I don't think it is. Nothing can be done about it unfortunately.
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I think the key should be for whomever it was intended. If a person initially purchased the game for themselves, then they used use the key. Morally, I think it comes down to intent. Did you purchase a game with split keys so you could have one and give the other away? Is it any different than posting a DRM-free version for all to use?
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do you think that people who do not have the game will buy it? I think that some people can not afford to play. And piracy is bullshit (you can see france for example). The problem is that it will give people the first two keys, and then pointed out to them that instead activate the second time this game, give the key to someone else ...
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The Steam key can be used to activate a copy of the full game on Steam for your own personal use. It is prohibited to sell, trade or give away the key to others. This key is only for your own personal use. Please respect this. We need the income of the game to fund future projects.
let me repeat:
This key is only for your own personal use. Please respect this. We need the income of the game to fund future projects.
you should read this:
http://www.greenheartgames.com/2013/04/29/what-happens-when-pirates-play-a-game-development-simulator-and-then-go-bankrupt-because-of-piracy/
and i hope steamgifts ban every GA of this game...
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No, just no.
Let's all recall that the Humble Bundle says the exact same thing (Keys are for personal use), yet this site permits you to gift Humble Bundles.
Additionally some bundles give you keys for both Steam & Desura, yet no one ever "complains" about that - the extra key potentially is given away and no one bats an eye.
Suddenly gifting is a problem?
Let's get the ban hammer out! All of the giveaways from bundles, banned! All of the Humble Bundles, banned! /sarcasm
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The humble bundle isn't the same situation. Anyone can buy a humble bundle for 1 cent and get drm free copies, so giving away steam keys doesn't affect the developers because if people actually wanted to buy the game they could get it and other games for either 1 cent or $1 if they want steam. This game costs a lot more than $1 and is brand new so they are still trying to pay off development costs so having a lot of potential customers get a free key could actually hurt them.
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I'm sorry you missed my point. Divus101 said:
"let me repeat: This key is only for your own personal use. Please respect this. We need the income of the game to fund future projects."
Humble Bundle says the same thing. "These keys are for your own personal use."
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Situation is different. When buying on Humble Bundle, you have to accept the regulations.
From what i see here Game Dev Tycoon developers just ask you for not trading/gifting/whathever this key. You have bought it without accepting such a thing, so if you don't accept it then you should have do what you want with your key.
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you cant compare this with a bundle,
if i buy a bundle i buy every game in that for one use,
its ok to not play one game from the bundle for myself and gift it instead.
but its not okey to use the desura key to play it and gift the steam key.
if i have bought this game i have a drm free copy until the steam key is out,
if i get my steam key and want to gift it i had to delete my drm free copy AND NEVER redownload it,
anything else is just false...
hope you understand my point even with my bad englisch ^^
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I'm not comparing to the bundle. I'm highlighting that they offer the same terminology, "For personal use only" - Yet SteamGifts does not enforce this rule.
It's not SG's place to enforce this rule. It's Humble Bundle/Developer to come after you for giving away a key that was for your personal use.
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No, you don't "copy the game". As long as you don't play it again you gave it away. Like, you can buy a game in normal box which is drm-free, play it and beat it and then resell it or give it away. That's how giving away key works and your logic doesn't work in here. You are like : "you bought this game so only you can play it" well guess what - no. Not every game is Steam one and people do exchange games or resell it, just because you can't do it on Steam doesn't mean people don't do it with other games. Key to game is yours and you can do whatever you like to with it, also you can't ban all the keys giveaways because how could you tell if they bought key only? Gifts only is stupid rule also, many people buy keys from different sites where prices can be much lower than on Steam.
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No its the users responsibility to follow the rules, a lack of enforcement is not license to do as you please, and don't put this on humble bundle, the enforcement would take way too many resources for a charity/non-profit. It should be the job of sg to enforce it since allowing it makes them complicit in breaking those rules.
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"All of the giveaways from bundles, banned!"
They were. Then idiots with this attitude spammed our site with every bundle and the moderators were spending all their time cleaning up that shit nothing else ever got done.
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It'll probably fall under the same rules that the HIB games do: if someone specifically SAYS it's a personal key, then support will remove the GA and/or suspend the person, but if they don't say it, then support can't do much. That's just what I expect to happen, anyway.
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I'd still do it out of disrespect. Not only am I a shitty person, but I all around edgy with the whole "We can only make money by selling the game" topic. At the same time, I am horribly unreasonable as to what should be considered dlc that can be sold and dlc that should be free/part of the original game. Regardless, it is the game devs fault in the end not preparing for the obvious, we all know that a large number of people are going to do it. :p
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'It's the devs fault in the end because they didn't prevent it' is the single worst argument I think I've ever heard. You know what happens when devs DO try and prevent things like this? We get SimCity level DRM that completely ruins a game for legit players. People that think the way you do are the reason DRM needs to exist.
