Do you care if someone you trade with resells your games for profit?
On the one hand, you can only ever trust one person which is yourself, on the other hand, the most amazing things happen out of the comfort zone.. Not really related to this topic though.
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Oh, definitely! Well, some at least. But that doesn't mean you should still truth them though.
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But if I take your advice and don't trust anyone, doesn't that mean I'm trusting you for your advice. (O_O)
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Is it really illegal to sell bundle keys? I tried to sell on G2A my bundle left overs before finding here. :(
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Just taking Humble Bundle as an example:
Selling keys is strictly prohibited.
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Oh good thing i wasn't successful then and I really hated their selling system.
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You understand that trading is also selling, so by trading your Humble keys to this trader, you're as guilty as he is.
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I am not trading for profit, I swap a game I don't want or already have with someone that has the same problem. What are you supposed to do with games from bundles that you already have in your opinion (possible from the same exact bundle company)?
IndieGala and Groupees even have their own trading sections but they don't allow you to resell keys either.
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I completely understand that, but bartering for another game is no different from selling for money. You can't disregard a rule when it suits you, then use the same rule to beat someone round the head when they do something you find abhorrent......
Also, if you check the IG and Groupees rules, you'll probably find that trading games outside their native trading system is against their terms of service. This is a common term imposed by developers to stop copies of games getting into the hands of grey market resellers whether directly or indirectly as you found out.... The bottom line is, if you would never of traded that key, it would never of been sold on G2A.
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It doesn't matter if you do it for profit or not. Trading is trading (trading is a form of selling), no matter if you make profit or not. If you already have games, you are supposed to either not activate it, or give it to someone else (gifting is allowed I believe).
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then why do bundle sites like indie gala and hrk have trading posts as a part of the website if its illegal? what country is it illegal to trade something you own?
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It happend to me once, but on steamcompanion.
I reported him for trading his winning (MKX) for TF2 keys and he was perma banned.
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Isn't that different because he traded a game he won-- that is, he didn't activate it? He'd get banned on SG too (though not permabanned unless he made a habit of it).
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That is indeed not how 'illegal' works. It's perfectly 'legal'.
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It's absolutely not illegal. It maybe against TOS but even the validity of that's sketchy depending on where you live/where the key is bought.
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Yeah i understand that just wanted to learn if it's allowed or not.
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If I trade my games to someone it's because I know I won't use them anyway and I just want to get something interesting in exhange for it. If I manage to find something it's profit for me, and I don't care what is happening later with key I gave. If someone can make even more profit for himself it's his business. I don't even ask what they are going to do with it but I'm aware some people sell keys, gifts.
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That's the same opinion I shared for a long time but it's not right, it's simply not ethical..
Especially if they lie at you and insult you, just because they are afraid someone is finding out the truth..
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Can't say anything about liars as I just don't ask additional questions so there is no place for conversation about future of my key but if someone insults me I just don't trade with them.
And why do you think reselling is not ethical ?
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I usually don't ask further questions but if you are asked specifically for gift links instead of keys and you don't have a gift link, you are going to ask why a key is not enough (especially if you have a decent amount of positive rep).
Well, it's kinda difficult with said person. He didn't insult me with bad words, he just did it in a very personal and hurtful way, trying to question yourself and trying to manipulate so far that you think YOU are wrong about something. Making you feel like shit and being sorry for not trusting them. Saying you are a very sick person. So all of that happened over a long time, very slowly. It was not a rude troll that would result you from the beginning because of "lowballing" - I ignore / block those people straight away.
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Usually when you see a game that has been bundled on a pack before. Those greymarkets will always have people sell those keys for less than 5 dollars.
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I used to trade a lot and that it's quite common.
Also
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It is illegal to resell bundle keys.
Well, it depends, it is against the law to state rules like that in some countries, that means bundle sites break law themselves.
I don't see anything wrong about reselling bundle keys myself and no, I don't do that myself. Don't even have paypal account for that and I would love to get the cheapest keys from Humble Jumbo Bundle 6 (1$ deal).
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Reselling an extra key you got in a bundle? No big deal.
Reselling a key you won from someone who was giving it away? Not cool.
Still, unless someone is abusing the steamgifts website for profit, I don't see why anyone should care. Once you've bought a key, it's really your business what you do with it. Even if you win it, it's kinda yours at that point, but I'd definitely think less of someone who came here, won the game (out of everyone else who might have actually wanted to play it), then sold it or traded it to get something they actually wanted.
It's just insulting to the person gifting the game.
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Reselling / not activating a key you win on Steamgifts is not only "not cool" but also against the rules and will result in a temporary ban and will exclude you from private giveaways that go through sgtools to check your account status.
