At least it wasn't all bad for him since there are good card games companies like https://www.reddit.com/r/hearthstone/comments/dezybq/gods_unchained_tcg_will_pay_blitzchung_lost/
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Is it though? It's a marketing ploy. A good marketing ploy, but a marketing ploy nonetheless. XD
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So is 99% of good stuff companies do, but at least I'd rather have companies doing good than evil stuff to make a money.
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Even with it being a marketing ploy, an effort to make a show of morality is better than demonstrating of a lack of it.
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No deed is selfless and that's not what they have to be. The question is what you're doing, not why you're doing it.
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Aye, but if they had a big stake in the Chinese market, would they still make this move? When you have nothing to lose, only to gain, it doesn't mean a lot. If God's Unchained are already big in China, I take back what I said. I honestly never heard of them before yesterday. =)
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Well, that's exactly my point. It doesn't matter. If a person gives a million dollars to a children's cancer fund, then that million is still donated. It doesn't matter if the person actually did it just so the new cancer ward can be named after them for good publicity. That million still goes towards those kids. That million still has the exact same value and impact.
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This isn't a charitable contribution though and I'd agree with you if it was.
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Are they not giving their own money to pay the disenfranchised winner's lost winnings?
Maybe I'm just missing something here?
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Nope, you're on point. I think what Shannon is trying to say is that since she considers this a marketing ploy (I agree), it won't earn her any points of respect for the company behind Gods Unchained. But it doesn't have to. In the end it's a win-win situation and that's what matters.
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Ah, yeah, alright. I thought the point was that it was not a good deed because it was to get them marketing.
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Coming from the company that banned someone for doing the OK sign, this does not surprise...
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Except that it doesn't, the whole thing was a trolling campaign by 4chan kids that some trigger happy people took seriously. The point was to show how stupid those people are and they had a perfect success.
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Very little to discuss about simple facts. https://mashable.com/article/ok-hand-gesture-hate-symbol-anti-defamation-league-white-sumpremacy/
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That article doesn't help your case. It indicates that use of the symbol was intended to be a deniable means of expressing white supremacy that could be used to mock people that called out racism as crazy, a bit like how hanging keys from a belt loop started being used to express homosexuality in the 1970s, although that deniability was important for safety rather than opportunities to publicly mock accusers. The article also points out that the gesture is being actively used by confirmed white supremacists, such as the one that carried out the Christchurch massacre. What significance do the origin and alternative uses of the gesture hold (it will get you into a fight in Brazil, by the way) when white supremacists are using it as a symbol of white supremacy? I don't think anyone believes that neo-Nazis are using the swastika as a benevolent Sanscrit symbol of good fortune.
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What are you reading? It clearly tells that the OK sign never meant anything else than OK. Then a 4chan troll started a campaign to see what ridiculous things he could troll the "alt-left" to believe are evil, but the trolling went better than expected because even the "alt-right" fell for it and started believing OK means White Power, since OK and WP look almost the same. Same crap with the frog and what else, you have been trolled and fell for it so hard.
I really hope the next troll manages to make everyone believe that human rights and gender equality are hidden codewords to show you're a nazi or something so ridiculous people will finally have to admit that they missed the whole point. I also hope swastika would go back to being the symbol of good luck it has been for thousands of years for about everyone not living in Europe.
Do you really think we should give 4chan total power over what words, signs etc we can or cannot use and what they mean?
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"It started out as a trolling tactic by the far right to discredit progressive figures and get a rise out of social media users, but has recently been used by actual white supremacists...The Anti-Defamation League notes that some of the 4chan users taking part in the bombardment may also be racists and white supremacists themselves, since the site is 'something of a haven for them'. But by promoting the gesture as a hate symbol, 4chan's trolling has encouraged white supremacists to actually use it as a hate symbol. Brenton Tarrant, the white supremacist charged with murdering 50 people in a mass shooting targeting mosques in Christchurch, New Zealand, flashed an "OK" gesture during a court appearance in March 2019."
It's not about bestowing encyclopaedic power upon anyone, it is about interpreting the message as intended by the person transmitting it. What exactly have I fallen for hard? All communication is essentially arbitrary, relying on a shared agreement of the message. These meanings are not absolute or universal, they are culturally dependent and can be different at different times, in different places or in different contexts. Words and gestures mean whatever people agree them to mean at that time, defined by the communicator's intent and whether it is conveyed. If somebody says "I am going to put you to sleep", they might be announcing that they are going to tuck you into bed or they may be issuing a warning that they are going to punch you as hard as they can in an attempt to knock you unconscious. It is quite important to be able to interpret the intent of this communication, and most people would not have difficulty with this, based on the context.
The okay symbol has not always exclusively meant okay and nothing else. In various contexts, it is used for many different things including the number zero, worthless, small, money, sun, anus, vagina and associated insults - Richard Nixon was booed and mocked for unwittingly using it in Brazil. If a baseball team decides that the okay symbol means an instruction to bunt down the third base line, then that is what it means during the game. The context is relevant to understanding the intent, not historical or alternative meanings. Racists have recently used the gesture to represent white supremacy, and in that specific communication, that is what it means because that is what they say it means.
The guy in the Blizzard Arena was clearly not trying to communicate a message of "okay". He may not be the manifesto writing, minority murdering kind of white supremacist, but only a racist would think it funny to "ironically" display a gesture being promoted as a symbol of white supremacy, especially three weeks after the Christchurch massacre guy was photographed doing it. You might have to explain the comedy to me if you think I've missed the whole point. As I understand it, the goal is to make people that don't like white supremacy uncomfortable, i.e. everyone that is not racist. I think there could have actually been some decent satirical amusement if the "prank" had just involved claiming that historical images of public figures showed that they were actually white supremacists on the basis that they were using the okay gesture, which was supposedly a secret white power symbol. Instead, by jokingly claiming that the gesture was a symbol of white power and then publicly displaying it, it realized this as fact. It's like publicly saying "I wish I never had to see another gipsy...or do I? Hahaha!". - Yeah, you do. Only racists would joke about that. It's fundamental to the premise. Making public declarations like that is not quite firebombing ethnic restaurants, but it's a substantial way there. It sends a clear message of intimidation to minorities and it emboldens others to express similar sentiments, and some of them might not stop at words or gestures.
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Smart way to react to 4chan trolls trying to say OK sign is racist: tell everyone of every color and gender and whatnot to start using the sign publicly to show that equality is OK, you win and they lose.
Stupid way to react: ban the totally innocent OK sign and let 4chan trolls and "alt-right" have a win over you.
You have fallen for the stupid way thinking it's somehow the smart one. You have fallen for losing an easy fight to some 10yo trolls from 4chan nobody sane takes one bit seriously. Banning words and signs never did anything at all, the racists or other bad people just moved on to another word and sign, repeating this as many times as they got banned. Only after the last word and sign have been banned as racist will they maybe finally get that it was pointless all along. The problem is racism, not words or signs used for it.
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The innocent OK sign is not banned. If the guy being interviewed at the Blizzard Arena had performed the okay gesture when asked how he felt about his performance, there would have been no action taken. As I said, there is no inherent meaning in any words or symbols, the meaning is designated by the intent of the person communicating. The guy in the background was not trying to signal okay and this is clearly apparent from the context. For starters, okay is a response, like nodding for yes or shaking your head for no, but he had no context for a response because he was not asked anything. Furthermore, he was displaying the signal anonymously (only his hand and forearm were visible), so it is also not possible to argue that he was actually trying to respond okay to somebody watching on television. He was clearly trying to display a symbol intended to be received by his peers as a representation of white supremacy. The fact that they find it funny doesn't stop it being terrible. Do you not understand the implications of publicly making racist statements? I shouldn't need to repeat the last sentence of my previous message. It doesn't matter that the message is coded, particularly since the code has been publicized. If the people using the gesture say that it represents white power then it does, regardless of what else it can mean in other contexts. It seems to me that you have fallen for the erroneous argument peddled by the alt.right and 4-Chan trolls that a symbol can't have more than one meaning, and therefore any symbol with pre-existing meaning can be used with impunity. I have already demonstrated that this is false.
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So if everyone can use it and only the purpose when used matters, why is it on such lists and labeled "extreme right"? If racists say "yes" when asked if racism is OK, does that mean we should but "yes" on the list as well? Or if they now start using thumb up instead, will that become racist?
Do you understand that people have been making the OK sign in public without being racist for who knows how long and nothing changed there? Using the OK sign doesn't make anyone racists, being a racist does.
Huh? We seem to agree that all things can have various meanings, but for some reason you think it's OK to label them purely based on one of them while I think only the intention matters.
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The same reason that the number 88 is on there - it is used by white supremacists as a code. That doesn't mean that the number 88 is banned from use.
I now see why you have been accused of gaslighting. You are intentionally misinterpreting my argument and stating that I am making a completely different point while claiming my argument as your own.
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Yes I've been accused of lot of things by trolls doing exactly what you describe.
So could you maybe stop being hostile and accept that we agreed on it, just had a misunderstanding? Or will you continue your trolling that you know better than me what I meant?
What do we disagree about? The list being completely useless I guess?
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What do we disagree about? We disagree about the intent of the person anonymously gesturing in the background of the Blizzard Arena broadcast. You say that it is a totally innocent OK sign because it has never meant anything other than OK. I say that the person displaying it is not trying to say OK but to display a symbol being promoted to represent white power.
I have not been hostile. You are the one insulting me by calling me stupid: "you have fallen for the stupid way thinking it's somehow the smart one".
I have am not trolling, I have simply pointed out that your latest statement contradicts all of your previous arguments: "We seem to agree that all things can have various meanings" is completely inconsistent with your previous points:
- "the OK sign never meant anything else than OK", and
- "Stupid way to react: ban the totally innocent OK sign".
I don't accept that we agreed all along. Your entire argument has been based on the singular point that the OK sign is inherently innocuous and can therefore not be racist. It is clear that this is what you meant because you have repeated it and consistently used it to rebut my clear arguments against this. From my first post, my singular point, which you are now claiming as your own despite having consistently made arguments against it, has been that a sign has no inherent meaning and should be interpreted however the communicator intends it to be interpreted. You made your point clearly and consistently, as I did with my opposing point. By claiming that you meant the exact opposite of what you said all along and that I am foolish for not realising this, you are, in addition to contradicting yourself, applying the same misguided logic as the white power/okay trolls: you are claiming that the meaning was ambiguous and that it's the receiver's fault for misinterpreting it after you have already explained your intent. Even if the message had genuinely been lost in translation, it is wrong to think that the blame for poor communication is the fault of the receiver. Declaring victory over a supposedly inferior intellect that simply can't understand your clever ideas is ridiculous - a failure to adequately convey an idea is entirely the fault of the communicator. For the same reason, Magic Johnson, arguably the finest passer in the history of basketball, said that an unsuccessful pass is always the fault of the passer and not the receiver - in all regards, it is the responsibility of the transmitter to ensure successful receipt. In this written exchange, my argument has been consistent and clear in opposition to yours. If you truly believed that I had misunderstood your point, why didn't you say so instead of saying that I was wrong and stupid?
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I wasn't talking about any Blizzard Arena, the only Blizzard related drama I know is the Hong Kong one. So I can't make claims about things I don't know.
I didn't call you stupid. This is one of those things where people read what they imagine is meant into something instead of just reading it.
My statements have never contradicted themselves, purely because my opinions have always been the same and I say them as they are. You're the one who's changing because I pointed out that the way you act looks stupid, which is completely different thing than you being stupid. If you were stupid, you didn't need to fall down to the level of stupid in this one thing would you? You would just be there.
No my point was and still is that OK sign WAS perfectly innocent until people like you started falling for the stupid 4chan troll's stupid trolling and allowed it to be turned into something else, giving the trolls power over your life instead of just laughing at them. That only the way something is used means anything at all, not what was used.
I can blame people for not reading what I write at all. Then they imagine some hidden meaning I have no idea about and start arguing against it. So it's people like you who are to blame for acting like that, not me, since there are people capable of having an actual conversation still.
I say something, which someone else misunderstands. Then they ask/comment to me about the point they imagine I made and I clarify it never changing anything, just wording the exact same thing in a bit different way which is how you clarify things. Then the other person has 2 ways to continue:
Smart adult way: accept that they misunderstood and continue discussion based on the clarification
Stupid troll way: adamantly refuse to accept the clarification and continue arguing against their own imagination
So how am I to blame for the ones that act in the stupid way exactly? If anything I've grown tired of people acting stupid so I give them back exactly the same thing that they are bringing to the table. Then they cry that what they were doing is stupid, but only when I'm doing it.