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No, the people that think the way I do are the reason new ways and alternatives are found. I never said DRM is the only solution, but I did say it is their fault for not preparing for the obvious. If they were to use their imagination, they would do whatever it takes to make money in alternative methods. Some use merchandise as a way to make money. The fans buy clothes, toys, dishes, dildos, etc. and they're happy for having merchandise and the game creators are happy they still have an income. Some create TV shows because they know it will be a way to draw in more people as well the potential payout is quite desirable. Some do ingame advertisement... which I am personally fine with as long it is within relevance and taste as well not over done to the point the game is an eye sore. Some games uses an in game economy system for where players can spend real life money for in game currency in order to make it easier, which is great for the casual and busy player group that want to enjoy the game without the investment in time as well for the hardcore gamers who will still have the advantage despite not spending money since they'll be the ones that understands how to better use in game currency (thus not pay to win).
There is so many ways to make money in the world, and people like YOU are the reason nobody is getting off their ass and finding a way to do it. The "don't share your games you paid for, it isn't right to share" doesn't cut it for me since I been bloody raised to share my toys.
edit: Besides, there is a rule to follow in the media business... Expect a good percentage of your fan base to not spend a dime on you. This is something most people are forgetting about. They think DRM and feeding guilt to their fanbase will make their lives easier, but it is a half ass solution that doesn't make the consumer happy and doesn't honestly help their business much either.
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I don't, and I honestly never will understand how "soft piracy" is so "wrong." I however have no desire to learn about other people's opinions since I wont magically change. I still see it all as lazy business to make more money and make everyone else feel guilty for it. It isn't like I'm sitting in a starbucks and leaking cracks to the world, I am sharing what I paid for... limited sharing I might add. Not like I am sharing my Steam account with a group of friends, which a lot of people do, but I would be sharing a key I paid for but not planning to use. I am giving away something I paid for that I'm not going to use. The whole "soft piracy" is ridiculous. :p
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So what you're saying is there is absolutely no consequence in the situation and in the end, the devs do not lose any money. Sorry, but that isn't what this argument is about. We still have the drm copy to play, which is what this whole ridiculous debate is about about. They claim we should feel sorry for the devs and not share the keys we wont use and I say if soft piracy was a concern of theirs, they probably should not have given out drm free copies and a steam key for the sake of not giving their fans the temptation to let their friends play a super cool game we are not allowed to share. Think of it like you get a package of juice. You have six things of juices, but you're suppose to only drink them for yourself since you paid for only one and not six. That is ridiculous, of course we will share our juices with our friends. In this case, we paid for one game but get two. Of course some of us are going to share one of the game copies!
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It's kinda like that, but at the same time it's different. At one point, the packs of juice/soda/beer will run out and you'll have to buy it again. The DRM-free copies and the steam copy will be there forever unless you manage to screw something up big time. It's like winning a lifetime supply of some drink and instead of just using it for yourself, you share it with a friend who doesn't have to buy this drink for the rest of their life too now. You might think you're being nice but you're hurting the company, even if the amount will be minuscule in the bigger picture.
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I will go ahead and expand on my analogy. Lets say you were given two flavors of a lifetime supply of soda. You get Rootbeer deluxe and Lemon Lime Clusterfuck Supreme. You fucking hate Clusterfuck supreme because it taste waaay to sour. However, when you purchased the lifetime supply, you were mailed Clustercuk Supreme anyways. You began to realize that you are given it even though you do not plan to use it, but why on Earth let it go to waste when you have a friend that loves Clusterfuck Supreme, or Hell, maybe he never tried it before and you figured since he wasn't going to buy it anyways it was worth letting him have it all since you think he would.
You can keep saying it hurts the devs, but it was their fucking fault they gave us the opportunity. Again, if soft piracy was a concern for them, they wouldn't have given away DRM FREE copies. The sad truth is, just about half of the people on SteamGifts message board cares more than the devs do because of morals. I'm sorry, but despite knowing that we cannot change each others sides no matter how we both explain it, I will still point out my side by simply putting it as this: The devs and their money making business isn't my concern. I plan to be a game dev because I think it will be just wonderful to be one, but I do not expect anyone to NOT take advantage of me. That would be ridiculous to not fully take advantage of what they PAID for. I don't know if we all have this type of opinion on the matter with different morals. Maybe we come from different backgrounds completely, but I been raised to stretch your dollars every way possible. Stealing is one thing, but when someone gives you two game copies but expects you to use only one if you do not wish to use it on Steam, I just nod my head and do it anyways. I expect my friends to do the same for me if they were in the same position because they are, for the most part, just like me and is tired of every game dev out there thinking that they can just sell their obscure game for a price and expect us to not enjoy it just because of some cultural currency system. I see it as this, when they release a sequel and your friend decides they are a fan, they can prioritize purchasing it. Hell, they might buy themself all the dlc. Regardless, you contributed to their little business. In a way, you're putting the responsibility in someone elses hand to decide if it is also deserves their money. You're making it someone elses choice and responsibility in a way, despite them trying to legally make it yours. You can disagree with this, but this is how I'll always justify it and will expect everyone to do it to me ten-fold. In fact, if I ever have the audacity to release a drm free copy of my game, I will expect people to share it to mutliple friends and even shove it on piratebay. Way I see it, it will show the people out there with money that I am a candidate for deserving their future business.