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I'm aware of that, I'm just saying it's no longer your concern. Blacklist them, report them, move on.
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It's not "illegal" as "said by judges". But just like it's not illegal, I'm guessing it will be not illegal for Humble to deactivate keys they'll find as resold.
Similar how it's not illegal for you to sell anything you win on SG, but it's also not illegal for SG to ban you for that.
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Exactly. Just because a site has rules, doesn't mean it's illegal. You can do it without any penalties from the law (except if the laws states specifically it's illegal), but the site can ban you and prevent you from buying there again.
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It's not that similar actually. You don't pay for games here on steamgifts, they are gifted to you and there are certain rules to be obligable to get gifts and stay on this site, as you mentioned you will be banned if you don't follow those rules which is totally legal, while bundle keys sites sell keys to you for money and their rules have to be set up to countries they sell their keys to, otherwise customers can sue them and they will most probably win it, but that takes time and money, which means not many people will go to court for that.
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where do you think most of the keys given away on steamgifts come from?
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Yeah, I really care about that. It's a no-go for me. I always check if the person have the game beforehand, and I ask 'But you already have the game?', and they react like 'Oh.. I just wanted to buy it for a friend'. His friend can contact me then lol.
I always check, with the trades I made, if they go directly into their library while trading or not. It's just a must for me that they do. I don't want them to get profit from me being extra kind and giving them a nice price or whatever.
Though I did have this one dude where he had lots of +rep and nearly no games on his account. Made me suspicious. He said "Oki, all activated", and I checked his library, and said: "Well, I guess you activated that on your main account then since you don't have the games on this account", he said: ";) not bad detective! Cya!"
Another time a person bought my Killing Floor bundle steam gift for his girlfriend (this time I allowed it since I traded with him several times before), and apparently they ended up breaking up some days after.. So he put it up in his trades and later told me he managed to get The Witcher 3 for it... >.> made me feel quite sad.
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He never intended to deceive you, though. Just ended up with an opportunity to get a good game out of it. Might have been nice of him to ask you if it was alright, first, but please don't take offense when I say it's no longer your business. You made the trade.
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Yeah, that's true. I had no say in what he was going to do with it due to that circumstance. But it still stings.
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I traded for games that were for a friend. He doesn't speak English and have nothing to trade.
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Well sure, but then I would like to know beforehand. Like "Hey, my friend doesn't speak good English and I'll like to get this game for him". Then I wouldn't turn it down, but I would like to be able to verify he redeemed the key. Especially since I like to have order in my keys. What is not and what is used. :)
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You're right that they should be honest. But I did mentioned that it's for a friend just because I can't confirmed the key works right away. Never even crossed my mind that somebody would care about the key/gift he already traded away. Why should I?
And those "profit traders" lie exactly because of people who care about it (to get the trade done. And it's not an excuse and they are still f*** liars, of course).
And I keep an eye over my keys, I know which is used and which is not. I'll never give the same key again and I don't like traders that are like "Try this one. Nope? What about this key? Works?" - but I had a few.
Edit: And please excuse my English. It's sometimes difficult to convey some complicated ideas with my English level :-(
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But, once you've traded a key away, don't you mark it as used/gone?
I don't understand this thread. Are we made because others are making better profit than us? That they know a market for something we think is worthless?
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+1, you make me believe in humanity again, all hope and faith is not gone entirely :)
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I wouldn't personally sell my games on G2A, although I don't think any laws specifically state you can't legally do that.. It may violate the TOS of the particular bundle site to resell the games, but certainly enforcement would be almost impossible to prove, outside of buying the sold key and seeing where it came from.
not really sure I'd say selling keys on a site like G2A is the same as trading though..
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I might have been not clear enough, I'm sorry.
With it's illegal I really meant not accepted or allowed by bundle sites. I have no idea about the laws, especially not from every country. But it is against the rules of the shop you purchased them from.
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I'm not sure if the supreme court in America has ruled on the issue of digital goods in terms of first-sale doctrine, I know they have in used second hand video game physical copies.
Although things like game codes would probably be in the gray area. I'd suspect before the law becomes clear it would have to be tested by someone at the supreme court level. Considering most bundle sites and steam themselves aren't really enforcing or revoking keys because they have been resold I suspect it never will.
Also a TOS agreement is only valid as it meshes with the local laws. I'm pretty sure in places like the EU, you're legally allowed to sell your keys and if a bundle site decided to revoke those keys I suspect you'd have grounds for a lawsuit.
Although as I said, I'm pretty sure unless you blatantly put it in the bundle sites face, and provided them with proof and evidence of your actions they won't do anything about. I suppose the developer probably could if they wanted too...
