Shieeet son.
(This is what people get for following false youtube prophets... Luckily everyone is still on time to move to the Two Best Friends Play church, the hypest cult on youtube.)
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These guys are ones of the very few commentary youtubers I can stand.
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Markiplier,RadBrad,UberHaxorNova(or pretty much any of the Creatures),GassyMexican,maaaaybe CaptainSparkles(sure he plays Minecraft,but he's actually one of the few who don't scream at everything that happens in-game,and he does some stuff different than everyone). All of these YouTubers are pretty good I think
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"Officially" sometimes is far from the truth. Maybe Yogscast messed up and they want the devs to take the blame? They did it as a "team" Yogscast included. It's not like YC has nothing to do with the game...
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According to an interview with the project lead at Winterkewl today, the Yogscast guys took $150k of the money at some point and were supposed to be spending $100k of it on hiring a lead programmer for the game. They never did, the project faltered as a result and the money was never seen again.
Who'da thought a bunch of Youtube "celebrities" would be untrustworthy?!
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That's if that's true, though. 100K is a lot. Yogscast could get in legal trouble here if they're simply just stealing money, no?
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At least Tobuscus can kinda sing (but yeah, his letsplay are worthless), the rest of those you mentioned however...
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True. I prefer watching youtubers that just do Lets Plays of popular games that I am curious about. Their commentary isn't annoying and excessive but interesting enough.
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Assumptions, rumors and selfish people all around.
While it is quite certain that not all the information has come up yes, that just means that you can't make judgements either way.
No... Yogscast didn't "scam" 13.000+ people, what they did do was make some very foolish business decisions and are now left to clean up the mess.
Did they get the $150k and stick part of it in their own pockets? You don't know... What we do know is that Yogventures utterly failed and that (as far as I'm aware) there are no decisions made as to what to do with the code that IS there. (Many fans want it published so people can work in it themselves...)
What we also know is that Yogscast made a deal with the guys behind TUG to offer everyone a key from that game (which IMO is a very admirable compromis), though I can see that not everyone is interested in that and some might already OWN that game.
At this point refunds are a tricky issue - there have been refunds reported earlier but apparently thats off the table now.
And we also know that Lewis mentioned looking into further "rewards" to be looked at still.
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You are sort of right however this is not the first issue with Yogscast, so I just can't take their side. They've already did some pretty shady things like abusing developers into paying for their videos, badmouthing developers etc.
Also notice the questionmark at the end of the topic's title!
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Yes people have a right to be pissed off - that doesn't mean that Yogscast is scamming people.
Lets get something clear here - if Lewis made some stupid decisions in ignorance, trusting Winterkewl to live up to their side of the bargain. And Winterkewl did not, resulting in the current situation.
With all the money (supposedly) being used on Yogventures...
Yogscast has NO obligation whatsoever to do anything, instead they do take steps to offer alternatives.
THAT is admirable. I'm not saying its the ideal solution, I'm just saying that they could've completely abandoned it without consequences.
There is a distinct difference between saying that they are purposefully scamming people (an accusation that currently isn't exactly based in fact... But in speculation and guesswork) and saying that they've made a big mess out if it and people have a right to be pissed (and a right to want clear answers.)
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Correct - if anyone did the scamming, it was Winterkewl.
But again, there is no proof if intent and to me it seems like they were more incompetent than malicious.
Effectively Yogscast got Winterkewl to initiate the kickstarter and to create the game.
Yogscast then tied their name (and reputation) to the project, and as such demanded a certain degree of quality. Because of that and because of the missed milestones on Winterkewls side the game never got to go into a form of Early Access and Winterkewl never managed to accrue additional funding.
The project ran dry and ended up failing as it did.
I am quite interested to see where all the money went (and I don't accept Lewis' "Saying anything now won't solve anything" excuse).
But I doubt we'll ever get to see a full accounting of all the funding.
Ultimately, this seems to be a case of overestimating ones abilities and severely underestimating costs involved.
Given the nature of the project however, I hope that Yogscast will be able to deliver more than the currently provided TUG keys (and also deliver the physical rewards where possible to those backers).
We'll just have to wait and see on that account.
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Winterkewl has obligations, since they are the one that made the kickstarter. Yogcast doesn't.
Backing a Kickstarter project is like investing in a startup company. You may get a great reward, or it can flop and you get nothing. You're not buying a game, you're funding it's development. Getting a copy of the game at the end is actually a bonus.