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But once again, your analogy is flawed. They're giving the same product but packaged as a steam game. You used two completely different flavors as if they gave you a DRM-free version of Game Dev Tycoon and then gave you a steam key for a completely different game on the other end of the spectrum.
I'd also like to point out that the saying "it was their fucking fault they gave us the opportunity" is a horrible justification for ones acts. Just because a government allows you to buy weapons doesn't mean that killing someone is the government's fault. Of course, my example is a little extreme but like I said, it's just a justification for people to do things that they know they should not do.
I'm not saying your opinion is wrong, in any way at this point since I doubt the majority of users on this site would care(since they'll be receiving a free game if you do indeed choose to give it away). Infact, if you're planning on being a game dev yourself and see this as a benefit that people will share your DRM-free games then more power to you. I guess what I'm trying to say here is that you could choose better ways to pass on your points. I agree with at least one of your points; that we probably won't be able to change each other's opinion on this matter but I've been known to change my mind frequently...lolz
Truce?
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Nah, this got interesting. As long we don't start flaming one another, I don't see the point in just stopping unless you really want to.
I don't see how it is relevant they are giving to the user the same product as a steam game. There is still TWO usable copies. It would be like you paid for one CD but it for some reason was packaged with two copies. Of course you will be tempted to give away the second copy and of course it is the record companies fault for giving the temptation. When you give the second CD to your friend, it is their responsibility to decide if they will pay for a copy like YOU ALREADY DID. The only difference here is it is virtual, which is arguable this whole topic is even more stupid since in the end it is all just data, data you already paid for. In a way, it would be your friend that is the bad guy, but even they wouldn't be. This is not like we are having an orgy on Piratebay, but sharing what was paid for. It would be like sharing a Motel Room designed for one, or something.
Now for you government and the guns thing, that was unrelated. It would be more like the government allowing people to buy weapons but not allowing people to shoot them with friends because it is a safety hazard. The government, allowing us to buy guns, gave us the temptation to have fun with our friends. That is the governments fault and not really our responsibility. An even better example would be to sell sports cards to people that go upto 200 miles an hours, despite the highest speed limit in the USA country being 85. Is the driver REALLY responsible for driving around the speed limit? Of course, but you know... OF COURSE we are gonna surpass it the first chance we get. The car manufacturer is aware of that, but if they were not, it is their fault for being incompetent.
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Right...so no flaming but yes to bashing each other's analogies? Kay...
The motel analogy is wrong IMO. Despite sharing, they would still be receiving monthly(or is it weekly?) revenue from you, the user. It would be akin to paying for a WoW subscription and sharing an account with a friend just to experience the benefits of the game world which I believe is against their ToS or whatever(I've never played WoW before...). But putting that aside, most motels do allow up to 2 people in a one bed room meaning you and one guest. So once again, your analogy doesn't work since motels do allow you to share with up to another person but GDT had stated before giving you the key that you weren't to give it away, sell, or trade it and that it was for you personally.
And towards your car analogy, once again you prove my point. All you are doing to passing off the blame for doing something you know is wrong/illegal, yet you justify it with "Well, the bigger man up there gave us the ability to do so. Obviously he wouldn't have allowed us the option to do it if they didn't want us to do it." and that just reinforces the example I presented with the guns. Obviously the car manufacturers shouldn't put those engines into the car, but at the same time it isn't justification to go tearing down a residential area or a highway at 200MPH just because you can. I have another example that I typed up but deleted since I felt that it was NSFW and might get me suspended for posting it...:/
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yah, unless one of us takes it personal our analogies get bashed, I see no harm.
Most motels would be daily, so not sure where you were going with that. All the same, your WoW subscription is a much better example. The devs are getting half the money they otherwise would get, just like when you share the Steam key with a friend that didn't pay for it. It might be against their ToS, but is it morally wrong? You paid for that subscription.