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Actually, Geo may have a point.
If you didn't purchase the keys directly, but acquired them from someone else and THEN resold them, that basically means you're functioning as an overstock distributor, no?
If a lawyer could argue a point of that nature, there may actually be a case. :P
Otherwise, no, what you're saying ought still be valid-
though as draconian and corporate-friendly as the laws are moving toward being, with digital goods moving more and more toward being weakly protected services rather than products, that may not be the case for too much longer. :X
As far as ToS goes, pretty sure some bundle sites disapprove of trading, as well, so it's rather a faint distinction between first-hand sale and trading.
(Moreover, ToS usually doesn't extend to second-hand parties.)
The real issue is when a company violates ToS by purchasing keys for resale, as that falls under corporate law, and they'd be obtaining the keys in violation of contract, then.
As far as consumers, pretty sure we still have fairly open rights with our products, at least for the time being.
More notably, as you say, EU is far more consumer-friendly and protective than the corporate-loving/corporate-run United States: It seems highly unlikely they'd limit such things.
Either way, mechanically speaking, I don't see a difference between trading for games and trading for currency. We all do either pretty freely, and if someone wants to take the time to game the system, well that's their thing.
If they're not actively screwing anyone in their direct trades, it shouldn't really be anything that bothers the people they're trading with.
Whether they play the game you gave them, let it sit idle in library, gave it to a friend, or sold/traded it off, the nuances of it no longer affect you personally in any way.
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any TOS isn't legally binding if it violates the local laws. A company can put anything they want in the TOS and if you live in a Country which doesn't allow those rights to be taken away, such as the EU in many situations... you can file a lawsuit.
In the US consumer rights aren't nearly as good as the EU, it's unfortunate but I think as time goes on and the younger generation grows older and gets into politics we could see a shift in consumer rights. I just think it would take someone challenging the established rules which are in place. I'd suspect someone with a large library of digital games may want to pass that library on to their child or have that library sold or liquidated to leave their family money.
I do think in America consumers need to be more diligent about ensuring the huge corporations aren't allowed to continually take advantage of us.
Also while bundle sites may frown on trading of keys, I don't think they will take any action to stop it, doing so may very well open up Pandora's box.
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any TOS isn't legally binding if it violates the local laws. A company can put anything they want in the TOS and if you live in a Country which doesn't allow those rights to be taken away, such as the EU in many situations... you can file a lawsuit.
Iiiiiii'm not sure I get your point. What you're saying is blatantly obvious for consumer law, but as far as corporate law, you're not allowed to purchase for commercial resale if the ToS states you're not allowed to do such. At least, that's how it is in the states.
It's not a matter of ToS overwriting law, but of utilizing what laws are available and confirming they ARE in fact using those laws in that instance.
Consumer rights for digital goods in the US has been deteriorating over the past 20 years, it's kinda a mess now. But for the most part we're still pulling positive.
Keep in mind America is rife with corruption, and corporations exerting influence is a major factor in that.
At this point, we're already at the 'it's either going to start improving, or it's going to start getting a lot worse' stage :X
And I wasn't saying bundle sites would do anything about trading; I was saying that geo's point about bundle sites frowning on resale was moot, since her initial act of trading is often viewed just as negatively by bundle sites.[Notable exception: Groupees doesn't give a crap what you do with your keys, and even outright encourages trading.]
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I'm saying if you buy keys from a bundle site, and then trade or sell those keys you are legally allowed to do that, the bundle site can't go revoke those keys for any reason (provided they weren't purchased via fraudulent means) If they did, you could file a lawsuit against them.
You agreed to the TOS but that agreement can't supersede local consumer protection laws..
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And those rules might again be "illegal", as they attempt to restrict what you do with the product you purchased, which might be .. illegal :>
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If there's a profit to be made by selling them, then sell them yourself. It's up to you to make sure you're getting a fair trade, if you care about that. If you think it's worth more than they are offering, don't do the trade. It's not like they are holding a gun to your head.
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I think it's more about ethics, but you have a point.
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Yes, it's about the ethics, about human behavior, about being honest and how to treat people.
I don't care about making profit.
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Unfortunately, in today's world honesty is in short supply. To the point where we feel the need to commend a person for not being a scumbag.
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The OP would of traded the key as a "Bundle Key", the person who bought it and sold it on G2A would never of disclosed that the key came from a bundle, therefore they are misrepresenting the product in order to gain more than its value. That's what the OP is mad about, not that he got more out of the deal.