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I don't agree with your opinion. I believe YOU ARE buying a game (or reserving a copy to be precise) when funding it on Kickstarter. What is NOT guaranteed is the final quality of the game - you may get a great reward (awesome game) or it can flop (you get a 2/10 game). But not releasing the game AT ALL is like the guy from that startup company you invested in taking all the money and running away with it, and that's called a scam.
High quality of the game in the end is a bonus, not it's mere existence. Otherwise it should say 'DONATE' instead of 'PLEDGE' on project page.
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You do understand that the word PLEDGE means "a promise to give money", or in this case to DONATE a specific amount if the Kickstarter is successful. Game keys are always part of the rewards tiers, and usually lower tiers don't even get the game once it's completed. You are crowdfunding a project with a promise, if you donated enough, to reward you if/when the game gets completed.
As Kiskstarter says themselves on their Trust & Safety page:
Kickstarter is not a store. People aren’t buying things that already exist — they’re helping to create new things.
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I understand that Pledge has many meanings and in this case this one should be used:
a. Something given or held as security to guarantee payment of a debt or fulfillment of an obligation.
b. The condition of something thus given or held: put an article in pledge.
Of course you are not buying something that already exists. But your help in creating something new should end up in the creation of something new, so in fact YOU ARE buying something that doesn't exist yet. If your help leads to nothing being created in the end-it's a scam. Come on man, they took 500k and you feel it's alright? I mean, those people that took that money for some meaningless work are probably pretty happy about it but those backers and we as gamers - you really think it's ok? How about if I made a Kickstarter for "The Greatest Game in The World" for a mere 100k usd and then after couple months went "Oops, seems like that was out of my league and all the money has been spent, here's how I spent it: 'paying myself for work and hardware over those 2 months' ".
Seriously you want this kind of stuff to become common?
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I'm fairly certain they're using the word due to the fact that no exchange of money happens when you pledge an amount to the campaign, just like when you pledge to make a donation to a charity over the phone. They're only taking money from you once the campaign has been successful. The meaning you posted makes no sense in the current scenario .
I'm not saying it's Ok and that they shouldn't be held accountable, I'm merely stating that these things are bound to happen from time to time. Some projects are scam, others are just led by teams who do not have the know how to bring them to completion. It's up to the backers to do their research before blindly investing money in any project.
I've backed 2 Kickstarter projects so far. One of them was for a piece of software that the developers wanted to expand into something much more powerful. I knew that at the very least I was getting the software in it's current state. The other one is a game from a company that has already published other titles in the past. I'm confident it will be brought to fruition but I'm well aware that if, for any reason, the game was cancelled then I would have thrown my money to the trash.
Getting the game is part of the rewards, no matter how you want to see it. You're providing funds for the company to work on the project, period. If the project fails, you get nothing. People have every right to be upset and it IS admirable that Yogcast is trying to, at the very least, give something back to the backers. (Although, I'd very much like to know what level of involvement they had in the whole affair.)
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Yeah saw that too, doesn't mean all Youtubers are like them, for first their game was just supported in Kickstarter just because of their fans, the game wasn't even good, but just because they are who they're are ppl gave them money, now they cancelled it and screwed their loyal fans, and what's about the money? Seems they don't like to just give it back, making it worse. Also asking that much for a game like this...
I really hate when ppl do this things, same happens here, ppl do giveaways and stuff like that and never give the games to the winners, they do it just for selfish promotions, also I saw sometimes ppl doing giveaways directly on Youtube and dissimulating like someone won the giveaway, sometimes is very obvious they're lying about it, but most of the time you can't even proof if the winner received their win.
Also in case of Yogscast I really hate how they just random select some ppl and make them famous on Youtube, sometimes you see a new "Yogscaster" and you ask yourself "who is this person? did ever anyone saw this person? from where this person came? why it just appear in the Yogscast list once without any explaining?" he just appears in their friends list, and ppl just go and subscribe to him, and doesn't matter to them if he is a good or a bad Youtuber.
Also another article about Yogscast http://www.pcgamer.com/2011/11/24/minecon-yogscast-fall-out-down-to-stress-related-misunderstanding-says-notch/ and how they act to ppl, but this one is old.
They were one of the first Youtubers I subscribed, but latest 2 years their videos were just boring, so I kept watching them more and more rarely, so I unsubscribed, now I'm mostly subscribed to Spanish Youtubers.