Your gun manufacture point wasn't really relevant. If it was, the discussion would be more aimed towards "If the game devs didn't want me to upload their DRM free game to Piratebay, they shouldn't have given me their game." This topic, however, is completely different. The game devs are not losing their shirt from you sharing your game with your friend, much like how nobody is losing their lives for sharing your gun to someone when it is suppose to be only registered for your own use. This whole topic is just like the Xbox One and how they want to discourage sharing games by forcing people to buy a copy, except with a virtual data thing instead of something physical. The only argument is that you and your friend can both play the game the same time. So a better comparison would be classic PC gaming, which the majority of gamers simply did, share their disks. The devs didn't like that, so they did something about it.
Today, there is absolutely no excuse. DRM is up the ass and it isn't needed to give someone a drm free copy of the game if they want only one person to have access to the game. Since they DID have a drm free copy in existence, it showed that they made the choice to NOT WORRY about people sharing the game. I don't know about you, but when I'm a game dev that does not want people to share my game, I would make sure there is DRM. Everyone that had a DRM Free copy already had a copy of the game, they didn't need a copy with DRM on top of it. You could argue that people, like myself, prefer Steam over DRM free because of convenience Steam services provides, but the problem still exists... Why didn't they just give us the Steam key instead at first? Oh, right... They were too impatient and rather release a DRM free copy. I think they knew exactly what was going to happen and didn't expect the majority to listen. For those who do not desire the convenience and services Steam supplies, they will give away their key. The majority will likely keep the key just for the luxury, unless the game was complete crap.. but that is a completely different argument.
So there. It might seem unfair to say they shouldn't have ever released a drm free copy since it is hard to get the word out otherwise, such as Kerbal Space Program, but that was a sacrifice they chosen for themselves. You keep saying that I am passing on the blame to someone else, but I never denied that. I am not ashamed for doing so. Am I suppose to waste a Steam key now, even though it was paid for? Nonsense, I've been raised to never waste anything, so I try not to. To REALLY get down to what this argument is, it is no longer an argument about facts. It is all about morals, which is different for everyone. Hell, some think killing is completely fine and not immoral. Contrary to belief, morals are culturally invented and do not really exist beyond that. With that said, humans killed for even selfish reasons for a long time before civilization really existed. With that said, some culture today encourage killing. If killing can be moral to some people, why can't sharing a damn game you paid for be moral too? See, exactly. I think we both agree killing isn't moral, but killing just isn't moral for us. Someone else might be different. So, go ahead and think the way the game business wants you to since they're too unimaginative to think of alternatives to making money other than selling game copies... which is unfortunate since I feel game dev tycoon would be very fucking easy to make merchandise for.
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Regarding if sharing an account is morally wrong or not. I wouldn't say it was morally wrong, but I would shy away from it if possible. To me, the fact that a separate entity has control over my account, even if it was a friend of best friend, makes me paranoid to the extremes. I would always be tiptoeing around my friend in fear that he/she might sabotage my account in retaliation if I pissed them off. I think account sharing is more an issue of trust than morals since they could easily just come over to your house to play the game instead without knowing your account info.
Okay, I agree my gun analogy wasn't really relevant to the topic at hand. It was more focused upon your statement that "it was their fucking fault they gave us the opportunity" which devolved to all the aforementioned analogies.
Also, I agree with your statement that they shouldn't have released a DRM-free copy if they were to make the requirement that the steam key to be given later had to be activated on your personal account. But the problem with that is we don't know if they were forced into the corner, or if they willing did it. For all we know, they were on the brink of bankruptcy and had to get people to buy their game but at the same time, not many people pre-order indie games without trying them out. Of course, that may not be the case and the studio may just be another money-grubbing game dev company. Also, whenever I said "you" in my analogies or rebukes, I wasn't trying to mean you literally but more as the general population "you".
Lastly, although morals might be "cultrally invented", most are common sense to be fair. I agree that morals differ from country to country, religion to religion and that blindly killing isn't moral to us at the very least.
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I am confident that they were close to bankruptcy, but that is what it is like when starting a business. That isn't an excuse. They were NEVER cornered and could take advantage of the internet, such as kickstarters as a simple example. I still find it odd you think that sharing your steam key is wrong because it is against their rules, but sharing a steam account is several times worse and is breaking the rules as well... What is the difference?
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You paid for the drm free and steam copy. You still only have a drm free and steam copy. You give away your steam copy. you now only have your drm copy. I don't understand... If the devs don't want people to do this, perhaps they should not give out drm free copies? If game devs don't want people to "pirate" their games, giving away drm free copies seems counter productive. I'm terribly sorry, but no matter what anyone else says, I don't think piracy is their concern.
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Then don't promise Steam key for DRM-free buyer? Or give a heavily discounted price for the original owner. Or free DLC for them so they're forced to purchase the game again (thus generating revenue). Or free Game Dev Tycoon 2 DRM-free for DRM-free purchasers.
So many alternatives and I'm sure my suggestions aren't covering all.
