I'm pretty sure they never found any signs of rape in any of the murders and he only killed prostitutes. Now they are talking about getting DNA from semen stains on a shawl? Wouldn't it make more sense that the shawl belonged to the prostitute and the semen stains were from a recent customer?
Considering that rape does not fit the MO of the killer and there were no signs of rape with any of the victims, you would have to be dumb to convict someone based on semen stains found on a prostitute.
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I'm pretty sure they never found any signs of rape in any of the murders and he only killed prostitutes.
Are you saying prostitutes can't be raped?
Now they are talking about getting DNA from semen stains on a shawl?
For the sake of argument, a lot of sadistic killers get sexual pleasure from their kills. There doesn't need to be any rape for semen to be present at the scene.
you would have to be dumb to convict someone based on semen stains found on a prostitute.
Again for argument's sake, they're not convicting or trying anyone.
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I think AllTrac probably meant that semen was not a rare commodity in the surrounding of a prostitute but still, I don't think that means there wasn't rape. I honestly doubt that any physical examination of the victims would have even searched or cared for signs of rape, exactly because prostitutes "can't be raped". And considering how it's still a pretty sad popular belief now, I'm very sure it was even worse back then, especially with cops.
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It is a meaningful data point whether the crimes had a sexual element involved in them or not. If not, then all the association tells us- assuming all the associations are in fact correct, and given that Kosminski's identity had some iffyness associated with, we can't necessarily be certain of that- is that the individual had some sexual involvement. Y'know, with a prostitute living within the same district [though admittedly, with an estimated 1200 prostiutes within the district, it'd be quite a coincidence for the two to be associated], in an era with very limited forms of entertainment.
You could use it as supporting element for validation, but as far as "identifying" goes, it's still more in the realm of "plausible conjecture" rather than "overwhelming evidence".
AllTrac has expressed some problematic sentiments in the past, but I'm not seeing any basis for hostility towards this particular comment, even if it does have some poorly phrased elements. I mean, it's entirely possible that they meant the comments to be dismissive of prostitutes. However, AllTrac did properly follow-up in correlating his comments to his basis, that without a clear sexual association in the crimes, all we know is that two people from the same district had sexual contact and were both related to the same murder case. Suspicious, definitely [especially given the odds involved], but not as emphaticly definitive as the OP states it to be.
Back when this conjecture was first introduced back in 2014, there were a lot of dubious, unprofessional, and unscientific elements to how it was presented. The individual make the claims at the time came across as rather untrustworthy, to put it very mildly. Now, we've got a second group who've analyzed the same shawl and claimed the same thing- but again, it's not something that is being taken seriously, other than by the most careless of news sources.
We're talking a shawl of uncertain origin, that has been handled by countless people (and moreover has been handled in the presence of the very individuals who the DNA tests claim to be comparing against), with unclear analysis points [it's only an assumption of blood and semen, and they can't be sure to whom either belongs to, thus their basing all results off of testing against descendents], in regards to an individual that has long been thought to have been misidentified, processed through two DNA tests that both have given strong indication of having been handled improperly (and which have failed to present even the most basic information about their process, further throwing their quality into suspicion).
Questioning the conflict with the previous perception of the killer's MO seems completely reasonable- though, frankly, perhaps a bit superfluous, considering everything else. Similarly, while the choice of phrasing could have been better, it's complely fair to state that no part of this matter is giving us any grounds to firmly accuse anyone of anything.
That said, Phoenix Wright vs Undead Jack the Ripper does make for an intriguing game concept, and arguments are just that much easier to put up with when you can express your discontent by throwing giant red Objection!s out at one another.
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I wasn't being hostile, just making a point that prostitutes can be raped and it wasn't a very popular idea back then either so any sign of rape might have been missed entirely by the investigators. Let's not kid ourselves, it wasn't exactly CSI back then and they probably wouldn't have even checked for rape so it's hard to tell if there was any sexual component to the Ripper crimes.
You could use it as supporting element for validation, but as far as "identifying" goes, it's still more in the realm of "plausible conjecture" rather than "overwhelming evidence".
Definitely not overwhelming evidence, and I don't even think it falls into the category of "compelling evidence" but again, they are forensic scientists and they're not operating in a legal frame for that particular case. I think the sensationalist writing of the "article" is making the findings more of a "certitude" than the researchers themselves did.
