Capitalization is a waste of time
Everything about this thread, yes. People who don't "understand" what the big deal about catcalling is obviously has never felt the jolt of fear that comes from a group of frat guys sitting in an open-top Jeep howling at you as you wait for the light to change on the crosswalk to show them your tits. Sexual violence is still sexual violence, even if it's distributed on a verbal level.
Anyway, thank you for the thread.
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some people are missing the part in their brains that makes them feel empathy for others.
seems we can't do anything, but at least i tried. ^^
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Many men i see start to act like animals when nice woman enters room... it's like in this stereo typical jokes "They start to think with their ..."
From this moment they are more unfocused than me with ADHD... :P
AND yes i think it's a nogo to "catcall" or what terms people ever want to use...
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"2) You shouldn't use pepper spray on everyone, that's for crazy feminists only. Was there any danger? No. "
Better spray than being prey...
Every woman should do so if a man follows her... don't ask, spray...!
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I think someone with heart attack or people that need help don't follow you on a creepy way... there's always an unwanted situation were you could be wrong, but your own safty first in such situations...
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i think people that have seen or experienced such things will tend more to my guideline than people that never had trouble...
with 20+years i wasnt that much for weapons etc... now with 30+ years you won't see me on street with at least a knife in the pocket...
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hands? no... my opponent has to go down instant, i dont will take any risk... if someone attacks me he should be prepared to die and i dont call ambulance etc after it, i wont help him after he went down... i will get my ass fast enough away from the scene...
and i avoid group of people because your chance are very low if you have no activ training in combat situations... and i dont talk about some karate lessons...^^
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This thread made me realize i live in a perfect little bubble...aside from the deep recession
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sorry, I laughed a bit at that, as I though prayer would do nothing - then I came to my senses and realised it was probably meant in the statement as prey - sounded much better the second time in my head :) (hey we better call those police, as they are all crazy feminists it seems).
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The edited pray to prey looks much better - but not as funny - darn it :) - I see so many people using pepper spray though - but then I realised some people buy that bear spray to carry around (that has got to make a mess)
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i would use spray against animals too because the anti person sprays are very weak for some subjects... the spray you get in germany has weak effect on me and im still able to fight etc... tested
but most people here buy anti animal spray because in "selfdefense" no judge will go against you in such cases... :)
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in germany it's when you get attacked and then act in defense... when you kill the attacker it's possible that the judge say that it wasn't necessary and you go to jail... so if someone puches you and you gun him down then it's not self-defense anymore... ^^
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hmm, didn't know that the laws for this are so messed up in russia... :/
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In the UK we used to be given a talk whereby, if you were a girl walking alone in a dangerous area, you put your keys in your closed fist, with a key poking through - so if someone attacks you from behind you jab then in the face/eyes with your keys - sounds kinda barbaric now I think about it - but that was very very many years ago - now they probably just tell you to avoid those areas - rather than deal with the problem in the area itself (can't beat a bit of blame and avoidance culture these days after all can we?)
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we need more of these talks... people think they were born into a safe world, you grew up with no harm if not unlucky etc... but look back what humans did 1000 years before us... they acted like fucking animals we would say... :)
WE ARE THESE FUCKING ANIMALS...! :D
evolution is not so fast that the human 1000 years ago is so different from us... we just rised culture to an extrem level...
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indeed - I studied alot of the early Keltoi and later the Viking tribes - and they may have seemed barbaric, but they seemed to have had some standards that could be construed as being better thatn some peoples attitudes today - but that just makes me sound like an old person railing against everything :P
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*old smart person
thanks for the good conversation, some stuff and Pocket Kingom incomming... :3
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Heh, I used to hold my keys like that when walking to my car after work at night (had to park a bit far). Never knew people were given a talk about it though lol.
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Be careful about that. The person who is sprayed could easily file assault charges against them. Never attack someone unless you're sure it's necessary.
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spray and run... a woman shouldnt wait if a man who follows here has good attentions...
and as a man you shouldnt follow woman... if there's one infront of me in dark street i let her go a while so she doesn't think i follow her etc... then i go on... :)
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Same with beating up people in the street using kickbox or whatever. I don't think you can justify violence and physically injuring someone by saying he was catcalling you, it will be hard to prove your claims as well..
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1 ) Wow.
2 ) She doesnt use it on everyone, just this asshole.
3 ) Yes. So gamers in your opinion cant behave like this?
We play games here. Yeah, and we also go out and do shit normal humans do.
many guys dont have a clue what behaviour like that can do to a woman. Guys like you apparently.
Stop being an ass.
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Yeah - I stopped doing multiplayer games because I could not stand the vile language and vitreol coming out of peoples mouths over team speak and the such - I don't need to be told that they will find me and rape me, because they got fragged by a girl and their ego is all hurt about it - I was taught that such language should never come out of someones mouth whilst enjoying a hobby/leisure pursuit. Made me sad :( - but it was only "locker room talk" so that makes it all okay !!! yeah right, see ya morals :)
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shouldn't have to - why should I hide who I am to absolve someone elses behaviour? - I wouldn't dream of behaving like that, so why do they? (almost like they lose all morals when sitting behind a computer)
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true enough :) if only they were taught to have some self restraint whilst growing up - anyway, you are keeping me from working (much as I appreciate it sometimes - I have to go and do some) :P
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I was called SadisticChicken and I still got abuse online.
Sometimes playing competitive it's very useful to talk in game... As soon as I talk a lot of the times I get a ton of abuse.
