Comment has been collapsed.
Meh, the ToS is full of **** most of the time. To me as long as the item is not stolen then I can buy it with clear conscience. The only way I can find G2A to be a great place is buying games that are banned in a certain country. For example I live in a country where some games are banned and I can't get these games through any authorized reseller, I can either resort to piracy or to get the game from the grey market.
Comment has been collapsed.
There is no legal grey area with ToS whatsoever.
ToS have never and will never supercede law, it has been tested and tried in court again and again.
You can only be prosecuted for breaking an actual law, and most ToS are completely unenforceable legally and many actually run contary to the law.
Comment has been collapsed.
I'm pretty sure the intention of ToS, being civil contract law, is not that you can be fined or go to jail for not complying with them; but that if you don't follow them, you don't get to use the service. ie. you are free to violate the ToS and not be legally punished, and the service provider is free to suspend and/or terminate your account.
Comment has been collapsed.
They aren't free to punish you in the case of key reselling, which is why you never hear of it.
Publishers are simply trying to have their cake and eat it.
They have a business model in which they have eliminated huge portions of their distribution and manufacturing costs, and yet are trying to exploit consumers with illegal and immoral ToS.
If I buy a steam key through legitimate means, it is my right to resell it.
ToS do not equal civil contract law, in fact many breach civil contract law - they just rely on the ignorance of customers and the cost effectiveness of being pursued.
Cases in point Apple and jailbreaking, Mobile phone manufacturers only offering 1 year guarantees in Europe, etc.
Both were in the ToS, both were themselves found to be breaches consumer law.
Comment has been collapsed.
Not free to punish you???
I guess I must have dreamt up Account Suspensions, VAC Bans, Trading/Community Bans and Key Revocations. Also on GOG, Origin, uPlay, THIS VERY WEBSITE(ref. §8) and more.
Someone should contact these people and tell them to shut the hell up and get off the internet since they're just figments of my imagination, apparently.
But if you still don't believe me, that's cool. Just call me out for the scammer that I am, I'm sure nothing will happen.
Comment has been collapsed.
They're still not free to do so, in the case of reselling keys, I was very specific when I wrote it.
The account suspensions link - your first one, mentions selling accounts - not reselling keys.
VAC bans have nothing to do with reselling keys.
Trading/Community bans have nothing to do with key reselling.
Key revocations also have nothing to do with legitimate key reselling:
"The CD Key you used to activate the game was revoked by the publisher of the game. This can happen, for example, when the CD Key is intended for a limited time activation, like a Beta, or if the publisher determines that the CD Key itself had been obtained by fraudulent means."
Note the 'fraudulent means' part.
The GOG links mentions nothing about reselling keys.
Likewise for the Origin link, Uplay link, for S/G (in fact if you browse the trades section you can see people clearly reselling gifts / keys), etc, etc.
Not one of the links you offered showed anyone getting any form of punishment for legitimate resale of keys.
Comment has been collapsed.
Where did I mention anything about reselling keys? You said ToS are unenforceable - let me quote you here: "You can only be prosecuted for breaking an actual law, and most ToS are completely unenforceable legally", I showed you many cases where the terms of the service have been enforced. I think we've already established that "prosecuted" here is a red herring, the word explicitly refers to criminal law (not civil law which licensing and ToS come under), and you've been arguing that ToS breaches are unpunishable altogether, which is how we got into this mess.
If what you meant to say was, "Terms of Service that prohibit reselling of keys are completely unenforceable legally for that portion of the terms" (and if that is what you meant you should really be more clear about your arguments before losing them and changing the goal posts), then I can't say I disagree with you.
...But then, I can't say I agree with you either, since reselling of keys is neither explicitly permitted or forbidden, at least in Steam's ToS which I assume is the focus of your argument (if not, too bad, that's what happens when you make vague, unclear blanket statements with hidden qualifiers). So it's kind of hard to provide sample cases where people have been "punished" for reselling steam keys, as long as they were legitimately purchased, not breaching any region restrictions etc. (Though reselling is apparently against Humble's ToS, and they've allegedly acted on it.)
Not to mention that just because a term of service hasn't been actively enforced, doesn't mean it can't or won't be, or is invalid. Many crimes, contract breaches and licence breaches go unpunished all the time, it doesn't make them invalid.
Now, if you'd be so kind as to show me those laws that you say make ToS forbidding Steam key reselling invalid - I'll accept laws from any of the world's major regions, or international law. And also, those court cases you mentioned where said terms of service (again, specifically regarding Steam key reselling) were proven unenforceable. That'd be great, thanks.
Comment has been collapsed.
"Where did I mention anything about reselling keys?"
You didn't.
I mentioned them specifically in a thread about specifically about reselling keys.
If what you meant to say was, "Terms of Service that prohibit reselling of keys are completely unenforceable legally for that portion of the terms" (and if that is what you meant you should really be more clear about your arguments before losing them and changing the goal posts), then I can't say I disagree with you.
I actually wrote:
They aren't free to punish you in the case of key reselling, which is why you never hear of it.
Feel free to read back the comments. So it seems I wrote exactly that. Perhaps you should read the comments your reply to more carefully.
But none of your links referred to key reselling.
...But then, I can't say I agree with you either, since reselling of keys is neither explicitly permitted or forbidden, at least in Steam's ToS which I assume is the focus of your argument
It's completely irrelevant whether you agree or not, not a single person has ever been punished for the legitimate resale of keys.
The ToS of Steam are irrelevant too, as key resales are generally covered in the terms of bundle sellers, which supply a significant proportion of the key reselling market.
Not to mention that just because a term of service hasn't been actively enforced, doesn't mean it can't or won't be, or is invalid.
Indeed, nor does it mean it is valid though either.
I gave two examples of ToS being ruled invalid.
So it's kind of hard to provide sample cases where people have been "punished" for reselling steam keys, as long as they were legitimately purchased, not breaching any region restrictions etc
That's because there aren't any.
You provided multiple examples of people being punished for cheating, account reselling, etc - but couldn't provide a single example of someone punished for the legitimate resale of keys.
Might I suggest that's because there aren't any?
Now, if you'd be so kind as to show me those laws that you say make ToS forbidding Steam key reselling invalid
Why would I?
I never once suggested such a thing.
You seem to either not reading my comments properly, or are deliberately misrepresenting what I actually wrote.
Comment has been collapsed.
I actually wrote:
They aren't free to punish you in the case of key reselling, which is why you never hear of it."
Yes, you wrote that. After I already contradicted your initial statement. So, like I said, you lost the argument and changed the goalposts.
But none of your links referred to key reselling.
Yes, because you then went on to make blanket statements that ToS as a whole are uneforceable. Not just within the context of key reselling. You even quoted a case about iPhone jailbreaking. How is that relevant to key reselling? Maybe you should go back and read your own comments.
The ToS of Steam are irrelevant too
So, wait. Your whole argument is "ToS forbidding reselling of Steam keys are invalid, here's a bunch of unrelated cases where terms of service were not enforced, and one where the term was repealed in a court of law", and you're fishing for examples of where reselling has been punished. But you think the Steam ToS, the very one which I pointed out doesn't actually forbid key reselling is "irrelevant"?? Are you...even reading the words you type?
You provided multiple examples of people being punished for cheating, account reselling, etc - but couldn't provide a single example of someone punished for the legitimate resale of keys.
Might I suggest that's because there aren't any?
You might. But you'd be wrong. Besides the article I linked about Humble going after resellers - who actually forbid it in ToS where Steam themselves don't (you'd have to chase it up with Humble themselves to know if they actually followed through with it; as you might appreciate, people might be reluctant to admit they were caught reselling Humble keys and got punished for it (there also aren't that many murder confessions on the internet either)) - I did find but I just didn't quote because, you know, I figured it wouldn't be necessary since it's not in Steam's ToS.There's this and this. Not a whole lot out there (maybe you'd find more if you actually looked for evidence to support your claims in the first place, rather than declaring your opinion as fact and forcing the burden of proof on your detractors), but again that shouldn't be surprising considering reselling isn't explicitly against Steam's ToS, even though you seem to believe it's evidence that such a thing is forbidden by law. Which law? Well, don't really say:
Why would I?
I never once suggested such a thing.
Erm...
most ToS are completely unenforceable legally and many actually run contary to the law.
ToS have never and will never supercede law, it has been tested and tried in court again and again
ToS do not equal civil contract law, in fact many breach civil contract law
trying to exploit consumers with illegal and immoral ToS
Keep in mind that, according to yourself on numerous occasions, these are to be read specifically in the context of reselling Steam keys. So either, you can't seem to keep your story straight on whether you're talking about ALL ToS being unenforceable and/or illegal or only those regarding reselling of Steam keys (both cases in which you either have no evidence for or have been proven wrong); or, you knowingly just keep changing the context of the argument as it suits you, because I keep proving you wrong.
Comment has been collapsed.
Yes, you wrote that. After I already contradicted your initial statement. So, like I said, you lost the argument and changed the goalposts.
Nope.
My original comment which you replied to:
There is no legal grey area with ToS whatsoever.
ToS have never and will never supercede law, it has been tested and tried in court again and again.
You can only be prosecuted for breaking an actual law, and most ToS are completely unenforceable legally and many actually run contary to the law.
In no way did you disprove this, because it would be impossible to. It's a fact, law supercedes any ToS.
I find it fascinating that you are repeatedly choosing to reimagine our actual conversation to suit your own narrative, rather than deal with what was actually wrote.
Yes, because you then went on to make blanket statements that ToS as a whole are uneforceable. Not just within the context of key reselling. You even quoted a case about iPhone jailbreaking. How is that relevant to key reselling? Maybe you should go back and read your own comments.
Nope, again you a falsely misrepresenting what I actually wrote.
I quoted the iPhone jailbreaking case as an example of a ToS being thrown out by court, do try to keep up.
As for staying revelant to key reselling, please don't be a hypocrite, you linked to a whole host of cases of people being banned, none of whom were being punished for key reselling.
But you think the Steam ToS, the very one which I pointed out doesn't actually forbid key reselling is "irrelevant"?? Are you...even reading the words you type?
Are you reading yours or mine?
I wrote:
They aren't free to punish you in the case of key reselling, which is why you never hear of it.
To which you replied which a bunch of examples of being having their accounts restricted for completely unrelated activities.
There's this and this. Not a whole lot out there (maybe you'd find more if you actually looked for evidence to support your claims in the first place, rather than declaring your opinion as fact and forcing the burden of proof on your detractors
I'm sorry, this point is complete nonsense, I made a statement, it is you who is choosing to contest it and thus the burden of proof falls on you.
Stop try to weasel your way out of your argument, surely the very lack of any verifiable cases of people being punished is evidence in itself.
You have clearly spent a fair amount of time searching for evidence and yet have found none to support your position, beyond someone being punished for selling steam gifts (not keys) and rather than acknowledge you might be wrong, you want me to do the legwork for your argument.
people might be reluctant to admit they were caught reselling Humble keys and got punished for it (there also aren't that many murder confessions on the internet either)
Lol
So lots of people are prepared to cry about being banned for cheating, and be labelled as cheaters on Steam, but they're not prepared to be labelled as bundle key resellers?
It took me less than 10 seconds to find a murder confession on the internet, you've had hours / days to find one single key reseller who has been punished.
There Are Some Confessed Rapists and Murderers on Reddit
Comparing key resllers to to murders, wow you're getting desperate.
So either, you can't seem to keep your story straight on whether you're talking about ALL ToS being unenforceable
It's sad, and rather telling, that you continuously misrepresent what I actually wrote.
I never once wrote ALL, not once.
You're lying again.
I actually wrote:
You can only be prosecuted for breaking an actual law, and most ToS are completely unenforceable legally and many actually run contrary to the law.
It's bizarre that you continue to make to flagrant misrepresentations of what I write and still claim some sort of victory.
If you continually have to resort to such lies, it's not because you are 'winning'.
Still waiting for 1 example of someone being punished for legitimate key resale.
both cases in which you either have no evidence for or have been proven wrong
Only in your head, only by your continuous misrepresentation of what I wrote.
My OP:
There is no legal grey area with ToS whatsoever.
ToS have never and will never supercede law, it has been tested and tried in court again and again.
FACT.
My claim about legitimate key resellers not being punished despite ToS:
Perhaps it's not been proven beyond all reasonable doubt but even after numerous posts, walls of text, numerous unrelated comparisons (murderers, really?), and repeated misrepresentations of what I wrote you still haven't found a single case to support your counter-argument.
Comment has been collapsed.
In no way did you disprove this, because it would be impossible to
Yes. Your first post was almost coherent. I countered it and said legal enforcement is irrelevant since the point of ToS was to punish offenders via non-legal means (as in, not via the criminal legal system), eg suspensions, bans, revocations etc. That's when you went bat-shit crazy and started claiming all ToS were invalid, then when I proved you wrong you claimed it only referred to key reselling, then when I proved you wrong about that you denied ever claiming key reselling was illegal. Flip-flop flippity-flop.
So, wake me up when figure out which failed argument it is you want to stick with. Once again, be sure to quote which law makes Terms of Service against key reselling illegal. Provide the legal cases where such terms were proven illegal.
I provided examples of where people were punished for reselling keys. That you've chosen to ignore them is not my problem. You want to claim that ToS prohibiting key reselling is contrary to law, then prove it. That you've failed to do so time after time again says it all, really.
Comment has been collapsed.
Yes. Your first post was almost coherent. I countered it and said legal enforcement is irrelevant since the point of ToS was to punish offenders via non-legal means (as in, not via the criminal legal system), eg suspensions, bans, revocations etc. That's when you went bat-shit crazy and started claiming all ToS were invalid, then when I proved you wrong you claimed it only referred to key reselling, then when I proved you wrong about that you denied ever claiming key reselling was illegal. Flip-flop flippity-flop.
This only ever happened in your head.
Jeez, you either have serious reading comprehension problems, or serious psychological problems.
Perhaps both.
You're continuing to lie, blatantly, about what I wrote, even though it's there for anybody to read.
then when I proved you wrong about that you denied ever claiming key reselling was illegal.
That's because I didn't.
Not even once, which is why you can't even quote the post in which I supposedly claimed such a thing.
I provided examples of where people were punished for reselling keys.
Nope, you didn't provide any case in which anyone was punished for LEGITIMATE key resale (NOTE: the word legitimate, ask someone literate to explain to you what it means).
You provided plenty of examples of people being banned for cheating, even reselling steam gifts - BUT NOT ONE for legitimate key reselling.
You want to claim that ToS prohibiting key reselling is contrary to law, then prove it.
Nope, again this only ever happened in your head.