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As far as I know from both sides this isn't the Yogscasts fault. Winterkewl were the ones who ran the kickstarter and the ones who made the big mistakes (Which I personally feel were more of a scam.)
Winterkewl apparently gave the Yogscast Lewis 150k to hire a lead developer but he has replied on the Yogscast subreddit saying he won't go into detail about what happened but that is far from the truth. I believe the Yogscast want to keep from saying any bad against Winterkewl without solid proof as it would look like slander.
The other 410K? where did that go. 35K went to an artist which was a GOOD FRIEND of theirs, which personally feels like they gave him the money on purpose for him to leave.
However the Yogscast have said they will give anyone who donated things (I'm not sure what but they have all been given TUG codes) whilst Winterkewl have only been throwing the blame around which personally I find a little suspicious
I however wont take a side in the arguments as although I enjoy watching their videos I wouldn't condone them stealing.
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In that sense it is Yogscast fault - atleast to the point that they should've made sure that better agreements were made.
They kinda just let it go and handed it off.
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By connecting the Yogscast name and reputation to this project and openly promoting it on their channel they get some degree of responsibility.
While they aren't directly responsible for the project itself, it is in their best interest to make sure that the project gets to a positive completion. Afterall, its their reputation that is at stake.
Given that, I would've expected them to keep closer contact with Winterkewl instead of waiting this long and letting it get out of hand.
So no, they're not directly responsible for the completion of the game, thats all on Winterkewl.
But they are responsible for keeping up their own reputation and as such it was in their best interest to make sure the game didn't go wrong the way it did.
Thats what I mean with - "In a way it is their fault".
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what they're doing seems in bad taste but, I hope it doesn't start to become a thing where youtubers begin to do stupid ambitious decisions because "they're famous and popular and can do anything". Who knows how many other youtubers got it into their heads that they deserve a game about them
EDIT: with the accountability thing, im just pointing out a viewpoint but perhaps that doesn't affect them if they didn't offer rewards. (completed game maybe wouldn't be considered reward) Unless they offered posters soundtrack etc.
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Kickstarter is not about buying a product, it's about backing a project. Projects can implode, fail, explode, change drastically, etc. If the project fails or you trusted the wrong people, you have no-one to blame but yourself.
In the case of Kickstarter specifically, there's some liability if the Project Creator doesn't deliver, but it's aimed mostly at creators who have acted with malice or didn't put a good faith effort.
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I wondered what happened to that game... Much shame to both Yogscast and Winterkewl. How could they be so careless about money. Paying a guy without stipulating obligations to stay at the job and finish the work? How stupid. This is just completely a disgrace. Both organizations should be ashamed. The way Yogscast is handling it is atrocious too. Taking people's money then saying they're under no obligation to do anything? This is literally a scam. They may be giving another game out and giving rewards out but that's not what anyone payed for at all.
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Well, this is certainly interesting.
On the one hand, yes, Lewis is completely correct in that they aren't under obligation to do anything. Essentially their role in the promised game, at first, was licensing their brand image and name to Winterkewl, which doesn't give them any sort of involvement in the game's development beyond some minor control over design - after all, if the game didn't meet their standards or portrayed their brand in such a way that they found inappropriate or defamatory, they had legal rights to protect it. However, Lewis demanding that the remaining kickstarter money be transferred to Yogscast so they can effectively seize control of the project is where things get interesting.
Technically speaking, Lewis and the Yogs had no right to that money. The fact that it has since disappeared only serves to incriminate Lewis, but I can understand his reluctance to release a statement on where that money has gone. At this point, anything he says regarding the project is going to be picked apart, misconstrued, and ultimately used against him. Already now, as we can see, the media is absolving Winterkewl of any blame and instead pursuing Lewis as the villain in this matter, based on his reluctance to divulge where the money has gone.
Now, on the other hand, Lewis having touched that money in any way does make him partially responsible for the failure of this game. By demanding and receiving the money, he put himself in a position where he had all the control of the project, and the failure to hire a lead programmer makes this disaster fall on him. However, there are many ways this could have happened; Lewis could have been under the impression that Mr. Vale would ultimately be making the hiring decisions, as it is his project, and he would have final say on whether or not this person was hired. After all, my understanding of the reason he demanded the money was to protect the assets raised by the community from being taken by such problems as the artist receiving a 35K lump sum for doing absolutely nothing but finding a better job. Alternatively, it could have been his intention all along to hire a lead programmer, but been unable to find one. Or, perhaps the media portrayal of him is correct and he took the money without any intention of hiring a programmer, saw a chance and took it.