So yeah, adult discussion or not, all still up to you.
I told you that you misunderstood and response was "That is not true. Please read your previous correspondence."
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- "I wasn't talking about any Blizzard Arena" - the first post of this thread says otherwise. Are you really now denying not only the point you have been arguing but the subject as well? And you call me a troll?
- "I didn't call you stupid" - "The point was to show how stupid those people are and they had a perfect success", "you have fallen for the stupid way thinking it's somehow the smart one", "the way you act looks stupid", "You're the one who's changing because I pointed out that the way you act looks stupid". If you are trying to say that you didn't literally state that I am stupid, you only implied it or said that I behave or think stupidly, that is a very flimsy argument and just as offensive, regardless. You are still liberally sprinkling your commentary with "stupid" and now complementing it with "adult", apparently claiming that I am not behaving as an adult. You haven't bothered to explain what you think is stupid or childish about my argument, and these insults just make it obvious that you have given up on the point being argued because the facts don't support your case.
- "My statements have never contradicted themselves" - they have, as I demonstrated with quotations in my previous message.
- "You're the one who's changing because I pointed out that the way you act looks stupid" - did you study debating at Trump University? "I know you are but what am I?" is not a well-regarded rebuttal in civilized circles. Please provide evidence that I changed my argument if you're going to make such a claim. My argument has been consistent throughout: symbol meaning is dictated by context and determined by the communicator, illustrated with examples: Message 1 - meaning of keys on belt and multiple meanings of swastika, Message 2 - multiple meaning of okay sign, Message 3 - reason the symbol displayed at Blizzard Arena did not mean okay, Message 4 - multiple meanings of number 88. Every message makes the same point and you have been arguing against it until recently.
- "If you were stupid, you didn't need to fall down to the level of stupid in this one thing would you? You would just be there." - that's not what you said. You didn't say that, you said "you have fallen for the stupid way thinking it's somehow the smart one", implying that I am gullible, not that my intelligence temporarily dropped.
- "No my point was and still is that OK sign WAS perfectly innocent until people like you started falling for the stupid 4chan troll's stupid trolling and allowed it to be turned into something else, giving the trolls power over your life instead of just laughing at them. That only the way something is used means anything at all, not what was used." - this is the crux of the issue, because your final sentence, the new addition to your argument, contradicts the preceding statement. As I previously said, if the okay = white supremacy joke had remained purely observational, this would have remained a harmless joke. That is not what happened. When people started actively displaying the sign intended to mean white power, even "as a joke" (because "pretending" to be a racist is so funny), it transformed it, giving it new meaning as a racist symbol (because that is the intent of the people using it), which you admit has been adopted by the alt.right. Despite arguing against it, you now claim to agree that the intent of the user determines the meaning of a symbol, so you should not call people stupid for interpreting the message as intended - by your own most recent argument, that is how it should be received.
- "I can blame people for not reading what I write at all." - except I did read it and even quoted it back to you to illustrate the point.
- "So yeah, adult discussion or not, all still up to you." - it shouldn't all be up to me. You should also behave like an adult instead of slinging insults about me being stupid, childish, trolling, hostile and crying.
- "I told you that you misunderstood and response was 'That is not true. Please read your previous correspondence.'" - you literally argued the opposite point, as I showed with quotations in an earlier message.
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Here's a picture of a horrible child molester using the hand signal for timeout in court. Should we treat all sports teams using it as pedophiles now? Would make as much sense to me.
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No. There is nothing offensive about requesting a break. Despite illustrative examples ad nauseam, you have completely failed to understand my point: symbols and words are not offensive, it is the message that is offensive.
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That has been my exact point all along, so why are you arguing against me?
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That is not true. Please read your previous correspondence.
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Sigh, another one telling me what I meant with something pretending to know it better than me.
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Don't sigh as if there is nothing you can do about this. You can learn to make your point clearly and not change to an opposing point during the argument and claim that you have been misunderstood. There is a reason that you are regularly receiving this feedback.
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I can learn to give trolls back what they give to me. I have no interest in people who are not able to have an civilized adult discussion.
I still have never changed my point or opinion in any of this not even once. If I ever do, I will fully disclose it. Like if some adult uses convincing arguments that change my opinion, then I tell them that they were right and I was wrong. But if the only arguments they keep on and on saying are based on only their own imagination instead of my opinions, there is very little I can do about it.
You're the one changing your mind if anyone from first OK sign being fully racist and then only partly and then surprisingly just like I have been saying only racist when used by a racist in a racist meaning, just like the word "yes".
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I have been civilized. You are the one that keeps using insults instead of arguments.
Your recent point contradicts your previous point. it is not logically consistent for you to hold both of them.
Please provide evidence to show that I have changed my mind or ever argued that the OK sign was fully racist. I couldn't have said it was deniable if that was the case.
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No, you have been the troll here. I still haven't changed even one thing.
Me explaining the same exact point in a different way contradicts your false assumption of what my point was, purely because your understanding changes, not my point.
See here's the thing, I can accept just fine that I was wrong about what you meant and then the smart solution would be to agree. It's still only you that adamantly refuses to accept that you might have misinterpreted something and continues to argue based on that imaginary point. I always admit when I'm wrong, but I never bow down to trolls like you trying to force some of their own imagined opinions as my points.
Still only up to you. You can behave like an adult, accept that you were wrong and life goes on. Or you can behave like a troll and argue against your own imagination. If it's the latter, please leave me out of it already and go argue with a mirror since even this simple thing seems to be beyond your understanding. I have very little hope of you ever being able to respond with anything else than more of the same but life is full of surprises too. Can you say anything at all except repeat the same imagined points you thought I was making?
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If only we could solve all problems by having 4chan trick the problem-obsessed masses. Time for 4chan to put up a candidate for President and all members of political office, while they're at it.
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Exactly, at least someone understand why we shouldn't give the 10yo trolls any power at all.
https://mashable.com/2009/04/26/time-4chan-moot/
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Since when did gaslighting start to mean "I disagree with that person so they're gaslighting"?
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Around the same time that trolling and other words got the same meaning, is my guess.
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LOL.
I guess facts are evil, since ignorance is bliss.
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"Except that sign implies more than 'a-okay' now"
What?
"Thanks for shitting up my thread already "
WAT?
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He fell for the 4chan troll and is now ashamed, is my guess.
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There was no wrong usage, you can use anything however you want, its a free country and the a okay sign means a okay, thats it. Anyone tell you otherwise has an agenda.
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Crazy world lol, but these weirdos are so great at being offended that soon you can`t say shit before someone wants you fired.
Eg. , I said lol, which means HaHa which to them must be code for Heil Hitler.
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OK sign is just OK sign here
I dont care about some SJW BS
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Thanks, it's the first time I saw someone being triggered live by the ok sign.
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You have to be extremely out-there like Blizzard to be triggered this much by the OK-sign... :/
Even the guy they went haywire over didn't even know wtf the problem was with it. GG Blizzard.
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i don't blame either side. The media is so ridiculous these days. it was an obvious attempt at trolling, which they fell for, just to capitalize on it.
Continuously escalating mundane acts of stupidity, and putting them out there, so the wrong people can make use of it.
The very same thing, as happened before with other memes like "pepe"
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wondering if Epic is sweating on their pants right now.
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Why would they? It's not like consumer will make any changes in their habits...
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you just need a few individuals to make make some noise, if they pounce on it, which is likely since tencent owns them, and get some bad PR, with fortnite player numbers staggering could be enough to make them loss momentum.
Blizzard certainly had a lot more to lose since most of their games are not really that mainstream popular,
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Overwatch, World of Warcraft, Starcraft? All those are pretty "mainstream popular"
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We live in dark times when Blizzard is not considered mainstream by Fortine kids.
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They WERE mianstream popular, not anymore, certainly not, phah, starcraft, that crap is dead and rightfully so, it, mobas, blizzard, killed the RTS genre.
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Starcraft 2 is very much alive. There are more than enough players. You will have no trouble finding games. I didn't play in months, but I always come back to that game, as it is the best available RTS in my opinion. And whenever I play, from what I can tell there are plenty of players in every mode.
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Whenever you hear someone call a game with an active player base a "dead game" you just know what they're actually saying is "I want this game to die." It's misused to a stupid degree. Just like "nobody cares" usually means "I don't care" and they exaggerate to try and make a bigger impression on anyone ignorant.
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that crap is dead and rightfully so
and
Starcraft 2 is a piece of shit and its dead
Sure, not at all what you're implying. Especially considering the fact that StarCraft 2 is still going strong, as KillingArts and Starwhite provided evidence for, but you won't listen to because you're emotionally biased against the game.
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Dead in development scene, not in player scene, learn to indeferentiate the two seperates.
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They WERE mianstream popular, not anymore, certainly not, phah, starcraft, that crap is dead and rightfully so, it, mobas, blizzard, killed the RTS genre.
+
Starcraft 2 is a piece of shit and its dead, compare the current player numbers to to years before
So after losing the argument and admitting it does have an active player base after all, you just start lying to try and damage control. Cool. If you have any amount of integrity, I suggest you stop and think about what you're doing before you embarrass yourself further.
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I didn't lose anything and I never said its dead in terms of playerbase, youre just clueless that I have to specifically explain to you in what way i meant that game Is dead, I'm not lying, you're strawmaning and trying to put words in my mouth, if you have any sense of shame, I suggest you keep your mouth shut and think before you try to steer a vague statement in your direction.
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So now you're mad because I exposed your lies. I'm not strawmanning at all. I'm only quoting your own words that clearly show what you were saying. No way out of this one, kid. I'm done talking to a brick wall.
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It's like poker is a dead game for ages already since nobody has worked on development of the regular playing cards, don't you just get it?
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Oh, that's true. Guess I'm just too dumb to get the intricacies. :P
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Youre mad i caught onto you, im annoyed youre trying to spin whatever ive said into what i might vaguely hint at what i might be saying but i never said that, all i said that its dead, i never said in what way its dead, you being dense as a brick wall immideatly shoves words into my mouth,telling me i told you that nobody is playing SC2 so its dead in terms of playerbase when i never said that, my intention was that its dead, in terms of development and new content, im not one of those stupid fucking kids to call a dead game when it obviously has players, i played it a few months ago and it had plenty of players, im not stupid, you are for trying to spin what i vaguely may have suggested, into your own web, not gonna work child, no way youre gonna pull this one over me. Youre not quoting me correctly.
''starcraft, that crap is dead''
But in what way is it dead? I never said whether playerbase or development wise, did i? You immideatly assume playerbase and you have only yourself to blame for such ignorance, instant assumption and completly wrong shot calling. Its dead in terms of DEVELOPMENT, DEVELOPMENT, not playerbase, its NOT DEAD in terms of playerbase. Okay? Got it dense head? You bet your ass youre done kid.
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From last year but maybe the trend has even continued. What is surprising is that there are plenty of NA/EU players and not just the KR zerg hordes. I know people who play Diablos, WoW, HS etc but haven't heard of anyone I know playing any SC in years.
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Starcraft 2 is a piece of shit and its dead, compare the current player numbers to to years before, its dead to blizzard, thats why they focus/focused alot more on the original one with the remaster, koreans dont like starcraft 2 and for good reasons, thats the whole reason why the remaster came, to get more money out of them because they wouldnt play the sequel, the stupid esports are dead in that country, their all playing brood wars over there which is a better game and didnt kill off freaking all the other RTSes, poor C&C... and no, in terms of, can you find a game to play against people? No its not dead, ofcourse its not, but it is more now than it was before and one thing is sure, its dying, its turn is coming for what it did to all the other RTSes. And it is far, far, far, far, far from being the best avaivable RTS, its a steaming hot pile of cancer dung. I personaly have many reasons to hate it but being not tank rushed, not zerg rushed, but BASE RUSHED? Is what did it to me, not THE reason, but ONE of reasons. Again, i didnt talk about finding players, i talked about buisness.