I claimed ToS prohibiting the legitimate resale of keys are legally unenforceable, which is completely different from being contrary to the law.
That you've failed to do so time after time again says it all, really.
That you've failed to understand basic English time and time again, and resorted to repeatedly lying about what I actually wrote, despite the posts still being there says it all really.
All you've done here is proven yourself to be a compulsive liar, and not even smart enough to keep your lies plausible.
Still, you keep lying and trying, desperately furrowing your brow in a vain attempt to understand how ridiculous you're making yourself look.
It hardly came as a surprise to how little you've contributed to this site.
Comment has been collapsed.
Oohh, big scary man, thinks contributor value somehow ties to argument validity. Aren't you a special little snowflake. Calling me a liar doesn't actually make me one, you know. Even funnier when you deny ever posting things that I quote directly from your own posts!
But you don't seem to comprehend much, this is obviously going nowhere fast... Let's go back to basics...
In your first post, you said:
There is no legal grey area with ToS whatsoever.
ToS have never and will never supercede law, it has been tested and tried in court again and again.
You can only be prosecuted for breaking an actual law, and most ToS are completely unenforceable legally and many actually run contary to the law.
That's your full post, no snippets, no taking things out of context. The intent of this post as I understood was that there can be no punishments of any kind for breaching terms of service.
You said: "ToS are completely unenforceable legally"
I read: "It is not legal to enforce terms of service"
I chose that interpretation, because the alternative would be you're just saying people can't be punished by the criminal legal system for breaches of contract/ToS. Which is absurdly obvious, and I, perhaps mistakenly, just assumed you weren't a complete idiot just posting completely irrelevant "facts" for the sake of it.
Then again, maybe I assumed wrong, since the other point that you're making is ToS can't supersede law. Which is also wrong, because there are all sorts of laws and rights you can give up via contract law. Not all, you can't legally contract a murder or become a slave, but there are tonnes of consumer laws, rights within the legal system (like the right to sue) and even constitutional laws like freedom of speech, that can be surrendered via contract, and have been upheld in courts. (refer here
I countered, and said, well duh, ToS aren't meant to punish you legally, or allow you to be prosecuted in a criminal court, they're there to give the company the ability to punish you via other means (eg. termination of service) if the user breaches the terms. There's ample evidence that they have the right to do so, have and continue to actually do so, and their ability to do so has been proven in many courts in many jurisdictions all over the world.
Now, what's not clear is, WHY you posted that in the first place, or what relevance it has to the topic at hand. In the countless posts since then, you've denied that this referred to ALL terms of service:
in the case of reselling keys, I was very specific when I wrote it
You denied you were referring to key reselling when calling ToS illegal. Me:
you denied ever claiming key reselling was illegal
You:
That's because I didn't.
Not even once, which is why you can't even quote the post in which I supposedly claimed such a thing
Then, you went so far as to contradict yourself within the same sentence with this little nugget:
I claimed ToS prohibiting the legitimate resale of keys are legally unenforceable, which is completely different from being contrary to the law
What you seem to be saying here is that there is something preventing contract law from signing away the right to resell digital download access keys. At least, I hope that's what you mean. If what you really mean is, you can't go to jail for breaching a ToS, then not only is that painfully obvious, but it's also off-topic and not specifically to do with reselling keys since it applies to ALL civil law, and no one was claiming that you COULD face legal punishment (ie. fines or jail) for breaching a contract.
So again, fool me twice shame on me, I'll assume you're not just shit-posting obvious and off-topic irrelevant factoids just for the attention, and assume you mean "the law prevents ToS prohibiting legitimate resale of keys".
Why are ToS prohibiting the resale of keys legally unenforceable? What law, constitution, court case or basic human right makes them unable to be legally enforced? And if there is a law preventing such a thing, how does that not make it contrary to the law? If there is something, anything, quote it. I've asked for it numerous times, you've ignored the request. If there is no such law, there's nothing preventing ToS against it. And as I demonstrated, even if there was such a law, that still doesn't necessarily prevent the right being given up via contract.
These are my questions, put as simply as I possibly can for your feeble little under-developed mind:
Do you believe companies have no means to enforce their terms of service (such as service suspension or termination), without breaching inalienable legal rights of the consumer? If yes,
a) What is your evidence for such beliefs?
b) How do you explain the numerous cases where such contracts have been upheld in court? (example)
Do you believe it is illegal for companies to include terms of service prohibiting the resale of Steam keys? You: "If I buy a steam key through legitimate means, it is my right to resell it" If yes,
a) Why do you think this is relevant given that Steam does not include such terms? and
b) What is your evidence for such beliefs? Remember to include evidence for both the legal right to such things, as well as evidence that such rights may not be overruled by contract.
Do you believe companies cannot use the criminal legal system to enforce their terms of service? If yes, why do you believe this blatantly obvious bit of information was relevant to the topic when no one was claiming such a thing?
Do you believe the Steam Subscriber Agreement contains terms of service that contradict laws that cannot be altered via contract? If yes,
a) What is the specific term you believe violates the immutable law?
b) What is your evidence for the existence of the law, and its inability to be altered via contract
If the answer to all of the above is No, then just what the hell WERE you referring to when you called ToS "illegal and immoral" and that "ToS are completely unenforceable legally"?
a) And how was such a comment relevant to the topic being discussed?
Comment has been collapsed.
Calling me a liar doesn't actually make me one
Nope, but you lying DOES make you one.
The intent of this post as I understood was that there can be no punishments of any kind for breaching terms of service.
The you need, desperately, to improve your reading comprehension.
You do know what prosecuted means, right?
And my comment, which you quoted in no ways proscribes other forms of 'punishment' - just prosecution (i.e. arrest).
Then again, maybe I assumed wrong, since the other point that you're making is ToS can't supersede law. Which is also wrong, because there are all sorts of laws and rights you can give up via contract law.
I can't wait for you to provide an example of which rights you can give up via ToS.
First off, ToS are ToS, not contract law. Please tell me which laws can be superceded by ToS.
The answer is in any country where there is rule of law and an independent judiciary is none.
If you're making the claim that any old fool can write a ToS for a company and have that supercede law, then frankly you're an idiot.
If a company's ToS can supercede the law in whichever country you're from, then I pity you.
Can a website's TOS be designed to legally supersede the local and national jurisdiction's laws?
No; any terms of a TOS or other agreement that violated local or national laws would be deemed null and void, and either unenforceable on their own, or possibly even nullify the entire agreement.
You wrote:
you've denied that this referred to ALL terms of service
Which is a lie, as you indeed quoted WHAT I ACTUALLY WROTE, barely a few lines above:
You can only be prosecuted for breaking an actual law, and most ToS are completely unenforceable legally and many actually run contrary to the law.
NOTE the complete absence of ALL.
English lesson for the day.
All is not many.
All is not most.
Now, what's not clear is, WHY you posted that in the first place, or what relevance it has to the topic at hand
Again, this comes down to your poor reading skills.
Read the posts I was replying to.
You denied you were referring to key reselling when calling ToS illegal.
Jeez, again you repeatedly misunderstand basic English.
I wrote:
most ToS are completely unenforceable legally and many actually run contary to the law.
That doesn't mean that TOS are illegal, just not enforceable LEGALLY.
Ask a mentally competent adult to explain the difference to you.
Or use a dictionary.
Why are ToS prohibiting the resale of keys legally unenforceable?
Because there is no such law in existence to prevent the legitimate resale of keys at present.
As such, the developers are arguing that key resale amounts to copyright infringement.
They are working hard to convince various legal jurisdictions of the merits of their case, however they are struggling to argue what differentiates a digital copy from a physical copy, which users are perfectly entitled to resell as demonstrated by the explosion of the used games market.
These are my questions, put as simply as I possibly can for your feeble little under-developed mind:
You're the one who gets repeatedly confused by ALL, MOST, and MANY.
You're the one who has repeatedly misunderstood basic English, and even after having such mistakes pointed out still made the same mistakes.
No, and I never claimed such a thing.
No, and I never claimed such a thing. Please learn the huge difference between illegal and not enforceable legally.
The cannot.
My reply was to this post:
Also, unlike with Craigslist, you would walk into the legal grey area of ToS breaking, even with trusted sellers.
I explained there was no legal grey area. Perhaps if you actually read posts rather than just misquoting them you would have had to make such a stupid claim.
No, and I never claimed such a thing. How is this in any way relevant to my OP?
If the answer to all of the above is No, then just what the hell WERE you referring to when you called ToS "illegal and immoral"
I never, not even once called ToS either illegal or immoral. You're just making that up.
It's a bit rich to call someone feeble minded, and then simply pretend they've wrote things they clearly haven't, or misunderstand the difference between 'illegal' and 'legally unenforceable' - instead of desperately trying to reimagine this thread, or lying about what I wrote to make yourself look less educationally challenged, why not spend this time genuinely educating yourself about the very basic things you've got wrong here, time and time again.
Comment has been collapsed.
You do know what prosecuted means, right?
To have legal proceedings brought upon oneself in the realm of criminal law. What relevance does this have to a thread where we are talking about consumer rights and terms of service (contract law), which falls under the civil legal system? Obviously, I was mistaken when I assumed you weren't just posting random, irrelevant bullshit just for the attention. Thanks for clearing that up!
First off, ToS are ToS, not contract law.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Terms_of_service
Terms-of-Service Agreement is mainly used for legal purposes
A legitimate terms-of-service agreement is legally binding and may be subject to change.
Sony claimed that by violating the terms of service of the PlayStation Network, Hotz and others were committing breach of contract.
(ended in settlement vastly favouring Sony, but undoubtedly Sony's lawyers believed this was a legitimate case. Are you more legally-proficient than Sony's best lawyers?)
Terms and conditions...usually refers to: the substantive legal terms of a contract; or a particular type of usually non-negotiable contractual document.
T&Cs may form part of a contract document
https://termsfeed.com/blog/terms-service-agreement/
Terms of Service explain things related to and set the legal relationship between the user and the services provided...It is vital for you to have this kind of contract set in place
http://www.ukbusinessforums.co.uk/threads/contract-vs-terms-and-conditions-of-business.292785/
What's the difference between a Contract and acceptance of terms and conditions of business? Is it just terminology?
No difference legally
It is more than enough for a T&C to be used in a legal case
Trading Standards agree that written contracts aren't necessary in many cases, and that the completion of online forms are legally binding
https://www.quora.com/What-is-the-difference-between-Terms-of-Service-and-End-User-License-Agreement
A Terms of Service Agreement also named Terms of Use or Terms and Conditions covers a range of issues...Based on those clauses, you give your company a framework to restrict or terminate users' access if they violate the contract
Or, you know, just go and have a look at the Steam Subscriber Agreement, which not only refers to itself as a contract in several places (eg. "your contractual relationship is with Valve"), but quotes the relevant Washington-based and international laws that grant it power.
But go on, call me a liar again! We all know that's what you do when you don't have a proper argument! The whole internet is lying to you!
I can't wait for you to provide an example of which rights you can give up via ToS...Please tell me which laws can be superceded by ToS.
https://www.avvo.com/legal-answers/can-a-consumer-contract-override-state-law-2011427.html
Yes, contracts can preempt some aspects of state law.
http://www.smsm.com/blogs-litigationblog,State_Laws_Cannot_Override_Contract_Clauses
State laws cannot override contract clauses requiring customers to present complaints individually to arbitration
http://smallbusiness.chron.com/rights-after-signing-legal-contract-69546.html
You can't sign contracts that surrender fundamental rights, such as the right to liberty, but contracts can curtail certain rights, such as the ability to file lawsuits.
You'll need to carefully review your contract to determine what additional rights you have and what -- if any -- rights are curtailed.
Businesses are increasingly using contracts to limit the right to sue.
https://www.quora.com/Which-rights-can-you-not-sign-away-in-a-contract
https://www.eff.org/deeplinks/2010/07/court-violating-terms-service-not-crime-bypassing
From the judgement (but really, best read the whole EFF story and PDF):
In addition to any other civil remedy available, the owner or lessee of the computer, computer system, computer network, computer program, or data who suffers damage or loss by reason of a violation of any of the provisions of subdivision (c) may bring a civil action against the violator for compensatory damages and injunctive relief. Compensatory damages shall include any expenditure reasonably and necessarily incurred by the owner or lessee to verify that a computer system, computer network, computer program, or data was or was not altered, damaged, or deleted by the access. . .
but of course, you're still subject to liability under a civil suit
All the government had to show to launch its witch hunt against this young activist was that he had violated JSTOR's "terms of service" and taken (as in copied) something worth more than $5,000
The "terms of service" (TOS) of any website are basically a contract
They were rules of contract. Aaron exceeded those limits, the government charged. He therefore breached the implied contract he had with JSTOR. And therefore, the government insists, he was a felon.
Satisfied? Yeah, I thought not. Keep beating that dead horse though!
You wrote:
you've denied that this referred to ALL terms of service
Which is a lie
So, you don't deny that you were originally referring to ALL terms of service?
Me: you...started claiming all ToS were invalid
You: This only ever happened in your head
Yeah, you still can't make up your mind. But go ahead, call me a liar again for quoting your own words! I love it when you keep doing that ;)
That doesn't mean that TOS are illegal, just not enforceable LEGALLY
So, by what means do you think breaches of terms of service/contracts are settled? Rock-Paper-Scissors? Battle to the death?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Civil_procedure_in_the_United_States
Now, in case you were thinking of weaselling out of this one on a technicality, and arguing that "civil procedure in courts only result in judgements or orders, they don't physically force you to abide by the ToS/contact", then you should know that failure to follow a court order is contempt of court, which is a crime (as in, criminal law) and can result in fines or jail.
https://www.reference.com/government-politics/happens-don-t-follow-court-order-2cc455d6058f709e#
You: They aren't free to punish you in the case of key reselling
most ToS are completely unenforceable legally and many actually run contary to the law
in the case of reselling keys, I was very specific when I wrote it
Me: Do you believe it is illegal for companies to include terms of service prohibiting the resale of Steam keys?
You: No, and I never claimed such a thing
LOL LOL LOL LOL!
They have a business model in which they have eliminated huge portions of their distribution and manufacturing costs, and yet are trying to exploit consumers with illegal and immoral ToS
many actually run contary to the law
I never, not even once called ToS either illegal or immoral. You're just making that up
ROFL ROFL ROFL ROFL!!!
Me: Do you believe companies cannot use the criminal legal system to enforce their terms of service?
You: The[y] cannot
Me: why do you believe this blatantly obvious bit of information was relevant to the topic when no one was claiming such a thing?
My reply was to this post:
Also, unlike with Craigslist, you would walk into the legal grey area of ToS breaking, even with trusted sellers.