Whatever the reasons for the lead programmer not being hired and the eventual disappearance of the money, Lewis is not solely responsible for this game's failure, but he is implicated and that puts him in a very sticky position indeed. The backers of the project have every right to be outraged, and it's going to be a very interesting adventure from here on out on how Lewis plans to clean up this mess and get rid of the nasty shadow this casts on Yogscast.
TL;DR: Lewis isn't the only one at fault for this mess. Blaming him and his company for the failure of this game is understandable, but unfair, as Winterkewl does deserve some of the blame for poor handling of the money raised, including surrendering the leftover money to Lewis, who was not entitled to it.
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Well, if some people thought that an indie studio (with only 6 people) could do WoW with Yogscast, I think that's everyone's fault.
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“Although we’re under no obligation to do anything,” Yogcast co-founder Lewis Brindley said in an email to backers - "“Although we’re under no obligation to do anything,” “we’re under no obligation to do anything,” - Lol, dumbasses. Taking $500,000 from people backing a project and pretending that you can blow it all on pizza and drugs is fraud. I do hope I hear about them getting sued to death and shut down.
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Well, to tell the truth - from the beggining it was pointed that they just rent their image to the game - ofc they were promoting it, they were to get a cut from sales. But the responsibility for delivering game was in hands of devs. It's like blaming Messi for new FIFA being shit, because he promoted it.
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but they DID take a large chunk of the money, if they touched the funds then they are responsible for the project.
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That is the entire point.
You you are lending your backing/image/logo/support so you are responsible. If you say: "yum, these Franks Peanuts are delicious, go and buy some." You are responsible for any good or ill that follows.
If you endorse a Game Project that collects money, and turns out to be a scam, you are an accessory to fraud.
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ehm, sure sherlock - so someone comes to you and tells you "well, hello mr celebrity, we want you to be a face of our project for which we will pay you 5/10/15% of it's revenue"
And if they fail to deliver you're supposed to pay 100|% to all the backers?
What you and most people seems to don't get is that comercial face of the project is just an "employee" of the deveoper. The one to blame are devs. And surely YC could just don't give a shit, yet they try to give backers anything in return. They don't have to. But as the celebrities they got hit by this more than you can imagine even if it's not their fault, so they try to minimise the fallout.
Any person KickStarting this project made a deal with a DEVELOPER not with YOGSCAST! So they should seek any compensation with the DEV. End of Story.
And no - if developer turns out to be scammer, HE IS THE SCAMMER, not the faces of the project.
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Eh, not really. Lets say John Q. Athlete is on the cover of a box of Frosted Flakes. Turns out some Frosted Flakes boxes were poisoned and the company making them is sued.
Is Mr. Athlete who lent his face to the box cover responsible for a percentage of the lawsuit? No, of course not. He was just part of the marketing/promotions; Kelloggs would be 100% responsible for the actual product.
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true, i have no idea why they all say YC have to take the blame, why they are the one lending the image only,
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1) There was ":)" for a reason.
2) Well, when Mr Athlete gets money from each sold product - when your $ is directly linked to how much boxes are sold - then in perfect world he should be part of a blame if he didn't made proper research and didn't checked if he is selling poison (and from what I can see, Yogcast really didn't made a single minute of research if they went into game making business with someone who didn't had a team nor knew how to write proper contracts).
Of course I know he shouldn't become James Bond and secretly get inside that factory and check it. But when he gets in bed with company that was created to deal with toxic wastes and now they start making cereals he shouldn't be surprised when shit hits the fan.
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and why should he be the one to blame - there's already someone to blame. With your attitude - imagine you're becoming an employee of a corporation one day. You just do your work - if you're a coder, you code, if you're a celebrity poster - you pose for bunch of photos and make few videos. There is no difference. And then by shitty decision made by corporation CEO, decision you had no influenco on, one day you must give away all money you earned to pay back people CEO scammed?
The thing is backers wanrt to get back their money, it's simple as that, and as they don't believe they can get it from ones responsible (which is obvious as well) they will turn out to anyone just to try and force it, be it justified or not. And in this case it's not. That is simple law. End of story.
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the fact is DEVs could easily just Kickstart a game without YC and not paying them. But if they did they would be not sure if they would get kickstarted. So they decided to pay for YC from this money to make sure they get kickstarted. Whatever they did with rest of $$ after that is they own responsibility.