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"Fuck you bitch you're a fat ugly cunt"
"Suck my cock"
"You dumb slut you can't play"
I play overwatch and I've have Mei ice wall me in spawn so I can't play. I can't leave as it is a competitive game. Yes of course I mute. I've had people avoid healing me at all and told me to shut the fuck up. I know the purposely didn't because one time they mistakingly healed me and said "shit the slut got healed"
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You would assume that it's mainly children acting like that but unfortunately, it's not. There are so many videos on Youtube of dudes that are definitely not children anymore insulting girl gamers and the only reason being that they're a girl. There are way too many male gamers who are hostile towards female gamers and it's something I will never understand. Also, a girl who plays games shouldn't have to hide the fact that she's a girl just to be accepted and respected in the game she's playing.
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It's no fun playing with toxic players. If you're looking to play with some decent (read polite, respectful) people, let me know. I sent you a friend invite on steam if you're interested.
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Thank you very much! I'll accept you when I get home, travelling for 5 hours ;-;
Word of warning. Sometimes I do like solo queuing so please don't take offence. I would love to play with you though, you seem like a very friendly person :3
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it is real life though - when they are screaming down a mic that they will slide a kniife up your anus for fragging them if they get you - how is that not happening in real life - it is not like the game is telling me that (which would not be real life) a real person is - it's sick :P and messed up :)
anyway - that was a long time ago - too toxic for me - I have to go and do some dying for the shop now - chat later :)
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1 - irrelevant how i look
2 - i don't use it on everyone, only on idiots that don't leave me alone.
3 - based on comments like yours, yes, i think people here need some education.
and again, don't blame the victim.
i don't need to train 10 hours per day to become a 90kg kickboxer, i want to live in peace.
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You are naive and idealistic to the point that you're patronising and conscending
This isn't a boogeyman bud, it's real life, not for you maybe, but for half the population it is
1 in 6 men is a rapist, that isn't even counting the ones that are sexual predators who molest and sexually harass
Sitting there and going "find some peace stop worryingdont be scared~" is belittling to real world issues. Meditating isn't going to stop a rapist, yoga isn't going to stop it either, what will is prevention and planning. Don't tell us how to deal with something you clearly know nothing about
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Apologies messed that one up
It's 1 in 16 men are rapists, 1 in 3 would rape if they though they could get away with it
1 in 3 women and 1 in 6 men are sexually assaulted
Stats with further links
American based stats
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That's a lot to read.
Although I focused on that point:
1 in 3 (30-35%) of men would rape if they knew they’d get away with it.
Because I found it either ridiculous or terrifying if it's true.
Source wasn't clear about studies that gave this outcome so I followed the link and found this.
72-81% of cases in which a male rapes a female college student, the female is intoxicated (Lisak & Miller, 2002; Mohler-Kuo, et al., 2004).
The highest sexual assault risk situation for college women is after they become voluntarily intoxicated (Kilpatrick, et al., 2007).
I drink alcohol - but I was never drunk to the point where I wasn't controlling myself. Although I was once in situation when drunk female colegue was in mood for something :) What if I was drunk to that point too? Would it change into a rape if one of us had second thoughts next day?
If we deal with "voluntarily intoxication" - we are operating in grey area.
In a study by the U.S. Centers for Disease Control of 5,000 college students at over 100 colleges, 4% of men answered "yes" to the question "In your lifetime have you been forced to submit to sexual intercourse against your will?" (2)
I took part in some studies during college. Most of my classmates treated it as joke. According to final results half of people in my college eat drugs for breakfast.
Also 5k students is not really good representative sample.
For me those stats looks biased at first sight. On the other hand I am biased because I feel offended by them xD
Anyway - making conclusions from partial data is bad idea.
I will read some articles mentioned in references later.
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In all honesty, in these cases the woman is the only individual drunk and/or has been drugged. If someone is intoxicated and you are sober, it's a no, even if they're horny. I've had friends who wanted to car surf when they were drunk and also stick an entire pole up their ass, drunk peoples answers should be considered in regards to their personal safety
Women go to clubs and parties in numbers for a reason, it's so that there's at least one trustworthy person who's gonna make sure we go home, safe and by ourselves
It's a sample, they aren't going to collect to data the world over, that's just not gonna happen, by the time it's compiled it would just be considered out of date and thus not relevent
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I'm not expecting them to collect data from whole world. Especially that some regions (read countries with certain religion) treat women as something below men and that would change outcome drastically.
But I would expect that they would collect data from more representative group. I mean - this group represents about idk 10% of males?
I put that in as quote:
The highest sexual assault risk situation for college women is after they become voluntarily intoxicated
has been drugged =/= voluntarily intoxicated
Although, yeah agree that if someone sober uses that state it's something bad. On the other hand - each time I was going to party - at the end I was the only one sober..
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That "1 in 3 would rape if they thought they could get away with it." sounded like BS and I looked into it.
I was right, they actually manipulated the results by flawed interpretation of their data (coding of any response other than 1 (in a 1 to 5 scale) as affirmative).
The participants in question were asked about their likelihood of engaging in such behaviors in a hypothetical world of no consequence "if nobody would ever know and there wouldn't be any consequences".
Edwards et al (2014) asked their 86 male participants to fill out part of the "attraction to sexual aggression" scale (Malamuth, 1989). On this scale, participants are asked to indicate, from 1 to 5, how likely they would be to engage in a variety of behaviors, with a "1" corresponding to "not likely at all", while "5" corresponds to "very likely".