I explained there was no legal grey area
Ahh, so now we get to the root cause of all this mess. You seem to believe "legal" can only possibly refer to the criminal legal system. Unfortunately for you, pretty much every country in the world has a concept of a civil legal system. For regions using the Common Law legal system (eg. North America, UK, Oceania), it's specifically called the "civil law" branch of common law; as opposed to "criminal law", which is where "prosecution" comes in. And just who was the dumb fucking idiot who brought up "prosecution" in this thread?
You can only be prosecuted for breaking an actual law
Ooooohhhhh...
Most of the other countries of the world use the Civil Law legal system, where contract law still applies but freedom to contract is reduced, and courts have the ability to overrule or modify contract terms. Even Civil Law countries divide their laws among the conceptual boundaries of criminal and civil law, and "prosecution" still refers only to criminal law trials.
And sometimes, the boundaries aren't even that divided, as in United States v. Swartz or Facebook v Power Ventures (Facebook won the initial ruling claiming violations of criminal law), not to mention the contempt of court charges I described.
But c'mon, this isn't advanced politics or law school stuff. This is basic shit any citizen should know (unless you live in one of those Muslim Law countries, then you're excused). So, yeah, obviously I got it wrong in the first place for assuming you weren't a complete dumb fuck with no understanding of basic legal concepts. Totally my bad for that one. I've totally learnt my lesson there, I promise to never again underestimate the capacity for human stupidity.
And I definitely I won't hold my breath waiting for an apology.
Comment has been collapsed.
Lol.
You tried and failed.
Again.
To have legal proceedings brought upon oneself in the realm of criminal law.
Good start, so given you know what prosecuted means now, you must clearly accept that I was right when wrote:
You can only be prosecuted for breaking an actual law
In response to the OP.
(ended in settlement vastly favouring Sony, but undoubtedly Sony's lawyers believed this was a legitimate case. Are you more legally-proficient than Sony's best lawyers?)
From your Cambridge Uni link:
An example of a contract is the University's sponsored studentship agreement that may be negotiated between the University and the sponsor.
An example of terms and conditions can be found appended to research council grants (and which are non-negotiable).
According to your own link, Terms and Conditions do not in themselves constitute Contract Law.
Terms and conditions MAY be covered by law, or they may not:
From the wiki link (you even quote it yourself):
A legitimate terms-of-service agreement is legally binding and may be subject to change.
So it is qualified, and the qualifier is undefined.
http://www.apple.com/uk/legal/statutory-warranty/
Apple: 'The warranty conditions have been changed and these changes can be found on the website of Apple. Products that are purchased on the website of the manufacturer or in stores are now under warranty for two years, as it is required by the EU warranty guidelines. However, the warranty for Apple products that have been purchased elsewhere will not change and they will only be given a limited one-year warranty.'
But hey, perhaps you think you are more proficient than Apple's lawyers, and the EU or Australia, right?
You keep desperately referring back to the Steam Subscriber Agreement, even though I never mentioned it, until you brought it up, and neither did the OP.
You bleat and cry claiming I bring up irrelevant points, yet it's you who keeps doing it.
From your own links:
T&Cs MAY form part of a contract document
So they MAY not DO. Which contradicts my point how exactly?
Yes, contracts can preempt some aspects of state law.
State Law does not exist in the UK, for a start. And state law, is superceded by Federal Law. so it's largely a meaningless point anyway.
And it says CONTRACTS, not ToS, you're desperately shifting the goalposts there.
Terms of Service explain things related to and set the legal relationship between the user and the services provided...It is vital for you to have this kind of contract set in place
A fucking ToS generator promoting their own service?
Talk about desperate.
It even gives a disclaimer at the bottom:
This article is not a substitute for professional legal advice. This article does not create an attorney-client relationship, nor is it a solicitation to offer legal advice.
Lol.
I guess you missed that, right?
In fact, I can't be arsed going throw a lot of those links, because they are largely completely irrevelant.
They deal predominantly with CONTRACTS and not TERMS OF SERVICE and your own links have already demonstrably proven that, at best, LEGITIMATE terms of service agreement MAY form part of a contract.
They were rules of contract. Aaron exceeded those limits, the government charged. He therefore breached the implied contract he had with JSTOR. And therefore, the government insists, he was a felon.
Jeez, there you making up stories, AGAIN - he prosecuted for a wide range of felonies, not breach of contract.
Contracts cannot permit you to perform any kind of crime, not wire fraud, not breaking and entry.
He was considered a felon because the govt. filed the following charges against him:
On January 6, 2011, Swartz was arrested near the Harvard campus by two MIT police officers and a U.S. Secret Service agent. He was arraigned in Cambridge District Court on two state charges of breaking and entering with intent to commit a felony
On July 11, 2011, Swartz was indicted in Federal District Court on four felony counts: wire fraud, computer fraud, unlawfully obtaining information from a protected computer and recklessly damaging a protected computer
On November 17, 2011, Swartz was indicted by a Middlesex County Superior Court grand jury on state charges of breaking and entering with intent, grand larceny and unauthorized access to a computer network
On December 16, 2011, the district attorney’s office filed a nolle prosequi declaration in the case generated by Swartz's initial January 6, 2011 arrest. The state charges against Swartz stemming from the November 17, 2011 indictment were dropped on March 8, 2012. According to a spokesperson for the Middlesex County prosecutor, the state charges were dropped in order to permit federal prosecution to proceed, unimpeded.
So just a little bit different than a breach on contract, or does your legal expertise exceed that of the US Govt?
So, you don't deny that you were originally referring to ALL terms of service?
My bad, I assumed after denying it the first time you'd actually go and read what I wrote.
Sorry for overestimating you.
I wrote:
most ToS are completely unenforceable legally
So no, not all.
ALL is not MOST.
Perhaps it's time to check a dictionary.
So, by what means do you think breaches of terms of service/contracts are settled?
Most are settled outside court, with or with the assistance of lawyers, some involve govt. officials outside of the legal industry, i.e. consumer protection bodies and /or ombudsmen.
https://hbr.org/1990/01/five-ways-to-keep-disputes-out-of-court
Smart managers know that they are also increasingly avoidable. There are now many alternatives to litigation that can nip lawsuits in the bud, resolve long-standing disputes, and even produce win-win solutions to old and bitter fights that would otherwise only leave both sides damaged.
But hey, what does the Harvard Business Review know?
Ahh, so now we get to the root cause of all this mess. You seem to believe "legal" can only possibly refer to the criminal legal system.
Again, you're resorting to putting words in my mouth.
Lying.
The root cause of this mess is your unwillingness / inability to read what was actually written, the cry about something else when it is pointed out.
Even your own links couldn't prove your own arguments.
So, yeah, obviously I got it wrong in the first place for assuming you weren't a complete dumb fuck with no understanding of basic legal concepts.
Like trying to pretend that someone facing felony counts of 'wire-fraud' and 'B&E' a was being prosecuted for a fucking breach of contract?
He was facing criminal charges.
Jeez. Why post a link if you clearly don't understand what it is saying?
Or someone that links to a ToS generator, with a legal disclaimer at the bottom?
Or someone who confuses MOST with ALL?
And I definitely I won't hold my breath waiting for an apology.
I beg you to reconsider, holding your breath for an apology, that, not only has no justification, but which is never coming would do the rest of the planet a huge favour.
Comment has been collapsed.
LOL, I love how you're still in denial, despite a preponderance of evidence that specifically contradict your statements. You couldn't have scripted better entertainment than this! If you don't like the link that I post proving you wrong, simply nitpick at it to demonstrate your misunderstanding of it! And if you can't do that, use ad hominem to attack the website's reputation rather than the actual argument! And if you can't do that, well just lump it in to a list of "I don't understand those other links, therefore I can't be bothered addressing your other ones either!" and pretend it doesn't exist! Classic!
Contracts cannot permit you to perform any kind of crime, not wire fraud, not breaking and entry.
No, and I never said they could. What I explicitly said was that contracts and ToS allow you to overrule some specifically rights granted to you by law, such or the right to sue (which I provided links to and you didn't address those arguments), and especially aspects of consumer law (which I also provided evidence for which you ignored). Not ALL aspects of consumer law, just a subset. One of those rights might be the ability to resell Steam keys. Except, it's not actually a right granted by law, and it's not forbidden in the Steam ToS, so I guess we'll never know - why you posted about it in the first place is still unanswered. Posting a specific case where a consumer law was found immutable (as in the Apple warranty case, which you'll note doesn't apply to the US) does not disprove my assertion that some legal rights can be relinquished via contracts. Here, you make the mistake of misreading my "some" and assuming "all", something that you keep accusing me of. Typical troll tactics, accuse the other person of making some error in logic, but go and do exactly that yourself and pretend it's not an issue. There's also the fact that it had to actually go to an Italian court to be decided, which would seem to indicate it is in fact a "legal grey area" that you claim doesn't exist.
And on top of that, you STILL can't get it through your thick skull that there is such a thing as civil law, and that your original post about criminal prosecution was not only entirely irrelevant and off topic if taken at face value (and ignorant and stupid if applied to the topic actually being discussed, in a bout of extreme failure of reading comprehension, the very thing ironically you again keep accusing me of, no surprise there), but also provably wrong given the existence of criminal court cases specifically regarding breaches of contract law and/or terms of service. Not that you being wrong matters anyway, just an amusing aside that even your strawman arguments fail miserably.
But I guess if you just block your ears and go "la la la I can't hear you" and with a wave of the hand completely ignore reality, you can believe anything you want. Anyone who proves you wrong is a liar! The whole internet is in on the conspiracy! As well as the US Supreme Court! And all the lawyers and judges in the world! And The Illuminati! I think I know why you posted that off-topic, incorrect trolling tripe though, it must have been the Chemtrails right?
Comment has been collapsed.
LOL, I love how you're still in denial, despite a preponderance of evidence that specifically contradict your statements. You couldn't have scripted better entertainment than this!
That statement alone says how tragically sad your life must be.
You are entertained by you repeatedly getting things wrong?
And on top of that, you STILL can't get it through your thick skull that there is such a thing as civil law
Don't blame for your inability to read the posts were I specifically highlighted cases based on civil law.
that your original post about criminal prosecution was not only entirely irrelevant and off topic
Jeez, you are so fucking dumb, you clearly haven't read the post I was originally replying too.
They specifically mentioned key reselling was a legal grey area.
Your replies, however, crying about civil law, were nearly ALL off-topic.
but also provably wrong given the existence of criminal court cases specifically regarding breaches of contract law and/or terms of service
More lies.
You offered one case, Swartz, and the fact that you cited it, and continue to refer to it as proof demonstrates that you haven't got a fucking clue what you are talking about.
Swartz was being prosecuted under criminal law for alleged criminal felonies.
Not breach of contract.
Read the actual indictment, read actual journalism covering the case.
Not that you being wrong matters anyway, just an amusing aside that even your strawman arguments fail miserably.
Says the guy who linked to a ToS generator to provide 'proof' of his case - and even they themselves said their ToS could not be considered even as 'professional legal advice'.
The only thing that outweighs your your delusions is your hypocrisy.
Anyone who proves you wrong is a liar!
You didn't prove me wrong though.
Even your own links didn't support your claims.
At best one of your links stated that a LEGITIMATE ToS may form part of a contract.
As well as the US Supreme Court! And all the lawyers and judges in the world! And The Illuminati! I think I know why you posted that off-topic, incorrect trolling tripe though, it must have been the Chemtrails right?
And there you,m the last desperate refuge of a man so truly defeated, largely by himself, the desperate need to start ranting and fantasising because they realise that all the efforts, all the lies, all the links that they believed thought supported their argument but didn't, all the misunderstandings, all the incorrect assumptions, the confusing of basic words like MOST and ALL, the confusing of felony and breach of contract, the denial of cases were ToS were ruled invalid, and now you're just left with nonsensical, hysterical, irrelevant and completely off-topic ranting about things you have clearly spent more time considering than you should have.
Just think, if you had led a more productive life, you have might been able to have contributed more than 2 games in 2 years.
Lol.
Comment has been collapsed.
What a surprise! More bullshit. Oh yes, I forgot, all evidence proving you wrong is inadmissible just because you say so. Yes, you're sooooo smart, better than all the lawyers and judges and politicians in the world combined. ;)
And still unable to address why you thought posting about matters of criminal law were relevant to a discussion about civil law....what a shame.
Hey kid, I understand you're upset about your own ignorance and stupidity, no need to take it out on others. Go ask mummy and daddy to explain the legal system to you, and leave the real discussion to the adults.
Comment has been collapsed.
More bullshit.
Well you do insist on posting your bullshit.
Oh yes, I forgot, all evidence proving you wrong is inadmissible
You'd have to offer evidence that proved me wrong first.
Offering lies, or arguments based on your misunderstanding or piss-poor reading comprehension (like the Swartz case, the ToS generator which explicitly stated it couldn't be considered legal advice, or the repeated referrals backs to contract law instead of ToS, or the links stating that a legitimate ToS MAY form PART of a contract, etc) - don't blame me that you've wasted hours of your life looking for links for evidence that doesn't exist.
Remind me how may cases you found of someone being punished for reselling keys?
ZERO.
Yes, you're sooooo smart, better than all the lawyers and judges and politicians in the world combined. ;)
Yep, says the guy who decided, despite the opinion / actions of several US judges, several US police depts., the FBI, numerous lawyers, etc that Swartz was being prosecuted in a criminal case NOT for the felonies he was charged with but FUCKING BREACH OF CONTRACT!
Jeez.
And still unable to address why you thought posting about matters of criminal law were relevant to a discussion about civil law.
Are you for real?
First off, were you less retarded you'd know this discussion isn't about civil law.
It's about key reselling. Even you should be able to read the title, and realise that.
Second you've written hundreds, probably thousands of words in your replies to me - how many times have you referred to key reselling?
Why are you unable to address why you thought that referring to Aaron Swartz was relevant to a discussion about key reselling?
Go ask mummy and daddy to explain the legal system to you, and leave the real discussion to the adults.
The same adult who repeatedly confused MOST with ALL.
Lol.
Keep trying, lying and crying.
Who knows, if you ask someone to help you fill in your paperwork, perhaps you might be able to claim some kind of social security for your disabilities.
Then perhaps you can use that handout to contribute to Steamgifts meaningfully, instead of just posting walls of text of irrelevant bullshit.
Thank God that I'm not so poor that in 2 years I could only contribute to 2 giveaways.
Comment has been collapsed.
Thanks dude.
It's telling that the dude can spend hours typing nonsense, but can only contribute 2 giveaways in 2 years.