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Firstly, there's no way to add notes on G2A for things like that even if you wanted to. Secondly, buy low / sell high is a standard feature of market economics - pretty much every time you buy something this profiteering occurs. Thirdly, when a game has been bundled, Steam and other stores will continue to sell games at a high price (and high profit margin). Are they unethical for not adding a link to the bundle so that you can get it cheaper?
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Exactly. If someone can make a profit out of it, good for them. If you don't want other people making a profit out of it, you should price it higher and try to get that profit yourself. Who knows how hard those people need to work for that profit or how patient they need to be.
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+1
As long as I've gotten what I wanted in exchange for my game, I don't care what the other person does with it. I know some people have made a good profit from games I traded to them, and I say good for them. I didn't lose anything from them reselling the game.
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May I ask what this 3 times bundled game was that's so valuable on the grey market?
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edit | removed the game name, don't want to engage others selling their keys, mistakes were made.. damn | edit over
(right now there's copies for 5 & 6€ available but they sell fast as hell, even for 13$ the copies are gone quickly)
Edit: Just one of the games, he has a huge list of games that he knows are valuable.
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And what's the deal with "The Ship" game? It was even given away for free...
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Yes, just another example. I don't know who's even buying those games.
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The developer is re-releasing the game in a new engine as online multi-player only.
The old version of the game included a single player version that was discontinued on Steam. Discontinued stuff tends to trade at a premium to collectors.
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But the single player version is still sold on Steam, isn't it this one?: http://store.steampowered.com/app/2420/
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Yes and I'm surprised it's back. It was gone for quite a while and due to be replaced with:
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The Ship has lil value to collectors since I'm pretty sure every major one has a copy already :P. My best guess would be the loyalty discount that the devs are granting for the remastered version. It's not much, but that is the only reason that I can think of where someone wants copies of a gamer that was given away for free and bundled to death.
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Odd, I don't get why said trader wouldn't just buy 50 of the IG Monday bundles it was in. Nor do I get why people would pay 13$ on untrustworthy sites like G2A for a 16$ game.
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I think it's because it is not available to purchase in some regions but you can activate that game with a key.
And they didn't buy 50 of the bundles because they were probably really cheap at first, now stock is getting lower and real value unfolds.
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That game is e.g. not available in the German steam store. Combined with what geoglitch said about less copies out there now so price increases for it. That could be some of the reasons why it sells at a higher price.
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So, from i get. If i sell my car to someone and that someone sells it later on a higher price, then that someone is a liar and not ethical at all...
How does that make sense?
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I'm concerned only about my trade with them. If I'm satisfied, I can't give less f**ks. It's not my key/gift anymore, not my problem. They profit from it? Good for them, who wants a loss?
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The only thing that I care about is the fact that these bundles affect naive developers the most.
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You got a very good point here! This is another huge issue - the developers receive 0 (in words: zero) of the profit they make.
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developers don't put successful games in bundles, they put games which have stalled in sales or they don't think will get enough nonliterary without the bundle exposure. That isn't speaking on quality, it's speaking on games which aren't selling the way the developer/publisher hoped they would.
That isn't always the case, some exceptions exist, it's just a promotion tool, akin to giving away gamer keys to help draw attention to the game..
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Hatred for Vanishing of Ethan Carter, sounds like you made out like a bandit on that deal, even if he went and resold the game.
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CAPITALISM BB!
Really though, the more effort you put into your trading the more you deserve -- and the more you will earn.
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actually... that's how economics works... You trade, buy and sell things to make some profit. If you buy something, never use it and than sell it lover than you bought it for, it is not good for you... if you are good and sell that thing to somebody for more than you bought it, than you just made a profit... and that's how it works... don't bother him for it, he bought it, it is his properity now, so don't mind how he sell it... Just don't buy from him if you don't like his actions and skip it... That's everything I can say to you now
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This is how economics work but not trading with games, as in (my definition): finding a new nice home for games you don't want / already have and getting something back you want.
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you are finding a new home... after the person you traded it with sells it to someone who wants it. Look at the trader as a broker, who merely facilitates connecting games that are unwanted with people who want them.
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I agree with dingbat, the game you're trading away will eventually reach a nice home in the end.
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Haha yea lost in translation or desperately trying to seek for the right words but failing in doing so.. Anyways. If someone read my thread + additional topics, they know what I mean. :D
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i just don't think that's the thing that would bother me the most :)
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I love it that you bring up that it's illegal to resell bundle keys, when it's equally "illegal" to trade the keys. (note: not actually illegal, just against the ToS).
My only concern when I make a trade is if I believe I got a fair deal. If I have a game I don't want, and I can trade it for a game I do want, then I'm happy. Of course, not all games are equal, so that might mean getting two games for one, or some such stuff. After the trade is completed, I don't care what the other person does with it.
