could do that, some people will for that reason, and they want to make it clear they don't condone it(even if they won't actually expend any energy on enforcing it)
the problem is that even if you don't use the drm free version after gifting steam keys(and so you keep the game at its intended number of copies) you're basically on the honor system and while you're good with that people as a group can't be trusted on an honor system. so they said that you shouldn't/ which makes it still pretty much honorsystem but it looks better for them(and I guess they can probably ban you or something if you do something dumb like buy 1000 for .01 each and sell them at 75% full price or whatever).
bundles aren't supposed to be split because they can't really be split. no matter how it is divided the one who opened the bundle still has all of its contents. doesn't mean they'd enforce it, doesn't mean everybody who splits the bundle is going to make use of that to basically pirate games, it just means that they saw that possibility and so said not to do it probably to cover themselves for when somebody does.
you don't give games with the intention of continuing to use the drm free version, some people do. and because it isn't sold as getting the steam and drm free versions but rather as the option for the purchaser to use steam if he prefers they had to put that line in their tos, and because of that steamgifts put that line in theirs about splitting bundles who's tos says not to. not that steamgifts can do anything about it if you do cause how do they prove it, just more as a gesture.
the only reason I even replied to your post was to clarify the analogy not to accuse you. and yeah, it doesn't really matter ;)
Some restaurants forbid sharing of meals for this reason, especially if it is some kind of special (like a soup and sandwich lunch special).
Indeed they do, a local Mongolian barbecue restaurant will charge you for two bowls if two people try to share one.
More on topic though (not directed at you ceildric, just don't want to post twice), I think if HB doesn't want people splitting up the keys, they should do one key for all the games in a bundle. That's the only way they can stop it.
Thats when I release the rat into the back of the kitchen.....right? ;-D
You paid for the food, you should be able to do what the hell you want with it, that actually angers me greatly. They have to be losing business by doing this, almost half the people I know split meals in restaurants because well lets face it, times are hard. Any lace that puts a rule up like that can shove it.
I have to say, that actually really bothered me too, especially considering the portion sizes. A medium bowl is easily shared by two adults. The solution is simple, just get it to go and split it at home where they can't control it.
Yeah, I am not trying to be a dick by saying this but honestly I would not even give the place my business, I rather go to a restaurant with even slightly worse food that treats me like a customer should be treated.
I can give a great example: So I have been ordering from this pizza place for about 4-5 years now, one day they send me a spinach pie which I usually get, so I open the pie and it smells rotten, I taste it and it taste like it was BAD. I always got great food here, so I call back and tell them the issue, they tell me that they are going to come get the pie and give me my money back right, I say "Cant I just get another pie" then they say "No, Have a nice life". So that ends them getting more years of my business, they didn't even compensate the tip money. So I wasted an hour ordering a pie and was out 4 bucks.
I tend to stay away from businesses with shitty service.
Oh I understand. I had already been to the place a few times before I realized that was their policy, and it's somewhere I rarely eat anymore. Tons of choices for eating out around here, so it's definitely their loss, not mine.
That pizza place is a good example of how not to handle unhappy customers, especially long-time patrons. I would be sure to avoid anywhere that treated me like that.
You should just ask for no pickles. What a waste of food.
games are food!! O_O
I gift duplicate copies away, they should pleased that I am not selling them, because that is my damn right, no single companies ToS can't stand a unions law.
To bring up a point made in replies to previous comments, despite what some people say, you DO NOT agree with Humble Bundle not to redistribute the games when you buy them. It's not a terms of service. It's a clause buried in their FAQ that likely most never read and thus never agreed to.
It isn't a matter of never reading it, it's a matter of being asked if you agree to abide by the rules found within the FAQ.
Choosing to not read a list of rules, then performing an action that confirms you agree with those rules, still binds you to those rules. Did HB show people these rules on the path to transaction completion? Displaying it on the same page as the keys and nowhere sooner doesn't count.
I'd have to buy a new bundle to make sure (and I really don't want to buy this bundle), but I don't recall even having to press a checkbox of "I have read and understand the terms" or whatever. Just entered my e-mail address, and how much I was paying and I was sent to Paypal. Afterwards, I got the keys.
feel free to try and enforce it... its not gonna work though
Maybe you could teach by example gifting a non-bundle game. May I suggest Skyrim?. Lots of people want it here
No begging please.
