The EU series has always been so alluring to me. But it has always been allure that wears off after a one-night stand.

I am, for the most part, a casual gamer. Many years ago when I didn't have children, and had more time and money, I spent a good amount of time playing the baseball equivalent of EU, OOTP. I loved it. I like to micromanage and plan. I like to see results and then tinker to alter them. I like the sting of an untimely misfortune and the challenge of overcoming it.

And the idea of grand strategy and political maneuvering within the historical context (sort of) continues to be appealing to me. But every EU game so far I've tried to get in to has had a painfully steep learning curve, pretty terrible tutorials/walkthroughs outside of the forum (which is crawling with erudite versions of DOTA players - read: no patience and no clarity of language for newbies).

My point/question (finally): Anyone involved with EU IV beta testing have a take on whether this version will be at least a little bit more approachable for a new player? It may be that I'm just not a good fit for the series and I need to just learn that. But I keep wanting to like it. I like the idea of it, but have never been able to get over the hump.

Thoughts? Tirades? Lashings? :)

11 years ago*

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While I can't speak to whether or not EUIV will be any easier to get into, I will encourage you to try to put in the extra effort required to learn some Paradox grand strategy games. Yes the learning curve is high and the in-game tutorials are seriously lacking, but they are some of the most addictive and rewarding games around. There are plenty of fan made tutorials on youtube that can really help.

I highly recommend Crusader Kings II to start off with. It's one of the easier to learn (but still very complex) Paradox titles and it's insanely enjoyable even when you're failing miserably. Plus it's on sale today for 75% off. Also, EUIV is going to use a modified version of the CKII engine/interface so learning the basics of CKII now will probably help you quite a bit if you want to move over to EUIV when it comes out.

11 years ago
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Thank you. I had already read an article about EUIV possibly being more like CKII in its "guts", and read enough bout CKII that I may do exactly as you say.

11 years ago
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I know you might not have that much time to spare what with kids and life but I highly recommend finding a video of a session to watch on youtube or something. Watching someone else play it is a very easy way to learn how to play a game. If I may give a recommendation, I love quill18 on youtube because not only does he play these types of games, he does a marvelous job commentating and explaining things. He makes learning games so much smoother. Here is his playlist of Europa Universalis IV Preview.

11 years ago
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Thank you! I don't have a ton of time, but I don't mind watching a tutorial in lieu of playing. And if there's something that can communicate better than what I've run into thus far, then I'm all ears. Much appreciated!

11 years ago
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It seems like newbie friendliness is something the PDS wants to improve with every release, but that somehow always ends up with a low priority.

Anyway, I don't know what the situation is with EUIV, but I can recommend starting your journey with Europa Universalis Rome, playing as something other than a republic. I found it a good introduction to PDS style Grand Strategy. Alternatively, you could go with Crusader Kings. In any case, once you get used to one of the games, you'll have a vastly easier time with all the others.

Also, for an easier to learn, if not as deep Grand Strategy title, I can recommend Knights of Honor.

11 years ago
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Unfortunately, these days "approachable for a new player" means console-dumbed-down. It's hard to design a game that is both easy to learn, and complex in its mechanics, and most devs won't even try.

EU is worth learning, though. It's not really that hard as it appears. CK series is probably way harder to understand and master than EU, for it is way simpler to manage provinces (fewer building and managing options) and diplomacy (it's just about relations with your "peers", i.e. other kings) in EU. You should give CK2 a try (it's on offer on Steam currently), you will be more than prepared for EU when it's out. Also, CK1 is in IG bundle for some 5$, if $20 seems too much.

11 years ago
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In the couple of their latest releases they made an extra effort to provide new users with a quality tutorial, and the interface in their games also improved vastly in the later releases (more informative, easier to navigate) and from the dev diaries it seems they wanna make EU IV even more approachable to the new player.

11 years ago
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Good. I don't mind complexity at all. I sometimes relish it. But I have always been turned off in life by complicated/complex activities coupled with specialized language and disdainful barriers to entry. I spend a long time in motorsports, and some folks could be that way there, too. Happy to hear tutorials are getting better. I did read a CKII review that mentioned good mouseovers, etc. That was an encouraging departure from previous titles.

Y'all are talking me into trying again, damn you. :)

11 years ago
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From what I could tell, the EU series, or at least the last installment, is less complicated than say Crusader Knights of Hearts of Iron. Idk about Victoria 2.

And, one thing that I find to be very important when dealing with games that have a steep is your perspective. Don't approach the game with that attitude mr. :P Instead try to experiment or even cheat. I have only finished EU3 about 3 times, due to lack of time.

If the first was more or less touch and go, the my second playthrough, with cheats, was very revealing; and it also gives you some wiggle room, so as not to quit>reload at every turn.In my last playthrough I got a small state, Wallachia, formed Romania and conquered Europe :D.