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To be totally honest, that line is mostly there for legal protection. In practice, that line is only there so people don't buy five hundred copies while they're on sale and then resell them for a profit without authorization.
Personally, I think it's fine morally as long as you don't buy a game that comes with desura and Steam keys and activate one for yourself while giving the other away.
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Well there is one slight positive...those users may have just given the devs of the game an idea of how to punish pirates in Game Dev Tycoon 2.
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And an evolution of what they already did with this game where the devs leaked it to various torrent sites with DRM which bugged the game into having the player's game company go bankrupt due to piracy at a certain point.
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I think this is more of an honor system here. People buying from their site gets a DRM free version and a Steam Key which basically means they get 2 copies. They hope that you activate it for yourself and don't share the DRM-free version but I don't think they can actually stop you...
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I see it much the same way I saw it when I bought it. An indie developer, who really kinda needs every bit that they make off their games. As such, my Steam copy will be activated on my Steam account. THOUGH I do plan to gift a couple of copies later. I think the game was more than worth the price of admission. I just need to gather a bit of extra money to gift some copies. Cheers
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There used to be a link here. Removed to limit the number of entries only to the first few.
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The Humble Bundle says the same thing. People give their keys away all the time. That doesn't mean it is right, but it is a fact of life that there will always be some bumbling idiot that goes:
"Naw I ain't herd of no fine print for dis game. I dun get why I was a-banned from ya site."
Of course, you could make the argument that this is beneficial to the game developers and the industry, but judging by your avatar, I doubt you'd say anything nice about capitalism.
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Still technically piracy.
In other words, if the Humble Bundle decides to crack down of key giveaways, you better have a lawyer.
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last i heard the humble bundle terms of service havent been tested in a court of law and till they are theyre more of a suggestion, if humble didnt want us to split bundles theyd provide single keys for the whole bundle its easier and more importantly cheaper than lawyering up for a case thats its iffy theyd win, its akin to coca cola suing a shop that sells multipack cans of coke singly, yeah its possible coca cola could win but why not try selling more coke and not giving lawyers more money than absolutely neccessary
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I predict this thread will turn into bobo's PSA...
I'll try and avoid a suspension this time.
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I am sorry..
But I have been given the ability to severely punish you for your actions.
A local agent near you will be heading to your house soon... to get you. He will tie you to a chair and force you to watch My Little Pony for a few hours and then drink one of your beers and leave.
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Does he watch it with you? I just can't imagine watching that show with another person in the room.
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Maybe a 'boxed copy' of the game you can wear on your head. >.>
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The idea of seeding their own game onto torrent sites to knowingly gain more exposure (hiding it behind a smokescreen of an easily crackable moral message), while virtually coasting on someone else's work? Yeah. My brain was full of fuck, too. Had the original been better known, this would have been a case of a (mockbuster)[http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mockbuster] overtaking the original.
I wonder if there is much calling for titles like Bejemmed, The Sins, Tomb Radar, Left 4 Dread, Resident iVILE and Raymeng? I would have added something like "Duty Call" but that sounds like a military comedy-dating sim.
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Rather than playing from the standpoint of a psychic commander, forcing them to do your bidding, you have to manipulate them through various 'signal' events like a jealous/vengeful/judgemental god would. He didn't eat a vegetable curry like you told him to, and instead ate an omelette? Strike him down with athletes foot!
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"piracy is one of the best methods to see if the game is well anticipated and it is number 1 method to see the success and it is probably the cheesiest word of mouth you can get"
I completely agree. (EDIT: For the Record, I pirate games as a demo. FUCK 10 minute demos.) And yeah, companies do it all the time (leaking their games). The reason I say fuck em is because this:
"The idea of seeding their own game onto torrent sites to knowingly gain more exposure (hiding it behind a smokescreen of an easily crackable moral message), while virtually coasting on someone else's work?"
I completely agree with Uroboros. The moral message completely falls apart when you (and everybody else) give people the torrented copy yourselves. Not to mention that, yeah, this genre has been done to death. People probably pirated the crap out of this because they wanted to know if it was even remotely worth buying.
Bottom line, if someone wants to give their copy away? Fuck these guys. That's twice in a row (for the SAME GAME) that they us the loaded gun and urged us not to shoot them in the face with it. It's like they don't understand psychology.
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Actually it's not that the genre has been done to death. Go look up "Game Dev Story". GDTycoon is a literal mockbuster of GDStory, right down to clinging closely to the design and aesthetics, and like all mockbusters : dumbing it down. Seriously, look up Game Dev Story and compare it to this.
They don't even credit their obvious source anywhere in the game, last I checked. All the while readily giving little nods to more successful games like Super Meatboy or Cavestory. Then check out : http://gamedevtycoon.wikia.com/wiki/Achievements . One of the secret achievements is for naming your company after an already-existing company. Check out how extensive the list is. Then note that Kairosoft (the guys that made what they're mockbusting) isn't on there.