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This is pretty IRL bussiness, some people with no ethics and moral made (and are making right now) a lot of money from people that have no clue about some matters... Sad world
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As long as everyone in the chain traded voluntarily and nobody was taken advantage of or lied to then I'm OK with re-trades. If I want to sell a stock or future now to buy something else, should I get mad that you resell it next week for a higher price? I may get more value out of selling it now and getting into a different deal. I prefer if everyone involved gets value out of my transactions, it feels good and it eases future trades.
Big companies try to hide it but many countries have ruled shrink wrap clauses are not legally enforceable. In fact, some states have ruled it a felony for legally sophisticated entities to try to trick people into giving up their rights. For example mandatory arbitration clauses have been struck down repeatedly, entire contracts thrown out and companies fined for inserting them. What they're banking on is that most people don't know.
If Indiegala, etc really cared about protecting developers they wouldn't sell 20 copies of a bundle of single player games to the same buyers 3x a week and if publishers really cared about their customers they wouldn't price the game at $40 with $40 worth of DLC and then sell the key to resellers for $0.10.
The real problem recently is stolen credit cards which may put several small resellers & developers who sold directly out of business and cause some of the survivors to switch to bitcoin.
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How can you say "As long as everyone in the chain traded voluntarily and nobody was taken advantage of or lied to then I'm OK with re-trades."
And then go on to disregard IndieGala's rules using flawed logic. If a developer and IndieGala provide you with a cheap bundle on the condition that you don't resell it, and then you do, both the developer and IndieGala are being lied to and taken advantage of.... lol
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Trading bundle game keys is almost somewhat not promoted by bundle sites since you may buy a bundle with a stolen credit card and eventually the game you gave to another trader will be eventually revoked.
But when you are into trading you actually trade your unwanted games for something that you want so your garbage is someone else's treasure and the opposite. what you are trying to say is that you feel bad that you didn't take the opportunity to sell your game and make the corresponding profit that the other trader made with your game.
Also for example Grid 2 was on a $1 tier on a recent HB, traders wouldn't trade it for some other game been on a $1 tier on another HB. it's not only the money you spent to buy a game in a bundle that defines the exchange value of another game. it's also how much wanted is the game by people.
You should choose what you actually want for you. Own more games that might like or find time to play them sometime in the future or sell to grey markets and maybe buy something your really want with the money.(but there are a lot of taxes and cuts while selling games to places like them, just read their terms)
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Edit, to clear up a couple of things: The use of this thread is to raise awareness. It is about ethics, about rights and about justice. There's very different definitions for words like trading around and I only notice that now. Trading, to me, is a simple and fair exchange of games that each party already has or don't want but happen to own it because of buying a bundle.
This thread is not much about the real profit someone gains. It's about ethics.
So. There's this massive trader on Barter that just announced his happy 1000th completed trade celebration.
Great you think?
No.
In reality he's just someone that trades for games he can resell for profit (sometimes huge profit..). I didn't even know some bundle games would sell that well on G2A & co. But I got suspicious about him a long time ago. It dawned on me when I saw he completed a trade that looked SO unrealistic to me. The Vanishing of Ethan Carter (his nuuvem key) for a game that has been bundled 3x and is not really wanted in the trading community anymore?
I just needed to investigate the case and found that specific game is selling very well for 10-12$ on the grey markets.
I know many people I traded with would resell my games because of them explicitly wanting gift links or Steam gifts. I only ask for those things if I want to make a giveaway for a game or I don't know the trader really well. Most of the times I didn't care too much but things have changed.
I can never be 100% sure what happens to my games but I'm separating myself more and more from trading anyways..
The only reason why it bothers me today a lot is because said person lied to me for half a year, he called me a conspiracy theorist because I questioned his sources and actions (I started asking out of curiosity where he's getting games from, not even to insult or judge him).
He made me believe I'm crazy. He even called me "sick" today.
The real issue here is almost all of those resellers are LYING. It is illegal to resell bundle keys. They have second accounts to hide their identity and they lie right into your face. They use you to make profit, even if you think you did a good trade. I don't want to support this grey market stuff anymore and nasty traders not being honest but leaving with a good reputation.
today's rant's over, go get your popcorn
PS: I'm looking forward to play your game, Mr. master trader. You told me you need RPG Maker gift links because you are still looking for people to hire to work on your game, which is why you need a 100% working key for later. ;) One of many sweet little lies.
PPS: In case someone asks why I even care: Read the text again.
PPPS: Mistrust and being cautious, imho, are good things. Don't trust anyone on the internet if you don't know them for a longer time.
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