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Starcraft 2 is a piece of shit
Your opinion. Many people, including myself, think it's one of the best available RTS games right now.
and its dead, compare the current player numbers to to years before
You have been given evidence against that and seem to ignore it. So I post it again, and also a picture for you at the end, in case you don't want to use the link for whatever reason. The game is healthy.
its dead to blizzard
It's not. They support it to this day. The game has received 2 patches last month and 3 in August. For a game of this age this is quite impressive.
thats the whole reason why the remaster came, to get more money out of them because they wouldnt play the sequel, the stupid esports are dead in that country, their all playing brood wars over there
Also not true. Have you ever watched GSL? There are many korean SC2 players. A lot of popular BW players like Bomber switched after a while. Brood War is still very popular, true. But it's really not like all Koreans are playing only BW. SC2 is a thing in korean e-sports.
which is a better game and didnt kill off freaking all the other RTSes, poor C&C...
Oh, how did it do that? By being too good?
No its not dead, ofcourse its not, but it is more now than it was before and one thing is sure, its dying
Again, NOT TRUE. You have been given the evidence that contradicts that. The trend even goes upwards.
its turn is coming for what it did to all the other RTSes
Man, it's a game. It doesn't have a personality and it doesnt go around "killing" other games. I seriously laughed out loud about this...
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Not mine, go talk to people around, pay attention to peoples perception, expierience, feelings with it, you say that as if everyones loves it, thats not the case, and there are very real reasons for its rejection, its not the worst game but its certainly not anywhere near the best. Lets say that its true that its one of the ''best'' avaivable RTS around. Thats because its the ONLY one. Name me one other ongoing online service RTS. Generals 2 would of been one but it was canceled as many other ones, all other existing games, SC2 killed them, it killed the competition. WoW replaced WC4, Microsoft is only now after 13 years, making a new proper mainline Age of Empires game and only because they have litearly no other IP to invest in, their desperate for them. Total War is yearly or something so that doesnt count, Petrogplh Games ones are utter shit, one and done's, Sega has stopped with Company of Heroes crap and thankfully so, god awfull series. SC2, for some reason, stood above all with a victory royale but its time is coming to join the others it put them into the states their in. No idea where youre getting this biased info from. Patches... its just a maintnance by a skeleton crew, they stopped at the co-op thing. And its not impressive, its duisgusting, a awfull game that put other RTSes in the grave, never allowing to be beat or share the spotlight, EA tried so, so hard with C&C and all was in vain. Blizzard doesnt have alot of ongoing online service games so its easy to see a game of this ''age'' would be still kicking, i mean, so is Warcraft 3 and its even older, receiving resolution, balance patches, the only same things that SC2 is getting nowadays. Yes it is true, i trust what i red, what i watched, what i heard. There may be many korean SC2 players but there are even more BW players, i never said there werent any koreans at all in SC2 but you have to admit the majority left are europians, americans, etc. Its not just still popular, its more popular, over there, didnt say all of them, again. Ofcourse it is, just not as a big of a thing. It wasnt being too good, it doesnt take a good game to garner all the attention, it can be a piece of shit with the name ''Blizzard'' branded on it and people will still flock to it, it wasnt too good, but it was decent enough to retain that attention. Ofcourse it doesnt go around doing that, it has already done that ages ago, so many people, games, companies, tried to take its place, they all died in vain, so RTS died around this stupid game, people stopped trying, we have SC2 and WC3 with the moba mod to thank for for where RTS is today. Anyways, keep supporting the china loving shell of a former self company.
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Could we maybe stick to the truth? Tencent has a big share of Epic, but they do not own them. They are not the majority shareholder.
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Havent heard of who has the 52% sharehold, if there is no such entity, then yes, they are the majority and its abundantly clear with the history of the epic launcher that china matters to them alot, what with keeping security low for china hackers to get our accounts and what not, im still getting email pops on my account even today of suspicious use. I was among those 2 million hacked users btw, or was it 20? I dont remember, nobody cares about that incident.
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who has the 52% sharehold
Tim has
if there is no such entity, then yes, they are the majority
no...
Only those persons who own more that 50 percent of a company's shares can be a majority shareholder.
By the way the biggest shareholder of Tencent is a South African company which, following that logic, makes them and Epic African
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Havent heard of who has the 52% sharehold, if there is no such entity, then yes, they are the majority
What do you mean you haven't heard? Why not invest 10 seconds and google it? Sweeney is the majority shareholder.
and its abundantly clear with the history of the epic launcher that china matters to them alot, what with keeping security low for china hackers to get our accounts and what not
Ok, just so I understand it - you assume Epic is owned by a chinese company and therefore basically owned by the chinese government. And instead of just getting our data, Tencent/chinese government makes it so that the security measures are weak enough so that they can hack the company they presumably own? Makes total sense. ;)
Nothing is abundantly clear here. Like most companies on the internet Epic had a security issue. Why is it not possible that it's just that? Companies all over the world have security issues and data leaks without being owned by any chinese company. Why do you think it's impossible that the exact same thing happened to Epic?
The thing is, there is more than enough to criticise about Epic and their store/launcher. The obvious lack of features compared to Steam. Regional pricing. Exclusivity deals. And yes, also the relationship with Tencent. Why is it necessary to resort to exaggerations and/or falsehoods? Tencent is not the majority shareholder. There is no evidence whatsoever that they sell or gift your data to China. Why not concentrate on the things you actually know for a fact and criticise those?
This reminds me of Denuvo. While there is a lot to criticise about any copy protection and about Denuvo in particular, some people thought it necessary to invent lies like "Denuvo destroys SSDs" in order to attack it even more. I will never understand why it was not enough to talk about the things that are actually wrong with Denuvo and instead invent lies to make it look even worse. If we can't discuss these things in an honest way, I don't see the point of even discussing it. Just to be clear: I am not saying that you are doing the same thing here. You are obviously not lying. But you are assuming things that are either factual wrong, or not proven at all and therefore no facts. Therefore we shouldn't act as if they were facts.
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Yes. How else did, what was it, 2 or 20 million accounts got hacked, mine included. Never happened with any other launcher.
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I ever said that no steam account got hacked? No? My account on steam got hacked once, sure, but you know what the difference is? I made a mistake that led to that, my only mistake with the epic account, was that i created a epic account, it just existed and it got hacked.
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Never happened with any other launcher.
Yeah you said exactly that and I provided you a link where just having Steam on your Windows PC put the whole PC at risk, not just your account to show you how wrong you were.
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If putting steam on pc was putting it at risk, then putting epic on my windows has put it in literal danger, steam account got hacked by of my mistake, not valves, and i fixed the issue with their help, epic though? Im still getting messages in my email that someone is accesing my epic account, and that hacking happened over a year ago, TWENTY MILLION ACCOUNTS, or two. The only other launcher i had this problem with is Uplay. Im not wrong, i can show you those messages if you want, ive had no such thing coming from steam to me, all im getting from steam are sale indicators for my wishlist.
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Did you read the article at all?
“With Steam having over 100 million registered users and 96.28% of them are running Windows according to the Steam Hardware & Software Survey: July 2019, the systems of roughly 96 million of them are currently affected,” explains BleepingComputer.
96 million accounts and everything on the same PC as them at risk vs 20 million useless Fortnite accounts of which many are just kids rebuying the game after getting banned for cheating.
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Those are just statistics, not person to person, mouth to mouth expieriences, let me tell you of my expierience. My account is in no risk. I accidentaly put it in risk but it was salvaged. Epic put my account into DANGER and danger came, theres a difference between putting at risk, and throwing litearly into the fire. Steam has security measures responsibility, Epic has nothing, doubt they even know the word security.
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Yes they are huge statistics numbers of almost 100 million vs your 1 account and some hearsay. Also you don't seem to understand how giving someone full access to your PC is a far worse thing than losing your Epic account which probably just contains some free games.
Epic is bad, no argument there, but don't make silly claims like
Never happened with any other launcher.
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I didnt give anyone my full pc access, dont be digging nonsense out of the ground, i clicked a link and that compromised my account, NOT MY PC, but i quickly solved it with valve so its good, i learned a lesson and became extremely carefull afterwards. Epic however didnt do shit, they offer unprotected accounts and never tried to solve the security issue, which may have been impossible since there was no security to begin with. Okay fine, you got me there, it happened with my uplay launcher too but that is agreeded upon by the whole world that it is a piece of shit so its not genuinely suprising it happened, and it doesnt matter it happened anyway, piece of shit launcher.
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So yeah, you are completely illiterate it seems. How about you finally click on the link I gave and actually read the article?
Nobody at all cares about your Epic account.
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Youre right, epic doesnt care about my and those millions of accounts, thats why what happened, happened.
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And Steam doesn't care about your whole PC, that's why they had security holes.
96 million vs 20 million, which number is bigger?
Losing Epic account vs losing your PC and EVERY account on it, which is bigger?
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Steam actualy cares, thats why what happened on epic, hasnt happened on steam, steam actualy has security, epic doesnt. You can compare numbers all you want, what you need to actualy compare is security measures, your numbers are meaningless, it could be 2 billion to 200 for all i care, what matters is, which software is more secure. You cant lose your pc, if anything would make you lose your pc, it would be windows 10. And youre underestimating chinese hackers, it may be an epic account for starters, but it very well could escalate, im genuinely suprised it hasnt though.
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So you still refuse to read this: https://www.forbes.com/sites/gordonkelly/2019/08/22/microsoft-windows-10-steam-gaming-windows8-windows-7-warning-upgrade-windows/
The vulnerability allows attackers to elevate their permissions on a target computer using a technique known as BaitAndSwitch through the Steam client. "Achieving maximum privileges can lead to much more disastrous consequences,” explains Kravets. “For example, disabling firewall and antivirus, rootkit installation, concealing of process-miner, theft any PC user’s private data - is just a small portion of what could be done."
Until you do and get back with a response based on what you read, I'm done here.
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Exactly, you're done, I've explained everything, I'm done too.
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Many servers have been hacked, including gaming-related ones. It happens all the time. Just one example:
https://www.denofgeek.com/games/uplay/26256/ubisofts-uplay-service-hacked
What about the rest of my post? Do you agree with me there?
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Fortnite already is losing players btw, they lost me over a year ago when i just about had enough of that garbage.
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well the chinese market has insane earning potential so it never hurts to suck off some cocks to get to that sweet money.
all that while you suck off your investors to keep them happy if you do not make enough money
spoiler: there is no such thing as enough money.
also tencent holds around 12% shares of activision blizzard and that is a
drum roll please
chinese company.
either way, i love how everybody plays the wokeness and inclusion cards for the facade these days but at the same time money still rules supreme in the background. wokeness for the coolness but shut up for the money. surprise, surprise...
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If what I read earlier today is correct tencent currently holds just ~ 5% of Blizzard shares but your point still stands.
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yeah it's hard to find some actual numbers. depending on language wiki says this or that.
and you won't find it easily unless you are willing to read through some official financial report longer than my...leg.
either way blizzard had a hard time recently and even a 5% holder pulling out could get them into some unpleasantries.
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I would imagine it's much more about having access to the dollars of the Chinese consumers like South Park perfectly illustrated. 5% shareholder gets angry, the worst that can happen is them dumping the shares on market and price dropping slightly. But getting banned from 100s of millions of potential wallets hurts much more.
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also it seems tencent is one of the gatekeepers to the chinese market.
if you screw with them you can kiss your china business bye bye.
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China isn't capitalistic like many seem to believe, they are fully left-wing where the political elite ruling the government holds all power even over huge corporations. So it's more like allowing your company's holdings to insult China, you can kiss your life bye bye.
Edit: bit like Trump having the right to just murder everyone he dislikes.
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yeah i know, they are red for a reason after all.
however money buys a lot of influence (as seen here) and china has been busy investing its money all over the world. not necessarily to make a profit (a welcome side effect nonetheless) but to gain more influence. and they do have a lot of money.
i might be wrong but i seem to recall that china tried to get into the european utilities market in the past.
and even the overly sleepy european politicians were quick to prevent that.
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First USA funded China by just printing more and more dollars and not having to worry about inflation since they stayed there. Now China is funding Africa with huge investments in infrastructure so they can outsource their factories there. At least that is actually accomplishing something unlike humanitarian charity has ever.
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yes, the new silk road and all that.
interesting times ahead!
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and Tencent (=Chinese government) also holds 40% of Epicgames shares
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Dont forget they are directly working with china to put immortal there, must not compromise relationships, silence the infidels.
