User reports never get read. Calling out isn't allowed.
Yes, exactly, this bothers me too for quite a while now. Plus everything else you said ^^
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Thank you. ;P In other words, scammers can keep scamming for months and nobody can do anything against them.
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It does bother me too but if SG did allow that, then scammers would create fake accounts to call you out.
If you can provide proof of scams to an SG admin, I'm sure they would love to ban those people. I have seen some accounts being permanently banned for scamming.
Of course the difficult part is to catch them in the act.
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I know why calling out isn't allowed, but still, user reports never get read. How to provide them proof? Will they ever read the report? It's not like it'll take time to read it. They'll just never read it. If they would scam ME, trust me, I would have proof. But as I said, nobody would read the report.
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Why has the number of pending reports stayed constant for months then, did people stop submitting them ?
Do you really think that no report is better than a report that might take months to be reviewed ?
Even if yours is missed, if mods see another report about the same user that doesn't include any evidence, they can search for other reports about the same user to see if there is one with evidence.
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As I said, it won't take months. It will take eternity. Or prove me otherwise. People keep complaining about user reports that never get read. Also, people find it more important to report people for fake giveaways or giveaways for free games (that in the end, they don't actually harm anyone) than report people that scam people (that harm people, because they steal their money). So, user reports about scammers, get in the "reports' backlog" for ever. How many people has steamgifts banned for scamming this year? :/
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If they never get read, then yeah, why would they report them to support? People know that they never get read, that's why they usually don't report them to support. Otherwise, you would have 10x amount of reports. :P But for now, reporting these scammers to the super market's cashier, will have the same result as reporting them to steamgift's support - which is NOTHING at all. I'm pretty sure you even agreed with me in the past that steamgifts needs more support members that are able to read user reports.
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Ok well don't submit any user report then, what else do you want me to say
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I will, if I get scammed. But please persuade everyone else to do so too, by proving them that the scammers will get banned before they get filthy rich. xD But by then, they will have made 10 alt accounts, so they won't even care.
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Why assume they never get read? That's the base assumption you're making and you're basing your entire logic on this.
Unfortunately it's a wrong assumption.
I'm pretty sure they are being read. The problem is it takes a long time because:
- Tons of reports come in.
- Limited amount of support staff to process them all.
The fact that the amount of open user reports isn't doubling every month is already showing that the support staff is doing the best they can. Doesn't make it less frustrating but still.
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Because everyone says so?! If the report system didn't have this bad fame, people would make reports more often. I'm not making this up. And if they get read eventually, it's already too late. The scammers will be rich by then and have 10 alt accounts. :/ I'm only asking about a solution for this problem, that's all. They don't even want to add the trade FAQ I've asked for a million times. xD
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I can understand your emotion in this case but "Because everyone says so" really doesn't seem to be a good reason to believe anything, nor does it make something true. Plenty of things have been 'said by everyone' on the internet which turned out to be false.
I get why people feel this way. and think reports aren't being read. (No fast response or actions based on reports because there's a huge backlog) but it doesn't mean it's entirely pointless or that support is not reading them. Since the amount of open user reports hasn't risen that much over time, it's clear that they are being worked on. Just the backlog isn't easily fixed by a small group of people with limited time.
The part that it's too late: that I definitely agree with. When punishment for scammers is a lot later then they already earned enough for it to be worthwhile. Which sucks.
Truthfully I personally think that Steamgifts should add more people to help handle things. Actually have tried to figure out why they're not adding more willing people to support, as I wouldn't mind helping out, but so far I don't really know or understand why.
As for that FAQ: totally on your side. That needs to be there fast :D
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"Everyone says so" isn't enough? xD Oh, I'm sorry then. Next time, I will write their usernames in my notepad and list them all here. xD Anyway, on a serious note though, I'm pretty sure you have also heard many steamgifts users complaining about their user reports never being read and even posting pictures about them. They probably don't add more support members because it's hard to trust that a random person on the internet will do a good job without being prejudiced or something. And, to be honest, the Trade FAQ is the LEAST they should do, but it's not enough. I'm pretty sure it'll help some people though.
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Lol. But realistically: when there are numbers proving that user reports are being done, then 'because everyone says so.' really means nothing. It's not a matter of names.