Comment has been collapsed.
You'd have to offer evidence that proved me wrong first.
That you didn't read any/all of the links I posted, or refused to believe them, is not my problem. I know for a fact that at least some of them you would admit disproved you, since you either ignored them or attacked the validity of their source, rather than actually address them. (Those that you did actually address, you deliberately misinterpreted). What I found hilarious was that you disbelieved a site that specialises in ToS and contract law because of 'conflict of interest', but the sole source of your support was a Quora post! And I even had a Quora post that opposed it and you didn't believe it! The hypocrisy is lost on this one, methinks.
Remind me how may cases you found of someone being punished for reselling keys?
Three. I posted them ages ago. One of many facts that don't fit your version of reality so you've chosen to ignore.
Yep, says the guy who decided, despite the opinion / actions of several US judges blah blah blah
No, says the judges and lawyers and activist groups (eg. EFF) that posted them. And yes, Swartz was charged with criminal laws, relating to unauthorised computer access. And just why do you think the access was unauthorised? Perhaps because there was some legal document that outlined the terms under which the service was provided, and they were not followed?
Oh, and if you have such a problem with the way the article is worded to suggest that Swartz was criminally prosecuted for breaching ToS, why not take it up with the guy who actually wrote the article? Here's his bio:
Lawrence Lessig is a contributing writer for The Atlantic, the Roy L. Furman Professor of Law and Leadership at Harvard Law School, director of Harvard's Edmond J. Safra Center for Ethics, and founder of Rootstrikers, an activist network opposed to corruption in government. He is a 2016 Democratic candidate for president of the United States.
But I'm sure you know much better than him.
First off, were you less retarded you'd know this discussion isn't about civil law.
Where did you get that idea? What part of "legal grey area of ToS breaking" specified criminal law? I asked you this before and you never answered. The only retard who brought up criminal law was you.
Ok, fine, let's pretend for a moment you make an ounce of sense. This is about criminal law. According to you, there is a criminal law that grants your right to re-sell Steam keys. According to you, this law has been upheld "again and again" in criminal courts. According to you, Tos can "never supersede [criminal] law" that says you can re-sell Steam keys. Happy now? Great. Now prove it. Which laws, which court cases? Put your money where your mouth is, or shut the fuck up.
It's about key reselling. Even you should be able to read the title, and realise that.
And yet, not only have you failed to come up with a single criminal law that governs Steam key reselling (either explicitly allowing it, prohibiting it, or granting it as a consumer right), not only you were so stupid you didn't even realise that it wasn't actually addressed in Steam's ToS, but then you went on to make blanket statements about all terms of service, then backtracked when proven wrong, then came back to them again.
This is despite the fact that every time you lose an argument, you change the topic to something else entirely, then have a spastic fit when I even dare to address your off-topic strawman arguments. So I ask yet again, what does key reselling have to do with criminal law? Who, besides you, alluded that there was any link?
Second you've written hundreds, probably thousands of words in your replies to me - how many times have you referred to key reselling?
Dozens. When you've claimed you were talking only about key reselling, I talked in terms of key reselling. When you made blanket statements about all terms of service, I talked in those terms. You switch back and forth between the two at will depending on which argument I counter. Then you go right back to it as if nothing ever happened.
Proof: Your first post you said "ToS have never and will never supercede law, it has been tested and tried in court again and again". If this really referred specifically to reselling keys as you claim, which court cases have shown that reselling Steam keys is a legal right that cannot be rescinded via contract? Name one. I dare you. Which ToS prohibiting the reselling of Steam keys was challenged in court? Which law about reselling Steam keys did those ToS fail to supersede? Name a single fucking one. That you have repeatedly failed to do so says a lot about your argument.
The times that you did refer specifically to reselling Steam keys, you haven't provided evidence for your assertion. Eg. "If I buy a steam key through legitimate means, it is my right to resell it." - despite me asking you multiple times, you haven't been able to prove such a right exists. In criminal law or civil law. And in the absence of such rights guaranteed by law and determined immutable by a court, companies are free not to grant such rights via ToS/contract.
And remember that time that you said ToS were illegal and immoral? Then just a few posts later claimed you never said that? Yeah, I haven't forgotten. One of many examples of your lies that you project onto me. Cognitive dissonance at its finest.
Why are you unable to address why you thought that referring to Aaron Swartz was relevant to a discussion about key reselling?
Because you said breaches of terms of service could not be prosecuted. You weren't referring to key reselling when you said this (and it would of course be nonsensical to do so, since there is no criminal law that addresses resale of Steam keys, and no one claimed there was, except maybe in your version of reality that just happens to be inconsistent with everyone else's).
http://www.neatorama.com/2010/07/21/is-breaking-a-websites-terms-of-service-a-crime/
"Is Breaking a Website's Terms of Service a Crime?
Yes, according to the law"
http://www.digitaltrends.com/web/understanding-the-cfaa/
"Known as the Computer Fraud and Abuse Act, or CFAA, the law was the basis for 11 of the 13 felony charges against Swartz, who faced more than three decades in prison and a potential $1 million fine for his actions. Some of these CFAA-related charges partially stem from the fact that Swartz violated JSTOR’s Terms of Service – you know, the type of absurdly long document we all agree to but never read."
"because of this, prosecutors can (and have) interpreted this to mean that violations of a website’s Terms of Service are tantamount to accessing that website’s computers “without authorization.”
"If a prosecutor so chooses, she can use the CFAA to argue that anyone who violates a Terms of Service is committing a felony."
https://ww2.kqed.org/news/2013/03/18/go-to-jail-for-violating-terms-of-service-reddit-hopes-not/
"You know those terms of service you didn’t read but signed anyway?...It turns out that some prosecutors consider violations of such contracts a criminal offense."
I won't address the rest of your comment because it's typical trolling and contains nothing of value. Blah blah blah I'm the best, blah blah blah you are crying, something something I think Contributor Value determines the validity of internet debates etc. Yeah yeah I get it, baby penis is a terrible condition and you have to compensate somewhere, but perhaps placing so much of your mental well-being in online debates is not the wisest move for someone of your, shall we say, intellectual and physical shortcomings.
Comment has been collapsed.
And I even had a Quora post that opposed it and you didn't believe it! The hypocrisy is lost on this one, methinks.
Except that it didn't.
My quora post:
Can a website's TOS be designed to legally supersede the local and national jurisdiction's laws?
Your quora post
https://www.quora.com/Which-rights-can-you-not-sign-away-in-a-contract
So my post covered ToS, your post covered a contract.
Your own link, from Cambridge University already established the difference between the two.
A contract is usually a formal written agreement between two or more parties that is exchanged between them in a process of negotiation to arrive at a position that is acceptable to all concerned
Terms and conditions are mostly non-negotiable and are attached to an award
But, hey, maybe you now believe your own links are wrong, right?
Or that you know more that Cambridge University, right?
Three. I posted them ages ago. One of many facts that don't fit your version of reality so you've chosen to ignore.
Nope.
You posted a link about someone getting banned for selling STEAM GIFTS, not keys.
Another one of your facts that has no actual basis in fact.
And yes, Swartz was charged with criminal laws, relating to unauthorised computer access.
So criminal laws, not BREACH OF CONTRACT.
Wire fraud and breaking and entering cannot form part of a valid contract because they are illegal.
He was charged with those two offences, unauthorised computer access is a crime, irrespective of a contract.
I have no contract with MIT, if I access their computers I am potentially committing a crime.
Even you have belatedly acknowledged you were wrong.
Even laughably, and tellingly, editing your post to remove the following:
They were rules of contract. Aaron exceeded those limits, the government charged. He therefore breached the implied contract he had with JSTOR. And therefore, the government insists, he was a felon.
LOL.
So desperate, so pathetic, that you even have to go back and edit out your fuck-ups when I point them out.
The lies, the hypocrisy - they're all yours. You've monopolised them.
Oh, and if you have such a problem with the way the article is worded to suggest that Swartz was criminally prosecuted for breaching ToS, why not take it up with the guy who actually wrote the article?
I don't have to.
I can refer to the facts, which are publicly available.
You were the one who argued he was being prosecuted for breach of contract.
Not me.
You were the one who edited their post to try to hide their ignorance.
This is despite the fact that every time you lose an argument, you change the topic to something else entirely, then have a spastic fit when I even dare to address your off-topic strawman arguments.
The only one having a spastic fit is you, which is why you have to keep going back and editing your posts to remove the more embarrassing fuck-ups.
As for off-topic arguments, please stop being a fucking hypocrite.
You've veered off-topic in every single reply to me on this thread.
I've have no idea why you wish to prove your retardation by crying about off-topic posts when every single reply to me has gone off-topic.
That you have repeatedly failed to do so says a lot about your argument.
Lol.
I don't have to, I argued the ToS proscribing the resale of keys were unenforceable.
You're the one trying to disprove my claim.
Again, you've spent days trying desperately, confusing criminal law with breach of contract, all with most, etc and you haven't found a case of anyone being punished for a breach of contract for key resale, or even being punished for breaking the terms of service for reselling legitimately bought keys.
Don't blame me for your failure.
Eg. "If I buy a steam key through legitimate means, it is my right to resell it." - despite me asking you multiple times, you haven't been able to prove such a right exists
That's the problem here, you've read about and mentioned the law, but clearly you don't even understand the most basic fundamental principle that underpins law:
"Everything which is not forbidden is allowed"
Unless it is proscribed by law, it is permitted. Hence laws had to be written to proscribe murder, marital rape, etc.
In fact the argument you're trying to make is so ridiculously stupid, I'm surprised you're still alive.
There is no law / right expressly permitting you to breathe oxygen - so by your retarded logic, the human race should all be prosecuted for the illegal consumption of oxygen.
One of many examples of your lies that you project onto me.
Says the dude who goes back to each post to edit to remove the more humiliating mistakes.
Thank God I quoted your posts, so the only other people reading this thread can see the truth, so desperate are your lies.
"You know those terms of service you didn’t read but signed anyway?...It turns out that some prosecutors consider violations of such contracts a criminal offense."
Some?
Such as?
A prosecutor considering something is completely different from the ACTUAL legal interpretation.
For the past 20 years, he’s been the top prosecutor for Ingham County, a man who put sex traffickers in jail and built a reputation as “an outspoken advocate for ending human trafficking and prostitution,” according to a statement released by Michigan Attorney General Bill Schuette (R).
Dunnings faces 15 criminal charges across three counties, including willful neglect of duty and pandering. The latter charge stems from the prosecutor paying for sex with a woman who was seeking help resolving a child custody dispute, according to the affidavit.
Prosecutors aren't infallible, clearly but you keep trying anyway.
I won't address the rest of your comment because it's typical trolling and contains nothing of value.
Lol.
Trolling? The only one trolling here is you.
In 2 years you made 2 giveaways.
FACT.
You can cry and pretend it's not, but that doesn't change it.
Yeah yeah I get it, baby penis is a terrible condition and you have to compensate somewhere
Well you do seem to be trying really hard to compensate, as for it being a terrible condition, I can only bow to your clearly superior knowledge and personal experience regarding having a baby penis.
But really, you make a comment about trolling because I criticised your pathetic contribution to the site, and you follow it up with that.
Again, you're a fucking hypocrite.
Not only that, but you're so retarded that you cry about someone mentioning a fact, calling it trolling, but then type about your fantasies about the size of my penis.
Maybe baby penises are all you think of.
Maybe you like to imagine you're not alone, that other people might suffer like you do.
Personally, I don't spend any time looking at penises or even thinking about them, so I'll leave you to your baby penis experiences and fantasies. You really have lost the fucking plot.
I do wonder whether you consider that your baby penis fantasies are 'on-topic' in a thread about key reselling.
So to sum up you're a guy who is so poor that they can only afford two giveaways in two years and you also have an unhealthy obsession with other guys penises, especially fantasising about other men having 'baby penises' - interesting that you chose the term baby too, that could certainly be a Freudian slip, you're not Gary Glitter are you?
Comment has been collapsed.
Your own link, from Cambridge University already established the difference between the two.
Except it did nothing of the sort. It doesn't say ToS are not contracts, just differences in when the two terms are used. Not to mention all the other links that explicitly say a ToS is a contract, that you chose to ignore.
You posted a link about someone getting banned for selling STEAM GIFTS, not keys.
http://steamcommunity.com/discussions/forum/1/558749825134304045/
"I have been banned for selling a steam key."
"Key"
Key != Gift.
See those two words? They are not the same. The word "gift" does not appear anywhere on that page. Neither does it in the article about Humble.
He was charged with those two offences, unauthorised computer access is a crime, irrespective of a contract.
The computer access was unauthorised because it was forbidden via contract, what part of that don't you get?
I don't have to.
You don't want to, because you can't, and fail miserably. Nice deflection though!
Even laughably, and tellingly, editing your post to remove the following
Erm, what the fuck are you talking about? It's still right up there, in my post, and still proves my point just as it did when I first posted it. I mean seriously, are you fucking blind? Or just so stupid and desperate for an argument that you have to deny something that is clearly visible on this thread (it wouldn't be the first time you've done that, either)?
You were the one who edited their post to try to hide their ignorance.
Except I didn't and you're making shit up! Go on, search this page for "Aaron exceeded those limits, the government charged" and see how it first appears in my post 3 days ago, really why would I need to go on when you can't even get such a simple thing right? You are a coward, a liar, a hypocrite, you don't even know the meaning of the word coherent, and you are not past simply making shit up entirely to suit your own reality. What the fuck is wrong with you, seriously?
The only one having a spastic fit is you, which is why you have to keep going back and editing your posts to remove the more embarrassing fuck-ups.
LOL LOL LOL , remove what? Like the line in my post you say I removed but is there clear as day? You dumb fuck.
I don't have to, I argued the ToS proscribing the resale of keys were unenforceable.
Translation: You can't. And you haven't posted a shred of evidence to back up this claim. Meanwhile, I've posted all sorts of evidence that proves there is nothing stopping it being enforced in a ToS, it has been included and enforced in existing terms of service, and there are no laws, criminal or civil, that address it. You either ignore that or deliberately misinterpret that. You initially made a claim that the resale of Steam key was a protected legal right, protected by criminal law, and the criminal law courts have proven it "again and again".
Extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence, and you haven't given a single link, quoted a single law, provided a single case that proves your point. Time and time again, you fail to do so. That says it all really. There's no benefit to my argument in addressing anything else, really, but I mean, your other quotes are just so ridiculously insane I can't help but point them out and laugh at them!
"Everything which is not forbidden is allowed"
And there are legal documents that forbid things...they are called Terms of Service....