What the researchers did, then, was code any response other than a "1" as an affirmative; the statistical equivalent of saying that 2 is closer to 5 than it is to 1. In other words, the question was, "Would you rape a woman if you could get away with it", and the answers were, effectively, "No, Yes, Yes, Yes, or Yes". Making the matter even worse is that all that participants were answering both questions. This means they saw a question asking about "rape" and another question about "forcing a woman to do something she didn't want to".To put these figures in better context, we could consider the results reported by Malamuth (1989). In response to the "Would you rape if you wouldn't get caught" question, 74% of men indicated "1" and 14% indicated a "2", meaning a full 88% of them fell below the midpoint of the scale; by contrast, only 7% fell above the midpoint, with about 5% indicating a "4" and 2% indicating a "5". Of course, reporting that "1-in-3 men would rape" if they could get away with it is much different than saying "less than 1-in-10 probably would".
Source :https://www.psychologytoday.com/blog/pop-psych/201601/exaggerating-statistics-about-rape
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Buddy I was asked to give stats and I gave stats that's all, I'm not about to put the same effort into an online debate that I would for graduating thesis project
I don't give a damn how low the percentage is, anything above 0% is too much of a percent
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If you don't give a damn about how accurate those stats from unreliable sources are, even when they sound so wrong without further investigation, you might better not give those at all. No data is better than wrong stats making men look like crazy rapist animals...
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Jc i didn't say I didn't give a damn, obviously I do since I'm sitting arguing a moot point for no reason. I'm saying I'm not going to be cross checking multiple sources for hours and hours on end for your personal benefit
Men make themselves look like crazy rapist animals by catcalling, harassing and stalking women. You can't blame statistical evidence of sexual violence for reporting based on the facts given to them. You wanna get pissy at somebody then go get pissy at the people who you believe didn't answer the questions correctly
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I guess you haven't read neither my post nor the source I linked. It doesn't say anything about not answering the questions correctly.
If those "facts" you are talking about are based on misinterpreted data, they are nothing more than bullshit.
Interpreting the data correctly and reporting that "less than 1-in-10 probably would rape" or like in the article you linked "1-in-3 men would rape" if they could get away with it are two completely different results.
Some men like to see women as sex objects while some women like to see men as crazy rapist predators. They are free to do so, I won't try to change it not like it is easy to change a misbelief. Also excuse me for my poor command of English. It is not my native language, I am not pissed at you, I am just bad at sounding polite.
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anything above 0% is too much of a percent
+1 on that...
But.
Presenting false data can be counterproductive. Some people might be like:
"this data is fake... crazy feminist create fake problem... she put that dress so she wanted that".
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The data aint fake tho. That was the best source I could find that compiled a good set of data from reliable sources, as well as a lot of it
Also getting voluntarily intoxicated doesn't mean you can't be drugged. It gets slipped in pretty easily because soda and bubbles disguise the fizzing. And getting drunk doesn't usually mean you wanna get laid, it means you wanna get drunk and have a good time,, can't do that if you're scared someone's gonna take advantage of you in that state. A lot of dudes go to parties specifically to prey on drunk girls
Anyway, I didn't mean to get into a debate/convo thing here cause this is going way off the initial topic
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I've actually never seen people catcalling stranger women on the street. Maybe among friends.
You were right to spray them, otherwise they wouldn't understand. Anyway, the way you dress does impact on some some people's behaviour. I limit myself at looking and maybe make some comments with my friends, but none of us never molested anyone. And I repeat, I've never seen it done. Maybe I live in a happy place.
I found a funny picture a while back, it said something like: When women go around in semi-transparent leggings and their boobs almost out, if you stare at them, you are a maniac. If you go around with your schlong out, women stare at you and you are the maniac. Hah!
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I've been catcalled and harassed wearing sweatpants, a gross hoodie, unwashed hair and 3 day old makeup, didn't make a lick of difference
It isn't about staring bud, it's about people grabbing them and making sexual comments at them
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I assume your comment was directed to me. Thanks for the blacklist by the way.
Maybe you didn't read and understand the whole second line of my comment. I said she was right.
There are some maniacs (I repeat once again, I have yet to see one) out there and they will catcall you anyway you are dressed, if they want to. But some clothes will draw more attention, everybody's attention, including maniacs'.
If you enter a bank with a bazooka, guards are likely to stop you, even if you only wanted to light a cigaret with it.
The picture thing was only a funny way to think that most of the times people think only men are maniacs. There are also many female maniacs, I've met some of those (not catcalling but stalking), but maybe people don't talk about it because nobody actually cares, you can make a good laugh with friends at best.
Then, I don't really know how it is, I've never received any compliments (nor do I expect them, so I'm fine), let alone catcalls. I don't justify catcalls, but I see them as a little price to pay (only if you're unlucky enough to meet one of those maniacs) for all the other benefits good-looking people have.
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You're welcome. Sorry, tired me is an ass
And basically I'm saying that attractiveness doesn't come into it. Someone going past you at 100km/h can't tell if ur attractive or not. They just know your vaguely female and thus they scream, that was what I was saying with my example
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Well if they are passing at 100km/h they are definitely not grabbing you or making sexual comments. They are not even maniacs, they are just some stupid guys who think they are making something funny. Just don't care about them, they don't even deserve attention.
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The point is that it does cause a feeling of unease. It's well and good to say not to care about them, but you can't just not care. It makes you highly aware of yourself
Not to mention the fact that a lot of them will u turn so they can follow you up the street. In an setting it just makes you feel unsafe and puts you on alert
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Oh well if they u turn there may be a problem. Keep your spray at hand in that case! And your knees ready for some ball-smashing.
I've never seen anybody u turn to follow somebody (outside movies) o.o
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it's p common, especially if you're alone. if you're in a group, or just with another guy then that tends to make you feel a lot better. you kinda just gotta be ready to scream just in case, so it's a stressful experience to say the least ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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I only call my cat when it's time to eat.
hit me with a hammer
On a serious note, sorry you have to deal with that. I think if that happened to me I would probably pepper spray them all. That video where the guy dressed up to experience it was pretty crazy.