Example: if everyone says your chance of winning a GA increases bij 90% by jumping into a lake....you're not putting on swimwear I assume :P
For the rest I agree with you. Wish they'd add more people, hell I'd volunteer, cause I honestly think that more people is the only way for user reports to go faster so scammers are stopped fast enough. As well as getting better information out to people such as via that FAQ.
Think I'll leave it at that last part for now. That would be my core message for today. :D More people for support! Leads to faster response times and an FAQ. Leads to more people helped and less succesful scammers.
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Currently open user reports: 31093 tickets. Ok then. :P I suppose they'll be read in a few days. xD
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Well, to be honest, in the past year and some, I got zero replies on my dozen+ user reports. Either they were just closed or I cancelled them after a few months.
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That does suck indeed.
I just think that more support people are needed cause right now it's too little people for way too much work.
Which leads to these types of situations. I just don't like it when it gets made out as if support isn't doing the best they can, cause I think they are doing the best they can with the few people they have.
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Yes, I believe they do the best they can, but a few weeks ago I just stopped caring and decided to not file any more user reports. Either I bust them for rule-breaking as one of my winners or not. When a simple forced feedback ticket takes weeks, and it is supposed to be among the higher-prio ones, imagine how long would it take for these guys to get around a user report.
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If you can provide proof of scams to an SG admin
That's one of the problems, users that fall for scams usually don't keep any records of the trade, then just submit a report saying "SCAMMER" with no explanation or evidence
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Bit unrelated but I'm curious:
- Is it basically cause of lack of time that we don't have an FAQ (with even user-generated tips) for trading and such?
- What would be the reason it appears to be hard to add more support-staff? Is it cause of trust/security/something like that? Cause I would think that this could be solved to improve the reputation of support on this site.
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- Maybe, only cg could really answer that
- There is the trust thing, but it's planned to add more members, it's just that cg would like to implement a few support related things before adding new members, so it's hard to say when exactly that will happen
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The plan to add more support members has been said ever since I joined this site over three years ago and threads like this one have popped up several times during that period. What is the reason why we are still having these conversations about needing more support staff? Why haven't several more (not just one or two) been added by now?
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So, cg is supposed to be selecting more support members and hasn't yet?
If I may,
How many support members? Are you taking volunteers?
Without a time schedule, is hard to believe it's going to happen, especially anytime soon.
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Revising the calling out rule could be a problem with the whole herd mentality, but it might be worth looking into.
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Steamrep does nothing for key scams. User reports never get read
ALWAYS check on steamrep
Profile -> SteamRep (Enhanced Steam) -> Search SteamRep Forum
2 freaking clicks. If people don't care why should you :p ?
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As I said, steamrep does nothing for key scams. They close the reports immediately, if I ain't mistaken. Why do I care, you ask? Because I hate seeing scammers profit. xD And it's sad for people to say: "As long as I don't get scammed, I don't care about the others".
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To be clear, you should report them anyway.
the topic will be closed with "steamrep doesn't care about that, blablabla"
but the topic will stay right there forever, marked as "invalid", "closed", "whatever", but will stay and everybody will be able to read that topic with only 2 clicks.
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The pending reports keep being there, in the left side of the steamrep profile. The closed/invalid reports can't be seen. :/
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Well, if you google steamrep invalid report site:forums.steamrep.com
looks like invalid are not hidden, also I remember skipping some trades because of that.
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I doubt that anyone will actually search for invalid reports. o.O And even he finds them, I doubt he'll think that they're important.
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You don't need to search them
Profile -> SteamRep (Enhanced Steam) -> Search SteamRep Forum
Anyway, those reports shouldn't be ignored, "invalid" doesn't mean "innocent", it means that the report is missing something\is not complete\cannot be proved\etc...
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So far, I only see people getting suspended for calling out and scammers that keep scamming. But I never said that I want calling out to be "not against the rules". I'm just asking for a workaround, in order to let people report scammers in the community. Or at least, I would love to see someone actually read user reports. xD
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Of course. I just have to wait 2 years, till the scammers have scammed enough people, and then they will finally read my user report. :P Steffke, it takes months to years to read a user report and, sometimes, they never get read. Maybe your reports were about a different thing. But even waiting 1-4 months (which is unlikely, because it will probably take a year) to ban a steamgifts member, is too much. They will keep scamming people for those months.
