Now I feel the urge to know why the mace was developed...
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If Mount and Blade taught me something is that blunt goes well against plated armor. And you can make prisoners.
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Yeah, I know it doesn't work like that in real life, it was a just a joke about M&B mechanics.
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It should by the way be noted that leather armour is quite hotly debated among historians. There is really very little historical evidence of leather armour (as we imagine it at least) being used, and the main argument against leather armour is the fact that something like a gambeson (or similar) would in fact not only be cheaper & easier to make, but would protect you better. There are a few pieces of leather "armour" that has survived to this day, but they seem to be very ornate and might have been used mainly for show (and not on the battlefield). Then again, there are historians who do believe that hardened leather armour was used, and leather could be used in other pieces of armour (like say laminar armour).
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Good against armour. Top heavy and strikes with a lot of force, making it better at hurting someone in heavy armour than a sword, and you don't run the risk of getting it "stuck" in your opponent, like say a crow's beak (which was also a weapon developed to deal with armour). The flanges are there to help it "bite in" and not just glance off when you hit someone in armour, but of course, if you hit someone without armour, it will still seriously injure the person (but not as badly as say a sword).
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Couldn't it still get stuck because of the flanges?
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Indeed. The spikes you see on some worked more or less the same. Sometimes you had a larger spike at the top that you could use for thrusting, but the spikes on the sides were not meant to go through the armour. Basically any bits "sticking out" worked like the flanges. The flanges just turned out to be quite good at doing what they were supposed to do.
On a side note, in some languages they don't really differentiate between "mace" & "club" (as a mace is simply a glorified club), and in some (like Swedish) they call it a "war club".
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Plus don't forget that mace is an incredibly easy to use weapon. Easy to make in big amounts, no real need to sharpen it - the simpler versions are just iron globes on a stick that's fantastic to smash in one's skull, while little strenght or skill (to control the blow) is needed :
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Indeed. The only problem with them is that they are short. While you don't need to worry about "edge alignment" (as with a sword), you need to be able to get close enough to hit your opponent, without getting hit in the process (something that I quickly learnt when doing a bit of martial arts, several years ago, was just how big of an advantage reach actually is, if I can create a "danger zone" around me that is bigger than yours, I have a huge advantage, the same does apply when you have a weapon of this nature, though there are a few other things to consider as well, like shields & armour)
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dane_Axe
Vikings are always more awesome
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Warhammers for singe-handed use were quite short as well
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no reason, just a update version of a big wooden stick
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They were good against well armored opponents. While swords would have problems against armor because they couldn't penetrate it easily, maces could break opponent's bones if you hit him hard enough with a mace regardless of what kind of armor he was using.
They were also cheap and easy to make. You didn't need to be very skilled at weapon-making to make a useful mace.
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Are you sure it was a for real documentary, and not something like this?
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Damn you Q_Q
Why nobody ever thinks of arachnophobic budgies?
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No, TLC just shows programs about fat people getting married (yes, they have a program like that, I'm not making it up), rich people getting married, rich people having nannies, or people getting hurt while having sex (I think that sums up all the shows I've come across when I've zapped past the channel) and I don't have Discovery channel.
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rich people having nannies
Are those nannies men in disguise, serial killers or at least women trying to steal a baby?
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I know about those shows since they recently started airing them in my country (some DVB network bought the rights), and the amount of crap they broadcast is insane.
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We did actually have a channel that mainly aired at least passable documentaries for a while. But the last 3 times I've zapped past that channel it has just been some show about men getting hit in the balls (I think it's one of those "Funny home video" shows, that decided to focus on people actually getting hurt, and what hurts more than getting hit in the balls?). I'm not saying that it was a great channel to begin with, most of the documentaries were cheap WW2 ones, but it was at least not painful to have it on in the background.
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I mean, Russia loves to talk about all its casualties and how the West didn't really help them (which, to an extent, is a legitimate argument if perhaps ignoring the major issues with the Soviet government's pre- and post-wartime policies which exacerbated the situation further) so they do actually tend to be somewhat accurate, if a bit overly patriotic as all nationalist documentaries are want to be. Not entirely accurate, mind you, but very few documentaries are.