And there is no law that forbids the making of a ToS that forbids the resale of Steam keys... Therefore it is legally allowed to make contracts that forbid the reselling of Steam keys...
Some?
Such as?
Jesus H Chist, read the fucking article dickhead.
"Federal prosecutors charged Reddit co-founder Aaron Swartz with breaking terms of service among other hacking-related crimes in 2011. Swartz hanged himself in January of this year.
And a California prosecutor used terms of service violations as a lynchpin of its case against “My Space Mom” Lori Drew in 2009."
Do you want their fucking names and phone numbers too? Moron.
Seriously, it's not enough that you have to have random people on the internet do your thinking for you, now you need them to read for you as well? Well it's no wonder you're having so much trouble forming a coherent argument, I can only imagine that must be difficult when you're illiterate.
But that's ok, go on and ignore the other 2 links since they clearly don't suit your world view ;)
How amazing it must be to live in your world, where you can pick and choose which parts of reality to believe, and which to pretend doesn't exist.
Well you do seem to be trying really hard to compensate, as for it being a terrible condition, I can only bow to your clearly superior knowledge and personal experience regarding having a baby penis.
LOL! Not only can you not debate, or find proof to back up your arguments, but the best insult you can come up with is "I know you are, but what am I?"
LOL LOL LOL
Comment has been collapsed.
Except it did nothing of the sort. It doesn't say ToS are not contracts, just differences in when the two terms are used. Not to mention all the other links that explicitly say a ToS is a contract, that you chose to ignore.
Nope.
They didn't.
You're lying again.
Your links claimed a 'legitimate' Terms of Service agreement could form part of a contract, with the key word being 'legitimate' - the only way to test the legitimacy would be in court, which clearly hasn't happened in the vast majority of cases.
I have been banned for selling a steam key
Yes, what type of key though?
Were you less retarded, you'd also have considered the possibility that it may have been a key for CSGO or TF2.
Were you less retarded you'd have also checked the profile, and saw that actually the profile he was posting under hadn't been banned.
http://steamrep.com/profiles/76561198101399827
Were you less retarded you'd have also noticed that the poster did not say where or what they had been banned from.
You gave it your best , and failed, again.
You don't want to, because you can't, and fail miserably. Nice deflection though!
Were you less retarded, you'd have realised that it was actually addressed in a different point later in my comment.
But still, you're the one who is deflecting.
I made the argument, you chose to try and disprove, don't beg and cry because you can't find any cases which have any legitimacy.
Except I didn't and you're making shit up!
You did.
Stop crying because you were caught out.
As for being a coward, you're the one so pathetic, so afraid that you go back and edit all of your posts.
You wrote:
They were rules of contract. Aaron exceeded those limits, the government charged. He therefore breached the implied contract he had with JSTOR. And therefore, the government insists, he was a felon.
You then changed it, then you even removed what you changed it to.
and see how it first appears in my post 3 days ago, really why would I need to go on when you can't even get such a simple thing right?
LOL. You retarded fuck, it appears because I QUOTED IT.
However you're so retarded, you forgot to edit it out of another post in which you quoted it, LOL (from 5 days ago, not 3):
All the government had to show to launch its witch hunt against this young activist was that he had violated JSTOR's "terms of
service" and taken (as in copied) something worth more than $5,000
The "terms of service" (TOS) of any website are basically a contract
They were rules of contract. Aaron exceeded those limits, the government charged. He therefore breached the implied
contract he had with JSTOR. And therefore, the government insists, he was a felon.You can't. And you haven't posted a shred of evidence to back up this claim.
I don't have to, I'm not trying to prove anything to you.
Believe whatever you need to. Even believe Swartz was prosecuted, not for a host of felonies, but for breach of contract.
I mean I know you're a retard, but surely, even to you, it must be abundantly clear that I couldn't give a fuck about you or your opinions.
I thought you might just have cottoned on after I asked you to reconsider holding breath whilst waiting for an apology.
You're simply a way to kill time on the subway.
However many hours you waste on trying to prove your case, it doesn't matter.
you haven't given a single link, quoted a single law, provided a single case that proves your point
You've linked to many articles, but not a single one proves me wrong.
You've not quoted any law, or provided a any relevant cases.
You fail to understand even the most basic principles of law.
And there are legal documents that forbid things...they are called Terms of Service....
Jeez, you're so moronic you keep going over the same ground.
A Terms of Service may or may not form part of a legal document, but until the document has been tested in court - it is effectively a wishlist of whoever drew it up.
Federal prosecutors charged Reddit co-founder Aaron Swartz with breaking terms of service among other hacking-related crimes in 2011.
No they didn't.
He was charged with the felonies I listed above.
Breaking terms of service isn't a felony.
It's a reddit poster editorialising.
Please point the relevant US Law stating that breaking a term of service is a felony.
Not only can you not debate, or find proof to back up your arguments, but the best insult you can come up with is "I know you are, but what am I?"
Again, that's your shitty reading comprehension letting you down.
Note, you also failed to mention how your fantasies about my penis are in any way relevant to the topic.
You wrote:
Yeah yeah I get it, baby penis is a terrible condition and you have to compensate somewhere.
I wrote:
Well you do seem to be trying really hard to compensate, as for it being a terrible condition, I can only bow to your clearly > superior knowledge and personal experience regarding having a baby penis.
But really, you make a comment about trolling because I criticised your pathetic contribution to the site, and you follow it up with that.
Again, you're a fucking hypocrite.
Not only that, but you're so retarded that you cry about someone mentioning a fact, calling it trolling, but then type about your
fantasies about the size of my penis.Maybe baby penises are all you think of.
Maybe you like to imagine you're not alone, that other people might suffer like you do.
Personally, I don't spend any time looking at penises or even thinking about them, so I'll leave you to your baby penis experiences and fantasies. You really have lost the fucking plot.
I do wonder whether you consider that your baby penis fantasies are 'on-topic' in a thread about key reselling.
So to sum up you're a guy who is so poor that they can only afford two giveaways in two years and you also have an unhealthy > obsession with other guys penises, especially fantasising about other men having 'baby penises' - interesting that you chose > > the term baby too, that could certainly be a Freudian slip, you're not Gary Glitter are you?
So quite different.
But again, a decent try for you.
What a shame that the only meaningful contribution you've made to this site is making anybody reading this still, after a week, aware that you're a retarded, hypocritical prick.
If you'd only spent just 1 hour, of all the hours you've spent typing out your nonsense and fantasising about my penis, in paid work then you'd have been able to add to that pathetically small number of giveaways you've made.
Comment has been collapsed.
My god, are you really that fucking stupid?
And here I was ready to ask you, for about the 20th time, to post a single piece of evidence supporting your claims...and you go and fuck it up with bullshit like this?
Search this page for "They were rules of contract. Aaron exceeded those limits"
Notice how the first match is in MY post, now 5 days ago (it was 3 at the time I said it was 3 days ago, it may be 6 or 7 by the time you read this comment, do I need to explain the concept of time to you as well?).
Here is the permalink to that post:
https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/y3P7mSm
Hover your mouse over the comment time, it gives you the timestamp of the comment created. Hover over the asterisk, it tells you the last edit date.
Posted: August 19, 2016, 12:22am
Edited: August 19, 2016, 1:20am
Your reply: August 19, 2016, 12:58pm (note, PM, as in more than 11 hours after my post was edited).
Of the comments before that, few were edited, and those that were (for formatting) were edited shortly after the initial post and well before your reply.
That was the first post in which I posted that quote. Obvious, because that's where I posted the source of the quote. Because unlike you, I've been backing up my statements with actual proof, not just "I am winnar of teh Steam Gifts, worship my every word!" horseshit. There is no comment prior to that in which I posted that quote. If you think there was, post the permalink to the comment, and we'll check the post/edit timestamps.
You've been caught red handed in your own web of lies! No doubt now you are going to claim that Steam Gifts is lying to you, or I hacked the database or something.
If you can't get something so simple right, why should anyone believe anything you have to say? Especially your ridiculous claims about ToS and criminal law that you can't provide evidence for.
Your links claimed a 'legitimate' Terms of Service agreement could form part of a contract, with the key word being 'legitimate' - the only way to test the legitimacy would be in court, which clearly hasn't happened in the vast majority of cases.
You're making things up again. The majority of my links specifically said ToS ARE contracts (the other links didn't say they weren't, just clarified the situations where each term would be used). Hell, I even asked the question on your behalf, because you were too stupid to.
http://law.stackexchange.com/questions/13549/are-terms-of-service-legal-contracts
You're welcome.
And what the hell kind of logic is that, a contract is not valid until its been proven so in a court? The fuck? Contracts are legitimate and valid until they are proven not to be in a civil court (not a criminal court like you think). If you breach a contract, you can be punished for it (via terms outlined in the contract, or penalties imposed in a civil court case; not a criminal court like you think; I already posted evidence for this, you said it was off topic). You don't get to go to court and say "At the time I 'breached' the contract, the contract hadn't been proven legitimate in court, therefore there was no breach of contract". This has never happened, and I challenge you to prove it has. "Valid" is a ToS/contract's deault state, until it is proven invalid. Consult with a lawyer if you're just going to dismiss any internet-based evidence I post. Put your money where your mouth is. Record the consultation so we can all see for ourselves how full of shit you are.
Regardless, this little failed diversion of yours is great and all, but you still haven't said exactly what it is that prevents ToS prohibiting resale of Steam keys. There is no law that prevents it, or that guarantees the consumer right to resell Steam keys. Not even in civil law, much less in the criminal law you claim this topic is about - and again, without any evidence that this thread was ever about criminal law. You just saw the phrase "legal grey area" and jumped to ridiculous conclusions. The mental gymnastics required to make such a leap in logic possible is astounding, I'm surprised you took time out of your busy Rio Olympics schedule to troll video game forums with your bunk legal advice. Which we should totally listen to, instead of those pesky real lawyers, Harvard Law professors and SCOTUS judges.
But no doubt you'll change the subject again, or just go on one of your penis tirades...
If you'd only spent just 1 hour, of all the hours you've spent typing out your nonsense and fantasising about my penis
LOL. I typed one sentence that you were compensating for a tiny penis (and only as a response to your personal attacks on me, which you resorted to instead of manning up and defending your claims). You then went on to post a thesis about it, on the topic "I'm not...you are!" and keep bringing it up repeatedly when I ignored it :D You even quoted yourself to re-post the entire thing :D But apparently I'm the one who spends too much time thinking about your tiny penis:D ROFL :D
Comment has been collapsed.
why should anyone believe anything you have to say?
Says the cunt who cried about off-topic trolling by doing this:
I won't address the rest of your comment because it's typical trolling and contains nothing of value.
Then, with only a single sentence separating that from this:
Yeah yeah I get it, baby penis is a terrible condition and you have to compensate somewhere
Why would anyone believe a fucking deluded hypocrite?
The majority of my links specifically said ToS ARE contracts
Nope.
Read the quotes from the links YOU FUCKING CHOSE:
T&Cs may form part of a contract document
MAY form PART of a contract. Not a contract.
A legitimate terms-of-service agreement is legally binding and may be subject to change.
Doesn't mention contract there, right?
Terms and conditions...usually refers to: the substantive legal terms of a contract;
So not a contract, just part of of a contract.
What's the difference between a Contract and acceptance of terms and conditions of business? No difference legally.
Not terms of service, terms of business. Completely different.
A Terms of Service Agreement also named Terms of Use or Terms and Conditions covers a range of issues that govern the
behavior of a user when they are using your website or mobile app service. Things like content ownership, third party websites, > payments, copyright notices and more are included in this document. Based on those clauses, you give your company
a framework to restrict or terminate users' access if they violate the contract.
Doesn't state anywhere that the Terms of service equals a contract.
Terms of Service explain things related to and set the legal relationship between the user and the services provided...It is vita
for you to have this kind of contract set in place
Was written by a terms of service generator blog.
You must have not noticed the blog's own terms of service:
This article is not a substitute for professional legal advice ...... nor is it a solicitation to offer legal advice.
Ah so a blogger who offers Terms of Service, without providing any legal credentials, and with a rather significant disclaimer as their owns terms of service.
So not one of your links said that ToS are specifically contracts, not one.
And you even cherry picked those quotes, from your ukbusinessforums link:
Hi - just to elaborate on the distinction between standard terms and conditions and a contract -
A contract…is an agreement between you to sell and your customer to buy your goods/ services on certain terms....The fact is
that you will have a contract with every customer you sell goods or services to, whether or not there is anything in writing. There
are some exceptions but many contracts for goods and services do not always have to be in writing and indeed many contracts > out there are still enforceable in a court of law even though they are not in writing (for example some contracts can be purely
oral (although the difficulty in any dispute can be showing evidence of the contract).Standard terms and conditions of sale… having a set of standard terms and conditions is an attempt to put the legal agreement > between you and your customer in relation to the sale of your goods and services in one document to show that it forms the
contract.You're welcome.
LOL, a poster on a forum called Dave - why stop the fucking legal presses - a guy called Dave and a guy called Dale posting on a forum have issued a legal verdict.
More fucking hypocrisy.
No lawyers, no judges, no barristers, no solicitors just 2 guys called Dave and Dale.
Anyway, you said THEY WERE THE SAME, and even your own links say they aren't (except for Dave & Dale).
Lol.
Alas, even they don't say what you wanted to:
..... Providing they meet the basic requirements
So no then.
Even Dave and Dale couldn't rescue you from your own stupidity.
Regardless, this little failed diversion of yours is great and all, but you still haven't said exactly what it is that prevents ToS prohibiting resale of Steam keys.
Common fucking sense, go on to any grey market site - there are probably hundreds of thousands of keys for sale.
The only successful action taken against them has been when the keys up for resale have been proven to have been sourced illegitimately - either through fraud or theft usually.
And this successful action taken outside court.
TakeUplay for example, they took action on keys that were purchased through credit card fraud, deactivating most of them.
However, they did nothing about the thousands of other keys being sold on the same sites?
Why?
Even though they state clearly in ther ToS:
https://legal.ubi.com/termsofuse/en-INTL
The Services are intended for personal use only and you must in no event use them in any way for commercial purposes
without obtaining a licence to do so from us and/or our licensors.
You shall not, directly or indirectly: sell, rent out or market the Content;
Clear as day.
So what's stopping them from suing the same sites where the stolen uplay keys were sold, or at least trying to get the keys taken down?
https://www.g2a.com/uplay.html
Come on genius.....
Could it be that they are shit scared of losing a case and then having a legal precedent set, setting off a chain of dominoes which finally enforces the right, of European consumers at least, to resell their accounts, and even used digital games at will?
http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2015/12/french-consumer-group-sues-for-right-to-resell-steam-games/
Companies are shitting themselves, and rightly so, because with the TTIP stalling, the EU (the world's most valuable consumer market), will be swinging their massive hammer at geo-blocking, regional pricing, refunds, consumer protection, and rights.