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It's quite worrisome how many international companies are willing to bow to chinese cencorship / pressure for the sake of profits. I just hope that for every dollar gained from the chinese market they'll lose 2 they would have otherwise earned in the U.S., Europe and the rest of the world.
The sad thing is I doubt that will happen since (like Rockstar games) Blizzard games are not as exchangeable as most other games. So even IF Blizzard fans in the west are appalled by their actions they'll most likely keep playing their games and buying their booster packs because there simply aren't any real alternatives.
On a related sidenote the latest season of South Park got banned in China because Trey Parker and Matt Stone dared to poke fun at Chinas recent attempts of coercing foreign companies to self-cencorship.
Also China Central Television just announced they won't broadcast NBA preseason games held in the country due to a tweet by the general manager of the Houston Rockets Daryl Morey in which he expressed sympathy with the Hong Kong protesters.
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There are plenty of alternatives for HS tho like MTGA and many have already moved on earlier because the game got so stale and boring.
South Park makers also continued it by "apologizing" to China. Good thing Comedy Central didn't chicken out this time like with https://www.telegraph.co.uk/culture/tvandradio/7643351/The-Simpsons-support-South-Park-writers-in-Mohammed-censorship-row.html
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South Park makers also continued it by "apologizing" to China.
I know. What a brave new world we live in when the people with the most integrity are the creators of a silly little satire comic show that, as they describe it themselves "shouldn't be viewed by anyone".
Edit: I wasn't aware the Mohammed episode actually got censored in the U.S. although I should have probably guessed so since it is literally part of the plot.
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There are plenty of alternatives for HS
I'm not familiar with the virtual trading card scene so I probably overestimated the importance of their classic franchises like Starcraft and underestimated how much money Hearthstone brings in.
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Starcraft is big mostly in Korea I think where they have like dozen national TV channels for it. HS has been their biggest money cow since WoW started going stale and printing all that money afforded them to try out failed things like HoTS.
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I'd imagine Overwatch must be pretty big for them too. Although there is all that sweet TCG booster pack dollars...
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Yeah that too, shame Overwatch is now a symbol for freeing HK and as such banned in China.
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Im not sure if its actualy still big there though, starcraft is pretty much dead, in the west and europe for sure, and remember, the only reason starcraft remastered happened was because of Korea. Yes, HoTS, when they wanted to jump on bandwagons, gotta love when the big boys do it.
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Other alternatives, better ones, being, Infinity Wars, Gwent, Elder Scroll Legends, Yugioh, not Fable Fortune though, not that. Anything is better than Heartstone, its too RNG and pay to win. And yes, its very stale, very boring, very not fun. Honestly they did the guy a favour by cutting him loose. Good old Southpark always has your back.
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How are those better? At least Gwent is nowhere near MTG, looked more like Artifact to me.
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Well, thats just it, their better, but they also come with their own issues... Infinity Wars is dead, Gwent is so boring, and ESL.... who gives a crap about that? Nyeah... trust me, it looks and plays nothing like Artifact, dont even mention that dead cashgrab, it just cannot count.
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I had ordered wc3 reforged due nostalgia but fortunately the refund was instantaneous. Not much I can do but the situation is just ridiculous, firing the casters it's even more baffling.
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Why would you even order that? It doesnt add any content, just makes the game look worse, if you want to feed nostalgia, just buy or download the original dude, its still a good game too.
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Because is the only one I can buy and play with my friends and the original is a pre-order bonus, I even thought the refund wouldn't be accept due playing it...
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No mod would even work on it, all those custom campaigns wouldnt work, you wouldnt be able to play past basic standart multiplayer, which you can still do on the original. Seeing as its not out yet, ofcourse the refund worked, gladdfully.
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Except it'll come with map/mod editors and their intention was to be compatible with old mods.
Anyway, The only custom game I used to play that isn't on Dota2 is Uther party, so isn't that much of a problem, multiplayer was fine but it doesn't matter now. Not giving them my money or time is the least I can do.
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I'm gonna install Diablo 1... And forget the world is the way it is now.
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Meh, the sad thing is that most of this is fake internet outrage. Oh, people may be all mad and care at the time and be like "Hurr durr how dare Blizzard do this thing. I'll boycott their games." Congrats, you won a big victory for the oppressed people of China. Oh wait...
If all of the people going mad on the internet today put that effort into organising a worldwide protest outside Chinese embassies, not only for Hong Kong, but for the atrocities happening to Muslims in Turkestan at the hands of the Chinese government, and other ethnic minorities that they persecute.. it might make the world stand up and listen for real.
Uighur Muslims are targetted in an area that was once in Turkestan, locked in prison camps and tortured until they denounce their faith and turn to atheism. People are dying and some villages are almost completely empty because the people who lived in them are in prison camps. I didn't know about how bad it was myself until recently. The Chinese government prevent the media from reporting these things. Some families don't even know if their loved ones are alive or dead because instead of returning people who die to their families they often cremate the bodies to hide the body count. There is a lot going on over there.
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You have a very optimistic view of how protesting on the street works against China.
It happens in China? Drive over them with a tank and ship rest to concentration camps
It happens in some other country? Threaten to not give that country any more cheap crap and their government will also ignore the cries of its citizens.
You know something is really wrong when Turkey gets worried about human rights. https://edition.cnn.com/2019/02/10/asia/turkey-china-uyghur-xinjiang-intl/index.html
Beijing has repeatedly denied it is detaining Uyghurs against their will, calling the camps "vocational training centers" and suggesting they are providing education.
Arbeit macht frei and so on.
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Might not work against China itself, but might wake up our own dozy governments and make more people aware of what's happening over there. China have it way too easy. Yes, you're right, every other country who does shit like this have strict trade sanctions imposed. But China just continues getting richer.
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And how will being more aware of it help people of Hong Kong? China doesn't need us. We need China.
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Yeah, we desperately need someone to take our jobs and give us cheap crap in trade.
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Actually we do. A lot of stuff is nowdays made in China. Most likely the phone you're using have parts made in China. Most of our clothes are made in China. Even the pencil I use to write is made in China.
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And? That means the companies "needed" China to boost their profits for shareholders. Other than that we really don't need them. Like Trump is trying to achieve, we would be much better off with the factories back here to provide jobs for more people. Sure things might cost a bit more but they would also be of much higher quality and last longer.
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You're absolutely right about us being better off, but big companies have never cared about people. I mean if companies actually cared about people they would have never moved those factories to begin with. And they won't be moving them back as long as it means more money in their pockets. Only thing we can really do is try to vote with our wallets. Only thing is do enough people care about the issue to make change happen?
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What about the muslim people of (former) Turkestan who are locked in what are basically concentration camps. If you read the entirety of my post, I wasn't just talking about Hong Kong, which pales in comparison to what the Chinese are doing elsewhere.
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During the WWII a lot of german's were aware of jews being shipped to concentration camps, but did their awareness help the victims of the holocaust? No. What helped them were the people who hid them, people who helped them escape the country and people who freed them from the camps. Awareness is as useful as sending thoughts and prayers to victims of accidents. Yes for action to begin you need awareness first, but in itself it's not much use. My awareness of the blight of muslim's of Turkestan is worthless to them. They still suffer no matter how aware I am of their suffering.
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I'm the sort of person who has been out there on the streets protesting for things I believe in. I think sitting at home on my arse and thinking about it and sending my thoughts and prayers, while I know there's an organised protest happening isn't helping.
If we didn't take to the streets in protest, our local hospital would be closed down. I know that's a small and local thing compared to all this, but it's still a win that wouldn't have happened if people didn't stick up for what they want.
But, in the past month on Twitter, I have seen a woman from that area of China who lives in America attempting to organise protests to try and get America to listen and put some pressure on China on releasing her people. It had a limp following. Imagine if all those people who are currently outraged joined her.
If we all thought like that, that nothing can help, governments would just steamroll the rest of us on a whole slew of issues.
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Theres nothing fake about it, people dont like what blizzard did, thats it.
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It kinda is though. Whenever something goes down on the internet, no matter how noble the cause, sure, there are people who genuinely care. But there is a larger number of people who only care about internet drama and an excuse to go and abuse someone over the internet, whether its a game dev who took a deal with EPIC, or something like what happened here. It's a pattern of bandwagoning. Then the whole thing dies down and people forget all about it after a couple of days. They are no more aware of what's actually going on, they just had fun while it lasted.
So, my point is that they should actually educate themselves about everything China is doing to its ethnic minorities and raise awareness about it. Some big outrage like this is probably the perfect opportunity to clue more people in rather than simply trolling a few Reddit pages. I'm not saying anyone here is involved in the trolling, but when you read some of the comments on Reddit etc, it's absolute muck.
So the guy broke competition rules prohibiting political speech? Maybe Blizzard could have handled it better. Maybe they did in fact bow down to pressure from China. That I don't know, it's just speculation. But at the end of the day... yes, they were way too harsh, even if he did break the rules of the competition.
(I even got blacklisted for being the devils advocate and making people think a bit. lol)
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(im glad you did because nobody needs or wants devil advocates. lol.)
You can talk about noble causes however much you want, the matter of the fact is, nobody liked this what they did, period.
Yes they could of handled it better but they didnt care to. Yes they did bow down, it was their decision, not chinas. He didnt break any rules, that rule was a deus ex machina, they pulled it litearly out of nowhere, i heard that it was a 2019 rule, coincidence i think not. You know what else blizzard could of handled better? Diablo Immortal. Overwatch balance. Project cancelations, Hearthstone greed. Heroes of the Storm sacrifice and development. etc. their not the good guys.
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(For the record. I'm glad they did too. The funny thing with that is... you never know who did it, so if they do it to make a point, it doesn't register. Get triggered over someone voicing their opinions on an internet forum, you deserve not to be able to enter the GAs of those you BL xD)
Yeah, nobody liked it. That's fine. But some of the carry on is ridiculous. Even you have to admit that.
As for the other games, I have absolutely no idea about any of them. Only Blizzard game I play is Hearthstone, and I gave up giving them money a long time ago. Ever since they started bringing out new expansions in quick succession to make money, I was done. My friends were done too. I still play here and there, but as a free player.
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No its not ridicolus, you know what is ridicolus? China oppresing freedom of speech in 2019, as if it were like, i dunno, 1400 or something. If you dont know anything about the games, maybe its time you did, or maybe its not but you have to understand, there is trouble at every front for them, its not just Hearthstone. Good, good that you gave up, you shouldnt have given money to a greedy pay to win RNG loot box game in the first place though. Yup, nothing drives higher revenue than replacing the best cards with the new best cards which cannot be bought with the bullshit currency. You still play? Maybe you should explore other options inbetween those times, theres Infinity Wars, Gwent, Elder Scrolls Legends...and thats about it, dont think Fable Fortune is good at all from what ive red, no wonder they stopped updating that one.
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I never said China oppressing freedom of speech was okay. But they're doing it and they're not doing it because of one company. They are doing it because all of our governments allow them to do it by trading with them on a grand scale. If any other country did the things they do, they'd put pressure on them.
The ridiculous behavior is the amount of online trolling. People sending threats and malicious attacks. People even cyber attacked the God's Unchained game. What, was that for shits and giggles? There are people out there who are taking this whole thing to another level and yes, yes it's ridiculous.
As for me once being a paid player of Hearthstone, I'm not sure why that upsets you. I mean, I am not one of those players who spends 100s of euro on one game. When a new expansion came out, I'd buy a few packs, but also use up the gold I'd gathered for a long time in the Arena to win packs, get back gold, and you could win a lot of packs that way once you keep winning an average of 5 games.
As for now. I don't have a lot of options when it comes to those type of games since I have a mac. I really liked HS, and yes, I still play on and off. Granted, I haven't logged in a couple of weeks. It's just not the same, since the meta moves on too fast to keep up with the morons who drop big bucks on it.
I have one friend who is a top-level player and he never dropped a cent on Hearthstone. He's just really good and has held Legend rank. So, it was possible to play it free. But even he has given up admitting that now it is too hard to keep up with the spenders.
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China is a powerful country whose authoritarian leaders are doing terrible things. It's a shame that these companies are bending to their will.
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They're bending to their will because we're all in China's pockets.
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You might think so, but a lot of items you've bough are either made in China or have parts in them that were made in China.
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So by your logic, anyone who uses an AK47, is transformed into a pure blooded Russian... okay man, makes sense. Im still gonna have to say to you, not me though. We can use whatever we want, doesnt mean it makes us them. Like, i recently ate some german chocolate that was gifted to my mommy, i can certainly tell you i havent adopted the german language or accent haha.