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Ok, I'll try to persuade them make user reports and wait months to years till they get read. By then, the scammers will be rich and have 10 alt accounts. Then, they'll just have to make user reports for the 10 alt accounts and wait again some months to years. Great solution, steffke, very thoughtful. So, you don't find ANY problem at all in the report system? You think that everything's fine and should stay this way?
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How do you know they won't read it? Even if 1 guy/girl reads it, it's enough for me. There are many people, new traders, that would gladly want to know more things about trading, but they end up asking older traders, because they don't know where to find some information about trading. More support members WITH the privilege to read user reports, would be a nice change indeed.
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I literally just saw a post on the Steam group, about one of our most prolific scammers.
It's impersonating yet another highly reputable trader. (Look there for further details)
At this point, the least Steam Gifts could do, is adding a warning on user's profiles to check back on Steam if linked from another site.
And promoting the use of Enhanced Steam.
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They don't even want to add a trade FAQ, something that I asked quite a few times. >:( And which steam group? I would like to block all scammers, just to avoid them. xD
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I don't understand. The scammed people didn't live a negative feedback when the keys got removed?
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Usually, they don't. One my friends told me that he will do it though.
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Well, that system is in place :S It's much harder to scam if you have multiple negative reports, but if people are too lazy to use it...
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Then what? We'll just let people keep scamming? :P
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If people don't bother to leave feedback, they probably wouldn't report the scammer either, even if reports were checked daily. Add that often those scammed are unable to provide any proof and the scamming will keep on, albeit reduced. If we want a safer trade environment, the whole trade section should be converted in something similar to barter.vg:
- Agreement to trade on the site, not by pm. Add a warning that all the terms should be defined before adding the person in question.
- Allowing feedback only for trades agreed upon.
- Forcing to leave feedback and automatically submitting a scammer report if the feedback is negative, inviting the user to add the appropriate proof.
- Somehow point out the recent feedback and warn that it cannot yet be final.
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If reports were checked daily, do you really think that they wouldn't report them? :P And I have asked for a trade FAQ a thousand times, but nobody will probably ever make one here.
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Visit /r/Steam and you will see tons of peeps who say they got scammed and don't know what to do next. Most peeps do not know their elbow from their asshole when it comes to trading. A system like barter will help, but education is key.
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To educate them, we need a trade FAQ HERE, as I said. ;P It's the least they should do, till they make a better and faster report system.
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The main problem is that often people try to educate themselves only after something happens. There is tons of information and tips about trading safely on the net, but, like people who don't read the guidelines till they end up suspended, users simply don't bother.
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Mhmm and if the Better Business Bureau is right, it will only get worse D:.
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I don't know. Why not leave the negative feedback? It's just few clicks and few words, if you don't wish to describe the whole situation. A report will take much more effort. Feedback might be less effective than a ban, but it still works.
As for the FAQ: might be more effective to write one (or take one that was written) and then submit it to the mods. That way it will just have to be added.
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Why? Some reasons why are:
1) People are afraid that the scammer may -rep them back. Even if they ask for the negative feedback to be removed, it will never do.
2) People have lost faith in the rep and report system.
3) People are lazy.
4) They don't care about other people being scammed, but only about themselves.
I'm not sure I'm the best one to write a trade FAQ. I know many things about trading, but I'm not sure if I know about everything that I should write there and I'm also not a fluent english speaker/writer. And how to submit it to the mods anyway? o.O
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3 and 4 apply to the reports too :P I'm not sure about the 2, almost always when there is a thread screaming scammer, the profile is either of a person without a sg account, a permanently suspended sg account or an account with tons of negative feedback. The 1 is a good point, although people won't usually believe feedback left by somebody with lots of negatives, it will make the profile look bad on the first glance and a new user will be scared of it. On the other hand... people are often scared to report people too, afraid they'll get in trouble for some reason XD
Somebody has to write the faq and the less work the mods will have to do about it, the more likely it will be implemented. I guess you could open a support ticket in the "other" category and paste/link it there, hoping a support member will pass it to the others.