For all the sanctimony about piracy while cashing in on the free popularity, I would have been all about this game. I'm dumb enough to love weaving my own head-canon for how things are going down (even if the game is so basic that it could easily be a facebook game), but the fact they're riding Kairosoft like that while pretending to be on a moral high-horse is what really gets me.
edit : Oh, wait, they acknowledged GDStory and Kairosoft... on their wiki front page, in passing. Right before they went on to say "we wished the game would work and look differently" (laffo), and also that when making Greenheart games, they wanted to make games that were "fun to play instead of mind numbing money grabbers. Less social, less ville, more game is our motto". If you play the game you'll work out most of the underpinning formula for instant success pretty quickly, and... okay I'm just ranting here. But you can see how two-faced this entire thing is, right?
So like I said, in the case of these split keys? I feel no real sympathy.
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wow, who would've guessed that 10 years ago i was happily playing games, both legit and pirated, not caring about anything, yet now i'm here discussing the "morals and ethics of redeeming or giving away a steam code that might or might not harm the developer who honestly just wants ANOTHER person to purchase his game"
they got massive exposure by pulling the pirate thing, now they want more money?
it's not gonna top CoD people, forget about it.
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I don't get it. You bought the key. You don't need the key. You give it to somebody else. But the key was already paid for. What the flip is the problem? You think the anti-pirates care that people themselves aren't going and buying games? They just care about not receiving profit.
Any keys that go through Steamgifts are (usually) legitimate, purchased keys. Unless you're the kind of goon who works at Microsoft and believes that everyone should live in a "perfect", completely-online, capitalist/advertiser-driven society, I have no idea where you're see the problem here.
If you're reselling the key, that's wrong, and you should be punished in some manner. But giving the key away for CV (pretty much just a meter to say "You're THIS special!") or just giving it away shouldn't be a problem, because there's no financial gain.
As for trading, I again don't see the problem so long as it's not for money (aka selling). Digital "products" themselves only have worth so much as somebody online has an interest in the product on offer. They themselves do not represent a fiscal value and, at least in Steam and EVE Online, cannot be redeemed for real world money. Therefore, there's no actual profit being moved in the process of trading, and since the only way to gain access to a game is to actually activate a key, nobody is playing a copy of the game which hasn't been paid for.
Developers like to think that everybody is willing to go out and buy their game with intent. I bet you, many, MANY gamers didn't just buy random games or listen to advertising and buy games based on those and find out they were good; they either borrowed them, got a free key and tried them out or in some cases may have pirated and then paid for a legitimate version afterwards if they liked it.
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I think that somehow people are being given two keys.
Perhaps those who purchased the game prior to being greenlighted on steam where given a second key for steam usage. In which case it comes down to "Do I own one effective license or two?". The company specified not only that "this is for personal use only", but further to state that it is literally not to be given away, so not even in a "personal use only, no reselling" commercial sense. That's often the problem with keys marked only with "for personal use only", there is no agreement being signed, and it is often meant in a commercial resale sense. Here the company is pretty clear on the intents of the key, so sharing it falls squarely under piracy I think?
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You got a DRM-free copy and a Steam key. Some worthless scum think they have the right to give away the Steam key while keeping the DRM-free themselves. Unfortunately they fail to realise what they're paying for is a single license which can be used as the DRM-free copy and registering their Steam key to their Steam account.
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They want to give away someone a game, what scum . . .
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Hey, what they do might be politically wrong, but calling a person a worthless scum when they just have a perfectly good intentions (at least some of them) is douchery.
And the chances that someone who wins the game would've bought it otherwise is pretty freaking small.
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Having perfectly good intentions doesn't make up for the fact that what they're doing is wrong. You purchase a single license which belongs as a set(Steam & DRM-free) - one copy.
If the person who wins the game wouldn't have bought it otherwise, then that's no problem;if they wouldn't have bought it otherwise then perhaps it's best they don't get it at all. People use the same excuse to justify piracy, but it is quite ridiculous in my opinion.
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Yeah, it doesn't make up for it, but it doesn't either make a person "worthless scumbag", being politically wrong doesn't make a person worthless scumbag as long as this "politically wrong" great harm to someone else.
How the hell can you even compare it? how many people who enter a giveaway for a certain game would've bought the game otherwise? how many people who pirate a game would've bought it otherwise? how the hell can you even those 2 things. It's also unlimited vs limited copy distribution. And a person who would even thing of buying it would usually buy it and not try to waste time for 0.1% chance getting it for free. So because there's a chance of 1% of someone who would've bought the game could win it warrens calling them worthless scumbag? Also remember that making giveaway for a game can have also benefits, like more exposure and such.
