I have an idea for changing the CV valuation / devaluation system. This idea is too raw to be a real suggestion to the mods at this point, so I'm posting for the community to respond.

The site knows our Wishlists -- that data is available. My suggestion is that the CV valuation is full for any game that appears in more than 10% of users' wishlists. Under 10% dials the value down one step, and under 1% the title's value goes to zero.

I'm using 10% and 1% as starting points for discussion. Perhaps other numbers would be better.

Cons:

TONS of work: Making the change would be a lot of work. This point can't be stressed enough.

Bots flagging everything: Bot Steam accounts can flag every game for their wishlists [ solution: ignore any wishlist with more than 1000 entries ] (if a real user genuinely has over 1000 games on their wishlist, then that user's interest in games is too watery / too easily piqued to be worthy of influencing the system.)

Unknowns remain unknown: 'Hidden gem'/underappreciated games are more likely to remain obscure. [ possible solution: use our Wishlist and Steam's Recommended lists ]

other cons that this discussion yields

Pros:

Less Mod work: No on-going work for the mods to set CV devaluations; games drop off of wishlists once the users have them in their library. If the community's want of a game is fully saturated, it will less often / no longer appear on wishlists automatically and the saturated game will drop in value automatically, and fewer users will choose to make GAs for them.

Less Arguing: The question 'why was this game devalued?' would have a clear unassailable answer: either almost everyone already has it, or almost no one wants it

Less Shovel-ware: It will be automatically devalued for lack of being on anyone's wishlist. When shovel-ware is devalued, it will appear less often in GAs.

Better User Experience: Users will have a better SG experience when the GAs better reflect the tastes of the community, and when games they want are given away more often.

No Bargain Hunting for Mods: There would be no need to search out +95% discounts from multiple online shops. Users 'exploiting' good deals to raise their Contributor Level is a non-issue when the offered games meet the want of the community. If the games are wanted by the community, then by all means let users raise their contributor level by offering them, regardless of what they paid. [The current system lets users inflate their CL with totally-unknown games that get full value from being unknown.]

Re-valuing: By basing the CV on the ever-changing current wishlists of the community, games can devalue and later revalue if their popularity rises again. Consider the Batman Arkham games. In our current CV devaluation system, only Knight gets full CV value. If a teen is only now allowed by their parents to play more aggressive games, the teen might prefer to start that series at the beginning. We might have 100 users with Arkham Asylum and / or Arkham City on their wishlists, but currently the SG community has a disincentive to make GAs for those titles.

Tweaks on the basic idea:

ignore any wishlist with more than 1000 entries
use our Wishlists AND Steam's Recommended lists for a broader base
only use the wishlists/recommended of Level 1+ members
add a view of most-wished-for titles
use regional percentages ( to support language preferences )

Your thoughts? Your Cons? Your potential exploits?

3 months ago

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Would this be better?

View Results
Yes, definitely
Yes, but not enough to be worth the effort of making the changes
Maybe
No

Don't think it would work, at page 800 I gave up. Not sure if that mess is made by people using script to add to wishlist every single game. Capping list on 1000 wishlisted games to prevent bots... I hardly believe on steamgifts are some real users tbh. Also if some game will be given free with limited keys, people will put it on wishlist to filter iteasily if they come to site when it is out of stock. Then comes people (can't call out concrete users), which proudly aclaim having 100+ email adresses just to abuse such giveaways. Now, would your system prevent exploit?
https://www.steamgifts.com/giveaways/wishlist/search?page=800

Better User Experience: Users will have a better SG experience when the GAs better reflect the tastes of the community, and when games they want are given away more often
That part make almost no sense for me, people usually gift bundle rests, other spare keys or trash from russia sites that is made only to exploit cv system. Considering most users are level 0, I doubt people use it as list of giveaway plan to do except some events. How exactly you mean games will be giveawayed more often?

3 months ago
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Also if some game will be given free with limited keys, people will put it on wishlist to filter iteasily if they come to site when it is out of stock.

