Working my way on it, I'm really enjoying it, just don't have the free time to play anything :/
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Neither do I. I should've been studying all this time, haha.
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Thanks for not spoiling anything, i know its an amazing ending that's all. Still have it there though, if i start playing it i won't let it go untill i'm done, and that means trouble for my studies.
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Wait until you are close to the end and you have to make a choice; I don't want to spoil it, but there's one that if you make it a song starts playing and it's a really powerful moment in the game.
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Non-cliched ending is unfortunately balanced by full on cliched sexism throughout the game, but it's still fantastic and worth playing.
additional: So after a long thread I'm more than happy to come back here and say that my first few posts were inflammatory, blunt and did a terrible job of getting my point across. I think rewording the above to "The game's great, it's interesting that even after creating such an amazing world they went with fairly standard male/female roles - I'd have liked to have seen more involvement from the female character and maybe being able to play as a girl Kid would be nice." would have resulted in a better discussion. Maybe less personal insults too.
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I vehemently disagree with that article. Their gender has NO impact on the story and they wouldn't be better characters if they were women, they would be exactly the same as they are now with the sole exception of their tits. That change would scream "affirmative action" to me. I mean, would Team Fortress 2 be better if the playable characters were women?
And Bastion is already better than most games in that regard. If you want to bitch about sexism in videogames, I'd recommend you the Gothic series, where every single woman is a whore, slave or a farm-woman with no importance to the plot whatsoever.
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Their gender has no impact on the story - it obviously does for you or you wouldn't feel so threatened by the idea of it being changed.
"This isn't that bad, anyway this other thing is worse" well you've certainly won me over with that fantastic reasoning...
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Threatened is a really strong word, I just find it completely and utterly unnecessary. If the game was released with female lead characters, I would have enjoyed it the same as I did with male characters and I would be against changing them into males, because it would be just as pointless as changing their male counterparts. It's like when in new edition of Return of the Jedi, George Lucas replaced Sebastian Shaw with Hayden Christensen. It's a banal cosmetic change? Sure. Does it change anything vital about the movie? Not really. Was it necessary? Nope. Am I against it because it's pointless and it was made simply to pander to a few fans and Lucas himself? Yeah.
And that wasn't an argument, just an example of a game that you should divert your attention to if you care about stuff like that.
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But like the overwhelming majority of games it wasn't released with female lead characters. Can you see why this is a bad thing? Perhaps it's not for you individually but for society as a whole? Imagine what it's like to be female and play games, or better yet ask some women.
To be clear, I don't have a specific vendetta against Bastion. I think about all this stuff quite a bit and when I clicked on this thread I happened to be in a provocative mood.
[So now here's my bias showing, I realise I've assumed you're male based on what you've written. Can't be 100% sure even from checking your profile so please excuse me if I'm wrong!]
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you and the human of that blog, will never complaing about this, if the main character was female... and probably neither if al the character are female (what will probably sexist too, but what ever)... this is just the usual "people bitching around, becuase they can" thing...
if you are going to really complaing about this problem, sexism in our society, or what ever, do it with a really sexist game, bastion is not...
enyway, you dont give a fuck about my opinion, because is not the thing that you want to hear, so, have a nice day
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Well then we disagree, but you are wrong in saying I don't care about your opinion. A nice day to you as well.
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I think this is perfectly fair, but not a reason to single out Bastion. If in a world free of sexism there would be a roughly 50/50 split between male and female protagonists, who's to say whether Bastion falls in the "legitimately male" half or not? It's an industry-wide problem, and Bastion feels like a strange poster boy for them to pick out.
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Indeed, but I didn't see my comments as singling out Bastion. I'm sure that blog mentions lots of other games too - not sure why you think they've picked Bastion as a poster boy..?
I'd say it's important to discuss specific examples as well as how it's a problem across the entire industry.
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It seems to me that sexism (or racism, or whatever other form of bigotry) that's not entirely intentional is probably the kind that it's most productive to point out.
Someone who thinks "LOL woman, get back in the kitchen and make me a sandwich!" is a clever joke is probably not someone you're going to reach with a logical argument. On the other hand, someone who has subconsciously adopted some mildly sexist feelings, maybe through consumption of other mass media that's been similarly influenced, might actually stop and consider the merits of the case.
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What? no, absolutely not. I cannot even think of sexism in this game. The "Kid" had a personality that the creators incorporated in that visual, man or woman.
As for the narrator, dat voice.
The woman sung marvelously, I cannot find sexism in any part of the game. Just no.