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Well, do you wear clothes with any sort of cotton perhaps? That's already one of the biggest reasons (plus the cheap labor) why you can afford whatever you're wearing since even if you don't have clothes with cotton, wide availability of those materials will lower the prices for the whole industry, especially at such scales.
Do you eat rice? Do you perhaps use a car, a phone, a computer or a TV? Do you use medicine? Do you wear shoes? Have you used any plastics? Have you got products that are made of almost any metal?
Sure, I'm not saying you wouldn't have these things otherwise, but I'm saying, odds are you can afford even a quarter of these things is thanks to China.
Fuck China and what they're doing, but if you think you're not dependent on them, then you're just ignorant of the truth since there is literally no way, yes, it's literally unavoidable, that you're not in their pocket to some extent.
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Lol, this isnt about us being depended on them or anything, take it down a notch.
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Huh? But the global economy literally depends on the biggest fish in the sea.
How do you say you're not dependent on China while most products are available to you only because China's trading it and exporting it. You as a Latvian should know that the biggest exporters basically own your ass. You're in their pocket figuratively.
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Glory to communistic china am i right comrade?
Anyways, you may say that but things, times, they are changing, and if this escalates, maybe that will change too. Well will see. I hope you have fun finding ways to defend and shill for the red fatherland though, i heard its very oppresive and anti civil right at this time of the year.
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Yet, I'm not defending them. I literally said "Fuck China". But just because I hate their tyrannical government, doesn't mean that the world stops needing goods to be affordable.
I'm not even saying that we should tolerate them for the cheap goods. In fact, I'm saying the opposite. But you assume I defend them instead. Fuck it, whatever, you do you. Just know your argument's based on lies and literally you saying that I'm happy with illegal organ harvesting. Kind of a dick move to say the least.
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Sorry, i cant hear you over these chinese imported goods im using that im supposed to kiss chinas feet for.
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I lived in China for a year and I had friends from both side but I never really understood the issue.
Hong Kong people asked for independence and don't like to speak Mandarin while they also wanted to vote in China and free pass for the customs.
But my knowledge is based on people I have talked the issue about and it has been almost 6 years.
Can someone share some insight, give some update?
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china has authoritarian rule. hong kong was a democracy. people of hong kong want democracy.
also, hong kong didn't reject Mandarin, they speak Cantonese, a different dialect.
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I corrected my sentence.
They don't reject to speak Mandarin but if I spoke Mandarin to shopkeepers in Hong Kong I had the feeling they understand me but they don't want to answer. Maybe I am wrong.
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the west was going to make china more free. somehow china made multinational corporations push for less freedom.
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China didnt do anything this time, Blizzard just wanted to keep that relationship mint.
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of course china did something. they threaten business if company doesn't comply. ie. if someone says things china doesn't like, fire them, otherwise loose your business in china.
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Some call to boycott blizzard, and i laugh at them why? Look how boycott Anthem ended, and BL3 boycott ended.
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I feel like most people who scream boycott do it just for attention and then secretly continue to play their games. Also I don't think enough people care to have any effect on Blizzard and also boycotting Blizzard won't help the people of Hong Kong.
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No, people scream that to voice their opinion and feelings on the matter, you can feel free to follow them or not, they probably dont play their games either, its realy easy to do when it comes to Blizzard, not like they have a hundred ongoing games today. Yup, the casual crowd doesnt care per ussual so ofcourse it wont have an too much of an effect.
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Why? Because this isnt their first offense and certainly wont be their last, people just need more help to wake up. There wasnt any boycott for Anthem and even if there was, casuals and normies dont see that crap, they live a life outside the itnernet, forums, youtubes, they live a life on console very isolationalisty, they see a new big fancy game cover, their instantly sold. Theres more casuals and hardcorists. Same goes for BL3, there wasnt any boycott, you cannot reach the bigger audience. Blizzard will be affected more by a boyccot because of their product is distributed but perhaps not too much.
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Jokes on them though, Anthem and BL3 are pretty terrible so they paid the price for capitulating.
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Why? Because it's about personal beliefs. If you support Blizzard, then you support what they did. Feel free to throw your arms up in the air and pretend it doesn't matter, yet EA's stock price fell after Anthem, they had to issue a public address and the game fell short of EA's expectations sales wise.
Borderlands 3's boycott literally led attention to financial misconduct, bad work environments and led to almost complete widespread disdain towards Randy Pitchford.
So yeah, they ended pretty damn well.
Also, might as well give up with everything then. That's why no one investigates murders either. Some people got away and so why even bother after that.
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I am surprised. I mean, Blizzard, who willfully sacrificed the Diablo franchise to make the next entry specifically for the Chinese market, willingly angering all Western fans, is now taking the side of the Chinese government in a public press release? Shocking. I can fully understand why it surprised so many people. /s
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Oh i can't wait to see, how bigger disaster will be Blizzcon this year. People in WoW allready are mad because Vulpera will be next allied race for horde, and the scream. "FUCKING FURRY! REEE!" xD
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Funny they would do that, considering for ages there were already playable Worgen (bigger furry bait honestly from what ive seen), Tauren (there are people out there who love cows, trust me), Necrophilia with the Forsaken, and something else maybe i think... wonder if people were screaming reee at worgen back then, probably not. Foxes trigger people, lol.
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Hahaha! I burst out laughing reading this comment.
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Do you mean the phone game? If so, why was that targeting the Chinese market specifically?
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Because blizzard doesnt have anything going on in china except maybe for starcraft or something, that was the reason for the remaster, so they wanna dip deeper into that microntrasanction accepted haven and its realy easy for them too, all they did was hire a studio to make it for them and just announce it in the west for no reason.
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Since the mobile gamer market in china is as big as normal gaming is in the rest of the world. Diablo Immortals was aimed at trying to capitalize on them more so than to make current fans happy.
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China is the biggest player in the mobile game market. They make up around a quarter of the global market. If you see some franchise going mobile, it is because of China, the other countries are tangential.
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Wtf, why are people making games out of Xi Jinping?
This comment has lowered Zeruel132's social credit score by 25 points.
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Yeah especially when there is a much manlier bear they could be using.
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Fair enough. At least they are still planning to make a mainline Diablo game.
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They didnt sacrifice anything, they outsourcingly hired a chinese studio to make a clone of their own game but make it Diablo themed.
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I don't know all old blizzard games. I only played starcraft (+brood war) and diablo 1 and 2.
And when I compare them to new starcraft and new diablo - I have to say that they sacrificed a lot. And all for bigger profit. Blizzard is basically completely different company now.
Money > game quality.
I wouldn't be surprised if they will stop releasing/supporting PC games at all at one point - to focus only on mobile market - because it's more profitable now. And in that case - Chinese market is really important.
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Yup, for one, they sacrificed style. Going from grity, dark and straight, to cartoony, bright and crooked.
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It's easy to call out Blizzard for bowing to Chinese censorship in order to protect its profits and growth in China. But by the same measure, the vast majority of us here happily continue to use products made by cheap Chinese labour, in order to keep our costs down and our lifestyles sustainable. A bit hypocritical isn't it?
Probably an unpopular take, but there it is.
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Maybe you should go live in china, you seem to realy love them.
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I guess ignorance of hypocrisy is also bliss.
Please quote the section where I profess my undying love for China. Maybe it's the bit where I speak about Chinese censorship?
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And defending the aggresors is the best way to show lotaly, which is also bliss.
Please read the top of the topic where it shows that the aggresors are fully and only in the wrong. Maybe if you if kept it up they would cover the travel cost for you. Im sure it would be fabolus for you to get away from us unpopular hypocrits.
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Lotaly?
I'm pointing out that we (me included) are also in the wrong, not them being in the right.
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Good luck finding any mass produced electronic device, that has no parts made in China.
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There you go: https://euro-sd.com/2019/06/news/13479/ultra-secure-smartphone-made-in-finland/
Edit: I guess not since it has Snapdragons and such, got fooled by their marketing. :)
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Snapdragons are apparently made in Korea.
But I doubt there are no components made in China (camera, battery, screen, other chips, capacitors, resistors, etc.)
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Who would buy Chinese capacitors when you can have Japanese ones. Korea and Japan have plenty of electronics industry that makes actual quality parts while China focuses on cheap crap, but I guess many of them have outsourced to China as well. Some could have factories in neighboring countries like Vietnam tho and if you don't count Taiwan as China it would also help finding something.
But this is exactly what we should be fixing, bring factories, job and wealth back to your own country instead of funding some mad dictator's world conquest with the money.
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But this is exactly what we should be fixing, bring factories, job and wealth back to your own country instead of funding some mad dictator's world conquest with the money.
Well, this would make almost everything ridiculously expensive and basically kill world economy. Or maybe you're fine with paying around 5000% extra on nearly every single product. I personally couldn't afford that. But if you want to only truly talk about manufacturing, then it won't matter anyways since you'd basically cost China around $10 for every $100 that the local consumer would end up paying. I mean, it's a hit, but you're basically cutting your leg off just to scratch China a bit.
Not sure what "wealth" you think can be "brought back".
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We would be perfectly fine with just not buying all the useless junk because it's cheap. We would save a bit and buy a product that will last 10 times longer than the cheap one and be fully repairable if it ever breaks. This would also be way better for the ecology, because less useless crap producing tons of toxic waste that gets dumped in rivers would be made in countries with no human rights. Instead the factories could be tightly controlled.
The trillions of dollars USA has pumped into China for example could never have left the country, so everyone would have a well paying job and the country's economy would be in much better shape. Currently China owns 5% of USA's debt and could crash their economy any time they wanted by cashing it all in at once.
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We would be perfectly fine with just not buying all the useless junk because it's cheap.
Well, then that 5000% would turn into around 25000% because we're talking about completely the same products here, just one produced locally with local materials. How do you come up with $2500-$5000 for one phone? It will age just as quickly or just technology will stagnate. Either or, the quality won't matter here anyways. I guess some strong gorilla glass or something? But it's not like that's important for the products.
This would also be way better for the ecology, because less useless crap producing tons of toxic waste that gets dumped in rivers would be made in countries with no human rights. Instead the factories could be tightly controlled.
The reason they're regulated in the Western world is exactly because we're in a good position right now. Where we can afford those losses. Where the economy's quite alive and active. You can't have heavy regulations if profit margins are around 1% on even the biggest products.
The trillions of dollars USA has pumped into China for example could never have left the country, so everyone would have a well paying job and the country's economy would be in much better shape.
Not how the economy works though. Those trillions, first of all, are not "pumped into China", that's just not how money works. But also, the US is literally in debt to China, so the US would lose out if they stopped working with them. Also, those "trillions" aren't handouts. They're trades. That's why people can afford things. That's why there are global markets for everything. Because you can't do it all while being self-sufficient. The modern world can't run on agricultural societies. Your offer is to basically stop modern industry and to literally go back to an agrarian society since most countries aren't even self-sufficient with food, let alone with making iPhones. And if trade's closed, then that means no extra export income for anyone else either. I guess wars for resources is the better alternative here, since that will undoubtedly happen. Not even a slight question about it. That's the main reason why we live in the most peaceful time in human history now. Because we have access to everything at a reasonable cost. People want phones, well, for that you'll need gold. Well, to get gold, we can either mine it locally for around $500 per 100 grams since the resources have dried up or we can have a "quick war" and get the huge stockpile in the other country instead.
This is classic economy here. There's a reason we're so developed and there's a reason we (the western world) are so rich right now and it's not because we lagged behind everyone else like China was doing for the past 50 years.
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Slavery was also a great way to get cheap cotton, but nobody thinks it should be still used. Yet they just outsource the slavery, human rights violations and ecological destruction to out of sight and that seems to be fine. $2.5k for a phone? People are buying $25k cars and $250k houses not to speak of $999 monitor stands without any problems, so why would buying a domestic phone be one? Especially since domestic economy would be booming and everyone earning more as a result. They would maybe skip buying a new model every year and throwing old one into the trash just because the new one is 5% better in some specs with no real improvements and buy a phone every 3-5 years. Which many are doing even now since very few really need those brand new models or can afford updating all the time.