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Makes me think of the (multiple) times I've seen people yelling obscenities at random strangers in public, often for no reason at all. When out in public, no matter if you're a woman or man, there's a good chance you'll experience harassment at some point. Though of course the type of harassment tends to be different for women and men.
...never go out late at night in a college town. Drunk people love to harass others.
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I agree whole-heartedly with everything that you said - but shouldn't this be in off-topic ?
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I believe as long as it has giveaways, it can go in General.
Otherwise, someone needs to have a long talk with Jatan. ;)
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ah possibly true (not in my mind, but possibly true nonetheless) - missed that in the wall of text :) - allthough I think we should all have long talks with Jatan - just to see what happens :P
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One of the few things I like about my city is that this sort of behaviour is very rare, even among drunks. That said I have seen, and stopped some guys from following women home from pubs/clubs, and would consider that worse. But as an unaffected, I can't really say which is worse for those that are.
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If you wouldn't say it to your mother it's probably not a compliment
Edit: Basically, if it's something you can see yourself saying to a women in your life that you have no sexual interest in like your mum/sister/etc, then you shouldn't be saying it to a complete stranger because it isn't an innocent compliment, it's sexually charged and unwanted
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Would you think telling your mum that she has nice tits or that you'd like to eat her out is a compliment?
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What does this have to do with your initial statement?
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Where exactly have you gotten confused here dude?
Initial statement is a rule of thumb
Anything sexual, related to her doing something sexual with you, related to her body, is not something you would say to your mum as a compliment, so why would it be a compliment to another women who has never met you before
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I'm not really confused. I was just curious if you could stand behind your initial statement if you gave it a couple of seconds of consideration. From the looks of your "rule of thumb" comment, it's not.
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Why would I not stand behind it? It's a basic rule of thumb I give to men and it works well
Compliments = What you would say to your mum
Harassment =/= Shit you'd never say to your mum
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It's a basic rule of thumb I give to men and it works well
Putting aside my amazement at this, how do you know it works well?
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I meant more it works well at transferring meaning, sorry, didn't word that perfectly
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heh, this actually made it even more confusing for me but I'm ok with being confused at the moment :)
I'm guessing I just have a hard time imagining that this could be useful advice but I'm also guessing it's a good thing because it probably means it's not intended for me.
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To cut to the chase here : They're saying your rule of thumb is faulty.
There are plenty of things you could say to compliment a lover in a private moment that you wouldn't say to your mother. Hell there are probably things you would say to compliment your closest friends that you wouldn't say to your mother, if you had the same humor that I have.
I mean to be fair in the context of complimenting strangers I suppose it is a good rule of thumb, but here on the internet we end up swimming in these little sort of sloganised rule of thumb lines, and they often miss the mark because of oversights like I mentioned above. You probably know the kind of one-liners I'm talking about, usually seen most often in places like family facebook posts from aunts and the like. Stuff like : "If they ever make you cry, it wasn't really love". Things that are mostly just catchy but actually have big holes in them.
Nitpicky? Maybe. Once you read a few hundred of them you start to get a bit gravelly about them, heh. \:3/
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Why would you be saying things that you'd say in private to a lover to a complete stranger in a public setting. Once you start getting into stable relationships with people who are your partners and friends is when your dynamic works itself out
There are lots of things I say to my friends and family that I wouldn't scream at complete strangers, because they're jokes, typically inside ones that make no sense when explained and no one else really gets unless they were there
I'm not going to wander up to a complete stranger and talk to them like I would my best friend, cause that's just creepy and uncomfortable to everyone
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Never said you would.
It was your rule of thumb that drew the distinction of what is or isn't a compliment, I was simply trying to re-articulate what Spiff was saying. The fault lays in the assumption that compliment propriety only operates on a scale of lewdness. Again, it's sound on the surface but is mostly just a catchy way of framing the situation. As you acknowledged, it's more complex than that, with familiarity being the killer factor. Simple one-liners are easy to remember but usually turn into a case of "Wait, what?" after a few minutes. Y'know, like the example in my previous post. Or like "You wouldn't download a car! Piracy is theft!".
As far as I can tell, Spiff was just saying your one-liner fell apart on that kind of level.
I mean as far as the subject itself goes it seems we're in agreement :U
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That's just it though
If you wouldn't be saying something with sexual intentions towards your mother (hopefully), then you shouldn't be saying it towards a complete stranger because it's sexual harassment, not a compliment
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Hnnnng. But my point is that your original one-liner doesn't constrain it to lewdness, and talks of compliments of any kind.
If you would be so kind, please imagine my avatar performing a classic kermit-flail maneuver.
Seeing as we're going around in circles about that fine-print, I'll just say that I agree with your overarching point and that being a lewdboy with people you don't know is a turbo no-no. Yes. \:3/
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(but for real, I agree with your sentiment. Sorry if my sleep deprived attitude seemed like some kind of patronising or mocking. Just trying to keep in good humor)
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nope its all cool bud
I get your point but just the rule is basically a safe bet that something you wouldn't say to your mum isn't okay to a stranger so ¯_(ツ)_/¯
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Love means never having to say you're sorry...
Thinking about "your mum" whenever you talk to another woman sounds kinda sick to me :D
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You guys read way too much into the simplest things sometimes.
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It's true that I overthink things, but here I just wanted to cut in on this dance before it spiraled out of control. Weird misunderstandings like this usually end up spinning out of control at some point, and as a paying member of the audience I reserve my right to call the referee a blind buttmonkey!
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I find it's generally better to overthink things than the opposite
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Hmm, I like that.