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and no, I'm no fanboy of Yogscast, they annoy me since the early days of making colaboration vids with TB, yet me not liking them is no reason to just start a flame war against them. Promotional contracts is something normal in every kind of show business. And blaming "famous" personalities instead of people that actually screwed up is just plain stupid.
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And I quote "Kickstarter does not guarantee projects or investigate a creator's ability to complete their project. It is the responsibility of the project creator to complete their project as promised, and the claims of this project are theirs alone."
also refer to https://www.kickstarter.com/trust Lol.
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Lets use a parallel to what happened.
Characters:
There once was a noble king who the nobles supported. The town was having trouble with a dragon. The nobles came together and trusted the king to deal with the problem and so it was. It was decided that a group effort was needed, the nobles donated huge sums and gave it to the king.
The king called upon a familiar brave knight. He explained the situation and he was ready to take the quest upon him. Before the king handed him the funds to help in on his noble quest. The knight however only appeared noble and brave, he actually had never battled a dragon, just as the king hadn't ever sent anyone to battle one. The knight hired a wizard to help him on the journey with some heals but the wizard had a sudden problem, they money was sent to him but the wizard never came, the wizard was called over the seas.
The knight pleaded with the king and explained his troubles and the king instead of giving him more funds started to doubt the whole quest, maybe the dragon wasn't that bothersome at all, come to think of it the only time they had trouble with a dragon was when the nobles and king visited another city, a city that was attacked by another dragon called Minucraftiom. Now the king thought and saw that the knight wasn't so noble at all, his armor wasn't cared for and his blonde hair was actually died. He didn't need to organize a quest to slay the dragon and become as famous as the other king had become for slaying Minucraftiom and decided on a new plan.
He sent the knight back on the quests journey but had secretly cut off many of the gold purses the knight had thinking with cunning and logic, if the knight is as good as he says he is he will see proof of his brave deeds on the road and regain the kings trust. This however sadly never happened and the knight saw no happy ending and called it quits.
So the blame lies mostly on Yogscast for hiring and trusting the money with someone. Obviously the actual fault was done by the developers by not meeting deadlines but as there is such a thing as a chain of command the ultimate people to be at fault are the ones who had the money and power to choose who they want the developers to be. They could sue everyone but I doubt any money would be gotten back any time soon.
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One problem with your heroic tale. Take a look at the Kickstarter page, it's being ran by the devs themselves. Yogscast lent their likeness to the project, but they were not the source of the funds nor the organizers of the fundraising.
It seems like the devs approached Yogs with the idea, were given the OK, ran the Kickstarter, and then fucked up.
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How I understand it is the only legal obligation, at all, for developers hosting Kickstarters is to actually use all the money for the project they received it for, otherwise it is fraud, pure and simple.
As long as they try to create what the promised, in good faith, they are within the law. That said, I am 99% sure they can't just say, we quit, for whatever reason (even legitimately realising that they simply cannot deliver the project), before that money runs out. If they realise they cannot do exactly what the planned, with what they have, they can change their scope, and the project is allowed to change, even drastically, but the only legally acceptable absolute failure case is running out of money.
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Re: Legal Question
I would say yes and no.
There is no legal mechanism to force them to precisely detail their expenditures to backers.
But, if the backers brought a class action fraud suit against them, that would certainly be one of the things that court would make them do for the case.
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No they don't really need to use all the money. Just provide product with promises features and physical products they promised. I'm not even sure stretch goals need to be met. Just the promised reward tiers.
Still, it's really good to see Kickstarter to implode, gets people thinking who to trust who to not.
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Was the game any good tho? Saw some early gameplay back then, don't look special or exceptional compared to any sandbox building game.
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Story <- Read it
Read this too
Artist gets $35.000 for two weeks of doing nothing
inb4 fanboys attacking
the following statement by Yogscast: "“Although we’re under no obligation to do anything, instead we’re going to do our best to make this right, and make you really glad you backed the project!”" it basically means "f**k you suckers, we took your money and now we might have pity on you and throw some cheap bone." C'mon they're easily one of the wealthiest "youtubers" and they could do refunds (or even fund a large chunk the game in the first place) they just don't care.
I'm sick and tired of these so called "youtubers" parading as businessmen and celebrities. Most of them are untalented idiots and it would be hilarious to see them mess up if not for the people they harm.
accountability
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