Not even in civil law, much less in the criminal law you claim this topic is about
Another lie - I claimed, repeatedly, that this topic is about key reselling - as per the fucking title.
I replied to another poster who referred to a legal grey area.
Why bother replying as you clearly haven't got a fucking clue what you're talking about?
It certainly isn't about baby penises, however much you want it to be.
I'm surprised you took time out of your busy Rio Olympics schedule to troll video game forums with your bunk legal advice.
Jeez, you just offered a bunch of links which all disproved your own expert legal opinion that:
ToS ARE contracts
LOL.
You also wrote:
They were rules of contract ...... therefore, the government insists, he was a felon.
LOL.
And I know you're slow, but the Olympics finished days ago.
Though I don't suppose it matters when you're poor like you.
Which we should totally listen to, instead of those pesky real lawyers, Harvard Law professors and SCOTUS judges
Lol, like the ones who completely smashed your claims about Swartz.
Jeez.
LOL. I typed one sentence that you were compensating for a tiny penis
So clearly you are acknowledging that you fantasised about my penis, at least enough to form an, as usual, incorrect conclusion.
Who knows, maybe in real life that's what you say to everyone you disagree with, perhaps it's why you're so poor.
And you never wrote tiny, you, very creepily, very tellingly, very Gary Glitterishly wrote baby penis - very different from tiny penis.
It was a very odd, very jarring choice of words - even when juxtaposed to the revelation that you had been fantasising about my penis.
But again, my point stands, if only you'd put so much effort into contributing to the site in a meaningful way, instead of making people, the few stragglers bothering to read your nonsense anyway, aware that you are a complete prick (pun intended).
Really, the moment when you admit that you have thought about the size of another man's penis, and actually use it in your argument, then you're really just admitting that you've lost, and the only thing you have left are masochistic fantasies about the size of the penis of the guy who has beaten you.
You must be very insecure to worry yourself about the size of my penis. Perhaps it's why you mention it, as way way to prop up your own brutally low self-esteem.
It's the ultimate straw man, shithouse argument, and you used it, which tells anyone all they need to know about you.
Not only did you use it, you made it even worse, by adding a touch of paedophilia.
Comment has been collapsed.
LOL! Nice troll.
Ok, so I have a legitimate terms of service (legitimate in the sense that it doesn't break any laws that would render it void), and you agree to abide by it. What else do I need to make it a "contract"?
According to the US Supreme Court, nothing.
http://www.lawtechie.com/2011/04/supreme-court-terms-of-service-arbitration-clauses-can-be-used-to-prevent-class-actions/
The 9th Circuit held that such arbitration clauses in contracts of adhesion (contracts that users must agree to in order to use the product they buy, e.g., Terms of Services)
As stated above, Terms of Service are contracts of adhesion and now it seems that arbitration clauses in such contracts must be honored
http://law.freeadvice.com/general_practice/contract_law/adhesion-contract.htm
When a person purchases software and clicks to accept the terms of service, this is an adhesion contract. When a person buys a plane ticket or a ticket for a cruise and there are terms of service and disclaimers on the back, these are all examples of adhesion contracts.
https://www.eff.org/wp/clicks-bind-ways-users-agree-online-terms-service
one almost cannot visit a website today without eventually being asked to agree a listed set of "Terms and Conditions." But by clicking on such boxes, or even in some cases just by using the website, we as online users may be binding ourselves to legally enforceable contracts with the online service provider
Keep in mind, that one was from the EFF, who are biased in your favour, and even they agree that T&Cs are contracts.
https://termsfeed.com/blog/3-key-legal-cases-on-click-wrap/
In this case, the Second Life Terms of Service were a standardized contract which only allowed the customer to agree to it or reject it.
would a court nonetheless enforce terms of service agreements?
Yes - clickwrap agreements are routinely enforced.
As a general matter, it's no different than the "fine print" contracts that people enter into daily without reading
Well, the Supreme Court (and numerous other legal sources) clarify that Terms of Service are specifically called "Contracts of Adhesion". You, some random unknown with a penchant for lying and dreaming about paedophilia, state that ToS aren't contracts (then later back-peddled and admitted they could form 'part of' a contract).
And since you're so rich, surely hiring a lawyer for a few hours to explain contract law to you would be a drop in the bucket. Why do you refuse such a simple request? Perhaps because you know you're wrong?
I like the way you dismiss the posts on law.stackexchange too. "Hey, don't listen to those random losers on law.stackexchange! Listen to this random loser on Steam Gifts! I totally know about contracts in criminal law! Hey everyone look at me! I'm the greatest! Worship me!"
Also, tell me again about the "post" I "edited" to "remove" the Swartz quote? I'm dying to hear your explanation for that one!
Comment has been collapsed.
Yes, because disagreeing with someone's claim about a fact of law, and posting mountains of evidence to prove the point, and then being continually insulted for the privilege, surely makes me a troll.
Since when is replying to posts spamming?
Report me for what? Retaliating when I'm insulted for disagreeing with someone and posting proof to back it up?
Blacklist? Sure, I guess people might blacklist me if they disagree with me. Luckily, public opinion doesn't dictate who's correct, the letter of the law does. And if they agree with Socialjeebus that ToS are not not contracts and not legally enforceable, and not even valid contracts until they're proven in a criminal court (yes, he really believes all that!) then they're free to ignore Steam Gifts' terms of service without fear of repercussion and do what they like.
Comment has been collapsed.
Good old chargebacks, or bundle keys being resold is not the biggest issue. Time and time again we hear from different companies (like indie game stand, Rebellion, Ubisoft, Unknown Worlds, Funcom, Bethesda,Manga Gamer, Sekai Project, Humble Bundle and so on) about the issues with stolen credit cards being used to buy keys from them. That's where the real damage the grey market causes comes from.
Comment has been collapsed.
the point is, that you do not buy stolen goods on G2A. you do not. you buy games bought in cheaper regions, which is the same as buying something from a trader here on SG. stolen games happen only in very, very few cases. but this is not what usually happens on those sites. whenever it actually happens, the news sites make a big deal out of it. because they do, that is what gets them the most clicks. they simply do what newspapers always did. but think about how often you really heard about stolen games on G2A. there were only a handful of incidents since the site exists. the rate of stolen games on there is probably something like 0.0000001%. in general it's safe to assume that you buy absolute legit games there. that is just the truth. no need to act like they make their money with stolen games. they do not. they make their money with reselling games from cheap regions, and i am sure they dislike stolen games as much as we do. and they try to prevent it. because it just hurts their core business.
Comment has been collapsed.
and there are so many more thread of people saying that they never had problems. besides, whoever has problems is way more likely to go on the internet and talk about it. the vast majority of people who never got a game revoked simply don't post anything about it.
Comment has been collapsed.
i guess i got 90% of my ~60 blacklist entries for saying my opinion. who cares. if someone blacklists me for me opinion, i am not even sure i want to win a game from him. :)
Comment has been collapsed.
the only time i bought a stolen game was here on SG, actually. ^^ i started buying games on kinguin when valve implemented those region locks end of 2014. and since then not a single revoked game.
Comment has been collapsed.
uhm, yes. you can check those keys on steamdb. many AAA games are sold without proper region locks in cheaper countries. you assume that is something fishy. i know you're wrong. that is the difference between us. ;)
even the publishers known for their region locks sometimes fuck up for some reason. i still remember Call of Duty Ghosts. the CoD games always had region locks in place. this one did, too. the the Gold Edition came out - and it was lock-free. at that point every trader had cheap Ghosts copies to offer. same on G2A&Co, of course. this had nothing to do with stolen games. it was simply region free keys from cheap countries.
did you really think the price of the games on G2A is an indicator, that they are stolen? it's really not. :)
Comment has been collapsed.
“We’d like to be clear that the origin of fraud is not theft of the game codes themselves, but rather stolen credit cards used to purchase codes,” said a G2A spokesperson. They fully admit it themselves, just wash hands off any responsibility.
Comment has been collapsed.
yes, so? what do you want to tell me with that? what i am telling you is that keys on G2A generally are legit. that does also mean they are not bought with stolen credit cards (else they would get revoked very soon).
how do you think this site stayed in business for so long? buy selling mostly keys that get revoked? come on, you can't be serious...
Comment has been collapsed.
I'd say the aggressive marketing (I mean come on, it was G2A's spambots originally which made Twitch implement an are-you-a-human protection system in the first place), the money they threw at known and high-profile streamers and YT personalities*, and their refer-friends-for-bonus type of pyramid scheme also contributed a lot to that. When your income is practically 100% profit since you don't invest anything just take the fees, you have a lot of money to spend on marketing.
* To their credit though, all of these people I know had G2A sponsorship have now cut all ties to the company. Of course that still won't stop half of LoL's clans to promote them at every single step.
Comment has been collapsed.
all the things you listed sound so extremely negative. yet all the "legit" companies do exactly the same. big marketing campaigns, referrals, sponsorships - this is nothing new. the 100% income argument would also fit to ebay. yet nobody uses it that way against ebay. ^^ valve also does nothing else with steam than selling other people's work and taking a big cut for it. how is this any different? hell, i bet G2A pumps way more money in their support department than valve (relatively spoken, they have of course a smaller customer base). because as far as support goes - like so so many other competitors - G2A has valve beat. xD
Comment has been collapsed.
The difference with eBay is that it doesn't hide behind shell companies to avoid tax-paying nor try to extort money for a customer protection service that is by law has to be free and mandatory. Or make the users pay the fees that by contract it has to take (the +30 cent PayPal transaction fees).
They also don't use spambots. Which, you know… spambots.
Comment has been collapsed.
Some keys are legit, some are stolen like always. And they stay in business by being located in Hong Kong. There are also plenty of merchants selling cheap counterfeit brand hardware there, is their business legit too since they are still in it?
Also I'd bet G2A support budget is bigger than Volvo's even absolutely, but the same is true about almost every other company there. I mean having worse support than them can hardly be possible.
Comment has been collapsed.
oh, thank you! :)
yeah, people blacklist for any reason these days. ^^
Comment has been collapsed.
Like supporting a known black market that everyone else seem to know than couple people here. And by their logic because they can only afford buying games from there it must be fully legit. Butthurt devs, you try earning a living and then have someone steal what little you made, then come back telling how wonderful stealing is. You're all making it sound like G2A made the game and deserve every penny, devs or publishers can **** off.
Comment has been collapsed.
uhm, your post really doesn't make too much sense, sorry.
Like supporting a known black market that everyone else seem to know than couple people here.
i tried to read this sentence three times. don't understand it.
And by their logic because they can only afford buying games from there it must be fully legit.
what? where did anyone say that?
you try earning a living and then have someone steal what little you made, then come back telling how wonderful stealing is.
nobody steals anything. the devs earn money with the sales on G2A. what do you think where those games come from? they come from the dev/publisher. from cheaper regions, yes. but they are still bought from the publisher, and they earn quite a bit of money with those sales.
You're all making it sound like G2A made the game and deserve every penny, devs or publishers can **** off.
it's a marketplace. no one says they made anything. it's like ebay. occasionally you will find stolen goods on ebay. it doesn't happen often, but it does happen. does that automatically make ebay bad?
Comment has been collapsed.
http://kotaku.com/g2a-scammer-explains-how-he-profited-off-stolen-indie-g-1784540664
“When a chargeback occurs on purchase of a $40 game, we lose both the $40 from the canceled sale, and take a $30 penalty. So at a hundred fraudulent purchases, that’s $3,000 lost; $30,000 if there are 1000 keys stolen.”
Comment has been collapsed.
you are still talking about stolen games. i tell you this is the absolute exception. nearly no games on G2A are stolen. last time i tell you that. you don't seem to learn, and you don't seem to be willing to answer anything i said in response to you.
Comment has been collapsed.
Seems like they are just NOW starting to do anything at all about it after being rampant for years already. And since stealing from small indie devs means nothing of course stealing from charities isn't anything either. Don't really see what there is to discuss until they actually clean their ways. Now it's just "I get a cheap key that has a good chance of not being stolen" vs "Don't want to support any sales of stolen keys".
http://developer.humblebundle.com/post/147806409802/humble-fraud
And only 2 G2A blacklists thus far? Doesn't seem very popular vs the many I hear the other side gets :(
I mean please blacklist me if you're trying to gift keys from potentially illegal sources so I won't have to deal with it.
Comment has been collapsed.
I believe G2A offers a bad quality service, but that article is complete BS.
In the event of a chargeback, the (initial) seller pays back the cost of the product plus a legally imposed tariff <- that's where the financial loss comes from. The devs don't lose money because their games are sold on G2A; they lose money because they're subjected to an unnecessary and unfair tariff system. That's the real story here, though I guess that sounds too boring to Kotaku.
Comment has been collapsed.
Has anyone ever disputed that's how it works? G2A is to blame for allowing and promoting the sale of the keys easily and anonymously. And for taking this many years before they actually start doing anything about it. So you're saying credit card fraud is perfectly fine if greedy banks would just stop stealing chargebacks from people, or what was the point?
Comment has been collapsed.
"Has anyone ever disputed that's how it works?"
My point is that the Kotaku article is so busy vilifying G2A, that it barely glosses over the thing that's actually hurting the industry.
"So you're saying credit card fraud is perfectly fine if greedy banks would just stop stealing chargebacks from people, or what was the point?"
Where exactly did I say any of that?
What I said was that, in the context of credit card fraud, the chargeback tariffs are unnecessary and unfair. Unnecessary, because the reversal of funds should cost no more than what it did to send the funds in the first place. And unfair, because a merchant shouldn't have to pay for unknowingly having done business with a thief.
Furthermore, in the example of MangaGamer, from the Kotaku article, the thief claimed he exploited a security vulnerability in their payment processor. If that's true, then said payment processor failed to protect their clients, and for that, they should have incurred all costs associated with the chargeback that happened, not the other way around.
Comment has been collapsed.
Something else being wrong or not working as it should still doesn't justify some other wrongdoing. I guess the chargeback fees are there to stop rogue companies buying stolen credit cards themselves or something, at least a nice excuse for more greed.
Comment has been collapsed.
"I guess the chargeback fees are there to stop rogue companies buying stolen credit cards themselves or something, at least a nice excuse for more greed."
Not exactly.
Chargeback tariffs or fees seem to vary a lot, but as far as I understand, they're usually determined by two things: the bank's (perceived) administrative costs, and taxes. Even if a bank claimed 0 administrative costs, they would still have to pay taxes on the reversal of funds, if that's required in their country - this needs to change.