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Soon on TLC: Rich fat people getting married and then getting hurt while having sex with their nannies.
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If you're looking for documentaries, I'd suggest Netflix or Amazon. Good stuff as pretty much fled the cable freak show line up. And the worthwhile series are better consumed through a streaming service.
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Dunno, here they started broadcasting a mix of TLC, Discovery and History channel. Hitlers, Ayy Lmaos, pawn shops, marriages, fat people and bushdidnineeleven, all in a nice lil package.
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And the best part about those is the amount of commercial breaks that just don't happen. "Will little Billy get rescued from the well?!" 3 seconds black screen. "Billy is in a well! Will he be rescued?" Repeat every 5 minutes and every third break actually play the commercials, works perfectly.
Before I realized what is going on I was genuinely concerned that American producers think we are retarded and/or lacking short-term memory.
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I'm only into accurate documentaries such as this Law Enforcement Guide To Satanic Cults
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Well, it would seem like the creator of the thread where you asked me how I found out that someone had re-gifted ARMA:Gold closed the thread, so I'll just reply here in stead:
I just compared his won games to the games in his library. As I've previously had a win removed for exactly the same reason, I just figured that that was what was going on.
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only documentaries I watch are about food. otherwise revel in the imginationland created by you or for you (novels , games , movies..)
real life documentaries feel depressing to me..if they are inaccurate and simply defy common sense..well you already came to the conclusion
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You know, I have my doubts about the pawnshop one. It shows gunfights, and I highly doubt the cameramen would be willing to put themselves in the line of fire when a gunfight spontaneously happens in order to get a good shot, while everyone else lazily stand behind car doors (like that will stop a bullet...) and aim in the general direction of the other guys. So something tells me that they might not be entirely honest about that one
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I only watch documentaries if they involve ALIENS.
Those never fail when citing sources... for example, the pyramids were made by the Covenant, the Citadel was made by the Protheans (although some scholars say it may have been the Reapers), the Russian "Roswell-like accident" was a Ceph dropship, etc.
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That's what I expected.
Under the category “Slipped”, we find The History Channel. As TVTrope comments:
[Their] programming now consists of roughneck-focused reality shows (Ice Road Truckers, Ax Men) and conspiracy theory “documentaries” about UFOs, the Bible Code, ghosts, Atlantis, Nostradamus, and the end of the world, earning the network the derisive nickname “The Hysterical Channel”. Heck, at least the “Hitler Channel,” as they used to be known (back when everything was about either World War II, Nazis or The American Civil War), was actual history.
Source RIP The History Channel
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I've looked into it in the past (this is not the first time I heard this very thing being mentioned). There is actually a source making a mention of it. A source from the 19th century (in other words, not a contemporary one), but it was D&D that "popularized" this myth, as the source is a rather obscure one, and it's unclear if Gygax knew of this, or if it (like the weight of weapons) were just there for the sake of balance. To my knowledge, there are no other "serious" sources making any mentions of this.
Debunking the myth is actually quite easy though, even if we don't look at the weapon itself. There were fighting clerical orders, they used swords (and many other weapons). Their weapons evolved at the same pace and in the same direction as those used by other soldiers.
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See my reply above. There are no known historical sources that mention priests not being allowed to use swords because they could not draw blood, there were fighting clerical orders that used swords, a mace could easily draw blood so the whole idea fails on its very base premise and people during the middle ages were not stupid, they could tell that using a weapon like say a mace would not stop you from drawing blood. Also, there are mentions of priests using weapons that did draw blood (see for an example the accounts of Anna Comnena)
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are you a historian or an expert in medieval history? you are basically saying there is a source from the 19th Century (from 1800 something) but still, D&D were first to come up with this!?
I don't have a masters in history, but I have studied history at a university level. More specifically I studied the history of ideas and that deals with things like philosophical & scientific progress through the ages.