Why would somebody do it if game is outright bad?

How exactly you mean games will be giveawayed more often?

Exactly because of exploitation. Look, people who want a lot of CV for less money will always try to minimize price and to maximize CV.
Maximize CV now is "find a game with maximal full price". Maximize CV with suggested system will mean "find a game majority of people want to have. I've seen cases before when trash games were set to ridiculously high price in steam to exploit CV on SG. With new system it won't work (or at least will work much worse), since majority won't have trash games in wishlist.

3 months ago
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Not only bad games were for free, but only in limited amount.

That sounds to me like system would discourage people from doing givaways, if easily obtained games go to 0 cv. I don't really care I already have on main page 5 games to enter. If these games trash used as feed for leechers points disappear they won't get replaced by top AAAs games.

3 months ago
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trust me i started a few days ago doing a few giveaways on Indiegala and most of what is on offer from other users is that tank dlc from amour warfare because i think it was £20 to buy and you could (and maybe still can) get it easily for free (i don't know all the rules on there , if like here you need to activate it on your account because i entered for games i owned to use up my points and it didn't stop me)

3 months ago
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I was told indiegala has no rules and many of games gifted on indiegala ends on steamgifts anyway. I look on site and haven't liked it, their bundles were just neverending lists of hentais, so I would rather forget site exists, for me it doesn't even worth checking for sales.

3 months ago
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same i can appreciate a good game including SX or pon but these lower end puzzle games with a lewd flavour seem to sell well for some reason

3 months ago
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Why do you expect those games to disappear? Is nobody want those games?

3 months ago
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"How exactly you mean games will be given away more often?" Good games. Wanted games. Wished-for games. I mean that the current system rewards unknown games too heavily, and if unknown games were not rewarded or only minimally rewarded, we'd see more wished-for games in GAs. Most likely less GAs, but a shorter list with better quality.

I don't see the downside of your example of 'some game given free with limited keys' -- why not let people who want it, and who missed the limited give-away, chase the keys here? If they want it enough to add it to their wishlist, that's good enough.

"Then comes people (can't call out concrete users), who proudly proclaim having 100+ email addresses just to abuse such giveaways. Now, would your system prevent exploit?" That sounds like something the current system doesn't prevent. How is that a criticism of the new idea?

Thanks for the Wishlist page. I wasn't aware we could see that. Unfortunately, seeing that busts my idea that the early Batman Arkham games are sought after!

3 months ago
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Doubt that, amount of these top wanted games will be still same to see or will be in exclusive groups as it is now. Exploiters won't buy you AAA game instead 20 copies of 15€ game you never heard about, which they bought for 1€. Some people see that site as trading, but for CV to increase your level, so if they get nothing for rest of cheap Fanatical bundle, they would rather sell keys for profit. Wouldn't make it people to leave if they would get "awarded" just for giving away expensive games? Seeing my own wishlist, if that would be used as show of inspiration of what to giveaway, bruh.. about 1/3 of it isn't even released and I just keep the track to buy it on release. Meanwhile some titles on top spots of community wishlist are just overated trash which is just advertised everywhere and people drop it on wishlist just, cause it is expensive.

Current system set game 0 CV applied since date of game was free/ information leaked. It can remove CV and levels even backward. Example - year ago was given away 7000 keys for a Hitman game, basicly your system would benefit them still points on regift if it is placed on wishlist.

3 months ago
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"Example - year ago was given away 7000 keys for a Hitman game, basicly your system would benefit them still points on regift if it is placed on wishlist."
Yeah... and people who wished for it might see a GA for it.

For me, I use the wishlist to be made aware of when a game that caught my eye is at a discount. Am I atypical in that?

3 months ago
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Yes, I do same, cause I don't see reason add on wishlist every game I see in store. But it says nothing about preferences, games I wanted I bought, haven't let them on wishlist. Most often I sneak on sg for games I never heard of, but looks nice to me. I believe real players are same on that, if they want play game, they buy it. I even buy small games when I see giveaway for.