How can I beg for a game I already have?
You're gonna sell it obviously! ;-P
Dammit, Hillary, keep it quiet.
I'm trying to run a business here!!!
So, I've just read through the entirety of Humble Bundle's ToS. The ToS clearly differentiates "Service", which is the Humble Bundle service including order and download pages, and "Product", which is the games being sold. Unless I missed something, there is no clause in the ToS WHATSOEVER that denies redistribution of the Product. The closest it comes is in the "Your Information" paragraph, giving the term "personal, non-commercial use". It DOES prohibit secondary access to your unique download page under the "Service" term, as well as prohibiting saving hard copies of the site itself, as defined by "Streaming" in the terms.
The FAQ states, under the header "Can I sell/give away my keys?", "Each purchase is intended for use by one individual. Please read our Terms of Service.". To start, an FAQ is not a legally binding contract as the ToS is disputed to be. You are not bound to any terms in an FAQ unless the ToS explicitly states so. Continuing, the use of the word "intended" rather than something as direct as "strictly" muddies enforcement, as does the point back to the ToS which only strictly disallows commercial use (sale) or secondary access of the download page. Not locking down use terminology leads to my next point.
If you want to go in terms of United States law, there's a little thing called the "first-sale doctrine" within copyright law. Quoted from Wikipedia:
"The first-sale doctrine creates a basic exception to the copyright holder's distribution right. Once the work is lawfully sold or even transferred gratuitously, the copyright owner's interest in the material object in which the copyrighted work is embodied is exhausted. The owner of the material object can then dispose of it as he sees fit. Thus, one who buys a copy of a book is entitled to resell it, rent it, give it away, or destroy it. However, the owner of the copy of the book will not be able to make new copies of the book because the first-sale doctrine does not limit copyright owner's reproduction right."
In terms of Humble Bundle, when you make a purchase, you receive up to 5 different copies of any given Product: Steam, Windows, Linux, Mac, Android. By the first-sale doctrine the different installers and keys would constitute the "material object" and thus you are allowed to give away any of these copies, though in doing so you surrender control and thus protection to make copies for personal use under copyright law, just as if you had sold a book you had bought. One could go so far as to designate the individual installers/keys for a single game as parts of a single whole, and thus transferring one part transfers them all, but that makes them no less transferable. Constantly giving away installers would fall under the copyright clause that defines 10 or more copies as constituting commercial use (even if the copies are not sold), but giving away (or reselling) one copy of an installer or key and ceasing use of that purchase fall under the first-sale doctrine.
By this I conclude the following:
Is gifting Humble Bundle keys in the spirit of the bundle? No.
Is it legal (in some regions) to give away anything purchased from Humble Bundle? Yes.
tl;dr - In the US you can give away or resell anything from Humble Bundle legally one time, then you forfeit your ownership of the purchase.
SIDENOTE EDIT: The above mentioned first-sale clause is one of the things keeping corrupt publishers from shutting down the used game industry. Just food for thought.
I am downright amazed by the sheer number of people who don't understand the difference between personal use and business use.
Here's the difference: Personal use means you don't make a profit from it or use it for work or business purposes. Business use means it is used to make a profit or used for work. It actually makes more sense when you go into the other side and rules companies have about personal use of work provided equipment and what you can do while on company time. A good example is free virus scan software. Those are free for personal use. You cannot install them on a computer that is used for work. The reasoning here is a bit different, as the companies making those programs do not wish to be responsible if the free version causes an issue with a business and that clause prevents them from being sued if a company ignores that and uses it anyhow.
Another example is internet service. Most of the time the internet service you buy for your home is for consumers and they have a separate type for business. Businesses pay more, but also get guarantees about the service being up and how fast it will be fixed if it doesn't work because the lack of net means a loss of profit for most businesses and the ISP doesn't want to get sued for it. They have a clause in their terms stating that the consumer service is for personal use only and due to that they are not responsible for lost profits if it is used for business purposes.
All HB is saying here is that you cannot profit from these keys or the games themselves. They cannot be sold or traded, but also some people have businesses where they do charge for people to use computers on a LAN to play with friends. They are not saying that you cannot give the keys to someone else as long as no money is being made (trading would be a grey area here, but likely not allowed since you gain something from it). They are not saying that only the person who buys the keys can make use of them. They are only saying that you cannot make a profit from others using them.