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I'm pretty sure about the first 2 reasons too, because they've told me so. :P And, as I said, I doubt I can make a good trade FAQ. Where to find an already written trade FAQ, that is complete and talks even about revoked games?
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I think I actually saw some threads on SG discussing various trading issues. You could check there or ask the community to help you write or complete one ;)
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don't worry, with valve policies we won't be able to trade anything any more in a few years.
I'm amazed how people disagree with the no calling out rule, like it's so hard to understand why is there?
maybe someone will end up making "scamtools" just to report and punish scammers. ^^
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True that. It was so easy and profitable to trade in the past, but now, it got so hard. :/ They don't even allow to buy cs:go gifts. xD
I don't necessarily disagree with the no calling out rule, I'm just asking for a workaround or to actually read the user reports.
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"actually read the user reports" isn't really a suggestion, that's like saying "just earn money" to a poor person
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And what should I say then? xD Never read them?! :P More support members with the right to read user reports maybe?
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It's not like people haven't offered to help, or offered solutions.
Every time this is brought up someone answers there are too few support members, if the problem is that it's a paid position you could just institut temporary/trial voluntary support members who can maybe only reject baseless or repeated reports, or give preliminary assessments pending final review by one of the current support members.
Feel free to provide alternatives, would it change anything if the site received donations? or if anyone with Ad-Block stopped using it?
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maybe someone will end up making "scamtools" just to report and punish scammers. ^^
Just equip Archibot with a few drones, problem solved.
ALL HAIL SKYNET
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I calculated total lines of C# code in ArchiBoT - 56k total, from which ~36k are generated and 20k written by myself.
Probably automating SG reports would be another ~500-1000 max :3.
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automated system to take care of scammers?
no thanks
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i agree, that shouldnt be automated, but reports for inactivated wins/regifting could be automated easily. validate the offense, check time since offense <= time since last punishment = new punishment level xx.where xx is escalating until permaban.
any part of supports job that could be automated, would leave them more time for the stuff that shouldnt be automated.
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Apparently steam is handled with an automated system, some legit csgo trader got blackmailed, massively reported and trade banned :\
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Thank you for contacting SteamGifts Support.
We apologize for the delay.
Upon investigation, we cannot validate your claim.
Have a nice day.
i don't want to see the same in sg
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I only need steam account to can create report about anyone scamming me. All I have to do is rename second Steam account, change it's nick and avatar, create fake trade offer and voila (that's what impersonators do, just to get items instead of creating fake reports).
With "no calling out" rule, at least forum doesn't change into den of fake reports.
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It's also about patience as I have learned.
A serial SG scammer that at the very least scammed me and 5 other SG users was permanently suspended eventually.
The problem for me was/is that the time between that scams are reported to SG support and the time that SG support reacts are the happy times for the scammers who in the meanwhile are more than possibly making new victims.
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They usually never get read, but ok, let's say it will take months to a year to read them. The scammers will have scammed so many people and they will have made other alts to keep scamming, so, in the end, they won't even care about the reports.
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I wonder if it would be possible to automate some of this: keep a tally of how many user reports a profile has against it, outstanding and resolved. When certain thresholds are met, bump that profile to the top of an urgent queue.
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Now that's an actual suggestion, but I suspect that regifters and such generate more reports, since anyone can see it, while a scammer will only be reported by the victims and possibly some of their friends
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Good point. Perhaps more granularity could be added to the reports themselves so that more important violations could be weighted more highly.
I had already thought several factors might go into weighting, like how temporally spread out the reports are (helping hone in on people who didn't just do one thing a lot of people objected to) or, resources permitting, whether or not the parties doing the reporting are friends on Steam (to avoid abuse of the system by groups of friends).
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That's another problem, there are no subcategories in the user report queue. You can pick a reason to report someone, but that reason will only be seen when reviewing the report. They are all mixed together in a same queue.
I suppose it would still work for a flagging system like you suggest, but mods can't decide "ok now I will look at scamming reports"
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Yes, that sounds like both a potential problem for what I suggest and a good reason to improve the reporting queue with some new functionality. ;)
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The trade FAQ, that I suggested in the far past, would be also great, just saying. :P It would show some progress till a new and better report system is made.