Also Paradox's forum is full of nice people, mostly history buffs. They should be able to help.

11 years ago
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^ This. When in doubt, go to Paradox forums.

Victoria 2 is probably the most complicated of the set, but still less hard to learn than Vicky 1 :D

11 years ago
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My experience at the Paradox forums has not been as pleasant as y'all's.

The last time I was there, they had disabled the search function (except through google) and folks were less than patient with someone not really even understanding what to search for sometimes.

I'll give it another go with the new game, perhaps, since even old curmudgeons are still dealing with at least a new engine, it sounds like.

11 years ago
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From what I can tell it's the same engine used in CK2. Not sure it's exactly the same. On that note, I prefer the old EU3 engine/map. It gives me the sense of a general overlooking a world map.

Also EU4 will bring some new features to the franchise, and a rework of the trade system. If you get EUIV, you'll be on the same level as everyone else in that department. :)

11 years ago
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AFAIK it's using an improved/advanced version of CK2 engine (3.5 compared to 3.0).

11 years ago
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Hehm yea the search function being disabled was a big downer on the forums. But dunno, I hang around there a lot, newcomers asking questions usually get a welcoming reception. We all had to open a 'how the hell does this work' thread at a point :)

11 years ago
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I only own EU3-V2-AHD-CK2, but even then I can clearly see how the games became easier over time, not from any changes to the gameplay itself, but by giving the games an useable UI and making information more easily available and understandable by the player.

I'm not a beta tester, but EUIV looks way easier to get into than the previous EUIII. Gone are the monthly/yearly income split; the slider technology system full of "empty" techs, which was also tied to your treasury income; they're abandoning the complex-looking policy slider system, replacing it with a larger national ideas system; and making trade something you can actually care about, instead of just sending merchants to the highest-value CoT around.

(I know A House Divided is an expansion, but it's a huge improvement over vanilla V2, and HoD probably is over AHD too, I still need to get it).

11 years ago
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HoD is a huge improvement, but only to a specific points, but overall it wasn't huge change unlike AHD.

11 years ago
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Thank you. That sounds very promising.

Trying to figure out if it's worth grabbing CK2 for ten bucks here in the next hour, and wondering if it'll go on sale at a similar rate in the Summer Sale. I'd like to play it, but have a few others that are higher up on my list.

EUIV officially on my wishlist now, though.

Very curious and somewhat excited to see if it might finally be for a gamer like me.

11 years ago
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CK2 is worth every penny, but if you can buy on Amazon, I'd advise waiting - they had a couple great deals on Paradox games so far (like $10 for CK2 + all dlc + 3 or 4 more games with their respective dlcs), which will, I imagine, probably be repeated in summer sales.

11 years ago
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One thing about games from Paradox I noticed...it might not be easy to get into, but if you learn to play just one game, every other that comes after it is much easier.

EDIT: Still cant get into Victoria II, I can play HOI, EU, CK2 or March of Eagles, but damn... Victoria is like a nut made of stone to me.

11 years ago
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Very true. Have the similar problem as you - though I get Vicky but have no clue about HOI :D

11 years ago
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What's so hard about HOI? :P

All you need to do right is set your order of battle, I keep my army on auto (I find it quite realistic, I'm ordering the General Staff not individual divisions!) while having corps, army or army group detached when needed for a breakthrough or some special high value operation.

11 years ago
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Man, I'm trying hard to want to buy this, but Paradox is killing me.

I've bought probably 3-4 games of theirs in the past, and have a forum ID somewhere. But for ease of use (and lack of PW memory), I created a new user ID tonight to ask a few questions about tutorials with the game (Thanks Sinovera for the video link - watched all of them and looks promising - like that guy's style, too).

I guess there is now a 5-day waiting period before I can post anything. In what other universe does a business tell potential clients they have to wait five days in order to learn more about their product?

And I've seen several threads (I can search!) about tutorials forthcoming, and that's good. However, there isn't much there from the devs about what that's going to entail.

Still feeling like I'm trying to sneak my way into an exclusive, invite-only party. :)

11 years ago
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From playing EU2 and EU3, the only thing I can recommend to help cut the learning curve is to point you towards the wikis. They're fantastic games that you can spend hundreds of hours on, but the point of grand strategy isn't to baby you and point you in a direction, it's to come up with your own goals and roll with the punches that follow.

11 years ago
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My own goals is fine. But with previous titles, I was lost in a sea of buttons and sliders, with no idea of mechanics or general direction.

I don't need to be babied. I need to be taught. And it's amazing to me that a company can put up so many boundaries to entry for new players, and that long-time users are so flippant about defending a badly communicated tutorial/help system. It's almost as if folks enjoy their exclusive club and don't want new players not to have to suffer.