Pretty much this. As I mentioned above, giving away items I legally bought is a personal use of the product.
yeah, agree. legally gifting is probably personal use since you aren't making a profit or getting anything in return
but the thing in the argument(and the reason for the rule(and the thread)) is it isn't actually set up in a way that allows it to be given away once opened, you can try but you'll always still have the games. you have a steam key not as a 2nd game but as an alternate client for the drm free version and you just use whichever you prefer(thats how its intended to be anyway)
it isn't sold as 2 copies of the 5 games(total 10) its sold as the 5 games with an alternate version to be used by preference(total 5)
and while you could give the steam key you can't remove or transfer access to the drm free version. so you could give away 5 games and still have 5 games. the way it is intended to be viewed by hib it isn't any different than running off 2 copies of drm free to give one away(which is definitely against tos).
you can give an entire intact gift code, you cannot gift a steam key from an opened humble bundle. you can try but the game doesn't go anywhere its more like it just copies which you can't do under first sale(personal use or no doesn't even enter into it) and isn't gifting.
Like I just stated in my reply, "intended" means squat legally. All that is is a word used to remove Humble Bundle's responsibility for non-intended usage.
well yeah, but this is the internet, we're not actually arguing about legal consequences or anything important(and if we were hib isn't going to be going after anybody even if it were,they've said as much before even), its just arguing about what it really means and is rather than any real world application.
And mostly what it means is that people can give away the keys and that is fine. If you personally do not feel it is right, that's fine. But no one making those giveaways for games is wrong for doing so.
really it doesn't bother me one way or the other(mostly just pick the side that looks fun), just for the sake of arguing on the internet. I think the reason they say its not for sharing is they assume you could share the same games. if they were really worried about it they'd have put it somewhere more solid than hidden in the faq(most people gifting here don't use the drm free and regard the steam keys as extra they probably had no interest in the keys they gift or already have the game so don't touch the drm free either, its just that they could if they wanted to)
but it drifted a bit off topic, so for the op's question: how could sg tell if you did it when all keys look alike? and if you could tell with work why would it be steamgift spending time and mods to enforce somebody else's rules for them? Technically its against sg rules, but theres no way to prove any of the people gifting bundle games actually got them from a bundle so unless you put in the description that its a hib key they just leave it alone. So its more that they do it anyway than that they're allowed to do it.
To make it clear, I disagree with anyone buying one bundle and playing the DRM-Free copies while giving away the Steam keys. That is abuse in my eyes (same as ripping a movie/CD onto your computer and then giving away the disk).
What I am referring to is giving away Steam keys of games you already own on Steam from previous purchases.
oh, yeah, not saying specifically that you or anybody else is doing something wrong, just that imo thats probably the reason the faq says not to split them. cause how would hib know you own them? not that hib would go after people anyway...
I admit, my knowledge of it is a bit more in-depth than most people's because I cross those lines often. One of the joys of working from home, your home becomes your workplace and your stuff becomes for personal and business use.
Yeah, one advantage is that I can write off a percentage of utility costs on my taxes and don't have to commute (a lifesaver because my car won't start right now and I can't afford to fix it). But if I get consumer grade internet, it's at my own risk. If the service has an outage, my ISP is not responsible for my losses to my paycheck because I cannot work without internet. That is because there is a clause in the agreement I signed stating that the service is intended for personal use only. Since my ISP is awesome and rarely has outages, this isn't really a problem and my savings is worth the risk.
The main reason for that sort of a clause is usually to remove responsibility. Obviously HB doesn't wish to be dealing with having to support things not working in the case of something resold. Even the line in the FAQ about them being intended for use only by the person who purchased it isn't binding. "Intended" means squat. That just means they are not responsible for uses outside of the intended use, not that such uses are truly forbidden.
All HB is saying is this:
"Can I sell/give away my keys?". "Each purchase is intended for use by one individual. Please read our Terms of Service."
And like I already stated, that means very little. All it does is remove HB's responsibility for losses or problems encountered due to unintended uses and they do not have to support such uses.
More than likely, they don't want people giving away or sharing accounts to give people the keys or DRM free downloads. That is a support nightmare if it happens because proving who the real owner is can be a pain in the butt.
And what about profit called contributor status?
From bundle games? Hardly a real issue with the cap imo.
