I agree.
I can see this working out for everyone. Valve could allow games to be moved back to inventory at a fee (say $1); then if sold on the Marketplace, they could charge the buyer a percentage (like they already do with TF2/DOTA stuff).
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Some people don't like this risk. As well, some people don't like spending time trading.
With my example, you could just put your game on the Market for whatever price you want, and if it sells the money goes right to your wallet. Valve does all the work, and no risk.
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The problem is (if it is one) that the money gotten from the sales would be linked to the steam account, thus only for steam games / programs.
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That's why it's a perfect solution for Valve. They would take a cut of the Market sale (likely 15% like they do for TF2 items), and the seller would only have Steam Wallet, which they would eventually end up giving back to Valve.
I honestly don't see why they would be against this, they would be earning money from the buyer and the seller.
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Yes, but in this case the end result might not be what the one they sued for. As a compromise between Steam's no reasale politics and the European justice's resale allowed, it would be a very interesting possibility.
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Because that still involves Valve, and it prevents the seller from using their money outside of Steam. That's why people would be against it... There's no reason for Valve to be involved in the second-hand sale.
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The best solution would be to allow activated keys to be turned back into tradeable Inventory items (likely for some kind of fee).
The user is then able to sell it for Paypal, trade it, or sell it on the Market - whatever they choose.
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I highly doubt something like this would work. Because not only Valve will not profit much, the developers and publishers are in this too, so even if they could work a deal with Valve, they have to do that with every publisher on steam too, which I doubt it would be possible...
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Any hearing will be about application of the law, regardless of whether or not it benefits Valve's bottom line.
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I don't think Valve will back down from this.
Who's to stop someone say, purchasing a game, finish it in a few days, sell it to their friend, they finish and so on.
Valve will lose so much money.
(also people looking to temporarily pad out alt accounts to make them look legit will be able to swap games back and forth
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They could reach a compromise and let you trade the game in for some credits like greenman gaming does. Or maybe let you "trade" the game to another person at a reduced price maybe? But yeah, I agree, valve will never let you give a used game to another person.
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You mean they'd actually have to put up with a competitive marketplace? Say it isn't so!
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Not really a loss. Keep in mind Valve only makes about 30% of the cost of a new game.
If they did this, they would charge 15% of the cost of the item to the buyer. As well, the seller would only get Steam Wallet, which they could only spend by giving it back to Valve.
The money will always stay with Valve, hard to lose money like this.
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That still sounds like theft on Valve's part... Actually, it IS theft. But theft has become the norm for digital distribution, hasn't it?
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Many physical retailers do this all the time by only giving you store credit/vouchers.
I have no problem with the money staying as steam wallet, I am always bound to want a new steam game eventually so the wallet can just go towards that, maybe this would be a problem if I wanted to get up and leave steam behind completely but I can't see that happening unless valve get out of hand.
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But when buy a game from GameStop, I have other options then selling it back to them. I could instead sell it on eBay (where I'd probably get more money), I could trade with a friend's game or just outright give it away to them. I have the option of turning it in for store credit, but it's not forced. In that case, I wouldn't be forced to keep it in a closed system where I'm robbed of my property rights. If they want to make that ONE OF THE OPTIONS, I'd be fine with it, but if they make it THE ONLY OPTION, then it's theft.
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not for long if next gen has there way plus try going to gamestop and get a PC game and see if anyone will trade with you once you use the cd code. if value lets you sell/trade/gift a game in any way itll be worth it.
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I dont think steam will change anything, more likely they will stop their support for germany lol....
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I think Germany has somewhat of a fair reason to be paranoid seeing the state of the world today.
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Apparently the EuGH decided that you should be able to resell your "used" licence and the vzbv just want to have it's right. And the EU is a little too big to say "fuck you!"
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Resell as in sell whole account or resell as play game, finish it and take it out of inv and sell it?
EDIT: This second one is bullshit... it would kill steam. First one does make sense since there's a lot of people who no longer use Steam and wanna get rid of it. So it does make sense.
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I don't know for sure, but only one doesn't make sense; if I put every game on a several account I could abuse one of the two. So I think both.
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That's just the thing though, isn't it? You're not purchasing the software, but a limited license to the software. A limited license that Valve can modify or revoke at any time with or without given notice. As interesting as it might be to have the ability to resell items from your library, I am pretty sure that the company already has this one well covered on the legal side.
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Notably: "The Software is licensed, not sold. Your license confers no title or ownership in the Software." Since we don't 'own' any of these games, nobody can lay any legal claims to them nor the ability to resell what isn't ours.
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That's been in physical products for over a decade though. I can pull out a manual from 1997 and show you that same wording. But if someone told me I couldn't resell that for whatever reason (hypothetically. I don't trade away games), I'd tell them to fuck right off and to try and stop me (especially since that's a contract I couldn't see before I actually bought the game). Digital distribution is different but should it be held to that same standard of the game being your property in practice, if not in words? Maybe. I'm unsure about the logistics of it more than the concept. Sure, trading used Steam games could be pretty nifty, but I have no idea if that's something that could work well without negatively impacting Steam or the consumer base. I'm waving my "Go Germany! ... possibly...!" flag right now.