This article on Ars Technica is more circumspect, justifiably so.
And of course there's chain of custody and other elements that would preclude any actual identification, if this was a modern case
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AllTrac has expressed some problematic sentiments in the past
I'm not sure what you are talking about. The only thing even remotely controversial that I can remember writing in my almost 5 years here was when someone created a thread about gay marriage and basically said that anyone that commented in the thread that disagreed with them would be blacklisted. I explained that I had no issue with gay people and was not commenting about the subject matter, but I did have an issue with not allowing a discussion to happen and blocking an entire side of the argument by threatening to blacklist people for giving their opinions. I may have been a bit harsh with how I worded it by comparing the thread to North Korea, but I don't think I was wrong.
Edit: I just remembered about another thread that was about gun control, that's definitely controversial, but it's something that should be discussed. I think I did it in a civil manner and didn't say anything bad or attack anyone.
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I mean, sure, if you just wanna neatly tl;dr my comment like that. :P
It's fine to attack the argument, as per the "but with 1200+ prostitutes, that seems unlikely", but assuming AllTrac was expressing negativity just from what was said seems unreasonable.
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I never said that prostitutes can't be raped, I said that the doctors checked all of the victims of this killer and never found any signs of rape.
I also understand that a killer can leave semen without raping, but considering that the killer has not shown any signs of sexual gratification or left semen at any other of his killings and this semen was found with a prostitute, it is much more likely that the semen was from a previous customer of the prostitute. The shawl could have easily been hers. How do you know she doesn't use it to clean herself after meeting a customer and then wash it, this was in 1888.
Saying they are not convicting or trying anyone is just semantics. Maybe that wasn't the best word to use, but gathering evidence to prove who committed a crime is basically convicting someone. I was simply saying that this evidence that they are presenting would not hold up in a court of law to convict this person in this case.
It seems like this story is being hyped up and now everyone is saying that they used DNA to find out who the Jack The Ripper killer was, but that is not true at all. This adds another piece to the puzzle, but the case is still open and the killer is not known.
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That is not very productive. I understand they said "might", but I prefer to have actual discussions and explain things.
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Sorry, I've never had a good sense of humor. My brain just isn't wired that way and it's even harder when dealing with text on the internet.
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I didn't mean to attack you or anything like that. I was just asking a question and making a point about semen not necessarily being associated with rape but it's ok. Misunderstanding on both sides I guess.
I didn't mean to make it look like I was being the grammar police either. I was just saying that they are not bound to a legal frame necessary for conviction.
It's not as "clear cut" a case as the article's rehashing suggests obviously, as the Ars Technica case points out in detail. And it's not "evidence" as could be used in a court of law nowadays, if only because of the chain of custody on that shawl.
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It's not a problem, I didn't think you were attacking me. There is often confusion when talking to people on the internet because we don't always explain things perfectly. I may write something and understand it one way, but someone else may read it and comprehend it a completely different way. If I re-read what I wrote before I posted it, I probably could have worded it a little better to make what I was saying more clear. Things get even more complicated when you consider the fact that we are communicating with people from all over the world and English is not the first language for many users.
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In fairness, you never really should have made the presumption in the first place. There was a paragraph, man. They are constructed (good ones anyway) with each sentence intended to inform upon the last in pursuit of an ultimate conclusion. The answers to your questions are already elaborated by the statements that follow them.
I know in the next post you admit he "probably meant," though the context of the information presented should've set the odds for "probably" so close to "undoubtedly" that nothing even need be asked. Other interpretations require tossing out existing context to project an inference which otherwise could just be expressed directly if actually intended.
Just generally, I think whenever you've gotta break something up piecemeal to address, you're probably at greater risk of having gotten at least some part wrong already. Well, or dealing with some poorly constructed paragraphs.