Comment has been collapsed.
this is exactly why you are on my whitelist. if I had a chance to upgrade your whitelist status, you bet I would. thanks for always share something that is not the usual bullshit.
Comment has been collapsed.
C'mon mate. Hope someone steals the profit from your work too.
Comment has been collapsed.
The thing is that more often than not grey markets are more risky than the other options available, if you missed a bundle you can probably get the game you want from trading and the chances of you being scammed are actually lower.
And about buying things on sale, you can just buy row keys from places like nuuvem and know that you're getting it from a legit place.
And if you still want it cheaper and right now because you can't wait, well... coughpiracycough.
Comment has been collapsed.
regarding bundle games it's actually cheaper to use SG/trade than key sites. i always sell my leftover keys on kinguin, and i am amazed how much some people pay for those. ^^
regarding AAA games - gifts on SG are more expensive, of course. you don't even save that much since they implemented the region locks. and keys on SG for those games often come from key sites anyway. people just re-resell them here. so i don't really see the difference.
Comment has been collapsed.
well, there are traders that are absolutely reliable. traders who update their threads. who are available regularly. who have reasonable prices and are always nice and fair. but yeah, there are also lots of traders i wouldn't want to trade with. i generally prefer a certain kind of trader, even if it means i might sometimes pay a little more than what would be possible (i am not willing to invest a lot of time into searching the lowest price anyway).
Comment has been collapsed.
Grey markets support illegality just as much as file-sharing sites do.
Use of a grey market site is just a way of giving yourself a flimsy excuse for your actions, and covering your ass on the legal persecution that's associated with file-sharing.
Past that, as noted, if you're going to grey-market, you really may as well torrent, as it's both a more cost-effective and morally excusable option.
Or, put another way: Grey-market appeals to one mindset, torrenting to another.
Inherently you can't really say one is a worse option..
..though you most definitely can say that G2A is more scummy than your typical torrent site.
Besides, your argument is like saying "This restaurant has better than average food, but sometimes you get a dead rat in your burger. Overall you come out ahead, thought!"
For many people, it's just not worth the stress. :P
Comment has been collapsed.
i'd +1 that like this:
If it weren't meant to be re-sold, the whole market would be working differently. But that is not how it would work out in a real market. Unless you want digital software to be worthless/sub-par which you can't even freely handle, its going to be the way it is.
What should change, are surely means of payment and security measures (way of offering in the first place/charge back/identification).
"brb. some guy with a unspeakable German name and Somalian IP address
is buying 30.000 licenses of my game with credit card - FINALLY REVENUE TIEM"
^ scams aren't always this obvious ... but get a grip will ya @ market
For the ones who still don't get ... if there is a hole in the system it is going to be exploited.
Comment has been collapsed.
For me G2A is like the trading market but better for the buyer. Because when you trade you dont the completions prices and the guy can try to swindle you out of the most money he can. With G2A is just a market people sell their stuff on so you can see prices.
Comment has been collapsed.
I used to pirate everything.
You miss out on achievements, usually have to wait a long time for crack release or you don't get any updates, sometimes it's buggy (football manager with no real names ugh).
Pirating is sometimes great to try out the game to see if you like it still since nobody offers a demo anymore.
The return policy on steam kind of remedies this, I've purchased two games I thought I'd enjoy but one crashed three times in the first 20 minutes.. (which is fucking ridiculous for a new game on my relatively new gaming computer), and the other was just not at all what I expected.
I mainly buy bundles or discounted sales like GMG, or I'll pick it up on a reseller site like kinguin or g2a.
Save about half the price, dev/publisher still made some money so that's something.
It may not give the full value to their pocket, but they have +1 player in their game, possibly commenting on their steam forums, visiting website, maybe streaming the game, maybe talking to friends about it, maybe posting it as a suggestion in a thread "what game should I play next?" somewhere.
Better than pirating. Imo.
Comment has been collapsed.
Just tried to get it through to you that sometimes the reason for BS is that they just happen to be a steaming pile of it.
Your arguments make you look like this is somehow endangering your business of selling keys or you're otherwise related. How else can someone love a known black market so much?
Comment has been collapsed.
Yes, stolen good are cheaper, that we already know. I'll much rather spend little time trading on Steam and buy all the games I want "free" from sales than support crap like that.
Why do you think G2A is getting all the BS publicity then if they're fully innocent? Jealous rivals?
Comment has been collapsed.
You'd think, but in reality it's not the case. The contract type where the publisher gets its money first for investing in the game and marketing, then the developer only getting after a certain amount of profit is reached is still a living thing. So yes, the publisher may get a few cents/dollars from a game that found its way to G2A, but the developer may have not. And the more cheap keys are sold, the less chances are to ever reach return investments. This is why so many small devs hate the resellers (or when a publisher bundles a relatively recent game).
Comment has been collapsed.
It's their own fault. Make prices fair. All resellers are doing is reselling the games bought cheaper somewhere else or from bundles. So publishers get their money, maybe a bit less,mbut it's better than nothing. I would never pay 60€ for a game, but i gladly pay 30-40€ for long awaited preorders. What is funny most of them are cheap enough on legit shops like GMG.
Comment has been collapsed.
Would you believe that many times the game is 60 dollars because this is the lowest price it may see return investments? As much shit can be talked about CoD, it is partly a dumbed-down shooter that is available to anyone because it takes dozens of millions of dollars to create, so it needs as broad of an audience as possible. Even a good-looking indie game can cost a hundred thousand dollars to develop, and when the average sales are around 5-50k on most indies, you have to adjust price accordingly.
People always think of Digital Homicide levels of cheap games, or the Unity asset store rip-off ones, but in reality even a bad indie game that was made with effort costs quite a lot to develop. And they don't have the luxury of many AAA games do, where most of the revenue comes from pre-sales and first week sales. (And even then, a game could be a flop financially, look at Battleborn.)
Comment has been collapsed.
I'm saying that because i'm from poor region and we are excluded from lower prices, that's the reason i would not pay 60€ for a game. Even 30€ is pretty expensive here, so people either pirate or look for cheaper options. If a german or swede would complain about 60€ price i would laugh.
Indie devs adjust the price accordingly, usually around 20€ mark. I doubt cities skylines, factorio, prison architect and others would be so succesful if they cost 60€.
Comment has been collapsed.
They also cost a lot less to create, so they can afford it. Pricing a game is a tricky business, I read quite a long article/interview on it way back then, where the "publisher gets paid first" model was the norm. Most of the times you see realistic pricing, then sometimes comes a Metal Gear Solid: Ground Zeroes or No Man's Sky…
Comment has been collapsed.
Not sure why any smaller team would use a large publisher for their marketing / selling in the first place, especially with modern technology, and such crappy contracts. Basically throwing the game away in monthly bundles doesn't help there either.
I doubt people would even buy their mediocre game otherwise.
Not a fan of G2A either, but blaming them for lack of sales, which is not their fault?
Comment has been collapsed.
Because a publisher can handle the legal aspect, the contracts with retail, and most importantly, the marketing. You can try to create a game and try to sell it on your own… good luck with that. You can sometimes see people around here try to promote their own games, but even the free ones generate little to no interest.
Comment has been collapsed.
Well, what kind of game are we talking about? Some small indie title?
Plenty of devs just self publish, and they still do get (lots) of attention and sales, IF the game is unique and decent. Here's the catch: most games aren't special, nor any good, and therefore lack interest.
Comment has been collapsed.
Plenty do, and plenty don't get sales. For every Minecraft, there are at least a thousand decent games that never get sales because they didn't get the same word of mouth bonus. Self-publishing is like any job in the entertainment industry, like Twitch streaming: you may get lucky and hit big or be really talented and still sink to obscurity.
Comment has been collapsed.
The word of mouth bonus might be a good start, but if there's lack of interest to begin with, then it just won't sell, no matter if it's any decent or not. A thousand decent games for every Minecraft? I kinda disagree there.
And even if there are, the market can only be saturated to a certain degree.
Comment has been collapsed.
Well, wasn't my example, but i would consider it to be unique enough, and there certainly was / is a market for virtual Lego playing.
Comment has been collapsed.
Why would anyone pay more from other retailers when something like g2a exists?
Because it's violation of TOS of Steam, HB's (No resell allowed). It's cheaper because it's dodging rules and technically should't even be allowed to exist - it's the steam version of smuggled cigarettes. This is not about logic, who would buy the more expensive. This is about morals, how much of a disocunt you need to start breaking rules you agreed to keep. And not everyone is willing to do that.
Comment has been collapsed.
Never used G2A or any other grey or black markets my view is it's up to you if you use those sites but don't complain if it goes wrong because you knew the risks.
Comment has been collapsed.
I buy there from time to time. All the stories you hear about stuff being stolen etc is such a small portion of the keys there (like less then 0.1 %). Just make sure to buy from a trusted seller and not someone that never sold anything or has a low reputation.
Comment has been collapsed.
I've never purchased a game on G2A, and never will. Sure, I understand not every seller is a bad person out to scam, or rob you blind but... I spent awhile debating buying, and saw so much shady crap it just discouraged me altogether. Think the worst thing I've seen, is developers giving away mass keys for games (not always bad games either) through various sites like Alienware Arena for example, to have some asses go and snatch up hundreds of the keys, then sell them on G2A. Just the thought that I could be buying a game off someone like that makes me avoid the site.
Comment has been collapsed.
Buy, but only from people that have very good ratings, a.k.a. trusted sellers.
People who just say "Never! G2A is a plague" and so on, are ignorant. People have bad experiences, but if you look at it closer, you see that almost always they purchased from less rated sellers or badly rated seller.
Also, if you do worry, G2A Shield is available. But I've only known one person, who got his key revoked and even without G2A Shield, he got reimbursed. It took a few days though.
The thing is, G2A is cheap. Those sales that are done on G2A would've been lost sales anyway, since most people wouldn't pay the full price or even the sale price.
Comment has been collapsed.
Most devs would you want rather pirating. Save up and buy a legit key later with a legit discount.
"Over the course of my reporting, I reached out to more than a dozen studios, and none had a positive thing to say about G2A. They view the company as uncaring about seriously changing the fraud on its service. Several said they’d prefer players who can’t afford their games use piracy, rather than support G2A."
http://kotaku.com/g2a-scammer-explains-how-he-profited-off-stolen-indie-g-1784540664
Comment has been collapsed.
Yeah, they say that. So what? I don't care if the company doesn't like it and why should I give a damn that devs give out free keys to random people to sell by accident. For one, they should do some research, and two, they shouldn't be bothered, since it's a write off. They lied and cheated them, fine. Just don't give them a key again.
Also, they are morons if they say that they prefer people commiting a criminal act, rather than doing something legal that they've gotten some money for (most keys are actually bought, you know). By the way, how dare they even have such egos to just shame people, who are supporting them (indirectly, sure, but still), even if it is with a lesser amount of money. (Notice that the article never mentioned all of the companies... I wonder why...)
Yeah, sorry. Friendly indie company, I won't commit a crime because you asked me to.
I don't usually swear on SteamGifts, but this just requires it - Fuck you for this arrogant mindset, more than a dozen indie companies. You don't deserve to have a fanbase, since your greed obviously surpasses your love for gamers that are willing to spend money, even if they don't have a lot of it.
Not shooting the messenger here, by the way.
Comment has been collapsed.
Except that personal piracy isn't a crime in most places. Credit card fraud on the other hand is. First is cost neutral, second causes additional costs. So you're saying negative income is better than no income? And that you too hate the devs so much that you want to make them pay for making a game and you'd rather give the money to credit card fraudsters?
Funny how couple people here know it's all legit because they can get cheap games, while most game devs and media keeps repeating a totally different story as if they could know a bit better what's going on that just regular users buying a key. But that must mean they are just jealous and lying indie devs, that sounds much more likely than the obvious explanation.
https://www.engadget.com/2016/07/11/g2a-game-key-seller-verification/
So like some said, they are only now starting to do anything about the problem after years of just promoting people who sold the most stolen keys to partner. And this only after getting caught red-handed couple times, otherwise they would probably never have changed their ways. To me that tells much more about how they were before than buying couple keys from there that by luck worked fine.
Comment has been collapsed.
Actually, personal piracy is illegal. You're crying out "personal use" even though only Switzerland and Spain allow torrenting. Canada just doesn't have many laws for it and Mexico doesn't give a damn. Oh, if you want to bring Australia in, then just so you know, they only have a legal gray area for movies and tv shows. Now, some small African countries might not have laws allowing or banning it, but no one who uses the Internet really lives there, so that's a void point. (It might not be enforced, like jaywalking, or using a bicycle without a helmet under the age of 16, but it's still a crime).
Also, you're talking like I'm committing credit card fraud. The person committing it is committing it. That used to be a thing in a lot of countries, but they understood how dumb that would be. You should never be punished if you sell stolen goods or goods that were acquired in an illegal manner. In some countries they can take it away, like revoking a key on Steam.
Now, as I said before, this can occur, yeah, but it doesn't really occur with highly trusted sellers, since they wouldn't be trusted, if they have a ton of upvotes.
Also, yeah, it costs them money if some charges back, but usually they don't get charged, because that's why there's Steam, who takes the brunt of the charge back. Also,
No, I don't hate devs. But I would say that G2A implementing its verification process is pretty good and it should solve a good portion of the fraud issues, which leaves you with what? People charge back on Steam even if they themselves bought those items.
Also, yeah, it is legit. Don't talk like this site is illegal. The reason why you hear more about negative stuff is because of negative bias. People report more negative stuff than positive, since positive is expected and negative isn't. How many times did you go and praise a grocery store for being on par or good while how many times have you gone and complained if needed?
Also, you're really asking why the media reports on the negative? Do you know how websites earn money? Ads. And if a topic is more interesting/controversial, it'll earn more clicks. It's just the G2A hate wagon. Also, again, you never talked about the high rated sellers, you've just been talking about scammers, who appear everywhere. They also appear behind your door to sell you fake insurance and in literally every gray market (since it's a marketplace). Plus, don't forget literally every market in the world. Have you not noticed the "Adibas" and "Nikke" products out there? That's illegal too! That's a problem as well. Yet, G2A actually does something about it, which is the verification.
Also, what are you talking about with this "promoting people who sold the most stolen keys to partner.". Their algorithm promoted only the high rated sellers with the cheapest price. They never supported a 61%, 100 sales guy from Afghanistan, called Ahmed.