I wouldn't be surprised what some people might say to their mothers, though.
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I'm not one to kinkshame but I'd probably kinkshame that
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"How's my old soggy mumser feeling today? Been farting a lot lately?"
She needs to smile more, and sometimes showing up at her house randomly and saying the dumbest of stuff is the best way to get a disbelieving laugh. Then again I compliment my ex by telling her that she has a massive pair of pendulous stainless steel balls, and taunt my brother by declaring that he has a round bum and the chinniest chin.
Familiarity and humor ruins the otherwise nice rule of thumb.
Though I suppose that cuts to the issue of catcalling. Open and unashamed compliments can be nice if handled tactfully, but it's a minefield given the pressures of life, tempers, tone, and the dreaded mismatch of humor. What sounds like a compliment and a dare to brighten a strangers day in one persons head, can be a disrespectful jab to someone else, and that can vary with something as small as the mood of the day, or simply how dumb you are with words. Catcalling is an issue because in it's base form it just treats people as objects and openly declares your ogling of them, which is pretty much just an insult wrapped in a shitty lewd creeper flavour. When you run the risk of making someone feel like trash or like they're being challenged or harassed, it should overrule even wanting to take that risk unless you had some common social thread to actually open dialogue. Is it bad that it almost makes me want pick-up artists to make a comeback with deliberately cheesy lines? At least the humor and intent was clearer there, and you can at least share a laugh when they inevitably crash and burn. Part of me wants to believe in the good intentions of people, but it can't erase the obvious factor that some people are just straight up assholes who want to call attention to their idiocy. Gruh.
...
Ah fuck, you made me drop a big post again.
Screw you Tzaar. >:C
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I usually require a 1,000 word reply in the form of a rhyming ditty.
But given it's nearly halloween, I will let you pass if you answer my riddle :
At dawn I walk on four legs,
At noon I walk on two,
At dusk I walk on three legs,
What am I?
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I'm afraid the answer was "tantra".
As you have failed to answer my riddle correctly, I rescind my offer of 24 hours of horrible, sloppy, mind-blowing lewd acts.
Sorry, thems the breaks. A goblin needs to have standards.
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I want whatever you're having. It's clearly better than what I'm drinking, haha.
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Yeaaaah but then you realise the side-effects include making big forum posts about nothing, and you start to rethink your life choices. \:3/
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I disagree. As an example, I wouldn't tell my mother that she is intelligent, because she is not. Does that means I now can't compliment intelligent girls by telling them I admire their intelligence?
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that's a it's a bit simplified xD
you could call your mother "hi dear" and it would sound 100% inappropriate in the street.
but i get the whole idea you're trying to transmit. ^^
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True, but it works well as a sort of mental barrier of 'if this women were my mother/sister/etc would it be okay for me to say this?'
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you could call your mother "hi dear" and it would sound 100% inappropriate in the street.
But would you consider it harassment or catcalling?
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Don't know whether it's a cultural thing or not but I've never seen it in Scotland or England. Actually most blokes in England are very friendly, asking if I need help with my luggage and sorts.
However, I'm fully aware it does happen and I'm glad you made this. Some men have clearly been educated poorly and it reflects on their attitude and morals. No woman like yourself should be afraid to go out into the world and live without having to result in using things like pepper spray.
When I go out on nights out I do bring a rape alarm and I have been in situations where I have or could possibly need to use it. I can't imagine what it's like to experience it in the day time.
Thank you for the thread and your insight.
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So you say English and Scottish men are more friendly gentlemen? That's racist :P
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Even as this is a joke, she's not claiming that English and Scottish men are of a specific race
Also, you forgot the exclamation mark after racist :P
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So you say this is a bad as in a bad cake, not tasty enough joke?
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Nah, I don't really have an opinion on the quality of the joke. For various reasons, I just felt I had to point out that it's not racist, at least if we're not subscribing to the notion that everything is racist.
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I know that it's not racism, that's why there is a guy with his tongue out at the end of message like this :P
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Oh no, it's just that SadisticKitten is totally correct and your joke smells bad.
Yours sincerely,
~a definitely more friendly english gentleman.
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That's why I said cultural ;) We can all agree everyone has difference cultures. I remember there was a guy in my college class from Iraq and he was very unaware of "my personal bubble" as in was very close for comfort would be very touchy as in a lot of hugging, stroking of the arms etc.
I told him I was in a relationship and he very quickly explained he was trying to differentiate the culture here. I understood it wasn't a form of flirting and reassured him it was fine and if make him aware in the future if it was too much. Wow talk about tangent but yes... cultures are different. I swear I'm not racist xD
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I never done anything like that (maybe I'm also way to shy to just talk to some women), but I need to ask my wife if she gets catcalled to see if this is an issue here
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Given your public SG persona I wasn't really expecting this but, as someone who thinks about girl friends, sisters and mothers, I cannot help but agree with most of your post. Please don't pepper spray anyone if you can help it, though.
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- If you don't want to get catcalled, dress appropriately!
2: I dress as I please. It's my body, not someone else's.
We are not living in a perfect world. You can leave car or home open. Who will be to blame ?
You can go down the street with hand full of money, nobody will tell you what to do, right ?
You can drink alcohol with strangers if you want, right ?
And there is a common sense.
Just like driving car. Dont know how its called in english but you are learned from beginning to not trust other drivers. They can make mistake. The same goes to pedestrians. You have to anticipate.
have some music
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KyKBf0sHIic
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Its just life.
Everybody should be equal, and tell, are they ? Not theoretically.
Do you have kids ? Are you/will you letting them comeback home whenever they want ? For example 6am back from party or a club ? If no, why ? Lets say they are 10-12yo.