And what I was saying is that it's unclear exactly where Gygax got the idea from, just that it's quite likely that he made it for the sake of balance, but that there was a previous source mentioning it. Luckily when I was looking for it, I found this writeup on the very same topic that we are talking about.
I just said that maybe D&D picked up a historical fact - "the mace was developed because priests would need a weapon that would not draw blood".
Well, this is something that we know is entirely incorrect though,. If we look at historical accounts, we can find out how and why the mace was developed (it was developed as a means to deal with heavy armour). Maces, and other "armour breakers" were also developed alongside armour, so following the lineage of the two gives you a good idea of their development
they burnt wiches
As opposed to today, where we just throw stones at them, use them as an argument for why our society is falling, or as a reason for forbidding fantasy literature in our school libraries? Stupid people have always existed. But it's dangerous to equate lack of knowledge with stupidity.
planet earth was as flat as a plate
Myth, it was in fact known that the earth was round. This wikipedia article basically says the same thing as two books I have on the subject of science and ideas in the middle ages (so I'm not going to translate what they say to English, but they are called "Harmoni eller Konflikt" and "Idéerna historia".
We did actually see a good amount of scientific progress during the middle ages. It was obviously slower than today (for several reasons, including difficulty of communication, and the percentage of the work force that could not spend its time "thinking" about thing).
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They knew that hitting someones skull with a rock, or throwing one at someones skull, could draw blood, same goes for a simple stick (hell, even cavemen knew that), so how could they possibly think that a mace wouldn't draw blood? Makes no sense
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That's amazing. Can I get the information on where you saw that and what it was called? I think it might be a great tool for teaching critical thinking to people (most of whom won't know the first thing about medieval weapons).
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here it is if you're still interested. Compare the Godendag at 19:13 with a contemporary illustration (it's the one at the back that uses the Godendag) or this modern day replica
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By the way, what else did they get wrong? I know a bit about medieval weapons, but not enough to fact check most of what they're talking about here.
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The way they were showing fights were not even close to how it would have been in real life, they were going for the Hollywood style of medieval fights, where everyone made huge swings (like a Dark Souls boss), that you could easily read. They used the term "man at arms" incorrectly (claiming that a "man at arm" was not a nobleman, while in fact the term is a rather wide one, and would include "knights" as well as low-born but well equipped and trained soldiers). They were talking about the flail, which is one of those hotly contested weapons (was it actually used to any large degree? It would seem like more and more historians are leaning towards "no", so a mention of it would at least have been nice). They are doing a direct comparison between a mallet & a warhammer, though those were in fact very different (and the mallet would not actually be used in combat, other than in a pinch). Their depiction of the "Goedendag" seem to be entirely incorrect, but I don't know for certain as it's a weapon that I'm not all that familiar with, but I can find no sources that has one that looks even remotely like the one used in that video, but I can find plenty that looks nothing like it.
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Thank you for the detailed info.
By the way, in searching around I did find mentions in non-D&D sources of the claim about priests. It appears to be older than D&D, though it appears to rest on very scant evidence. But I'm not sure about any of that--that's just the results of some Googling.
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Yeah, I indirectly linked to it above (It's this one, right?). The book is from 1834, so it's not a contemporary source, and it does not cite any sources. It also has other questionable elements. It does mention how the author came to its conclusion though:
Otho, the bishop at Norman invasion, in the tapestry worked by Matilda the queen of William the Conqueror, is represented with a mace in his hand, for the purpose, that when he dispatched an antagonist, he might not spill blood, but only break his bones!
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It wasn't that specifically, but that may well be where it came from. It was something else pointing back to the priest from the Bayeux Tapestry. And yeah, that doesn't seem very trustworthy. Bracketing other reasons for doubt, that one priest had a scruple hardly seems like enough to base a general claim on.
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Made me spend an hour reading on maces and related weaponry...