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Like I said previously, the three men do all the Important Stuff and Make Stuff Happen. The one woman mainly sits about and isn't really important - she just looks/sounds nice and is something to rescue.
Maybe you can't agree that the term sexism applies to this scenario, OK. But when the majority of games present themselves like this it's most definitely not a good thing.
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That is also very true Lunk, but the other side of the coin with "barely there" racism, or sexism, or what-have-you, is the fact that if you look hard enough for something you will always be able to find it. After reading that article it seems that the site is going to find it no matter what game they look into.
When a game like Bastion is called sexist I find it to be a tremendous stretch. The idea of sexism is almost forced due to going into the game looking for it. There are plenty of examples of truly sexist trends (and entire games), I just don't think Bastion is even in the least.
It is also a largely ignored fact in the "sexism of male protagonists in games" argument that they are largely being targeted to a consumer base that is vastly more populated by males, so characters are largely going to be chosen to represent the largest part of the gaming population to protect sales. Often it is argued to "just make a female too as an option" like it is a simple copy/paste job and that art, animation, programming, and voicework are free.
tl;dr: If someone goes out looking for something to be offended by they more often than not are going to find it.
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To clarify a point, it was me that called the game sexist. That site didn't use the word at all.
Just because Bastion isn't as overtly aimed at men as other games doesn't mean it's not worth discussing - but I really don't mean to single it out. I enjoyed the game and probably didn't stop to consider its male bias while playing, but as that article says it's a real shame when such a great game still defaulted to treating women as essentially a pretty object.
Do you have proof that vastly more men buy games? I don't believe that's true.
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The ESA estimates it at 58/42 and 60/40 male female over all types of games (2011 and 2010 numbers) overall, but in "core games" the percentage of male gamers increases further over females. In the ESA (and other) studies a larger disparity in the percentage of women play browser, MMO, and puzzle games than other types of games than men. There are no definitive numbers on male/female purchases but combining the 60/40 split and the added effect of a majority of women gamers playing more casual games it sways the ratio farther towards a male audience for a game like Bastion. Maybe a "vast" majority was the wrong word, but for core action games it is a strong majority of male purchasers, probably in the neighborhood of 2:1 or better.
http://www.theesa.com/facts/pdfs/ESA_EF_2011.pdf
I am not saying there aren't subtle signs of gender favoritism in the game, they are there if you focus on them, as they are everywhere in every form of entertainment, society, and life. Another aspect of the issue is games are largely created by males, who form the characters and stories. If they are creating a hero as they see themselves wanting to be they are making a male and he will be aiding/saving the woman, as they grew up seeing in everything from Disney movies, to fairy tales, and in every other form of media presented to them. The entirety of someone's experience is going to shade their creation.
Yes there are some things that aren't optimal for gender equality in this game but it is a leap to begin calling it sexist over them. I don't understand, from their point of view, how the game could have made it better. Would they have been happy if the female was "driving the story" as the villain? or would that be worse by casting women in a negative light? Did the playable character need to be female to make it OK?
As far as i am concerned I didn't see Zia as a weak character, she was alone and surviving in a shattered world, playing the role of a Bard for the game, and influencing the entire mood and setting of the title with her music, but I guess since she wasn't walking around with a hammer and a gun her role wasn't good enough and the game is sexist and male partisan for it.
It is an artistic creation and when people break it apart to find tropes and social imbalances where they don't need to be hunted I find it off-putting.
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I can believe that estimate but disagree that it's of any revelance - releasing games that are less male-orientated can only be a good thing for both sales and our society. Yes there'll always be some games that a lot of women would find offputting but why not try to improve the ones that are already on the right track?
You're completely right that life experiences will affect your creations, so let's create a little more gender balance now so the next generation of game designers of both sexes are slightly less indoctrinated into a male-dominated mindset.
That article did say she would have appreciated seeing the villian as a female.
It's not an issue of whether Zia is 'weak' or 'strong', the writer's point (which I agree with) is that she had little relevance to the plot or depth as a character beyond being the Lady That You Rescue and considering how much effort went into the design of the game this - most likely completely unintentional - male bias is a real shame.
Remember that 'where they don't need to be hunted' is your opinion and a lot of people would disagree with you.
This whole thread has been really interesting - I that it's very easy to see these kind of discussions as simply an attack on the game (and my first couple posts were certainly very blunt statements) but this can take attention away from the fact that there's constructive criticism in there too.
