I just voted on rep on Steamtrades, and saw two threads of arguments about this. Apparently Humblebundle didn't show Borderlands the PreSequel as being region-locked, for some, and they traded it away as non-locked. In some cases, the one who owned the game thought it was the responsibility of the person who was receiving the game to know whether the game would be region locked. One of them trading it away had a disclaimer on their trade page saying "I am in Asia and will not be held responsible for any locks outside of Asia."

Now, personally, I wouldn't ever trade with that person, mainly because that's a pretty crappy disclaimer, and because I'm not in Asia. However, someone did, got a region locked game, and didn't feel the blanket disclaimer really holds weight since the trader didn't say that the game itself was region locked. Personally, I agree -- I believe it's up to the trader to say if a game is region locked. A blanket statement doesn't really make sense.

My point is, this is something that probably should be a bullet point on the voting page - should you give someone negative rep if they give you a region-locked game, expecting you to know that it was region locked, and therefore not trade for it?

6 years ago

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Whose responsibility is it to know if a game is region locked?

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The person who is trading the game away
The person who is receiving the game

I was under the impression that the person who is trading the game away is the one privy to the info on if it is region locked or not, and thus it's their responsibility to divulge that information?

6 years ago
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Same. But going by those rep arguments, apparently there is some confusion.

6 years ago
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The only confusion is from shady traders who are fine with trading the game to a person who can't play it.

6 years ago
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If he trades the game as ROW, he should deliver a ROW key, doesn't matter what he knows or doesn't know.

6 years ago
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The argument was that it wasn't the trader's responsibility to know one way or the other, due to a blanket statement that said "I am not responsible for any region locked games that are locked to regions not Asia" on their trade thread.

6 years ago
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For me it is the responsibility of the one who trades the game away.
In the rare cases I had region locked games, I always made sure to clearly state that those keys were restricted to a specific country or region.

6 years ago
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Same. And if I ever made a mistake, I always figured I'd just offer equal or slightly better value from my other stuff. But the argument in one case was that they didn't know it was region locked, so they shouldn't have to offer anything.

6 years ago
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I agree the person trading away is responsible but isn't saying "I am in Asia and will not be held responsible for any locks outside of Asia." equivalent to saying asia locked? Anyone not in asia that doesn't check before hand to make sure there aren't any locks for the game in question is at fault in this case.

6 years ago
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Well, like I originally said, I just wouldn't trade with that person. I live in the US, so that's not a chance I"m willing to take, especially since the person who doesn't get the key in the first place isn't necessariliy privvy to that informaiton at all. There are keys out there for games that are region locked, and keys for the same games that aren't. It does happen.

6 years ago
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Then again, in Roman law: ignorantia facti excusat, that is if they traded the key as ROW convinced that it is ROW, then they should be excused. In fact, any agreement made under a mistaken understanding of the facts is voidable. So yes, they should be excused BUT also they should return the key they traded for, as the agreement is void. Won't be that easy if they already redeemed it...

6 years ago
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Caveat Emptor

6 years ago
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Yeah, but in this case it's a barter, also this rule assumes that the buyer is able to inspect the item before agreeing to buy, which cannot be fulfilled in the case of a steam key.

But ultimately in this specific case I'm leaning towards opinion that a disclaimer like "I am in Asia and will not be held responsible for any locks outside of Asia" + the ability to check in steamdb that there are indeed packages region-locked to Asian countries is quite enough to move the responsibility over to the receiver. He took a risk, he burned himself, case closed. Above I was answering to the more general question from the poll.

6 years ago
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my opinion is that generally it is the seller's responsibility to notify the buyer of region issues, which is how I voted in the poll.
But, there's always a risk when trading

6 years ago
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I was unaware that there was a place that you could check. That adds an interesting wrinkle, but not everyone knows that.

6 years ago
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https://steamdb.info/app/261640/subs/
there are packages like:
Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel (RU/CIS)
Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel (IN)
Borderlands: The Pre-Sequel (Asia)
so the region-lock is quite obvious coupled with that disclaimer

6 years ago
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That is a good tool, but you still have to know that steamdb.info exists. I suppose if you expect your trade partners to find that info out for themselves (I still think that burden is on the one who owns the key) then you could link steamdb.info with a quick explanation.

6 years ago
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By all means you can expect your trade partners to know all about steam keys. From the legal* point of view barter of steam keys is a symmetrical transaction where both sides are equal partners and equal participants of the market. It's totally different than a company<>consumer relationship. Many of the consumer-protecting rules do not apply here.

Then of course is the matter of decency. If the trader's focus is on satisfaction of both sides, they should do their best to balance any information asymmetry and make sure that the other side is fully aware of the facts. If only to avoid complaints and negative feedback...

(*) of course it can vary from country to country but usually not that much.

6 years ago
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How can one possibley "return" a key? Even if you can't redeem it, you can trade it as a region-locked key.