Your idea of global economy seems to be focused only on abusing poor or totalitarian countries for cheap slave labor, why would that be needed if someone in USA wants to buy a German car or someone in Germany wanting to buy a Finnish phone. Trade would be booming and companies would focus on quality instead of fast profits on the expense of everything else. Only ones losing in this scenario might be the 1% who can't get even richer so fast any more. Regular people would have well paying jobs and afford buying the bit more expensive items their friends and relatives made in the next factory over.
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Well, this is just a whole load of assumptions that it will take way too long to just explain one at a time. It's almost like I don't think Canada's just filled with slave labor and that China isn't literally the only trade partner of every country.
Let's just agree to disagree.
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Since when did Canada even have slaves? I was under the impression that it was USA only at that point in history.
I just have lived in the 80s when every factory wasn't in Asia yet, and buying stuff made in Finland or West Germany was always far superior in quality to anything made in China. Back then economy was growing fast and people had jobs, now jobs have moved to Asia and we're left in a cycle of repeating depressions and unemployment. So my scenario was a reality before all this globalization started full force.
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Yeah, I'm sorry, but this is completely missing the point here and we're having such a fundamental difference here that we can't even start a good conversation with it since we're talking about different things here.
Was a pleasure though, regardless. It just doesn't always work out.
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More like we're talking about different things, global human rights vs personal greed to own as much crap as possible. But if you think there is nothing more to say, thanks for all the fish.
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Okay... didn't know this was like a real actual "I want to win an argument" type of thing.
It's fun to "conversationally duke it out" sometimes, but honestly, I'm trying to grow out of it. Malicious bullshit like this won't fly with me anymore. I thought it was a conversation, but you wouldn't have said such shit if you were here to talk.
Honestly, just kinda sad to see from you :/
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You were the one saying that if we stop using cheap slave labor in China etc we're going to suffer because we can't afford to buy a new phone every year or did I somehow misunderstand that point? If I didn't, that means you value cheap electronics more than human rights. If I did, then I'm sorry about it.
No need to win anything here, all I want is clarity so arguments wont end because of misunderstandings. If you think that is sad then we really have nothing to talk about.
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You were the one saying that if we stop using cheap slave labor in China etc we're going to suffer because we can't afford to buy a new phone every year or did I somehow misunderstand that point?
No. Your point:
But this is exactly what we should be fixing, bring factories, job and wealth back to your own country instead of funding some mad dictator's world conquest with the money.
replied with:
Well, this would make almost everything ridiculously expensive and basically kill world economy.
Don't make assumptions. All it took was needing to look at the comment.
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I ask questions because I can assume things wrong.
Well, this would make almost everything ridiculously expensive and basically kill world economy. Or maybe you're fine with paying around 5000% extra on nearly every single product. I personally couldn't afford that.
I still don't see how that is my point or means anything other than what I said it does, but since it seems to be so, sorry once again.
World economy was perfectly fine before globalization, so why would it be killed by removing it?
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World economy was perfectly fine before globalization, so why would it be killed by removing it?
Come on man, you can't be serious with this point. Tech, diplomacy, world policies, available resources, demanded resources, population, currencies, politics, literally the fact that the world wasn't even modernized for the most part. Transport, sources of energy, resource extraction, labor, demanded product technologies.
This is one of the first things you learn when you study economics. You're oversimplifying the problem so much that it's just not how it works. Like, that list that I wrote you? Each one of these should be expanded to around 500 words/2 pages each just to even start getting an introduction on why life just isn't that simple. Why it's not just "Factory here mean no money out".
I'm sorry, but you can take an ethical high road and pretend I don't care. Or you can claim that "the past" has anything even near common with what our world currently is. Or you can do whatever you want. I try and avoid this annoying answer, but I just have to say it here. You need to look this up on your own time and dive into this subject more before trying to have an argument about this. It's an interesting subject and I personally loved my time with it. I might even be able to get access to my old econ books, if you really want to. Though, two out of the five are in Estonian, so I doubt those two would help. But there's around 4000 pages on this subject (around 3000 on this very same exact subject even). I'm not claiming that I'm very knowledgeable on this. In fact, I only know the basics and I don't know of the actual specific policies. But I've done more than my fair share of research into the general topic.
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I'm not taking any ethical high roads, personally I couldn't care less about the lives of random people. If anything I would be happy if 90% Asians and Africans got wiped out from some natural disaster to stop their uncontrollable breeding which is destroying the Earth. I'm merely curious if people can value cheap products from slave labor and human rights at the same time, since that's a paradox. So you should also stop assuming I have some feelings invested in this like many trolls keep telling me.
Sometimes things really are that simple and ignoring them doesn't make them go away. Increase in tech doesn't explain cheap slave labor needed, it would explain loss of jobs to robots. All the rest of that is just 1% agreeing with each other to get richer, nothing to do with 99% of humans. Overcomplexifying simple things doesn't make them true either, it just means you want to avoid the real issue by going in circles like a politician.
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This is an extremely bigoted and uninformed take from what I can only assume to be a white person. How are you still allowed to spout things like that on here? How long has the west benefited from enslaving, colonizing, extracting, and pillaging resources from asia and africa and continue to do so? Even if you aren't rich, how can you deny that you indirectly benefit from all that wealth that was stolen from those continents (through welfare and / or government institutions designed to exploit these people). So poor white people are exploited but poor asian / african people should be wiped out? You're not even recognizing that poor people reproduce more because they lack the resources to better educate themselves regarding personal financial responsibility, and how that leads back to institutions that are fine with keeping people ignorant so they can exploit them. As a person of Asian descent, I take offense to this. Is anoybody else seeing this?!?!
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So you think the problem of overpopulation destroying our environment is just a racist joke? It had nothing at all to do with who lives on those continents, just the huge number of people. I wouldn't care if it was 90% of all people on Earth either if that makes you feel any better.
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You were the one who singled out specific races of people, not me. The only joke I see is the nonsense BS you're spouting. Seriously, why is this kind of behavior allowed here? You talk about hating the 1% but you are proposing a mass culling of 90% of the population? And Europe and the rest of the western world still has a larger carbon footprint than the poorer countries you so hate
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Read again. African or Asian aren't races, they are people who live on a certain continent. In fact only racists think there is more than 1 human race to begin with.
Next you can tell me which countries in Asia or Africa has Finland ever colonized or otherwise exploited? We're more of a former colony ourselves for our neighbors if anything.
You're the racist here for lumping all white people into the same pool of guilt for things some white people did in history.
And where did I propose culling of anyone? Stop making things up, I was talking about natural catastrophes happening.
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Finland might not have directly colonized any asian or african country, but any western country has indirectly benefitted through trade, extractivism, labor exploitation, or wealth amassment in said countries, all part of the sovereign wealth you as a citizen benefit from. If you fail to recognize that, then you definitely are part of the problem. Your excuse is paperthin when you know the majority of people who live in those continents aren't white
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If you continue to pit race against race you're not part of the problem, you're the problem. Do you take collective responsibility for every crime against nature China is committing because you're an Asian? Are you at fault for the genocide, torture and organ harvesting China is doing? If you don't personally take responsibility for every action any Asian has done, you're a hypocrite.
I'm sure my poor farmer ancestors benefited a ton from colonies other countries had. We built our society from nearly scratch after beating the Soviet Union in a landwar, since we had to start building factories to pay them the ransom.
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If you are suggesting A mass culling of a continent where my parents did originate from, then yes, I take it upon me to respond. You are part of the problem. Yes, Finns have benefited from an inbalanced global trade system which speculates low on the value of the resources (human or otherwise) that everyone extracts from everyone else. That is a fact, since capitalism was invented in europe. I am not excusing the atrocities that happen in any country, not by a longshot, you seem to have the inability to directly address the points I laid out
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Where did I suggest anything like that? Learn to read first. Arguing against something I never said is quite pointless.
If I'm to blame for every crime any European, so as an Asian you're to blame for everything China does, OK then. Why are you suggesting genocide of minorities in China? Why do you support having no human rights? Why are you suggesting to mass organ harvest the poor people so the rich can just destroy theirs and get replacements?
You really are just a pathetic racist, nothing more. All white people and now Europeans are to blame for everything anyone ever did, but the same doesn't seem to apply to Asian people because you're one of them. How does this make sense in your head at all?
All those bad things have been done and are being done by the 1% profiting from the suffering from others. Not regular poor people in any country.
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I did not say every white person was racist, you made that assumption yourself. If you fail to recognize that you directly or indirectly benefit from an imbalanced global system then proceed to call for a culling of certain continents (which, by the way, still has less carbon footprint per capita compared to the western world), then you are being one. Simple as that
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I never said you did. Please stop making things up that you assume I said but never did. You're still the only racist here.
WHERE THE FUCK IS THE CALL FOR CULLING ALREADY? Maybe this gets your attention to that I never suggested, called or in any other way tried to achieve or promote any kind of culling of anyone. Culling of minorities is what China is doing by the millions and as an Asian you're indirectly responsible for all of it, based on your own logic. So you're still the only racist genociding organ harvester here, still based purely on your own logic.
What part of natural disaster don't you understand? Or are you suggesting that the White Man is so powerful that he can summon earthquakes, tsunamis and such?
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So it's perfectly fine to wish harm on someone as long as it's by an act of God like a natural disaster? By that definition any religious person is in the right to terrorize people if they were compelled by their God. You're the only racist I see who fail to see they are still more privileged than most of the world. I guess non-recognition is really the way to keep everything you want to hide. Is anyone else seeing this?!?! Bueller?
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Where did I wish harm on anyone? Stop making things up that you assume I said already, please.
So you deny any responsibility for things other Asians have done but yet you think every European is responsible for every thing other Europeans have done. And you don't see the hypocritical racism in this. Are the Asians some kind of masterrace in your imagination that's absolved of all responsibilities? Or why should I be treated any differently than you? Is it still only because where we were born? Or the color of our skin?
Finland is the #7 aider of poor countries, please try to get this and stop making up things to blame us for.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_development_aid_country_donors#Net_official_development_assistance_by_country_as_a_percentage_of_GNI
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Who is making things up and who is denying their privilege? Certainly not me. I am not even calling the Finns racist (I happen to like most that I've met), I'm calling YOU racist because of the things you fail to recognize and the idiocy you spout. And by the way, Asia isn't just China
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I've also liked all Asians I have met and them generally. Still has nothing at all to do with overpopulation being our biggest problem if we want to continue living on Earth. China is a big part of Asia and they are doing the most genociding, torturing and organ harvesting out of all Asian countries so I just used them as an example to show how hypocritical your racist anger towards Europeans and white people in general is.
I'm calling you a racist because that's what you are, treating people differently because of where they were born or the color of their skin. I treat all humans equally, except the ones I personally care about. So once again, I would be happy if 100% of Americans and Russians died in some natural disaster. I would be happy if 90% of all people on Earth died in some natural disaster. I wouldn't be happy because people got killed but happy for Mother Earth because the overpopulation killing her would be gone. Can you finally understand that?
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That is not what you said, clear as day, stop backpedaling and defending how idiotic both your previous and current propositions are. The biggest destroyer of the environment remains the consumption and lifestyle of the western world, yet no one is calling for disaster to hit anywhere (just you, pretty much).
Yes, I believe the richest have a responsibility to protect the most vulnerable, and even if you don't recognize it, you are part of that group. I realize that I am speaking from a position of privilege myself. I also realize that doesn't entitle me to shit on the people below me, or wish any harm come to them
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Sigh, here we go again with you making up things that I said or meant instead of bothering to listen to what I'm actually saying. I'm not backpedaling anywhere, I have been saying the exact same thing all along, but in your racist anger towards anyone white you ignore what I say and attack your own imagination of it instead.
I'm not calling any disaster anywhere, because unlike you still seem to believe I don't have the power to summon them at will. Neither does any other white man anywhere. Try to get this already. Even if I really wished, which I still don't, for that to happen, nothing at all would happen. So what exactly are you trying to blame me for?
So the poor have no responsibility at all? They can do whatever they want with the excuse that some rich person did something bad during the history? Funny ideology there. The rich people who colonized and plundered other countries are still the 1% who make poor people everywhere suffer because of their personal greed. It's not the white worker who decided to move their factory to China so they can avoid all environmental and human rights controls, it was the 1% rich owners of that factory. In your anger towards the rich people you for racist reasons put every white person together with them in the same category. Try to get that you should be angry at the rich, no matter where they were born or what color their skin is? Not at people in general based on those racist factors.