I'm seriously starting to think whether you have actually used the site and how many times you actually got scammed and how many times you didn't get a refund or a new key. For some reason, seeing as you are just saying random stuff, I'd say the first one is just a big zero, making the other ones not really matter. (I've had problems with my keys, one of them just didn't work and that key was just replaced in a matter of hours, no G2A Shield needed).
Comment has been collapsed.
Torrenting something copyrighted is illegal because almost all torrent clients are also sharing it. That's the illegal part, not downloading, in many countries. Just like having a site that streams movies is illegal but watching the streams is not. Of course laws are different everywhere, that's exactly why some companies are based in HK and not EU/NA.
With stolen credit cards it can take weeks or months for the chargebacks to appear so the common story is key gets revoked 2 months later and you can't change your feedback any more. That's how many describe their system who have got scammed and the internet is full of their stories.
I'm really not believing in this giant conspiracy that's out to get only G2A without any base for it. Some random key reseller is so important that all game devs and media has joined together in a witchhunt, sounds so very likely instead of the obvious alternative of them just having done nothing at all about the rampnant problem until very recently. Even admitting themselves that they've had this huge problem and are now trying to fix it.
Me use the site? Get scammed? That could've happened couple years ago if I hadn't been smart enough to read about it before. I will never support sites that openly support selling stolen stuff without doing anything about it. If all I hear is either bad from all people in the industry and lots of users who got scammed or good from couple users who bought a cheap key that worked, which side you think will weight more? Also why would I ever waste real money buying stuff there when I can get it "free" and fully legit from Steam instead?
TL;DR: I don't think everything there is stolen, but large enough portion is for me to never support it until they actually fix their ways. Matter of principal, not % math of getting scammed or not.
Comment has been collapsed.
You obviously don't know how torrenting works. You always upload something, even if you put limits in place, making it illegal. Plus, you need someone to seed, so you could download, so your option is to basically throw others under a bus by not seeding, and being an overall leech...
"the common story is key gets revoked 2 months later and you can't change your feedback any more.". With this line, I do have to ask you again, have you really used it? You can always file a complaint and if you were a smart person and bought from a trusted seller, they'll feel the pressure to respond (Plus, I think you can actually change the feedback, but I'm not 100% sure). With the "Oh, the negative stories" stuff, I repeat my earlier point: Negativity Bias. It's the idea that you focus on the negative and don't report the positive. The threads with negative stuff in them gather more attention. This is basic psychology. If a video has 10,000 likes, but 1,000 dislikes, then people will see it as a huge negative without actually thinking about the 10,000 likes which is in the huge majority. And with G2A, you can see that only 6.7% of customers rate it 1 star (TrustPilot). It's still a huge part, but that's because of the obvious negativity bias and how it factors in every day services. Like for example, how many stories have you heard that were just positive with police officers? Probably one, two, maybe even three. But you've mostly heard negative stuff. Plus, people tend to exaggerate in those cases to show that they have been epically wronged.
No one said that there was a conspiracy against G2A. People say that there is a general misconception about gray market sites (which you called black markets for some weird reason...). People are lazy and they aren't aware anymore thanks to the simplicity of online shopping. The idea of a click and you're done purchase method is becoming more and more popular. When you're in a grocery store, you just buy items. When you're in an actual market, you look at the quality of the product itself, since there are multiple unofficial sellers.
G2A is not a "random key seller". It's a massive market that's extremely successful. It's being advertised by hundreds of youtubers and websites. It's also getting free advertisements from people wanting to use Goldmine. Saying that it's a random key seller is disingenuous at best.
Ok, so what you're saying is that you haven't used it, yet keep on talking about how the site works. You keep on saying that it scams people without having any real evidence for it happening on a regular basis. From your previous comments it was also visible that you don't even really know that G2A, since you've called it a black market and a gray market. Maybe you just don't know whether black markets are legal or not, same with gray markets. You also claim that piracy is illegal as long as you don't upload, which is impossible, since you always upload something, even a kB of data. Also, you say all the people in the industry, while a lot of game companies are either supporting them or are just indifferent. Also, for some reason you claim that G2A supports fraudulent keys? How does that logic even work? Why would G2A support people that cost them money? Why would you say that if G2A puts methods in place to inhibit that?
You say that you're not believing in a conspiracy against G2A, yet I present to you, you. You're the walking evidence of a conspiracy against the key reselling site, gray market, G2A.
Comment has been collapsed.
Obviously I just told you how torrenting works. So how does repeating the same thing prove me wrong again? Also there are other ways to pirate as well but enough of those.
You ask me again if I have used after I just told you I never have and never will. Doesn't stop me from reading all the stories of people who have got scammed Quick Google and you can find thousands if you're interested.Should I really get into buying/selling stolen keys to know that it's a bad thing? Or can I just not support it out of principal?
No matter how much you're trying to convince yourself that every bad story out there must be just negatively biased conspiracy against them, I believe in the age old wisdom of where there's smoke, there's fire. So only 6.7% as in 1 person out of 15 has gotten totally ripped off by their scams, good thing all those 14 others got lucky. About cops I hear (or rather read) stories of them doing their job and catching criminals mostly. Of course as humans they can do all sorts of things including crimes themselves.
Still haven't used it. Like I said, I might have used it if I didn't always research stuff like that before spending money. Personally don't think I'll ever use it even if they clean up their system, but then I at least could recommend them to others looking for a cheap price. Now I recommend people stay away and use legit sources instead.
If I was advocating piracy, I could tell you about several ways of easily downloading what you want without ever uploading anything. But that's not the topic here nor is the topic wanted here, so we can just stop with that. People usually pirate as kids and then start buying when they get some actual income. And at this point we're discussing where to spend that income to buy white, gray or black market keys.
It doesn't cost them money like you seem to believe. It's about the sheer volume of it that keeps it easily profitable especially with the G2A Scam Shield and people forgetting or just not bothering. Same system works with mail-in rebates and stuff like that. People buy $500 item now thinking they will remember to mail in the $100 rebate getting it for $400, but the majority never will, giving a nice profit vs just lowering the price to $400. People who got scammed and their key revoked couple months later aren't very likely to bother that much with G2A again. Seller tells them to **** off and they write an angry rant on some forum, never going back there.
Yes they are big, mainly because they have long operated on the shady areas where you can easily make a fast buck. Whitewashing that with supporting everything out there doesn't make it any more legit, that's just called marketing and it's bound to earn them even more because every kid playing CS:GO thinks they are perfectly legit.
Comment has been collapsed.
You say that devs prefer pirating vs. G2A. I say, piracy is a crime. You say personal piracy isn't. I say it is. You say that it's the uploading that's illegal. I say uploading is inevitable, making pirating illegal.
"You ask me again if I have used after I just told you I never have and never will." - Yeah, I understood you haven't used G2A. I acknowledged it.
Don't deal in absolutes. A marketplace isn't illegal. It may have illegal goods sold by someone. That doesn't make everyone's goods illegal. That's not how the world works.
For the third time. NEGATIVITY BIAS. Please acknowledge its existence. You're acting as if positive encounters get logged as often as negative. Don't act like a fool and ignore how people work on the basic psychological levels.
Why are you talking about police officers?? I gave you an example? Why are you addressing the example as a point of which we're even talking about? We're talking about G2A. I just wanted to illustrate the point...
"Still haven't used it." - Again, for the second time, I acknowledged it, stop saying that.
"If I was advocating piracy, I could tell you about several ways of easily downloading what you want without ever uploading anything." - That's not how advocating for something works I'm afraid. You endorsing it works as well. Also, I never actually said that you advocated for it. You yourself said that devs prefer pirating over G2A.
With the income vs. where you spend it is kind of true. But why should anyone buy a more expensive key if G2A has it for a cheaper price? Don't bring the stolen argument in again, since you know that it's not true. It's not 100% of the keys, not 50%, not 10%, not even 5%. It's more like 1% max. And that's being solved.
Are you insane? It obviously costs them money to receive a chargeback! You just need to wrap your head around net earnings and just expenses. You can earn more than you spend, sure, but chargebacks are just an expense. Also, G2A Shield is pointless, I agree. But it's basically a service that you get from the owner of the market, which means that they'll personally intervene and guarantee a win, instead of having a 98% chance of winning (chance is purely anecdotal). Most sellers, again, worry too much about their reputations to fuck up, since it's their livelihood on the line.
You truly are ignorant. It's like debating what's in the bible without you actually having read the bible and just you reading excerpts. You don't know how humans work and you have no critical thinking. You take what you hear and preach it as fact. I guess some small youtuber or redditor complained and now you're up in arms fighting against the enemy that you don't even know.
Please, before responding, look up the difference between being a marketplace and an actual seller.
And then think with your head, not through Reddit, how you could prevent being scammed. Seriously. If you can't, I'll help. (Just like I said in my first bloody comment)
Comment has been collapsed.
I only say laws as they are here and in most of Europe. Downloading for personal use is perfectly legal.
And it's not about the marketplace selling illegal stuff themselves. It's about what they do when someone does sell there. Do they make it super easy to sell anon and cash out bitcoins? Do they promote you because you sold so much? Do they require actual verification? Do you cooperate with devs, law enforcement etc to make it stop? Questions like these, not just "Is this key I bought stolen or not". Like I said a matter of principle of not supporting anything that supports easy crimes.
Talking about biases all I see here is a positivity bias. "This site is good for me, I got lots of cheap keys so it must be good". Same works both ways you know. It's very common to refuse believing anything bad about something you like. With your basic psychology you should know this fully well but are ignoring it for selfish reasons.
And yes it's the devs that say you should rather pirate. Not advocating was just a disclaimer of not supporting it, not really a response to anything.
Just looked at prices there for a game I have wishlisted. They have couple gifts for 55% price, those are 99.99%+ likely legit ones bought from summer sale for 50% so wouldn't think there is any risk there. But since I really don't have any reason to pay some random person the extra 5% I'll rather wait for winter sale and 50% again to buy it from Steam myself. If I was in a hurry to get said game I would've just bought it from summer sale myself.
What exactly would using the site give me? Some sort of new infomation that guarantees them being fully legit? I prefer looking at the big picture instead of just single experiences. Do you need to eat poop to know it tastes bad? "Small youtuber or redditer" as in still the whole industry and most media, I don't even follow those social medias that much. If everything you find tells you that poop tastes bad, do you still need to taste it yourself because obviously that's just negativity bias towards poor poop.
WTF has Reddit even have to do with this? About the only thing for me there is https://www.reddit.com/r/FreeGamesOnSteam/new/
Never have been scammed so really don't need any help for it, but thanks for the offer. You just fail to realize that for every one who knows how to pick trusted sellers and whatever is required there to not get scammed, there are a thousands of people who are mostly clueless online and easily scammed. So are you going to help every clueless kid in the world so they wont get scammed there or what? This is still why personal experiences are almost worthless when talking about the big picture. If their system easily allows and even promotes scamming thousands of kids every day, it's totally meaningless if you got scammed or not.
I'm still getting my games for "free" fully legit from Steam twice a year and then some cheap bundles so using any reseller would cost more to me, not less.
Comment has been collapsed.
Because nothing wrong with g2a / kinguin. The problem is a seller who sell stolen stuff in g2a.
Comment has been collapsed.
Except knowing about all the crap thats going on their sites and doing nothing to prevent it and offering a "Service" (G2A Shield) that equals collecting protection money (hint thats stuff the mafia does)
So Yeah absolutely nothing wrong with them.
Comment has been collapsed.
Don't.
You'd be supporting shady scumbags and if the prices seem tempting, just remember that they're cheap for a reason. (Key might be invalid and there's no way to get your money back, region locking, etc.)
Comment has been collapsed.
By the way, there is a way to get money back. Most sellers either provide a new key or give a refund. I don't know of a single person that got scammed and actually tried to get an explanation, who didn't get their money back (this is all from my friends, family and their's).
Region locking exists due to Steam. Also, G2A has actually made an effort to separate region locked keys to ROW keys.
Comment has been collapsed.
Just imagine G2A is a mall, and sellers rent some space in that mall to open their shop. People come and go, and buying some stuff from their shop. Later customer complain because of some stuff their paid before is fake. And now the question, customer complain to that mall owner or shop owner that rent in that mall which selling fake stuff ?
So there is G2A shield to prevent this kind of stuff from customer complain and mall owner can kick them out of their mall or banned the seller who sell fake stuff.
As far as i know and experience from buying keys at G2A, I don't have a single problem until now. There is so many trusted seller there, and good reseller which buy from bundle games and sell it there for people who miss the bundle and got the game with cheap price.
Example case :
You can get Battleborn for $8 (from $60) at G2A, because Battleborn previously became bundle in 2K HB tier 3 for $15. Seller buy from HB, and reseller their key at G2A for reasonable price from bundle. I you miss the bundle time, there is nothing wrong to get Battleborn with cheap price at G2A.
Just pick a trusted seller which made thousand of transaction without problem, and you're fine.
Comment has been collapsed.
What kind of mall owner let's sellers stay there that get caught selling counterfeits every day? Maybe even moves them to a more visible spot because they sell so well and put free ads on the mall front about them. That mall wouldn't stay in business for very long, but in this example the mall is in fact a foreign embassy and as foreign soil totally untouchable by local law enforcement.
For some people cheap doesn't make everything right, there are morals and ethics involved. Just buy from a known legit source and you're even finer.
Comment has been collapsed.
I hated on G2A before it was cool
only buy from there if you've got a really good reason to, and the price is worth the risk involved. Never use the guard (edit: shield) thingy, it's a scam (just read the terms lol).
all in all their prices aren't actually that good anyways, if you follow prices and sales you'll get better deals. When prices are indeed good, then it may be some illegal stuff behind the curtains or region price difference exploitation
then there's ethics, it's a grey market. If you care the slightest about the game company then don't use the grey market.
Comment has been collapsed.
15,413 Comments - Last post 3 minutes ago by Channel28
13 Comments - Last post 36 minutes ago by Chris76de
73 Comments - Last post 54 minutes ago by romana1994
1,341 Comments - Last post 1 hour ago by devotee
2,067 Comments - Last post 2 hours ago by Wok
103 Comments - Last post 3 hours ago by cartcollector
46,826 Comments - Last post 7 hours ago by FranckCastle
5 Comments - Last post 2 minutes ago by samwise84
84 Comments - Last post 6 minutes ago by Choutas
595 Comments - Last post 8 minutes ago by callmeBG
800 Comments - Last post 51 minutes ago by Mdk25
1,636 Comments - Last post 53 minutes ago by Mdk25
43 Comments - Last post 1 hour ago by Exodust
65 Comments - Last post 1 hour ago by Andrewski
your opinions? buy there or not to buy?
EDIT: what about Kinguin? should these reseller site operate on licenses market?
Comment has been collapsed.