I'd liken it to what I know. If you had never driven a car, I could hand you a race car on a race track and tell you "I'm not going to baby you. It's one of the most fun things you can do in life. Learn it on your own and you'll be rewarded with hundreds of hours of joy."

That statement is also true. But for most folks, it might take them a day to even learn how to turn on the car...maybe. From there, you'll spend hours or days trying to drive the car without stalling it. You'll be looking at the expanse of asphalt in front of you and going, "Wow, these guys are real dicks for sitting me in this car and telling me next to nothing."

A week later, you might be able to get around the track.

A month later, you might be able to control the car without running it off the circuit.

Anyway, you get my point. I would never do that to a customer. I never babied any of my students, either. But I did teach them as much as I could, and tailored my teachings to their learning style as much as possible. It was hard work to get them up to speed as quickly and safely as possible. There were materials to read ahead of time, but at no point did I send them away to watch videos or read a wiki. Those might be supplemental, but they weren't core tools.

I suppose I could've told them, "This is auto racing. It isn't easy. You won't make money. You're too old to be competitive (unless they were 11). The rest of us here get it, but it might not be for you. You probably don't belong here. You're not worth wasting my time and energy on."

Anyway, thanks for the response. I'm remembering why I dropped EU III years ago.

On a more positive note, I'm looking forward to seeing how good the tutorials will be for EU IV. Not sure if there will be a demo. That'll go a long way to see if Paradox has figured out how to educate their customers. It's a core business tenet. Hopefully they've learned and their customer base and games will blossom and attract an even wider audience.

11 years ago
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Bought CKII. Seems interesting thus far. Tutorial exists, so that's good. But is rife with bugs, errors, and omissions. Seriously, Paradox, get your ish together. Hire a freelance content editor (or whatever the software equivalent is).

Still, I am learning slowly. We'll see how this goes. I'm all ears for suggested starting rulers after I get through the tutorial.

11 years ago
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Huh? I have 90+ hours of gameplay and don't remember any kind of noteworthy bug. What bugs did you encounter?

Imo Poland/Hungary are the countries that are easiest for the new guy (not too small or too big, not weaker than any potential enemies).

11 years ago
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In the tutorial, there are buttons that are referenced that are not actually on the screen at the time of reference, so there's no way to know exactly when/where they might appear in game.

Later, in the military tutorial, after you disembark your army from the fleet, the tutorial just stops, the clock keeps running and there are no further prompts to additional tutorials or further portions of the tutorial you're in. No idea if that particular tutorial is done, if I've not hit the right buttons (I followed instructions, insofar that I understood them), or if it's simply a bug/error on Paradox's part. No way for a new player to tell.

11 years ago
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Really? Lol

Well I'm familiar with the interface, so I skipped the tutorial altogether. But from previous experiences, it's probable that tutorial worked at v1.00 and one of the later patches screwed things up (features got changed, added etc).

But most of it is either intuitive or can be found out via tooltip later on. Just fire up a game with a random country, take it slow and use the trial and error approach :)

11 years ago
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My favorite part in searching the Paradox forums is long-time player response to newbs having this same issue. Basically? "You're doing it wrong."

Lol. The more things change...

11 years ago
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Yes, the tutorials are a bit lacking, but the games themselves aren't that hard, its more of a keep trying and learn with errors, kinda game.

If you can learn how to play ck2, then you can make the jump to EU3 Easily enough, the hardest part when jumping from ck2 to eu3 is managing the budget, that damn budget.

11 years ago
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Key to budget management is to lock sliders you don't want to get moved (right click on them). Never had a budgeting problem...well except when I had income that was insufficient for my ambitions ;)

11 years ago
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Ireland is a pretty nice place to start your first game.

You're on an island, so there's a very low number of neighbours; The neighbours you have are pretty weak, especially if you manage to grab one province soon after the start (mercenaries absolutely kill in small realm wars!); You start with just one or two provinces, so you can get used to the UI and the general flow of the game before having to deal with the mess that is a realm full of unsatisfied vassals and you don't have too much happening at once; You are independent!; Finally unifying Ireland is a nice little goal to pursuit for the start of your first game.

Don't get discouraged by the interface, it's by far the hardest part of the game and if you manage to stay on it, you're in for some very rewarding gameplay.

And if you have questions just ask in here if you don't want to go to paradoxplaza.

11 years ago
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Well, if you want more simplified Paradox game to start with, you may try with Knights of Honor. The game is old and more combat-oriented(with real-time battles like in Total War), but the basics of paradoxian diplomacy, economy and mechanics are there. However, it's limited to only medieval Europe and there are no historical events IIRC.

And I agree that EU3 tutorial was quite bad. I learned to play from this tutorial series.

11 years ago
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You can find some really good guides that are a lot more understandable and comprehensive than the tutorials on the Paradox forums.

11 years ago
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Closed 11 years ago by EephusSwift.