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The issue is that no agreement is being signed. If people had to click through an terms-of-license saying "I agree that I this key is provided as an extension of my single license and sharing, trading or selling it is a breach of my license" etc etc, then it would be piracy without question. By the sounds of it, no such agreement was placed nor required to be accepted to receive the second key.
If only they came up with a transitioning system that basically fed their old key back to the developers in exchange for a new cross-key for both the DRM-free and Steam versions (under one key), then the creators only need to change the key recognition in their next patch (so old keys no longer work, and need to be converted) and they wouldn't have this issue.
Still, I find it hard to feel bad for people profiting off a mockbuster. If you don't even credit the people you're surfing on top of for your own profit (while including little nods to other games), then really, I'd just consider it karma. :V
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I do not see it as that big of a problem. It was the devs choice to do what they did. Not up to them what the people who bought copies ahead of time do with their extra.
Yes it does suck for the devs. However at the same time, it was their choice to give steam keys to those who bought it before. They knew there was a good chance at least a portion of those people would give those keys or sell them to others instead of using it for themselves. I believe people should be able to do what they want with what they have, I also believe in the freedom of free speech. Of course, when exorcizing those things one must take into account the consequences of said actions.
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Seeing people trying to legitimate piracy, anti-industry practices and selfishness is becoming less fun and more worrying. These are the same people who will try and screw you over in real life as they see a slim chance. "Screw society, I need to get what I want first!"
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The way people talk about this subject, you'd think it was worse then murdering children. Let's put this into some perspective that you guy's might understand.
When you buy a game, you are given permission to play it however you like. Hell a lot of companies are now focusing on getting their game on every system, phone, or handheld gaming device simply so you can play it whenever. Bear with me, I'll get to the point soon.
When a company puts their games up on something like the Humble Bundle. They don't do it expecting everyone to donate $100. They do so knowing that some people will donate big, and some will donate the minimum. Take for example the recent EA bundle that went off. You paid your money and they gave you two sets of keys. People were on these forums all high and mighty saying you're a terrible person if you put the Steam keys up here.
Let's just put this up for you to understand. All of the games in the EA bundle are on Origins, EA didn't have to give two sets of keys. The fact that they did was their own fault.
Now before you get all white knight at me saying we have a morale obligation. No, just stop. They willingly gave us two sets of keys for absolutely no reason. And before you bring up that not everyone uses Origins, Dead Space 3 isn't on Steam so you would need Origins anyway to play it.
If you buy a game from a company and they give you two sets of keys, that is their choice. If you want to be kind and give someone your extra key, that doesn't make you an evil person. And for those people in this thread getting all upset over this. Is it really that heart breaking to you? Like do you look at this and just get so upset?
Let's put this in context outside of the gaming world. You and a friend go up to a hotdog stand. You buy a hotdog, and for no reason what so ever, the guy gives you two and tells you to have a nice day. What are you going to do? A rational person would give their friend the hot dog. From what you lot are saying, you'd eat both hot dogs and make sure your friend buys his own.
Man, the internet is becoming so white knighty and whiny recently.
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I'm not here to argue against your other points since I have given away games from Humble Bundle and such(mainly because I already owned the game on steam). I'm merely here to point out that your analogy is flawed. It's just 1 hotdog that the friend was given and if he/she wanted to eat another one, he'd have to buy a second hotdog. This Steam key will literally be there forever until the end of time unless the winner does something stupid to have his Steam account banned or something.
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... you're an idiot who completely missed the fucking point of that thread. I'd explain it to you, but almost everyone seemed to mentally censor it out, so I'd just be wasting keystrokes at this point.
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It's a matter of licensing and agreements, which can solve any doubt by adding a click-through agreement with clear wording, so that you can either abstain or agree that any keys provided (even multiple) are for a single license, and sharing them is piracy. Until that is defined and agreed to, there is doubt. However in the case of Game Dev Tycoon, judging from someone else's post, they explicitly mentioned that the additional key is not for reselling or trading. "Trading" is a specific word that is not really used to simply denote "no commercial wrangling, this is for use in the scale of a customer, not a business", but more "this your linked key".
I hope they quickly work to unify the entire key generation process, and that bundle-organisers are mindful of the sharing potential if they explicitly view it as a single license. It will kill all this debate and leave us all mindful and without excuse. I don't see this as the end of the world (and also 'not as' morally shitty given Greenheart's own approach to virtual theft from other companies), but they took the time to try detail their intents for that extra key. Respecting it isn't too much to ask, especially when the alternate was to simply say : "Well we don't want to risk our profits, so if you want a steam version you'll have to re-purchase it". Some companies do that. They didn't, despite being a fledgeling group where profit margins matter more (regardless of their own ethics).