3 months ago
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maybe sometimes this is the only way some games make any money being in a $1 just so people buy it to get CV on here

3 months ago
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Yeah, some indie games are already released with 50% sale which seems to me like they completely gave up. I think last time I bought on such release sale Wilmas dreams or Aquarium designer (which wasn't the smartest move tbh, it was more like early access or demo, so I gave to game negative review and now I had to block developer as she spammed me about, I had friend request like twice per week).
Selling games seems actually difficult.

3 months ago
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people can't have them on their wish list if they don't know about them and people also don't always just go straight for the wish list section for giveaways

3 months ago
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I wonder where you got this idea. I suggested it multiple times before.

3 months ago
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Have you thought about the fact that ideas aren’t exclusive to one person?

3 months ago
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I was just joking mostly. I find it funny that somebody else suggested something I think of and wrote of many times, with many details I also thought of too.

3 months ago
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Hah -- sorry, Ryzhehvost, I guess I should have done more research first.

3 months ago
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you said less mod work - wouldn't it be much much more mod work checking almost on a weekly if not daily bases how many users have what game in there wishlist unless it's automatically done

3 months ago
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... yeah, automated... you know, with computers...

3 months ago
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oh fair enough then that part would work at least

3 months ago
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No need to be sorry, I'm have to see someone who thinks a lot like me)

3 months ago
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This will require a lot of thought and logic to finalize but this is 100% a way forward. Giving people games they want = more happiness overall = more real people on the site.

3 months ago
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but and correct me if i am wrong isn't a large part of the giveaways on here either because it came in like a $1 or something from a bundle like choices which that person either already has or doesn't want - it rarely has anything to do with the amount of times it's on peoples whish list - in fact the reason it might be on so many whish lists is because it's either just come out (2 - 3 months or so), very expensive (like monster hunter is $40+) or not been in a bundle - which in these cases it would be hard for people to buy them , just for giveaways

3 months ago
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You are just assuming that people want great games you also want.
There are many ways this could go bad really fast. Bots and multiple accounts and fake wishlists to put crap cheap Russian trashware on the top of the wishlist to get to level 10 in 2 days. Might as well rename SG HentaiSG lol

3 months ago
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my son has about 20k games in his wish list and never adds dlc - mostly because he trades though barter and doesn't want to be offered dlc for games he does not have - so if more are like him dlc will be very low on Wishlist's

no i don't like this idea at all and really hate the part that said 1% or under goes 0 CV - so a game which isn't well known because they haven't either a big studio behind them or gone the freebee or many times bundled route - would get punished by having even less chance of being in a giveaway - just because it's unknown - in your idea would it not be better to do what the people behind Mirror 2 did but instead of an amount of game play time its adding certain things to your whish list to get a free key - for example add Mirror 2 to whish list to get a free copy of Mirror 1 (which almost all would do as the wish list really means nothing as it's not a guarantee you must buy what's on it ever)

3 months ago*
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I wouldn't include any wishlist that long, because it isn't a reflection of any person's preferences.

3 months ago
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so what would the cut off point be - people always add things to their wish list but unless they own them i doubt many remove things (maybe they get removed from the store or go free to play) - so to include new games to the higher % or to not be considered free or no CV they would need to remove other games or dlc from their Wishlist - i for one already know (i am one myself) who hates having to remove people from their friends list to add others for trades or to contact them about a giveaway - i don't think people people would be too happy to delete items from their wish list just so newer ones counted

edit: after thinking about this it might even prevent people from putting new items on their wishlist if they know it will either not count or stop the rest counting

3 months ago*
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Yeah, sure. So if a person has a niche taste (like I do, for instance) and, say, wants to give away a new adventure game they've enjoyed immensely and to share and attract attention to it (or, for example, give away their Kickstarter key), they won't get CV for it. On the other hand, a popular game that's included in a Humble Monthly gets a full CV value. So fair.

3 months ago
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You wouldn't be prevented from sharing a game you're passionate about. You can... for little/no CV.