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what does that have to do with the thread?
you seem to be implying that a woman clothings might make it ok for them to be harassed.
does not matter what a woman wears, DO NOT harass her or assault her!
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"It's just life"
...and your examples are just terrible.
Grown adults daring to walk outside and function as normal people in broad daylight are very different from unattended minors visiting a nightclub after midnight. Please give pause for thought before you fire off the next one.
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Why nightclub ?
Just bar or party in friends house.
I write it again, we are not living in a perfect world.
Why are ppl killing eachother ?
Do what you want, act as you please but the world is as it is now.
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Why nightclub? Because you yourself specified that. I was replying to something you said.
It seems the language barrier is too strong.
Nothing can be gained from this. I'm bowing out ;P
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Nobody is disputing that certain choices lead to increased liklihoods of negative reaction. The OP is talking about the normalisation of those negative things, as demonstrated by yourself making the focal point the target, and not the offender.
If we operated under the focus shown in your post, you should have no complaints if someone physically slapped you square in the face after reading your post, because you chose to do something that that has an expected negative reaction from certain crowds.
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your conclusion is terrible
and you are putting the words in my mouth that never came out of it
How do you want to talk then ? Its absurd. Quote me on saying that raping or slapping in face is good and shouldnt be punished ?
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...I never said anything about rape, or punishment.
Whatever translation service you are using must be pretty bad.
As I said in a different reply to you, it seems the language barrier is too strong here so this is just a waste of our time. I'm bowing out.
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Maybe I can be of assistance. He is saying that you're straw-manning him with your argument about being ok with being slapped in the face.
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yes - you have to anticipate - and for those times that you cannot you have insurance - now if someone is raped, what was their insurance for that unanticipated act - cause I damn well know it wasn't you shouldn't have walked home that way, or you shouldn't have worn that skirt, or you shouldn't have had a drink.
Seriously, say some of thesse things in your mind that way and change it to being you saying them to a man - cause if you wouldn't say you shouldn't have had a drink to a man, or you shouldn't have worn those trusers to a man - then it sounds kinda stupid and the whole blame culture arguments given fall apart pretty quickly
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Dont forget i wrote thet we dont live in perfect world. Non bad things shoud have happend to anybody, but they are happening. we need to try to minimize the risk. Be aware is the easiest way.
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minimise the risk should not mean transfer the blame - I appreciate your other points, but with your arguments appear as though blame is being passed onto the woman in this instance (and forgive me if they are not - this argumentation is just one of my triggers and it gets very old) - if someone smashes into you, would you agree to let the other person blame you for the accident, perhaps because you should have minimised the risk by not driving down that road, or not having such a powerful car, or even having the wrong kind of tyres for that type of road surface - that is how silly the argument comes across when trying to blame a woman for the type of clothes they choose to wear, or the fact that, like men, they like to drink ......
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Quote me on the transfering blame ?
You are imagining words ?
Crime is a crime, victim is a victim.
The offender should be punished. but there are methods to minimise the risk of someone being the victim.
Thats all i said. i DID not justiefied the criminal/offender (its all your imagination or acting on a purpose to prove sth that did not come ot of my mouth). The world is not a safe place and we shouldnt taking a risk when we dont need it.
I see how you are letting you dear one to go on trip to syria now because he/she wants to visit it. No one should hurt her/him because ppl shouldnt hurt themselves.
How you cant understand that ? There are situation we should avoid despite of our believes. THATS ALL. Not that its your fault !!! I did not said that !!!
Who is silly now ?
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If you don't want to get catcalled, dress appropriately!
2: I dress as I please. It's my body, not someone else's.
you used this as the basis for your subsequent arguments - the inference being that this is a risk and risk should be minimised and/or avoided in an imperfect world.
your final line in the reply above is that "There are situation we should avoid despite of our believes" - clothing, IS NOT ONE OF THEM - if a person cannot control themselves because of what I wear, then they have a problem
and please don't call me silly, it is rude, and I never once called you silly, I said "that is how silly the argument comes across" - I even appologised in my post if that was not what you were infering
as for the Syria thing - that is just a specious obtuse argument used to deflect a perceived slight that was never meant - again appologies if you do not appreciate that what a woman wears, where she goes, and how much she drinks, should in no way be treated any differently to those same actions undertaken by a man - be they risk averse or not :)
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How do you call samoeone who uses silly arguments ?
For your last sentence.
Just like i said. Should not, but there are ppl who dont care. They dont obey rules. Should you forget about them ? Weve got prisions for a reason. I wish it was different but it isnt. Even in church there are childmolesters. Are the kids guilty ? No they are not. but ppl are hurting them. Saying stop you shouldnt on internet wont stop them.
How are the starving children guilty ? They are not, they didnt deserved that.
I dont see how that can be changed sadly.
Thats the world right now.
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now you are just trying to justify your point of view by changing the argument to the last points made in your latest texts - which is not what the baseline argument was about, but well done there - in my country, people use the risk avoidance argument all the time to shift blame onto the victim - they rarely ever do it if it is man - hence the double standards and hypocrisy and why that argument continues to come across as silly
that you do not see this, is something that I cannot alter, as that is a moral matter with your mindset and not something I can do anything about :)
But I appreciate your honest opinons on how it is all a womans fault that they did not avoid risk - nice :)
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i don't even understand why guys catcall. doesn't make sense to me. i wouldn't think any woman would be interested if I did that.
Mully are you in NY? seems like every video i have seen is NY guys do that.
West coast doesn't seem very prevalent, but maybe i am not in the right(wrong) places to see it.
Thanks for the giveaways!
also, sentence capitalization is not important. name capitalization is good.