This is the other half of the slippery slope. The grand majority of DRM fuckery comes down to colossal lack of research/awareness on the part of developers, but when people are too ready to share keys like this (regardless of their interpretation of the license or key generation across opposed distribution platforms) then you are part of what is simply helping to completing that dire circuit. I hear you on the white-knighting part but there has to be a line somewhere.
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Giving away this key will be considered piracy. If we catch you doing this, your giveaway will be deleted, just like it was for all those Legend of Grimrock giveaways back in the day. Unlike that Humble Origin Bundle bitchfest idiots made a big deal out of, there is no bundle TOS you can use to try and worm your way out of it. Using the DRM-free copy and giving away/selling the Steam copy is piracy. No exceptions.
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Fuck-a-doodle-do. I wasn't going to bother trying. It was a bitchfest populated by idiots and that's the end of it. The vast majority of the people in that thread showed themselves to be idiots who can't read the most simple things, let alone understand them.
Not to mention all the morons gibbering about "WAHH YOU SAID YOU WOULDN'T SUSPEND PEOPLE BUT THEY ARE." Even disregarding the possiblity that they were suspended for other things (they weren't, but most of the people sobbing about it wouldn't know that), the fact that they raged at Bobo for something he didn't do and they didn't understand showed them all to be idiots who didn't know the full situation but decided to comment anyway and spewed and spawned yet more ignorance.
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When editing someone else's post, it is normal to add the editors name as not to accidentally mix up who is saying what. Given the attitudes and sentiments in that thread, the mistake of who punished who and for what seemed more like an eventuality, rather than the derpish fumbles of 'idiots'.
Surely you can understand how it didn't go down like it did due to a single-sided fault, and how editing an opening post of another support member without tagging your name in can project a certain image over them Hostile posts are only going to prolong whatever divides remain. I'm not saying it's all sunshine and roses working as a moderator, but perhaps you should rethink this approach-
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Umm... wat? I don't even have edit capabilities at this point. The only posts I edit are my own. The people were idiots who commented on what they didn't understand. None of us feel the need to explain every single suspension we have ever made, why should we? Anyone with an ounce of common sense would have understood what the suspensions were for. Anyone without it should have asked instead of spraying their ignorance everywhere like a skunk.
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"wat?"
I'm referring to that previous thread, where the opening post was edited in a manner that caused assumptions. You don't really need to understand the fine-print of who did what, to draw conclusions that seem likely. You don't have to be an 'idiot' to mistakenly assume something of someone who -appears- to be angry and ranting.
And you're right, you don't have to explain every single suspension ever made, but I recall that people picked up on the fact that someone had been suspended. My memory is fuzzy, but I believe that was because the suspension was advertised by a staff post (or in the edit). If you're going to show that information openly in a volatile, public discussion without the full info, then it's kinda like standing a bottom of nitroglycerine on top of a running washing machine. It go boom. Not that it would stop certain kinds of people from becoming belligerent, but some things just act as a catalyst, and staff members are in a unique position to defuse things before they go down, y'know? Sorry if I'm coming across as overly critical, because the last thing I want is to make you feel backed into a corner. I'm just saying that it's not as simple as a single-sided blunder, and that calling 'idiot' so sweepingly is like leaving some more nitroglycerine out again. It's sort of chill now, but a few more knocks and things'll probably get 'dumb' again.
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Trust me, I love to assume the best about people, but that thread was just so goddamn draining. I still haven't been able to read through it all. There was so much pointless hate and stupid fury that would have been solved by having a brain. No, it wasn't all of them. Yes, some of the people disagreeing were good about it and make their points calmly and rationally. But the majority of it made me want to send all those users into Mount Doom.
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Isn't this game just a shameless clone of Game Dev Story? (Accepting that many genres start out as a series of clones)
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Having played (and beaten) Game Dev Story well before I ever heard of this, I can attest to the fact that it is, indeed, a shameless clone.
On the other hand though, it does have a few nice differences, and does some things better than Game Dev Story did.
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What does it do better? I loved Game Dev Story, so if this game isn't actually just a crappy version of it, I might consider the purchase.
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Since Humblebundle also says "For personal use only" and whenever there is a new bundle this site is flooded with Giveaways, I think that nobody gives a shit.
I for one think if humblebundle is so kind as to give me cheap games I should at least follow their small rule.
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So as you may know by now if you own the Game Dev Tycoon. The steam version will officially be released on August 29th, 2013.
I'm just wondering what everyone thinks of this. But what do you think of the people that bought the game using the same key to do a giveaway.
As soon as I saw my key and what it said on the email, I immediately thought of giveaway communities like Steamgifts.
"Note: This key is for your own personal use. This key is not for re-sale or for trading. Please respect this. We need the income from this game to fund future projects."
I activated my key on Steam cause I thought it was the proper thing to do. What about you guys that bought the game long before Steam release. Do you think its alright to give away the key?
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