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I do like the idea of more site documentation. I think I commented on your thread then and suggested that a better solution would be a community wiki, which could then serve to provide a repository for all sorts of things which currently are buried in the trackless waste of the forums. :)
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Exactly. ;P And no, I don't want people that say "Why don't they search for a trade FAQ elsewhere?" because I'll be like "Then they shouldn't even come in the steamtrades section and just stick to the other site". xD Why need a big button up there, called Trade FAQ.
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I have never traded anything, but traders that knows what they are doing, do they manage to get scammed? Or is it only new users that fall for what I guess is simple tricks from a scammer.
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Some scams, like impersonating, are easy to spot with experience. Others though, like the one described in this thread, don't really have a "tell"--you just have to trust someone not to scam you. Your tool for figuring out if they should be trusted is feedback on this site, and whatever SteamRep tells you. Those sources will often warn you that somebody is shady, but there may be exceptions.
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Well, everyone can get scammed eventually. The only time I got scammed, was in the far past, because I bought 2 GTA V copies that got revoked afterwards. He didn't look like a scammer though. He used to be a trader for a very long time and some of his friends were trusting him, but he even scammed them too. Turned out he was raising money to buy a motorcycle. I banned him on steamrep and got half my money back, thanks to steam support. But this specific thread is about 2 people (that may be only 1) that are selling humble bundle keys that get revoked.
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Ok, was a little curious on if it were only beginners that falls for impersonators or if there actually also are traders that have built up positive reps and then manage to scam even a trader that trades often. Guess its hard to know if there is positivt rep and the keys get revoked later.
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Especially gifts/keys that get revoked are a big problem. If they end up getting revoked after a lot of time, the trader will have a lot of positive rep and trade even more games.
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Leave a neg rep, submit a report and carry on. There will always be scammers out there and unfortunately the onus is on the person to take as many precautions as possible to prevent it from happening. The best way to combat scammers is education: on how rep works, the types of scams, etc. If peeps are going around blind in the dark, it will be inevitable that they will be approached by a less reputable person.
There isn't much to be done since scammers are not something you can vanquish. Making their lives harder by forcing the to change tactics and reporting their accounts is the best possible way to push them back after the deed is done. The goal should not combating scammers after they have struck but preventing from doing so in the first place.
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Especially the revoked gifts/keys, take time before they get revoked. So, it will take time till you leave a negative rep. If user reports would be read fast, then people would submit them, and then scammers wouldn't manage to profit a lot. But they take time, scammers get rich, and, by the time the user reports gets read, they will have made another 10 alt accounts, so even if you manage in the end to close his main steamgifts profile, he'll keep scamming with the 10 alt accounts. Education would exist if they would have made a Trade FAQ, as I have suggested in the far past. :P
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I wonder, if someone goes with revoke way, by the time he starts revoking, doesn't he already have new account that already builds it rep while old account starts to die alreadY?
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Most of the time, scammers don't bother building rep at all. They just offer a good price and peeps take it.
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But they end up building +rep anyway. :P Till they get revoked, they gather a nice amount of +rep.
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Yes, that has been what I've observed. People with a solid feedback record seldom scam. It's costly in terms of time to build up a record--it takes working out many small transactions with different people.
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Hmmm, probably, but not always. If I'm correct, steamrep doesn't accept reports about keys anymore, so they maybe won't even care. Usually, they make alt accounts though. Maybe they even use them in the same time.
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Scammers don't drop accounts until they are forced to. I very much doubt they will spend the cash on making new accounts when the old one is still good.
Education is still key in this matter. If someone is trading with a peep with lil' to no rep, than they are implicitly taking on a huge amount of risk. There are resources out their that help peeps with trading such as those found on /r/SteamGameSwap, but it would be nice to find that here as well.
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They make alt accounts very often, trust me. Or they just cooperate with friends. And if a guy, even with zero rep, asks you to trade with him and he'll even go first, maybe you'll fall into his trap and don't even think that his gift/key will get revoked. And if you see other people trading with him, you'll trust him.