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Hm, I don't think the GM I had back when i was playing D&D would actually give me a +5 weapon with a build like this. Heck, in the year long campaign that we had, I think we had about +5 in total, between all of the players. So no powergaming for me :(
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The spiked chain powergamer is the bane of every DM
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Ugh, thinking maces don't draw blood. Maces were used heavily because unlike swords they don't blunt after use (though early weapons all had some durability issues) and because they can, if swung hard enough, such as from horseback, dent armor and cause serious injury to even well armored opponents, while a sword would be much more likely to break or glance off.
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While early weapons were indeed mainly blunt ones (not counting spears, those were always common), once people started learning how to work metal properly, cutting weapons were starting to see more use. We can see these in the Egyptian bronze weapons (bronze did become blunt very easily as it was relatively soft, yet they kept using bronze swords). Maces like the ones we have during the middle ages were more of a response to other weapons in that general size category being ineffective against armour. It was not because swords got blunt with use (of course they did, but it was not the main reason why people used maces when going up against armoured opponents)
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As much as I know, it is actually true that the "maces" were made not for killing but mostly for "harming" people.
It can be wrong but...
In the mediavel ages where the armors were used, you can see that the armors were actually never ment be " handy" in a way. They were heavy, really heavy, including the chain west you had to wear with in it we are talking about 25 to 35kg more than your body weight and plus the sword.
You can also see that in theese times most of the swords were actually " 2 handed mega swords" with wich you actually never could cut trough "gently" but more the make the opponent suffer.
and in real fact that on these times the armors and heavy weaponry was used was that "it was not a polite thing to kill " noble-men". It was more efficient to make him stop fighting, capture him and ask for rensom.
Well that's what I heard
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You are correct about it not being a good idea to kill noblemen, but the reasoning was generally a bit different. A nobleman was worth money, if you could capture it, you could ransom it back to its family. And a mace was meant to harm people in armour, something that a sword had issues with. It was not designed as a non-lethal weapon, in fact it was made because other weapons were not lethal enough.
While armour was not light, it was generally not that cumbersome to use. If it was made for you, it would not limit your mobility much, and you could even swim in it! (Here is a video of someone doing some light acrobatics in one, and here is a slightly more serious video) A set of "full plate" (as we would call it today) would weigh roughly 10 kg less than the weight that you listed (so in the 15-25kg region). Of course, an ill fitting armour would encumber you, but you would not actually use ill fitting armour.
Most swords would be sidearms, and you would preferably have a weapon with more reach. While you had what's clumsily is referred to as "greatswords" (i.e. a zweihänder), those were not super common on the battlefield. They were also a lot lighter than most people would imagine them being (~1,8-3kg), and by the time they did see prominent use in battle the medieval battlefield was quite different from how people tend to imagine them (they were mostly going up against pike formations, and those were usually not as heavily armoured as "knights" (knights is a problematic term, but I think most people understand what I'm talking about when i say "knights").
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Because if one documentary is bad, they all must be bad.
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and i always though it was because of common sense, you couldn't really hurt a knight with sword, (there was some french king in full plate armor which was dismounted by peasants and they were attacking him with pitchforks for some minutes in herd and he only had a few bruises after this) but blunt weapons were doing nasty things with armor and internal organs
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Because when they start quoting Dungeons & Dragons as "historical fact", it just makes me sad.
Had a documentary on in the background about medieval warfare while working, and they talked about how the mace was developed because priests would need a weapon that would not draw blood. That's the reason given in Dungeons & Dragons for why Clerics can't use swords, but instead use blunt weapons. If anyone making the documentary would have just considered the simple fact that if you hit someone with a mace, they're actually very likely to start bleeding (and they were even showing a flanged mace while talking about it, with really nasty "pointy ends"), they would have realized that their sources were questionable at best. Sadly, this is not the only piece of Dungeons & Dragons fact that has become "real" to some (try talking about the weight of swords & axes with a D&D player...), but I would have hoped that they would have enough common sense as to at least make sure that they're not quoting a game in a documentary (not that it was the only thing they got wrong, but it was the most obvious case of lazy fact checking I've heard in quite a while outside the internet).
Anyway, related ga (though not 100% accurate, it's at least several times better than that documentary)
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