Getting 'a popular game' makes people happy. That's a goal to incentivize, isn't it?

3 months ago
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That would be bad.

Let say there is a great game coming many people don't know about so no one have it on their WL and he gives a key for let say that great RPG game that costs 50$ and he will get 0 CV while the winner will still get 50 RV.

Yeah the act of giving is great and nice but it would just be strange if the system would tell him that this super new game is like... worthless???

3 months ago*
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the winner get's 50 CV why would the winner get CV?

3 months ago
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Sorry I meant RV.

3 months ago
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RV? you mean retail value (got it thanks)

3 months ago
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RV as Received Value.

3 months ago
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thanks

3 months ago
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In that case, I recommend that person wait a bit.

Wait for the company to promote the game. That should put it on people's radar... and maybe their wishlists.

Check the wishlist view to see if it has reached full value, and once it does, make a GA.

3 months ago
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No. Just no. Most of my favourite games have never been in those 10%, and that's fine. Not every game is addressed to a wide audience, and many of really awesome ones will remain known to a tiny circle of people. Here's a small analogy: on one hand, we have Marvel movies. They are loved by many, but they have nothing to do with art and will likely be forgotten pretty soon. On the other, there's stuff like von Trier, Jarmusch or Lynch. If we applied your approach to movies, we'd determine that the second category is basically worthless because it's not in the center of attention of millions of teenagers.

3 months ago
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same with anything isn't i mean how many people would like a band as much or more than say take that or U2 if the radio played them enough for people to get to hear them or if a TV show was promoted more would people know more about it and give it a try?

as i say you might have made the best meal ever but what's the point if no one knows it's there to be eaten - not every company has big budgets to advertise in magazine or on TV or Youtbe ETC..

3 months ago
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be better to stock up on those lewd puzzle game fodder instead i guess

3 months ago
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Nope, getting a good game makes people happy. Or maybe I'm overly naive and think to highly of people; in that case you are right.

3 months ago
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I do not consider it a good idea to bias CV towards favoring games that overlap a lot of wishlists, that's essentially favoring well-known/well-advertised big-publisher "common denominator" games, as opposed to the rest of the variety of gaming. Gamers have a long tail of interests, and there are entire genres which have small but devoted audiences.

Happiness and popularity of the game are separate things. A giveaway does not have to make the entire Steamgifts userbase happy, only those users who enter it, and ultimately the winner. How happy the winner is depends only on the value of the game to that person. As long as each giveaway is interesting to part of the Steamgifts audience, there will be people who want to enter to win it.

3 months ago
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could not agree more

3 months ago
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STOP having unique niche possible taste in games you you you psycho! <see what I did there :D>

3 months ago
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Hehe :)

3 months ago
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Totally agree. This kind of change would probably lessen the number of giveaways for niche games quite a bit in favor of games that don't particularly need more exposure, and giveaways for niche games are already pretty rare.

3 months ago
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Regarding hidden gems -- unknown, underappreciated games...

Currently, those games get lost in the shovel-ware, the bundle-dreck. They look the same as any other less-than-ten-bucks game in a long, long list of GAs.

If the shovel-ware were dis-incentivized, the hidden gem games would stand out. The people who are passionate about them would still put them up for GAs, for the passion instead of for the CV.

3 months ago
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what about games which were never free just bundled in let's say a humble choices so people who buy it activate it which could take it down past the 10% mark - even though you had to pay money for it

3 months ago
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You can give it away still... for less CV.

Why give full CV after the community is saturated with the game?

The main point is that the community being saturated is a better turning point than a one-time sale.

3 months ago
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yes but my point is why would people (like myself sometimes) keep buying bundles if for example Fifa 22 was in the next Humble Bundle and enough people who had it on their wishlist activated it a never free game costing (i don't know price) £30 would now be worth O CV and what about the people who win the game or dlc -after time it could go less than 1% and be again worth 0CV and not been free

3 months ago
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I don't get why you expect a game no one has on their wishlist should get full value.