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Well, I made several posts explaining what I was saying and in all fairness, I wasn't making a presumption, I was asking a question, but it's good to know that AllTrac has so many defenders although I wasn't attacking him and he does his own arguing just fine :P
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Well that's sorta the thing. It's just the way you interpreted the post was such a weird projection as to end up more presumption than question; as the answer should already've been clear with the sentences to follow already elaborating like in any normal paragraph. It's not a matter of having to defend him or needing any explanation of your own meaning, the takeaway is more heeding caution with those sort of hot-button eyebrow raisers---at least long enough to check again if the answers were provided already :-p
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Are you sure its me? I mean that's kind of the theme here: all your posts from that very one have been redundant if you just pay attention to what they actually say already.
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Huh... maybe after 100 years from now, humanity will manage to convict criminals of nowadays
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pffft the Vorlons took him, they told the story on Babylon 5 years ago, this article is obviously fake news!
Episode: "Comes the Inquisitor"
http://www.waynealexander.com/auto/pics/alex24.jpg
Question: Did Jack the Ripper appear in other fantasy or sci-fi movies/tv shows? He appeared in a classic Star Trek episode called "Wolf in the Fold" and I bet there was plenty more.
https://i0.wp.com/midnitereviews.com/wp-content/uploads/2016/05/Star-Trek-Wolf-in-the-Fold-4.jpg
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Can't forget Sanctuary where he is an immortal with the power of teleportation.
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I remember that series, I enjoyed it but I never finished it. I should go back and give it another go.
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Not sure if I remember it all correctly, but there is a Polish fantasy book-series with bunch of stories about one guy.
In one of those stories there was "I am not sure if they called him Skynet" who send robots to kill him, but they moved back in time for one-reason-or-another and in London so he murdered those robots (who for some reason disguised themselves as prostitutes) and butchered them to build time machine and come back to his own times.
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Question: Did Jack the Ripper appear in other fantasy or sci-fi movies/tv shows?
Looooots I'm sure, and I'm not even keeping track. Pretty good classic ST episode though.
The first one that comes to mind (at least that I remember because being a big HG Wells fan, I snuck out of my room to watch it on tv) was Time After Time.
There's often a scifi/fantasy element to movies or shows about the Ripper. I think the fact that he was never caught gives way to a lot of fantastic theories. Even movies like "From Hell" (more or less freely adapted from Alan Moore's graphic novel) have a faint whiff of scifi to them.
Very cool world crossover recently with the Batman universe in Gotham by Gaslight but I might just be biased because I can't resist anything Steampunk
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It's a possibility. There are missing links here in a fair few places, like the collar. Also, it's suspected that the evidence might've been contaminated.
But this is probably the best we can do overall, so I'm down to call him a horrendous murderer to ease my nerves about the Ripper being a time travelling vampire who kills anyone who mentions his name.
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Without reading this even if it's the same or not, but there was already a supposed dna thing months (maybe years?) ago on some scarf and then proved it wasn't Jack The Ripper's, i am guessing this will turn out into something similiar.
Also just really seems likely who did it had medical knowledge, And this guy was a barber/hairdresser..
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Barbers were usually pretty well established back then. I don't think morgue attendants were very hard to bribe or that it was not easy to access dead bodies in hospices for the poor.
My point is whoever Jack the Ripper might have been, he was not necessary a doctor. He could have practiced for years without anyone noticing before graduating to prostitutes (and he definitely wasn't the first serial murderer to attack prostitutes, he just has an MO that made the pattern more obvious to police and more interesting to the growing press)
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Seems to be the same story: Some writer bought the shawl (which's authenticity is questionable) from an auction in 2014 with the intention to cash in on the Rippermania after From Hell and write a True crime book exposing the real identity of the Ripper. He also gave the shawl to the authors of the current study for analysis.
Now the study is out despite being little more than another True Crime novel rather than respectable science.
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Another interesting article debunking this identification
Don’t believe the hype: We may never know the identity of Jack the Ripper
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Always reminds me of this game btw (Never liked the Elvira ones too much (too difficult) But Waxworks was nicely done. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=01tTQ-XMAV0
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wow, that's interesting anyways! (even if it "might" =P) I'm fascinated by these topics =)
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hmmmm looks like i need to watch 'from hell' again some time.
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I'll just leave these here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KfkR5o_bcSg
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CdXs5rtrISw
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Looks like forensic science has finally done it. They have finally identified Jack the Ripper.
Aaron Kosminski, a prime suspect, has been identified as Jack the Ripper.
Wow. That was a fascinating read.
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