Also that carbon footprint crap, for example India is 4.5 times worse culprit for that than Finland is by the only acceptable measurement, CO2/km^2. 5 million Finns aren't destroying the Earth when our lands are mostly forest and our nature is among the cleanest there is. Chinese people love to come here because they can finally have air that's breathable and not cuttable with a knife.
You also completely seem to ignore that I was the one talking about better human rights for Asian people in the first place. So that makes me apparently hate them and want them dead. I guess that makes sense through your racist glasses. Meanwhile you have no problems with Asians genociding, torturing and organ harvesting because as an Asian you apparently profit from it by your own logic.
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You're the one who wished for the death of 90% of the population through a natural disaster, you don't see anything wrong with that?
You wanna talk about carbon footprint? It's 11.8 per capita for finns and even with larger emissions for Indians it's only 1.8. And manufacturing around the world revolves around western consumption, so it can't even be directly attributed to them,
Clearly, since you care about the human rights of the remaining 10 percent, it should forgive you for the 90 percent you are wishing ill on (and that involves the non Asians and Africans too).
Spread your hate elsewhere
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STOP MAKING THINGS I SAID UP IN YOUR OWN HEAD PLEASE.
This is getting really annoying when you completely ignore everything I say. I didn't wish for anything at all. Get that finally please? I see plenty of wrong in making up things and then attacking them, but that's what you are doing. I don't wish for anyone to get killed, but if it does happen, I'll be happy. Can you finally get the difference? Read this very slowly as many times as it takes: I DO NOT WISH FOR ANYONE TO DIE. That idea is still coming from only your own imagination, not anything I have said. Or at least get the fact that wishing for nature to do something is totally pointless, since it has no effect on anything, so why bother doing that?
You're still confusing per capita and per km^2. Try to learn the difference before talking more.
You're still the only one spreading racist hate here. so you go do that elsewhere. Maybe you can find more minorities to genocide with you best pal Xi since you're both Asian and apparently rich. And you have absolutely no problems with genocide since you not even once protested against it.
I realize that I am speaking from a position of privilege myself. I also realize that doesn't entitle me to shit on the people below me, or wish any harm come to them
So you're part of the 1% who is causing all these problems and you think there are people below you ... and you still don't get why you are the racist here. Entitled much?`Checked your own privileges lately? You're far more to blame for this than me then. So what have you done to help poor people? Attack people wishing they had better human rights online? Yeah that will help them greatly I'm sure. Or was it my wish for human rights that in reality angered you because as a rich person you want to profit from their suffering while blaming it all on the white man?
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Who is the one making things up?
You refuse to acknowledge that anything other than class determines your privilege (and even depending on where you live, that is entirely relative)
It's ok you don't admit how your rhetoric isn't racist, because it's perfectly clear to me and most everyone else.
Go talk to a wall. I'm done explaining things to a racist
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I'm just trying to show you by example how your logic works. Does it feel nice when I make things up? No? So why do you keep doing the exact same thing to me? Why can't you stop being hostile and finally listen to what I'm saying? Then we could discuss about things that we have actually said, unlike now.
Yes I refuse to acknowledge some mysterious collective guilt a person has just because of where he was born or the color of his skin. Yet you're still trying to push your racist agenda while pretending to be holier than thou. Open your eyes and think for a moment why exactly do you think all white people are responsible for everything bad in history? Meanwhile people living outside of Europe or of other colors are completely innocent for anything and can do anything they want? There can only be racists reasons for thinking like that.
Are you as an Asian responsible for the plundering and murdering the Mongol horde did in Europe? And why not since that's exactly what kind of blame you're trying to pin on me. With your logic every Asian is responsible for that.
It's also perfectly clear to everyone how much you hate all white people. And then have the nerve to call others racist. You could at least call me with the right term, what you're trying to say is misanthrope, not racist. I would be happy if 100% of humans died and some better life form took over next. Well not after that but at the general idea.
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You are trying to make it like I absolve any sin a non white person commits when all I've been saying is privilege is tied to accountability, and that includes, class, race, gender, and geographic location. Again, am I blaming you for Russia? Since by your logic, I should too (Since you equate the Chinese attrocities everywhere).
Yes, the more freedoms you have, I believe the more responsible you should be for the people below you. That doesn't mean you shouldn't count on personal responsibility, but what opportunities you have to choose how you live do play a factor.
Again, more racist rhetoric from you.
It seems you are the one trying to absolve yourself of some responsibility
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I'm not trying to do that, you are. Stop being hostile and attacking me because of the color of my skin already and we could have an actual discussion. Is that really impossible for you to do? Do you really hate all white people that much? You're the one equating me with every crime every white person has done in the history, I was merely trying to make the point how silly that idea is by doing the exact same thing to you as an Asian.
people below you.
Here you go again saying you're so high and mighty that there are people below you. Then I'm the racist because I treat every human equally. Must be nice to be so entitled that there are people below you. Do you use them as stepping stones or what? Also
class, race, gender, and geographic location
Which ones of these make those other people be below you? Is it people of the other gender? Of different skin color? Or living in other countries? Those things seem to matter a lot to you while to me they are irrelevant, only actions of a person determine their worth.
What exactly would you want me to do so I could absolve this imagined collective guilt I have? Would wishing for better human rights everywhere be a nice start? Oh wait, I already did that and you thought it's racist. What next? How can I use my freedom to help people? Can I ship a portion of it to Asia so people there would be free too? Or how does this freedom equals responsibility thing work?
You're by your own words very privileged so what exactly have you done to help those poor people? Nothing but attack me is my guess.
I'm not trying to absolve myself of anything because there is absolutely nothing to absolve. Simple as that. Every person is only responsible for their own actions and if you really want to take it that far, at most the actions of their ancestors. For both I have absolutely nothing I need to absolve (at least of that magnitude, not claiming to be a saint either).
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"You're by your own words very privileged so what exactly have you done to help those poor people? Nothing but attack me is my guess."
I work, but I'm also part of a non-profit who goes to these countries you wanted to wipe out trying to make sure university graduates have skill parity with the west STEM-wise.
I also did peace corps, and along with other ex peace corps people, help farmers in latin america and southeast asia sell their product directly to western countries without dealing with a middleman.
I am actually in Asia right now.
Have volunteered across 4 continents.
I'm not gonna continue to toot my own horn
But want to point out that every person has a responsibility in the community at large, and if your consumption choices affect how people in Africa can't even afford to buy the stuff they make, then you bear some responsibility for that too. Your selfish "I'm only responsible for myself" is pretty much what your hated 1% does to the rest of us. I don't doubt if you had the chance you'd screw over other people too.
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I still wanted to wipe out no countries, how many times do I need to repeat this until it sinks into your thick head? You're still arguing against your own imagination, not me.
Well at least you're actually doing something other than blaming white people for everything wrong in the world just because of the color of their skin, so kudos to you.
How does me being responsible for only myself lead to me screwing over other people in your imagination? I would be responsible for that and take full responsibility, since my actions are my responsibility and I have no other colored people to blame for my problems unlike you. You're the one who tries to shift responsibility from the person doing the action to other people, not me.
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Please don't whitewash your earlier statement. Being happy for 90% of a population not existing isn't enough for you I guess?
I'm blaming people like you who can't get it into your thick head that being part of the community you're in comes with inherent responsibilities, even living is a social contract, so no, no one person is just responsible for themselves (although you and the 1% would disagree).
If you're saying that there is no problem, then clearly you are either very ill-informed or want to maintain all your privileges, because colonization and the centralization of wealth and global trade in the west has affected everybody else negatively. If you can't even acknowledge that, then what the hell am I gonna call you other than a racist?
While you say you're calling out China, I doubt it's for altruistic reasons but rather to advance and promote your own politics and worldview
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I still haven't changed my statement one bit in any direction. I have been saying the exact same thing all along. It's you who is trying to wash it to look like something else based on your own hatred for the white man. Stop arguing with your own imagination already please, how many times do I have to ask this?
You're the one who claims nobody is responsible for their own actions, so they are free to shift the blame to others instead of doing something to fix the problem themselves.
Where did I say there is no problem exactly? Yet more stuff you keep making up instead of bothering to listen to what I say.
You're yet to provide me 1 country that Finland has colonized. Until you do, your words are empty and meaningless.
So you would call people with poor understanding of economics racists? Yet more things you keep making up in your witchhunt for the white man. The 1% getting richer has affected everyone else negatively, that we can agree on. But unlike you I blame only the 1% for their own actions, not everyone who happens to share a skin color with most of them.
Where on Earth did you get me advancing and promoting my own worldviews? Usually that's called a discussion where people who have different views share them with each other and then talk about them. Where did I even say I'm doing it for altruistic reasons? Stop making all this stuff up already.
You can do nothing but make up things that I have said or meant and argue against those, so until you finally start listening to what I'm actually saying, I will start treating you purely as the troll you are. Your choice, civilized adult discussion or keep on trolling, I can enjoy both.
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Who's the one making things up now? I in no way implied people are not responsible for their own actions. To what degree we have choices and opportunities are a different thing.All you are at this point is an incorrigible dimwitted racist, so I guess this where I get off
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That's still just you.
Boohoo white man is responsible for everything bad I have done, boohoo.
Boohoo, I keep making things up about someone and they started doing the same to me, boohoo.
Good riddance.
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Your arguments are interesting and it's hard to disagree with most of your points. Globalized markets are clearly here to stay, but this was already true before China's entrance, and it seems in retrospect that encouraging/allowing that entrance and the manner in which it was done may have been a huge mistake. I'm referring specifically to allowing them into the WTO and conferring completely unmerited Most Favored Nation trade status in the 90s, which pretty much opened the door to the massive economic growth we've seen since. Disconnecting MFN status from conditions tied to human rights coupled with pie-in-the-sky expectations that western business's infiltration of the Chinese economy would enable infiltration of western values as well and lead to a change of heart for hard line political leaders has gotten us where we are today - with a bad actor as the new heavy hitter in the global economy. No denying, this is the US' doing and it now seems like we're trying to fix it or at least dial it back a little by employing tariffs. Knowing next to nothing about economics, I have no idea if this can actually work, or at least help, though it does seems to have had an impact on China's economic growth.
My point being, while we can't return to pre-industrial, pre-global economy, it might be nice to return to a pre-China global economy.
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Ideally, totally. But at this point we're going further away from the original argument, which argued for a more isolationist trade policy, which can end in literal food storages for most of the smallest countries and wildly inflating prices and almost complete instability within around 10-20 years thanks to economy slowing down, the stock markets rapidly crashing and it would snowball into a total mess of a local economy.
China needs to get its shit sorted and their political system and social rights are in need of a near complete overhaul. But when talking about economics, especially something as wide as trade policies, resource management and general industry, we can't get stuck on other things as much.
Starlight has an idealized look of the world, which is totally cool, but money and raw materials don't bend to hopes and dreams.
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You still don't need to stop all global trade if you just stop trading only with countries that have no human rights. That will make the economy of those countries collapse like the Soviet Union did, not the rest of the world.
My ideology is that even while I personally too like cheap electronics, I can imagine living without those just fine because I have lived in a time where there were none of them. Just because 1% needs to produce more and more cheaper and cheaper crap that nobody actually needs before marketing brainwashs them, doesn't mean they are in any way needed by anyone else. This would solve all ecological problems as well.
So I don't bend to money, but I like using it because that's just how the world currently is and I have no power to change it. But if a change would happen, I'm not the one who would be crying that I can't afford to buy a new iPhone every month because the old one's color got boring. I would stop spending so much time on my PC and maybe go outside to do some real stuff.
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So I don't bend to money, but I like using it because that's just how the world currently is and I have no power to change it. But if a change would happen, I'm not the one who would be crying that I can't afford to buy a new iPhone every month because the old one's color got boring. I would stop spending so much time on my PC and maybe go outside to do some real stuff.
Well, you're not the only one on this planet. Some people actually have extremely dangerous and painful medical conditions so if you don't have it, then it's very easy for you to say that you don't care. Of course, it's fine that you don't want a phone, because you know it's not just iPhones. Same goes cars that aren't extremely basic.
Like, you say these things where you know that your logic has massive gaps in it, but you also ignore it. You mention the Soviet Union, yet also just forget that example when it comes to concluding your point.