I saw the USA video before. Most are definitely inappropriate, but why did they include two where some guy said Hello or another how are you doing? That is not catcalling. Was it a look on the face and not the words?
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i'm not from usa, but it happens to some degree in all places.
name capitalization is good.
SuPeRCoLLiDeR
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I'm curious, where do you live? No need to be specific, never noticed someone doing this here in Belgium, probably also happens here tho but since I'm a man I've never witnessed this.
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You should visit Turkey :) I don't think she's from Turkey though
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i'm from uruguay, it happens a lot here but it varies depending on the neighborhood.
i also travelled to argentina and it's the same thing.
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What is your government's attitude about this harrassment issue?
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the government knows there's a huge flaw in the system since 2013, so in 2015 they proposed a law but they are still "working on it".
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Geez, these governments... I feel terribly sad for all harass victims, I really wish all harassers would die in pain. All I can do is to tell you stay strong and keep standing for yourself and all victims out there.
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Now it explains a lot, I have also never seen anyone do that, living in a third world country is usually fucked up at all levels :(
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Ok so around 12% of the population is made up of mestizo and blacks / mixed-race blacks. It's actually surprising because I thouight it was significantly more than that.
"it varies depending on the neighborhood"
Well of course and the root of these problems is something that women in particular are going to have a hard time with due to their greater need for social approval. The overwhelming social consensus is very much against acknowledging and understanding racial differences. These things can't be solved with government policy and law making - only the cracks papered over. If you're curious to understand I'd recommend to read someone like Steve Sailer on human bio diversity.
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About Belgium, there was this study project that went viral a few years ago, from Sofie Peeters, a short documentary (original tltle "Femme de la Rue").
In its most "famous" sequence you can clearly see street harassment in Brussels. According to Wiki, this led to several measures taken by authorities.
https://youtu.be/mJx3kSPUi2I
Short version : https://youtu.be/x2w3D4sAkI8
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It happens a lot to girls I know who lives in Brussels
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Sadly, like attracts like with these kinds of mentalities. The people in the most prime positions to get them to chill the fuck out are likely immature enough to do it themselves, or unaware they do it due to assholes knowing how to segregate their real selves from their family/professional lives. That crossover between people they respect enough to listen to, and the people they would let their antics be exposed to is usually reaaaal slim. Oh for an easy solution, eh? :/
Without anything more positive to say than "It sucks and should only be heard from little brats during dares", have this link for a little catharsis :
https://youtu.be/oec92ndCJ08?t=18s
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I'll file this thread under my "Things I wish everyone would understand and then there would be no need for these awareness threads"-category.
I fully support this. Kudos on the formatting of the thread.
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Hm, I don't think I've ever really witnessed any cat-calling... But I guess my social life gives me a very limited view of the world...
Never would do it, but I guess I never really thought about how bad it can be... I think my first impulse would be along the lines of your FAQ#2, but now that I think about it, I should probably equate it to something I can relate to somewhat more, like someone saying insulting thing to me... At first I would just go with just rolling my eyes and moving along but if it was a regular thing it would be annoying/scary/... on a lot of levels...
And I guess #1 and #3 are somewhat related, eh? Revealing cloths are often seen as a sign that you enjoy the attention... But still I feel like people should err on the side of politeness instead of creepyness, but sadly people in general are idiots :-(
What confuses me the most about it is what it is supposed to achieve... Some weird ago boost for themselves for having done it?
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revealing clothes can be a tshirt + a pair of shorts, because it's summer with 30c or more.
i don't wear clothes for others, i do it for myself.
then we go to point #1
but there are girls that dress to get attention!
because someone enjoys it, doesn't mean everyone does.
i can post a lot of theories of why they do this, but it's just assumptions. =3
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I'm not trying to excuse it or anything... Just trying to get my head around how they might be thinking... well, guess there is not really much thinking involved... subconscious reasoning maybe... and yeah... there are a lot of flaws in that way of thinking, including stuff like "some people do it for..." does not mean "everybody does it for..." and even what some people think of as revealing...
Hm, I feel like this is linked to the whole "I'm so cool" macho attitude... My nephews are only 6 and 8 but I already see them being douchy like that from time to time... I really hope they'll get over it :-/
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it's better if you don't understand how their minds work. i think it's something to be proud of! ^^
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- Meh, it could be worse.
It could be worse, but it SHOULD be better.
Hear, hear!
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Well, someone else who likes to keep things simple.
I like it.
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You should raise this awareness on a new level and have a speech in the parliament for others to hear you...
As for the other women - well, it's a shame that guys in Manhattan and Brooklyn have such manners - noticed this myself one too-many times.
Don't know if this happens outside of the New-York(or US in general).
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https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/General_Assembly_of_Uruguay
99% of places have parliament and government etc
I highly recommend you take this up with your local MP
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These are two completely different things, raising the awareness among people, which tries to shift mentality of large groups of people to more reasonable and responsible down-top, and bringing the issue as a rule or a law top-down, which only lists crimes, punishments etc. and can't really change anything beyond stopping amount of severe crimes, basically only because of fear of punishment for committing these.
People who have hideous mindset still can commit a crime when they feel that they can avoid punishment (e.g. in some not populated places), or find holes in the laws to commit wrongdoings when not yet doing formally a crime, provoking and flouting others.
Thus without mentality with proper honest, fair values, laws are not much than a puke, annoying and provoking ignorant mob, getting them together to comfort each other in their right to misuse laws and put it in a way that they have right to do anything they please.