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I suppose therein lies the problem. Digital and physical properties are held at different standards simply by their own nature. It is a simple task to remotely alter your access to a piece of software and claim that you were only ever issued a right, it is an entirely different matter when you have the disc in your hands and can just pass it off without interference because it is something that was a tangible transaction. Though even that is changing from what I've seen, with discs being accompanied by one-use codes that you have to purchase separately if you get the game second-hand. Perhaps the fence should swing both ways like you say, but which way should it swing? All or nothing. In the end though as was said in another thread very recently, the most of us are but basement lawyers so it is difficult to debate properly on conjecture alone. I try to keep my mind open to both sides of this, though it does seem more likely that the impact would be negative. I could be wrong though, and I have been before.
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EuGH: "A software company can not prohibit the resale of his "used" licenses." Since I "own" the licence I should be able to resell it. Or not! This is what they have to decide.
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Agreed entirely. When a consumer legally obtains a product, whether it be a disc or a license or anything else, it should be entirely their option to resell it, trade it, or give it away without any outside interference from anyone else, and the previous owner shouldn't even have to be informed of the action, let alone be involved.
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You sure about that? I end up at age gates all the time. It remembers my birthday but it always asks.
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working age verification
every 12 year old boy knows that he can only buy CoD, if he says that he is older than 18.
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What are you implying then, having to fax Valve a copy of your Driver's License or government issued ID card? You can fake your age anywhere on the internet, its not a fault of the company its just the medium. If 12 year old kids are buying age restricted games, then the parent is the one at fault. As it has always been and always will be.
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There is a chip in our ID cards. You could just use it.
Or you use Post-Ident. Then your age is verificated by a postman once.
And ofc it's okay to buy a game for your child, but in that case you know about it. Steam's system let everybody buy these titles.
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There may be a chip in yours, but there certainly isn't one in mine. Global solutions are quite difficult, so its down to more of an honor system of sorts. If we really wanted to pull a forced solution, computers might be outfitted with a mandatory card scanner that you would have to swipe whenever visiting an age restricted site or making an online purchase. Though even that system would be prey to a child sneaking their parents card. So then what, fingerprint/optical/voice verification? Some things just don't have simple solutions so we work with what we've got :p
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The ID card has a password. ;)
Also the card scanner is free and the working age verification is only forced for Germany afaik. And no 12 year old boy would do so much afford in it. They just ask their older friends.
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You don't need "global solution" because that kind of censorship fuckery only happens in Germany.
Some political parties are just a bunch of butthurt dweebs, that chose the easy way of censoring every 18+ title instead giving people of legal age the freedom to meet their own decisions.
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Not as long as there is the CDU/CSU in the government. This cry if you suddenly want to allow all these evil bloody shooters. You'll also need then still age verification for the PEGI 18 titles. Easy method: make games become art, then you can not cut most things - freedom of art.
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I was under the impression that the Market will only be for inventory items.
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DOTA2 (the whole game, not just items) is on the Market right now.
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They're inventory items though, like when you choose gift instead of adding to your inventory, right? The point is this whole ordeal is about selling copies already in your library. Unless that actually is where Dota 2 is coming from, and if that is the case then please excuse my lack of knowledge on this new feature.
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Ah sorry. I read your post as in-game items rather than inventory items :)
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It's still only for copies in your inventory. They're talking about trading/selling stuff in your library.
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Ever buy a game on Xbox Live or PSN? They are the same as Steam. It's tied to your account and cannot be resold. There isn't even an ability to buy codes to give on those services.
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That will be next step. But right now, Steam is bigger evil when it comes to game-ownership, because you own nothing - you see all those boxes with Half Life 2 and other Steamworks games? There is only one thing that is worth something in those boxes - that little set of letters and numbers.
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If Valve loses in court, then they will have a precedent to hammer the others with. If the others are smart they know this, so they will step up to defend Valve because that's the only way to prevent the precedent.
So it doesn't really matter who gets targeted first because everyone else will either step into the lawsuit, or be easier to hit afterwards.
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Did you actually read the post? Germany is trying to force Steam to allow us to resell the games in our library, not to prevent us from trading what's in our inventory.
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The very term "piracy" is a word used to give people a negative mindset before they even look at the concept.