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I think it's quite clear there's a need for more support members on this site. I think the current support team is doing the best they can, but from what I've seen they get a massive amount of tickets and they're doing this without getting paid. It is only the logical conclusion of being understaffed, the best you can do is still report those users and hope they get banned eventually. I just hope the support team knows we know they're doing their best and we appreciate the free time they spend on it :)
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I think even the support team agrees that they need more support members. :P But most support members don't have the right to read user reports. And by the time they get read, if they ever get read, the scammers will be rich and will have 10 alt accounts. xD
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You're not wrong, we can only hope they add more support members ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
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And if the report system hadn't collected a lot of negative fame, people would report scammers more often. But now, they don't report them on steamgifts, on steamrep, on steam support, nowhere at all. :P
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It's like you said if it takes a long time to get a response or you don't get a response at all it can feel like it's futile, but it's still better to try than to give up entirely.
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More isn't necessarily better.
How does one choose new SG support members and how long does it take to make them ready for their tasks?
You can't go to the supermarket for them and you can't ask just anyone to be a SG support member as some would work objectively for the good of SG while others would work of subjective, personal and proverbial Stasi lists just for the good of their own. ^^
Adding SG support members is imho not the silver bullet here.
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I strongly disagree the staff is very clearly understaffed. Most people are really bad at correctly judging outcomes and tend to be overcautious. Of course someone could abuse the system, but is it likely? Not really, since there's not much to gain and a high change of getting caught.
I agree it isn't easy, but just like any job interview at some point you have to take a risk on someone. There are plenty ways to separate the wheat from the chaff: been a member for x month/years, no unactivated or multiple wins, no VAC bans, starting at the lowest level, getting monitored by higher ranking support members, promote moderators after x time, and harsh punishment for those that abuse their moderating roles i.e. permanent ban from the site.
Not changing because you're afraid that something bad might happen is much worse IMHO.
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I didn't say that there was no change needed, other possibilities could be an automation of for example the reroll tickets so that SG support can use the time that becomes available for other things.
Also stopping tickets being made through optimising for example all the available information about SG rules and guidelines in one mandatory post to read each time one logs into SG and educating (new) users to be clearly aware of these rules and guidelines.
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I can agree with automation if it's done correctly, since some rerolls are ambiguous and you don't want people to abuse the reroll system either. I'm also for adding more features to the current system. But without adding new people it I don't think it will be enough, you have to be able to trust some people.
You can't make people read if they don't want to, especially if they don't even speak the language. I'm all for optimizing the SG rules though, since they're kind of poorly explained at the moment. And also it would just be annoying/punishing to the rest of us who read them.
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I don't know if it has been said already, but back in the days of Steamgifts V1 and when Steamtrades.com resided at its own URL instead of redirecting to Steamgifts.com, there used to be Stickied threads at the top (see a snapshot of the site from Feb. 2014), and yes there used to be a Trading FAQ written by a community member.
Of course, back then, from what I can recall, admin and Supermod were both active in policing the trades section as well, with Jade lending a hand at times and user reports were dealt with in a timely manner. I had action taken against my impersonator in a matter of hours, although by then the damage had been done. But further loss was undoubtedly mitigated by the prompt action taken by Rinarin and other mods. The number of users has grown substantially since then of course, and I guess it is also a personnel problem. Support is stretched thin already as it is, so I can't really blame them.
Though far from a panacea, bringing back the stickied threads and an updated FAQ is probably worth a shot, though.
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Those threads still exists, but now can't be accesed directly :(
https://www.steamgifts.com/trade/tIA8K/trading-guide-humble-advice-from-yours-truly
https://www.steamgifts.com/trade/af3y1/misuse-of-feedback-impersonators-alert
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Nice trade FAQ, although it needs updating. ;P And yeah, I agree with you. :)
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I've recently seen at least 2 traders (probably the first account is an alt of the other account) selling humble bundle keys of the previous bundle that got revoked afterwards. Then, they bought the humble survive bundle and their new keys will probably also get revoked. I didn't get scammed by them, but I know friends and other people that got scammed by them. Now, why I made this thread, you may ask. Well, what steamgifts is doing against scammers in general? I can't stalk their threads and keep warning people. I can't force people to leave a -rep comment in their profiles. Steamrep does nothing for key scams. User reports never get read. Calling out isn't allowed. There's no way to stop them?! They just keep selling keys and they also close and reopen trade posts. Am I mistaken that steamgifts needs to find a way to fight scammers? I mean, I even asked for a trade FAQ, a simple thing to do, but nothing has been done yet.
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