We seem to have very different perspectives.

3 months ago
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because if it's never been free or bundled it does - and will still to do so - i don't understand why you want this hit and miss system implemented - i sure won't use if it is i'd rather my spare games just sit there than whatever this is meant to be

3 months ago
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That last paragraph "if" is a dream..

3 months ago
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Fixed it: "Unknowns remain unknown: 'Hidden gem'/underappreciated games are virtually certain to become even more obscure than in the current system."

In my opinion this is bad enough that it completely overshadows any possible benefit. If you want to incentivize giving popular games, why not add a bonus (say +10% CV) for highly-wishlisted games instead of penalizing indie studios without massive marketing departments?

3 months ago*
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+1 sometimes the only way to get noticed is to be bundled then of course if this system is to be in place it might go or stay lower than 1% wish listed and might harm the bundle if for example you want a bundle costing $5 but only want 3 of the 6 games if the other 3 are not well known making giveaways would be worthless and you would have to either keep them yourself or give them away (further reducing the chance of it being worth something in the future) - if they are well known they might have been in people's libraries already or though said bundle again making them potentially worthless

3 months ago
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I agree, it should incentivise giving away wanted games, instead of punishing. Or even get a CV boost if the game is above a review threshold. But at the end of the day it feels a moot point, vast majority of the giveaways is for games from bundles. IMO unwanted games from bundles is a way, stronger pushing power behind the giveaways, than getting CV is.

Though I don't know how many people buy bundles solely for giveaways - they would be the people who maybe would be more interested in such a multiplier.

3 months ago
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i do sometimes buy bundles just to giveaway but mostly i sadly buy Steamground 100 keys for $10 or something so i have plenty of stock for giveaways as sad it may be i would rather do many giveaways than 1 big one normally - i'd go for 50 x 1p game than 1 x 50p game

when my son was on here before me he joined mostly as a way to get rid of unwanted or doubled up games and i'm sure others did the same

3 months ago
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Good games become popular without much marketing. And if somebody want to popularize the game - they can first make a topic in discussions section first, see if wishlist go up and then decide if it's worth to make a giveaway.

3 months ago
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A small fraction of good games become popular without much marketing. And they never stand up to the AAAs, which may or may not be "good" but will always get tons of wishlists/sales regardless. If marketing didn't matter, big game companies wouldn't do it.

3 months ago
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A small fraction

The rest is just not good enough. ¯_(ツ)_/¯

3 months ago
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I do not agree. I doubt either of us could convince the other, so I'm just going to leave it at that.

3 months ago
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so basically companies like EA or Sega don't need to spend millions on marketing - just make a thread for free on SG would get similar results ?

3 months ago
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That's false logic. Nobody is talking about total number of sold copies. We are talking about advertising among SG users, cause that's the only thing that will affect system suggested by OP. And yes, to advertise among SG users - a thread on SG would be enough. If every user in the world visited SG daily - then yes, just making a thread would have been enough, and spending millions would not be needed.

3 months ago
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Wishlisted games change over time, though. Examples: The original Fallout and System Shock games will always be pretty good, but I can't imagine they are on many wishlists, though I wouldn't call them hidden or obscure.

3 months ago
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While you (or me) come to this site wanting to win some nice games to play, willing to give away some nice games we don't need...
That's not true for all people here.
Some people want to win as much games, without giving away anything.
Some people want to farm as much cards as possible.
Some people want to collect as many different games as possible.
Some people want to collect as many hentai games as possible.
etc.
etc.

So it would be difficult (i.e. impossible) for you to find enough people on SG to support your idea.
I can suggest instead - you can simply join a group of like-minded people.
Which will allow you giveaway/win some nice games, and not the usual "stuff" found in SG giveaways.
One such group is the one I've created (for this exact reason):
https://steamcommunity.com/groups/QGG-Group/discussions/0/2576571096282489476/

3 months ago
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You're writing CV and CL acronyms but not their meaning. Please write it first !
Then you may see why I'm telling you're discussing about a 100% different concept, which may be named a WV for Wished Value (Not to be confused with a VW, which is a car maker :P), and which may lead to a different leveling system on SteamGifts...
Maybe it's time to dual-class our accounts here, and start dual-leveling, maybe it's not, I don't know !
But every dual-classed character does retain its original levels in his original class when the 2nd is added, every RPG player should know that !
So please, don't overhaul the CV/CL system that way ! Maybe add yours next to it instead ???