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I've been on internet forums for too long in order to see all sorts of bullshit in all sizes and shapes, but your "discussion" here over this title being "a subtle yet sexist one" truly gets the prize for being the biggest pile of shit I have ever read. Your type of "feminism" is not helping anybody for it is appealing to only what you seem to think is right. It is, quite frankly, plain bitching.
"I can believe that estimate but disagree that it's of any revelance [..] releasing games that are less male-orientated can only be a good thing for both sales and our society" what the fuck am I even reading here? You're applying borders to what is for men and what isn't? Who the fuck do you think you are?
The makers can choose their characters in whatever the hell they want for their story. You can't criticize the elements of their work based solely on some ridiculous paranoia where everything is trying to contextualize men as a dominant form. I know feminists myself and I respect them and downright support their views on mutual respect between sexes, on bivalent salary revenue for men and women and on the elimination of stereotypical dressing etiquette. They honestly have greater things in mind than someone who nitpicks on utterly irrelevant issues such as the unintentional chronological placement of characters in a story. According to you everything is either biased towards "pro-male" or "pro-female", which is plain fucking stupid on itself. You're not being a feminist, you're just a nut.
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By 'male-oriented' I mean the characters and content of the game, not who it's 'for'. Anyone's got the potential to play and enjoy any game regardless of their gender.
So you know some women who put their energy into more important issues (yep, I agree they are more important), who might not think this matters in the slightest, and that means a view held by other people (including at least one woman) is completely invalid? Well that's the stupidist reasoning I've read today - have a prize. I'd also add that treating the world population of feminists (or any group for that matter) as one mono-thinking mass is insulting them all.
First post edited to include my thoughts on how I began this thread.
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Oh, so you're just whining because you want a game with a bunch of dykes in it? That's refreshing.
"treating the world population of feminists (or any group for that matter) as one mono-thinking mass is insulting them all."
Nice backwards logic there! And I didn't actually call you a feminist, I respect feminists! But you're more like a nut with a bad case of paranoia and self-righteousness. True and respectable feminists seek equality and respect among sexes in human society, and not some blind and retarded female omniscience you seem to want. You're the only insult to feminism here.
"Just because there's more important things out there, it means a view held by other people (including at least one woman) is completely invalid? Well that's the stupidist reasoning I've read today"
BZZT, wrong again. I don't think you've come to notice that everyone here is pointing out in detail and with care that not only your view is one of a insane person, it is also plain fucking stupid. The fact that there are more important things out there to worry about only adds up to the lack of necessity for such blabber.
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I want a game with dykes in? What? I have no idea why you think that's what I said.
This is the woman I refer to, as linked earlier. As I added to my initial post, yes just shouting 'sexist game!' was a bad way to start a thread and I realise that it overclouded my actual point... but I've tried to explain how I see things and you throw personal insults at me. I find you arrogant and unpleasant and won't be replying to you again.
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I disagree with you putting your view out like if it were an actual fact and a reflection of truth. Try not sounding like a total self-righteous jackass next time and people like me might take your views more seriously. Until then, you don't really deserve respect.
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What the fuck did i just read.
Very funny site though.
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I'm sorry, what? The game is sexist because the female doesn't fight or because the protagonist is a male?
So Sleeping Beauty is a sexist fairy tale because she's rescued by a prince? Little Red Riding Hood is sexist because the lumberjack has to cut the wolf to save the Red and the granny? That's just stupid.
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I laughed at how you're 'whining' that I'm 'whining'
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I sometimes wish most of the things I read on these forums were plain trolling. Sadly they're not.
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It's a shame that I began the thread like that as I think you're right that a lot of people would look at it and dismiss me a troll. That wasn't my intention and I openly admit I could have put my point of view across in a better way.
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Bastion is one of the best games I've ever played. Between my favorite games, had an amazing experience with it!
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Amazing Game. I really enjoyed the Narrator. So many times things just went perfectly and made me quit laughing. "The kid just rages for a bit..." followed quickly by "And he falls to his death". Something like that anyways. Pretty funny stuff.
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this game made me cry,feel deep emotions and it was just epic
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Well if you buy bastion in a sale you spend like 5$ or something.
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i got this key for bastion...
try it and you could be lucky :)
3BMT7-... gone
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I underestimated the ending. I thought it was a cliché one, typical video-game ending. It is not.
I'm not going to spoil it for anyone, but please buy it on HIB V and play it, you won't regreat.
I'd appreciated if no one spoiled as well. It's too much of an experience to be ruined.
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