But it is a profit. Ergo it isn't personal use.
Personal use would be giving key on forums.
Eh, I don't think 'contributor status' would count as an income of any kind so that's not really a valid form of "profit".
You are thinking "benefit", or perhaps "status", which is different. Gaining a higher standing/status in a community by donating things you have purchased for actual money is not profiting in any way...
(And please don't bother countering with "but you can win more!" The chances of winning a game with $30 or less contributor value in a public giveaway is usually around 0.1%)
I know, I'm a monster devoid of feelings.
You JERK! How dare you...
Another Nightsky: WT5G8-MBZ4N-W6MY?
I got it!!! Thank you!
I feel like typing random numbers and letters...
Wait? My random letters and numbers were a key?
I am shocked.
Shocked and appalled.
it's saying it's invalid
Seems like I'm less lucky in writing random keys...
The fundamental issue with a lot of DRM (including steam and humble bundle keys/gifts) is that as a consumer I am very limited to what I can do with a digital product.
If I purchase something physical, I can pretty much do what I want with it. I can gift it, I can re-sell it, I can let someone borrow it, etc.
However everything I buy in digital format, even if I pay the same price as a physical retail copy I am very limited to what I can do. I’m basically renting the service to the product, instead of actually owning anything.
"If I purchase something physical, I can pretty much do what I want with it. I can gift it, I can re-sell it, I can let someone borrow it, etc."
This has not been true for a very, very long time. Most games feature some form of DRM, from the code books of old, requiring the disk in the drive (and protecting it from most ripping programs), CD keys, and more. Don't even get me started on stuff like SecuROM. That applies to console games, maybe, but DRM had been a thing even for physical copies of PC games for some time. In fact these days you're a great deal more likely to find DRM free games digitally than physically; take the Humble Bundle, for instance, which provides DRM-free downloads along with the Steam key.
Most rules like that also apply to physical content, the only difference is one is harder to enforce than the other. Steam can revoke games at any time, but it's much less likely for someone to barge into yout home and take your game because you lent it to someone else.
Digital is the way forward for large companies because it grants them control over everything they sell a lot easier.
It's not ideal but we consumers do prefer things easy, no matter what negative comes with it.
I respect this wish of the Humble Bundle and Indie Royale by not giving away these keys and not entering suspected giveaways, but I don't think it's a crime against humanity to give them away. At most it's a minor transgression which will result in no more than a couple of hundred years in Purgatory.
"All keys are for your personal use only." - bla bla bla
make 1 key then, lol
Thanks for the warning, that said, It makes me feel like getting some spare bundles and gifting them somehow...
I suspect that they don't actually mind, but that the legal provisions have to be put into place to place in order to protect the copyright status of the material.
Here we go again :D
Just drop it people.
The fact that they include this in the TOS doesn't mean it goes against the law. For instance, we are supposed to be able to sell these kind of things and it doesn't actually matters what they say.
My choosing to give one of my keys to another person IS a personal use and I don't really give a damn what they say to the contrary.
This sort of clause is meant to prevent resale, anyway.
I'd honestly be interested to know if Humble Bundle has ever complained to SteamGifts about this. After all, when a HB is released, the amount of gifting of the games in question skyrockets so it's not hard to tell what's going on.
If they haven't, it should be pretty safe to assume this is a non-issue, and they're only concerned about reselling keys. Especially since if giving was such a huge problem, separating the keys into individual keys rather than one key for the bundle as a whole remains a strange move.
Personal use includes gifting, at least in Sweden. So for me, it's totally okay, really, because I do follow the rules when I'm gifting HiB-games.
That's in Swedish law is it?
Ihave't found the paragraph myself, but yes it is, according to people who know tha laws. I'll check it up myself when I'm at a computer.
"People who know the laws"?
People studying and working with the lay. Lawyer, law students and so.
cant you tell that knows the law, i mean look at the pic.
Haha, brought a smile to my face.
In all entries in the Swedish laws concerning "personal use", it said "For personal use or to be given for personal use", although the latter part sometimes included "...given to someone closely akin for personal use"
While I do understand the reasoning behind it, there's just....
I mean, I already own Dungeon Defenders and all the DLC (well, all the ones I want). So if I were to buy the Android 5 bundle, what would I do with my copy of DD?
Keep it as a souvenir to hang on your wall in your chamber