3 months ago
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I think it`s overly too broad to accurately portray a value of a game.

And besides some highly generous people here, we have to look at the sad truth - most people post giveaways from bundle leftovers (or simply bundles).... and that is myself included. Meaning it has nothing to do with wishlist, but simply what we have on offer at said time.

I can pretty much guarantee I wont be buying wishlisted games for giving them away just because they will offer higher CV as I dont even buy games outside bundles for myself as I dont earn that much. Over the years Ive bought maybe 4 or 5 games for myself outside bundles and those have been on high discounts under 10 EUR. And Im pretty sure quite the high number of people are in even worse financial situation then I am.

And I give away bundle leftovers because they give me some CV because frankly the levels are a neat bonus but you have to take into consideration that even levels hardly help you in winning more games.. This has been discussed many times how most of the wins people have are 2-3 level GAs. So whether more CV for wishlisted games would increase quality of giveaways - I hardly doubt it. I would vote for the opposite - many users would probably stop giving away the bundle leftovers they are giving away now.

I took a look at community wishlist first page - I own none of the games as I wouldnt pay (as I said) more than 10EUR for myself.... Even less of a chance to justify spending such money for giving it away. While Im happy to give away copies of games I wouldnt play from bundles the full value is much higher for Humble Choice for example ... its 10 EUR.. I get several games I like, several I would like to try and several to give away (And I`m totally content with the fact these games have little CV or no CV at times)

3 months ago*
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How about a hybrid system, one which keeps the existing solution but adds up to 10 points calculated based on game rank in users wishlist?

So game value would be on a 0-60 point scale, first 50 from the current system, and the remaining 10 points given based on how popular the game is on wishlists. So it creates additional incentive to giveaway popular games.


Other idea to alleviate the work required by mods, implement a voting system by users, to harness the power of the crowds.

So for games currently full-value, users can vote/flag it as either reduced-value or zero-value if they found it bundled somewhere or given away. The voting doesn't have to automatically change a game value, the idea is for mods to simply use it as indicator by looking at the highly voted games, and of course manually verify them as they normally do. This should get rid of the majority of tickets created for this purpose.

And to prevent abuse, a user can only cast a limited number of votes per day or week, which maybe increases based on how many previous votes led to valid action by mods (kinda like number of GA slots).

3 months ago*
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Same problems just different cv output

3 months ago
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Not that they haven't been already mentioned but there are maaany reasons that this is a bad idea.

Without analyzing much and at the top of my head:

1) The majority has either crappy overcrowded wishlists that need clean up (including myself - keep track of releases, ga tasks, trading, "check later", and so on)

2) Tiny wishlists. Either too niche or simply.. the person doesn't use the feature much

3) Unknown / New games nobody knows (yet)

4) Wishlist DOESN'T equal want/like

5) Asking people to fix the way they use their wishlists isn't a viable option for waaay too many reasons

6) Punishing unique and asking for the people to change is a dream..


One thing I always loved here was finding out mini games or new games that I had no idea that they existed..

3 months ago
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Thanks, all, for the spirited discussion. I can see from the survey results that the idea is wildly unpopular.

I appreciate that the discussion was civil the whole time. That's a sign of a great community.

What started me on this train of thought is that I hate seeing things done manually when there could be a system to make it self-governing. The other thread about overzealous devaluation set me wondering if that process could be more organic. I see now that my way of using the Steam wishlist and this site itself are not the norm.

I guess another big point that I missed is that bundle leftovers are the bedrock of this site, and that's just not meant to be changed.

3 months ago
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