6 years ago
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It's a pain in the ass. If you request a gift link from humble bundle it warns you who can't activate it. If you request a key it doesn't give you any warning. But even the warnings from gift links aren't reliable as they sometimes don't match the actual restrictions on the key because apparently some publishers can't be bothered to give Humble Bundle the right information. And other official sellers might be quite good at giving the right information (Bundle Stars) or not give a shit (GMG).

Due to the complexity of these issues traders should be open, honest, understanding and mature with each other about the problems that may arise. But that isn't actually going to happen any time soon...

6 years ago
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In my experience Bundle Stars is rather bad with their information regarding which games can or cannot be activated here in Germany. Not sure how good they are when it comes to region locks concerning RU/CIS and such.

6 years ago
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I haven't had any problems with them. If there is an issue with Germany I wasn't previously aware of it.

6 years ago
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They tend to say a game can't be activated here even though it can be. And not only by using VPN, but games that can be activated normally. That often leads to people excluding Germany from the GA they create for such games, because Bundle Stars placed a (needless) warning on their page.

6 years ago
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I actually had noticed they will list a few countries as locked because games perhaps aren't meant to be sold there because of legal/licensing issues but the key isn't in fact restricted. It was mostly anime games that had their own distribution deals in Japan that I had noticed. They aren't the only company to do that. I hadn't previously realised there was a significant issue with Bundle Stars and Japan. I think that comes back round to my original point - it's all a pain in the ass and people should be prepared to talk to each other and be reasonable.

6 years ago
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The person who is the seller IMO.
Caveat Emptor is often cited but that is a bad excuse.
Using that benefits shady practices and disregards the efforts by people who try to be fair and honest in their discriptions and who want a level playing field for seller and buyer alike.
Edit: The example above: The vendor is just too lazy to check the product they are offering and is trying to shirk off their responsibility with a global disclaimer. As little effort done as possible.

6 years ago*
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In some cases, the one who owned the game thought it was the responsibility of the person who was receiving the game to know whether the game would be region locked. One of them trading it away had a disclaimer on their trade page saying "I am in Asia and will not be held responsible for any locks outside of Asia."

Now, personally, I wouldn't ever trade with that person, mainly because that's a pretty crappy disclaimer, and because I'm not in Asia. However, someone did, got a region locked game, and didn't feel the blanket disclaimer really holds weight since the trader didn't say that the game itself was region locked. Personally, I agree -- I believe it's up to the trader to say if a game is region locked. A blanket statement doesn't really make sense.

This.. is actually a really simple scenario to sort out, at its basic principle.
The person trading the potentially region-locked game has the obligation to clarify that the game is or may be region-locked, and that tradees should be aware of that fact. If the trader doesn't offer that disclaimer, then they accept full obligation for the region locking and of offering equivalent replacement. After all, they offered a product and were unable to deliver the product that was indicated.
If they do offer that disclaimer, then responsibility lies with the tradee, who failed to properly consider the circumstances of the purchase.

It's the exact same legalities and considerations that go into purchases and trades through any other medium. There's really nothing special about approaching the matter on Steamtrades- obligation for details is on the person offering, obligation for reading details is on the person taking.
It's why I can get (and have gotten) a refund on a purchase which mislabeled console compatibility, or a refund on a purchase which mislabeled quantity of products in a batch purchase, or so forth- if terms weren't met, then fault is on the seller. If I simply misread or "brain-farted" or so forth, fault is on me.

If it's in the middle ground, where the disclaimer wasn't entirely clear, just decide if there was enough detailed offered that the tradee should have known to ask for more details. If so, then favor the trader. If not, favor the tradee.

Now, putting aside general practices for a moment, the fact is that anyone participating in a trading-based interaction who has concern that their product may be region-locked should most certainly offer their product first. For this particular scenario, you've got someone offering too-ambigious phrasing, refusing to go first, and apparently refusing compensation. Regardless of whether scam was initially intended, the trader clearly ended up scamming the tradee by the end of the matter (based on the interpretation I got off the data you provided). A negative reputation mark against the trader should definitely stand until it's clarified that some attempt at compensation or refund was made.
After all, when considering what reputation marks we upvote and downvote, we have to consider "If this mark is removed, would it potentially hide a pattern of inappropriate behaviors"? Our obligation on reputation marks is foremost to sustain any reasonable concerns with functional premises. As far as functional premises go, "the trader had a shitty demeanor during the trade" is reason enough to sustain a negative review. The only requirement for a reputation mark is that it relates directly to a trade; so long as the tradee has functional and clearly explained grounds for discontent, the downvote should, as a general rule, stand. [In this case, with a poorly explained disclaimer, not ensuring the situation was handled well in the trade itself by offering clarification or to trade first, and an unwillingness to sort out the matter offers quite a fair number of functional grounds for discontent, even if the trader was sunshiny and pleasant all the way through.]

6 years ago*
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