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on the one hand, it's good because it is our right as consumers. On the other hand, I am afraid that if Valve is forced to let us resell games, prices will go up or the service will be restricted in some way (I'm thinking instead of selling games they change to temporal licenses like for example pay for being able to play a game on steam for 3 months)
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remember when digital distribution was just becoming a thing and eeverytone said this would reduce prices because they don't have to pay for physical shipping, labor, etc. that phsycial stores do? remember how that never came true and a digital opy costs exactly as much as a physical copy? on top of that, ever notice how prices for AAA lahunch titles has been slowly risihg?
what i'm saying is, if valve or other vidgame companies are gonna riaise prices then they'll always find a reaosn fro ti and idiot gamers will accept it and defend it at every turn
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Where I am, the prices for physical copies are noticeably higher than digital ones, and not including sales. Borderlands 2 was £40 on the shelf when released, but £30 through Steam. AAA prices are rising because for various reasons, though I suspect most of those are secretly "because we can".
As for suing Valve, I think it's a fair thing to do since the European court did rule that last year - I suspect that the community market is in fact Valve's response to the law. They're beta-testing it with TF2 and DotA invites; I believe Valve had a long-term plan to allow people to resell their inventory and library games to comply with the ruling. Does seem unfair to pick on Valve specifically when every retailer does it but they're the most recognisable digital games distribution service so it's likely just to make an example of them.
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That is only the case in the UK then. I'm 100% certain I have never seen a big difference between retail and steam storefront games (apart from maybe 10% off special offers in shops) in germany. If at all, retail copies are usually CHEAPER than their storefront counterpart (for example: COD titles usually cost 5€ less than in the Steam store).
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I think Europeans just get screwed over on pricing; I've spoken to a few people and the localised prices seem all over the place. Even going from $ to £ the prices aren't consistent, though they do seem more stable.
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wtf where do you live in germany? Cause everytime I go to a store I just have to laugh at the prices there and for 1 game I find that is cheaper in the store I find 20 that are way more expensive than on steam. Plus you got the crazy discounts on digital stores you probably wont find a lot in the stores.
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Correct. My local Saturn still tries to sell Torchlight 2 for 25€...
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Well, the last retail I bought was the Skyrim-preorder from the UK. (Because it was much cheaper than here) Btw. my first game on Steam. And believe me: if there would be a good deal here, I would buy.
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yeah I was talking about normal prices too,I just added that despite being cheaper there are also the sales that make them even cheaper. maybe you look for the wrong games. The only games that are similiar in price are new AAA titles. Biggest joke btw: 1 year old Section 8: Prejudice for 50€ (new on steam 15€). Indie games are way too overpriced,too. 2 weeks ago the only 2 games I found that were cheaper in retail were Drakensang and VtM:B
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No it's not always against big bad Steam.
The thing is that Steam plays the "older brother" role here, they have an estimated 70% market share and their business behavior serves other companies like EA or Ubisoft as an example and an excuse á la "hey but Valve did that, so we can do that too".
So the authority is trying to push against the one who has the biggest influece in this digital market, and that's Valve.
I'm sure they'll mess around with EA soon again, as they did when the Origin EULA was a complete mess.
Same goes for uPlay.
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Then we will see 'exclusive content' on titles for people who buy the game new. They've already done it with console games. Game publishers do not want you to resell their games.
This will lead to increased release prices, subscription based content (What's that you want access to multiplayer, sure! That'll be £5 a quarter please), unlockable content that will have to be re-purchased by future owners and many other inconveniences.
In my opinion, the PC gaming industry is moving in a positive direction. We're seeing distribution in a very simple format thanks to the digital age. This is allowing the prices for games to drop, it's not often that I see a game for sale for £50 or £60, even £40 is becoming rare.
This isn't going to be something that most indie developers care about, they already sell their products cheap and a majority of them do not care for DRM. Right now, larger studios are porting more games to PC, and a lot of the time they're putting in the extra work to make sure that the title is suitable for PC gaming. I don't want to give developers another reason to abandon the PC.
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Pretty sure that the EU law has a grace period. And by that, I mean that (I believe) Valve has 'till the end of '13 to allow us to resell our software.
So I'm not sure if this lawsuit will do anything. At best, Valve will be told to be done with it at the end of '13 (which, I think, they already know), at worst the Verbraucherschutzzentrale will screw themselves over.
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Germans are doing something good for Europe! That's unseen in a very long time. Let's hope they succeed, not only in Steam case, but all the companies forbidding users to sell products legally bought.
When you think about it, it's pretty logical: you give money to someone and you receive a product in return. From this moment you are the owner, because of that money you paid. In the physical world that's how it works and it always did. I see no clear reason why it should be different now.
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Will be very, very interesting to see how this turns out.
Shame on the handful of fanboys/fangirls attacking an organisation who are actually trying to protect the legal rights of the consumer (ie them)...
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Again, the good old German Consumer Protection Centre ("Verbraucherschutzzentrale") sues Valve. Last time they got Valve to change their update system to a system, that makes you not longer lose your access to your Steam account, if you don't agree to the ToS-changes.
This time they sue Valve because we all are not allowed to resell our games/licences. The European Court of Justice decided a while ago, that it should be possible to resell your software.
So what will happen (in about 100 years, after countless revisions/appeals)?
source, German ofc.
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