And when it comes to laws, problem is, that for most things in life law can't create a distinct borderline of what is acceptable and what is not. Too soft definitions of crime create among unreasonable mob impression that everything not stated in laws is welkomed. Too harsh laws create more cases of law misuse, which backfires discrediting law and morals. Nothing can be really improved by laws alone, only we can improve ourselves, act correctly and be consistent with our principles also in situations with other people. Not turn blind eye even if it brings problems.
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That's ok, because the US doesn't have a "parliament" either.
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🌟 Giveaways (moved to top for convenient leeching 😁):
If you want to share giveaways, please use this template:
copy everything inside the ` (even the opening/closing `grave accents`), edit and and paste it in your reply
Please use the format provided above! It's easier for me to copy-paste multiple giveaways in this thread. 🐤
It will take me a few days to update the list. To avoid having your giveaway not "showcased" set its duration to more than 5 days (unless you don't care, it's up to you).
Because I'm tired of getting catcalled and watching others in the street receive the same treatment, I decided to share some information with everyone in SG hoping that they can stop doing it and/or talk to their friends to make them reconsider their behavior.
Street harassment is unwanted and unwelcomed public attention, most often directed at women, which is demeaning and damaging. It’s not a private matter but one that should concern everyone.
If you have trouble empathising with strangers, then think about your mother, sister, or girlfriend. Would you enjoy watching people catcalling and telling them nasty things? How do you think they would feel about it?
On an average day I go out twice and I get at least one guaranteed catcall. On weekends or when I go out, for example to a club, it gets worse because groups of people feel more empowered to do so.
A few months ago I was walking with a friend and one guy said things and started to follow us. After a while it ended with me turning around and pepper-spraying his face, then running away in case he could fight back. This is the kind of violence it generates.
We had a rough rest of the day and were shaken up. I didn't enjoy doing that at all, but he had to be stopped. I also like to think the guy didn't enjoy it either.
So in the end, what did he achieve? Nothing.
Edit
OK, I'm gonna clear this up since some people like to assume things just to blame me for defending myself.
For the backward people, this was in june when I wasn't wearing "provocative shorts and t-shirts" clothes. These are the "nice compliments" I got amongst others i don't even want to repeat here and/or I want to forget:
hey girl nice butt
does your friend wanna F with me too?
hey reply bitch
come here lesbos!
GONNA EAT YOUR ASS
Walked one block with that guy which was 1 meter away from us. He wasn't shouting from the other side of the street, he wasn't half a block away, he wasn't sitting in the sidewalk. He was right behind us.
He got warned to leave us alone during the whole 1-block fast-paced walk. I didn't stop to "discuss" because I'm not a 1.9 meters 120kg guy, so I'm not putting my friend and I at risk at 8:30pm in the street.
You read the "You're not alone" thread?
Well, most of the stuff that I shared about me is linked directly to an experience related to this, but I wasn't walking with a friend and there were two guys instead of one following me. You can guess what happened next since I wasn't able to defend myself.
But of course, street harassment is harmless and nothing else can go wrong, nor it can trigger unhappy memories from past experiences.
Think a bit before judging others so quickly assuming they overreact when they feel in danger.~
I know I probably won't convince anyone catcalling to stop by posting this (it doesn't hurt to try), but if your friends or co-workers do it, you can persuade or talk to them and see if they get it. There's nothing worse than being in a group of friends and allowing them to act like idiots.
It's disgusting and demeaning, stop it. You're hurting people with your actions and makes you look like a fool.
❤️️ FAQ, in case you're gonna post one of these comments I get all the time.
- But some women like to be catcalled!
Yes, there's also men that like to get hit in the face with a hammer. So using the same logic, I should go out and hit all men with a hammer in hopes they enjoy it?
- Don't be so sensitive, ignore it.
No, it reaches a point it can't be ignored. It's not an isolated issue once per month or in certain situations so you can avoid it. It also affects me a lot depending on my mood, so when you feel like crap and you get catcalled, things get worse.
- So you want others to come to your rescue when some stranger catcalls you? That will end up with me getting in a fight!
I'm not asking people to fight for me, just them to stop doing it, spread the word, and discourage people in their group of friends from being disrespectful.
- If you don't want to get catcalled, dress appropriately!
1: Don't blame the victim.
2: I dress as I please. It's my body, not someone else's.
3: It doesn't matter if it's winter and I'm wearing a jacket, or summer with shorts and a t-shirt. Some people will be idiots anyway and say things.
- I bet you like it when a handsome guy catcalls you!
Irrelevant. I expect respect from everyone.
- What about men? They also get harassed!
I'm very aware guys also get harassed by both men and women, but this thread is about girls. Feel free to create another thread for that issue, and I will support it.
- So this is just a misandrist rant!
It's not. If you feel targeted by anything I said, then it's not because you're a man, it's because you actions ressemble what it's said here.
- Meh, it could be worse.
It could be worse, but it SHOULD be better. Also, normalizing this behavior makes it even more painful for victims.
- Women also catcall!
I never said they don't, but for each woman that catcalls me, i get 500 guys. So the issue at hand is the one I shared.
- This thread offends me!
That tells a lot about you. Log off, take your time, and think about it.
- This thread is inappropriate for SG, please close and delete it!
Go tell that to all other threads about awareness, politics, religion, sports, disasters, etc.
💙 Some info and articles:
Stop Street Harassment
Wikipedia definition
Documenting women's stories of street harassment
Why we need to take street harassment seriously
Dutch woman faces down her catcallers by posting selfies with them
💚 Videos:
Au bout de la rue (Court-métrage) - france
10 Hours of Walking in NYC as a Woman - usa
Woman is filmed walking London's streets for secret documentary - uk
Male actor dresses as woman to experience sexual harassment - egypt
Sons React to Their Moms Getting Catcalled - usa
💛 And some pictures:
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