You say you don't bend to money, yet here you are on your computer, writing your message. I wonder how anyone other than Russia or China is going to get the materials to create processors for new computers? I wonder how people are going to be self-sufficient with food when like a fourth of all food's basically unavailable due to ruined trade relations.
You're in Finland, correct? Like, you of all people should realize how much you depend on literally everyone else. How you're completely screwed if what you recommend goes through. You're the afterthought in world economics. No more imported food. No more consumer electronics. No more military equipment. No more medical equipment and medical supplies. The whole entire idea of antibiotics is gone btw.
Good for you for taking this stance. On basically destroying around 50% of the job market. On letting millions die. On increasing infant mortality. On increasing odds of a new world war.
But I guess nationalists can be proud that the new leather shoes were made by the local yokels and that Finland's best performing industries died so outdated jobs can come back and fill the gap by around 10% of the entire destroyed job market.
Life's not so black and white. It's not so simple. I'm sorry, but it's not. I don't actually think that's your goal. But the gain you receive from your plan exists, but in reality you're earning $10 while currently you'd earn $100.
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How are extremely painful medical conditions related to any of this? Is China the only source for some medication? Of course I want a phone, that's why I own one. I just used iPhone as the peak example of useless crap that people want but in no way actually need, nothing more.
My logic has no gaps in it, you're just assuming some altruistic feeling based mentality is driving them if I even mention of it being just logical to do things the better way. Once you skip this assumption it will start making much more sense. If anything I would see this as a 4X game and humanity would be losing the game horribly by being the worst species on this planet and doing its best to destroy both itself and other life.
I'm not using my computer because I somehow think money is my god, I like spending money just like anyone else. But I don't see any other inherit value for it than other people believing it's worth something. So to trade with those other people, I need to use it. The problem with food is still overpopulation. If 20 people who have food enough for 10 people are multiplying to be 100 people, that is not going to help them one bit nor is it the responsibility of others to feed those 90. Everyone should live according to what resources they have and first try to improve access to more before creating more need. Be it by trade with other civilized countries or own production.
Yes, I do. And nope, I wouldn't be screwed one bit if that happens. I'd just go farm a little piece of land and be happy with that instead of wasting all my time finding entertainment online. Sounds like a much healthier way of living to me. And we managed to have all of those things long before China was involved, we will just build our own factories and buy the raw resources with a higher price from some country that has human rights. You're the one who thinks humanity will be doomed if they lose their access to cheap crap, I think it would be healthy for both humanity and every other living being on Earth.
Globalization has destroyed 50% of all jobs, not localization, so you got it all reversed. Everyone had jobs when factories were here, now we have huge unemployment because they are in China. You seem to believe China is somehow the only source for anything in the world when it quite clearly isn't. Rare earth minerals are the only thing I can think of where they actually are holding a majority of them hostage in their soil. And I know well how those are needed for most electronics. But they can be found elsewhere too, like Finland has enough lithium to make electronic car batteries for whole of Europe if we just bothered mining it. Or enough thorium to power all of Europe if governments would invest more in a sensible way to produce electricity instead of all this green stuff now.
Infant mortality? Are you really saying that China for example has a lower rate than Finland? Since they have even better access to everything Chinese, that should be the case. But yet for some reason they are poisoning their babies with melamine while our rate is among the lowest in the world. So are you saying we would do even better if we just imported more poisonous baby formula from China?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2008_Chinese_milk_scandal
https://blogi.thl.fi/finlands-low-infant-mortality-has-multiple-contributing-factors/
I would have no problems buying German Lederschuhe, since I would know they are made in a civilized country by workers with human rights. I often do in fact choose the European version even if it costs twice as much, just because I know it will be made with far better quality control and proudness for the product. And shoes are often made in Thailand or Vietnam instead of China, which focuses more on electronics, even if that makes it only a little bit better.
The job market has already been destroyed, why can't you see this simple fact? Every time a new factory closes and moves to China there are thousands more unemployed and no new jobs for them. This is the reality I live in right at this moment, not personally, but it's all over news every day since it's a huge problem for keeping our nice Nordic idyll intact. We need more jobs to pay more taxes to have more schools, hospitals and libraries. In your scenario of full globalization we would lose all that and replace them with crappy electronics to distract ourselves from the problems.
It really is that simple if you want it to be. If you're a lawyer or a politician, then it's your job to use BS to make black appear white, but that doesn't mean it's like that in reality. If by some magical chance I would be in power to decide these things, I would fully accept the consequences but my opinion is that they would far less severe than yours. But even if I really can't change anything by myself, doesn't still mean that I have to accept the BS the 1% keeps making up to justify why they need to get richer by the expense of everyone else.
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China owning US debt is their leverage to keep the US from taking action against them. The moment they call it in, they lose that leverage.
The trillions pumped into China were by rich entrepreneurs looking to save money for their business, this is just the natural extension of capitalism. It was not in an intention to make China rich.
The global economy is simply not that black and white.
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Like Trump is taking actions now or did you mean a full land war against them? :)
The intentions are pure black (as opposed to red) so there isn't much space for gray or even white. Rich people get richer and poor people pay the price, what else is the intention of global economy ruled by those rich people?
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Neither. Trump's actions so far are meaningless and have hurt Americans more than the Chinese, the extra costs of tariffs are just passed on to the people. War against China would be monumentally stupid, and would cause the deaths of millions, they are a nuclear power too.
I meant a drop in investment in China, as Americans are the biggest investors in China.
Also the reason manufacturing in China is cheap is not purely due to labour costs, but also the effects of cheap materials and the economies of scale. There is no path back to where every nation manufactures its own goods. Even at the higher wages offered in America, the majority of people would not be able to afford the "expensive items their friends and relatives made in the next factory over". Finally, the American public have no intention of working in sweatshops to produce shirts and the like. Look up conditions in the Industrial Revolution, China (and other Asian countries) are merely experiencing a delayed version of that.
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They also don't have to waste any money on not destroying nature around them or safety of the workers, since there is a billion more worker ants to take their place. Stop needing a $1 shirt that breaks in a week, spend $100 on a shirt that lasts you decades instead and you can easily afford it. Stop having sweatshops at all and let everyone work in a safe and pleasant environment. People could afford all kinds of stuff back in the history when factories were here, with your logic Chinese people can't afford anything made in China either because that's where the factories are. But for some reason they can afford a lot of things.
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The Chinese middle class can't afford the same quality of goods we do. And don't fall for the delusion that chinese made goods are of poorer quality that what the US could make. And as of right now, the Chinese are taking greater efforts to mitigate and reduce their environmental impact than the US.
People certainly couldn't afford the stuff we have now if they were made in the US, and they couldn't back then, because the stuff we have now didn't exist then.
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It's no kind of delusion but a fact that the cheaper some product is, the poorer the quality is, in most cases. Just read about a Finnish company that tried to outsource to China, but because so many products they received were faulty they calculated that it's actually cheaper to produce them here. It's not really about who is doing the work, it's about the mentality and quality control. No idea about quality in USA, they sure are proud of it but I was of course talking mainly about actual European quality. We could even afford Nokia phones made in Finland back in the good old days. :)
People can afford cars made in USA, some even collect a lot of them. And cars here cost a magnitude more than any electronics. I just don't see why everyone is supposed to be able to afford everything they want. Of course I personally like cheap stuff too but I've had so many disappointments with stuff I ordered from China that now I prefer to get stuff made in China but imported here by a trusted brand with quality control for them.
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Quality control is set by the company designing and selling the goods. The manufacturer then needs to implement those standards. You can get both good and bad quality stuff wherever you want in the world, it all just has to do with acceptable margins. Those Nokia phones had parts made throughout the world. Where do you think they got the raw materials for those goods. Furthermore, back in those terrible old days, you could do shit all with a phone, it WAS a brick. And there wasn't as much existing manufacturing capacity in China, so the cost of developing that and training workers was not as profitable in the short term. American cars aren't exactly the pinnacle of quality, and European cars aren't the pinnacle of affordability. And both of them aren't particularly eco-friendly.
People can afford stuff now, they couldn't dream of affording a couple decades ago, you can't expect them to go back to that.
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And with good quality control, surprisingly the Chinese production isn't dirt cheap any more. The ultra cheap crap is total crap still.
Yeah personal greed is a great reason to ignore all problems. Who cares if my shirt has cotton picked by black slaves and made by 10yo girls in a sweatshop working 14h days for $1, the pricetag is just so low! That's the kind of logic people use to justify using slave labor in China as well, but they pretend it's somehow better because the problems are so far out of their sight.
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That's exactly my point. While as comments below point out, there are some alternatives but the majority of our consumer goods and even economies rely on China's manufacturing capacity. It is super easy to call out Blizzard for trying to protect their income, but we do the same when we buy Chinese goods.
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But but....I thought they were the good guys. Remember how pro-LGBT and progressive and everything Blizzard is? I thought they were the only corporation that doesn't care about the money. Remember their slogan how "Every Voice Matters"?
Corporations are not your friends. If tomorrow being gay happened to be against the law, I assure you 100% of these companies would flip the switch without hesitation. Remember that the next time your favorite brand changes their logo into something rainbowy once a year in a designated month. Money rules over everything in that world.
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There are no gay Blizzard characters in Russia or China.
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Just like they turned Haruka and Michiru into "cousins" in Polish version of Sailor Moon, as catholic country can't have kid's show with gay couple? ;D
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More like being gay publicly can get you killed or in a "correction" facility in those countries. At least the only drama I can remember happening here was first book of Dragon Ball manga getting a censored version because it's not OK to look under a young girls dress.
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Tracer being gay is the equivalent of wading in the kiddy pool with a whole ocean to swim in. At best, it's nice that she is, but it's hardly groundbreaking. :D
Agreeing mostly, but in your example, it would take a bit more subtlety than that flip of a switch.
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Eh, Infinity Wars is better than Hearthstone anyway. And Gwent. And Elder Scrolls Legends. And Yugioh. And... oh, no, wait, not better than Fable Fortunte, i guess. Sucks to hear, sad for the guy but he did ask for it, he has no idea what China is like and their girlfriend activision blizzard, well, now he does and i hope he goes to another card game.
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When will you realize that Blizzard is no longer an "American" company? It is an Chinese company now.
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Being partially owned by tencent doesn't make a company chinese since last I checked tencent has been in the bad books for china
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Yes it does, its enough to have them as partners as their using Tencent to get into the chinese market, its been said they cannot do it on their own, they need someone from the inside and that is Tencent.
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Tencent used to be the way to get into the chinese market, that is true. Here is the thing, Tencent is pretty much been in really bad graces with China in recent years so Tencent isn't your best way to get into the china market anymore
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But its the best way for them still, either best bet or the best way that they know of, i havent heard of any other way than trough them, this massive huge gaming conglomorate, no one else is that big, big to distribute, aproprerize and advertise.
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Seems like these guys from Blizzard need some tegridy.
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I stopped the "Everquestclone" world of warcraft when there was a one-year subscription with an extra, unique mount and they are not allowed me to pay for it as one of my "recruit a friend" not liked the game and refunded it. I was a hardcore collector (i even had collectible card mounts, my favorite was my spectral tiger and the magic rooster, which was an awesome chicken mount) and I was one of the players with the most achievement points on the server and global also. I never had a refund or any issues with my own payments. Then I decided I'll never support a company which punishes me for the actions of others, even if I would have refunded something they can't punish a customer for that. I believe that was after it became Activision-Blizzard so I also avoid Activision games, I don't even know what kind of games they have. Not sure how bad decision was this for Blizzard but nearly all of my guild and a few friends followed me to SWToR, then to Guild Wars 2, but around that time I got bored with MMOs.
A few years ago the son of my brother wanted diablo 3 from me for Christmas, I said he can't get any game from me which created by such a discriminative and anti-consumer company. He got Van helsing+Torchlight 2 instead.
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People seem to forget that Blizzard is part of Activision, you know, the company that's so greedy and amoral that makes EA look good by comparation. Don't you remember how eager Bungie was to scape?
Also, China is reaching ludicrous levels of dystopic dictatorship at this point, no wonder a revolution is starting to take shape.
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On the other hand Bungie did plan their micro's the way they wanted it since it was easier for them.
So I don't expect their non-Activision next game to be much better as somehow the entire gaming community does.
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I've never played any game by Bungie so I don't really know how good or bad they are when it comes to that stuff. I just remember how they were celebrating when they got out of Activision's publishing.
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