Region locked bundle list may well be needed for each region then and maybe even have it so if you earn CV in region locked give aways you can only access higher levels for your own region
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A very popular suggestions that simply would not work.
It´s very easy to abuse. Create a group with members of your region and do the giveaways this way....
Of course someone could come up with the suggestion, ok let´s count group-cv/levels only for those groups
you are joining giveaways....but believe me....this storm after a suggestions like this, nobody could survive...not even a frog....ooops
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Well I have no idea what to do as a gamer i'm already not happy with how a game may cost $50 USD in the is USA and the very same game can cost as much as $96USD in the UK and 150+ USD in Australia.
So now If i buy games at the UK price which are always more USA price i get CV for the USA price as it now that region locked games are making more games hit the bundle list it's kind of pointless to do anything but give away bundle games.
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If it´s for you pointless....ok....but why should it be for others? Everyone has his own motivations.....I just give for fun, i like to give games that people have wishlisted some are bundled some are not.
And sometimes even people offered me to enter just to get the 5 entries full....I told them in those cases it´is not necessary for me.
I'm recognizing that over time my level raised a bit...but if my goal would be "leveling" I would clearly do other giveaways.
For me a higher level of the user is no indication of his "worth" to win or not win. I only set relatively low levels, to exclude a bit those that gave away a couple of free games 2 years ago and now do nothing, but winning. And people that gave away sometimes a bundle game easily reach those levels....so what.
If for e.g. the bundle-case would be totally different and 80% of the users would be instantly 2-3 level higher....maybe creators of the giveaways also raise the settings. Keep in mind, thats up to the users that setup a giveaway what limitations they have in level and group....and those know all (they should), how the level system works and that maybe some gets it easier some harder.
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There are restricted giveaways for region locked games already. It wouldn't be hard to lock the remaining giveaways according to the user's country and it'd solve this problem.
Russians wouldn't be able to pick the giveaway region, it'd be automatic, if you're Russian you only create RU-CIS giveaways for non-bundled games (and by non-bundled games I mean games that weren't part of actual bundles: Humble Bundle, Groupees, Indie Gala, Bundle Stars, etc). There's no way for Russians to exploit prices if this solution was implemented.
One example. The Talos Principle is 90%+ off in Russia but not in the rest of the world. So The Talos Principle should be added to the 90% off game list for Russia only. If Russians were forced to create RU-CIS giveaways for non-bundled games (games that weren't part of actual bundles: Humble Bundle, Groupees, Indie Gala, Bundle Stars, etc) they would get CV value for their giveaways of The Talos Principle.
I'm Portuguese so I would be forced to create giveaways for the EU 2 region. Since The Talos Principle was never 90% off in EU2 I'd get full CV. This seems to be the most fair solution imo, and it's easy to implement
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please stop just copy and paster your "super duper great idea" again and again. It´s still possible to abuse...easly.
I create a CIS-region steam-account via vpn, buy there restricted gifts there and gave them away via my main account in a group with CIS-region entrants.....
and just in case...if you say: "ok you don´t get full cv if the winner is from a cis-region"....than please be honest an suggest regional-steamgifts-sites, country by country :-(
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VPNs are forbidden in both Steam gifts and Steam. That's a bannable ofense.
Cheers
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I´m talking about abuse not about what people can do within the rules.
And btw, they would still not have to use the vpn on steamgifts, just for steam and the buying-account.
i don´t even have to use a vpn, i only need a nice friend in a cis-region that buys the gifts.....not even a violation of any tos
Tell me if you find any reasonable solution that is not abusable, and not have been abused in the past and i'm listening again.
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You can still trade for region locked copies. This was done earlier and will be done now, if people can profit from it.
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noj "may not work" like onk suggested - it will not work and there's a proof for that ;p before introducing of region locked GAs to SG there were simply groups for residents of only specific countries and gifting happened there. Mods were trying to fight it, but could only delete GAs which specifically mentioned they are region locked in GA description - no mention in description = no reason for deleting.
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Don't forget that Steam regional prices are based on how much the money really worth in that country.
Lets say I pay $20 for a game after the currency conversion, and you $35.
But the average salary in Brazil is way lower.
I'm paying less in a simple point of view, but the same in the whole picture. Also, the unbundled games people from Brazil win are also cheaper here.
There would be no reason I couldn't join a higher level giveaway from US if you paid $35 and I could pay $20 in brazilian store.
$20 has the almost the same buying value in Brazil than $35 has in US. The same logic for Russia.
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Regional prices are not just a reflection of buying power at all companies set them at what they think people pay, sure spending power makes up a part of the price but most of the time if a price is higher then difference in local taxes it's price gouging.
Like when EA tried to treat the Euro as a 1:1 ratio with the USD and they tried the same thing with the USD and the GBP greed. Now i'm there is only one retailer that has fair global pricing that I know of and hopefully they can grow their market share and other retails might follow suit.
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Hm, ok, I will research more on that. At least from Brazilian prices point of view, I think its fair, I mean, $1 is R$4. If I were going to pay the simple conversion for Fallout 4, as an example, I would pay R$400.
With that money I could buy groceries for 1 month for a house of 2/3 people. You know what I mean?
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Yeah I totally get that and for the price of some of these games I could take my wife out for a meal or get a weeks food shopping I totally get that what i earn a year would be considered a lot of money in other countries but then the cost of all my basic shopping items is a lot more.
Here in the UK up until about 40 years ago the average family spent something like 50% of its household income on food but as global production increases we were able to import it for a lot less. Now don't get me wrong if my wife didn't work the Money I make would not be enough to support our family but in another country it would be enough that my wife didn't have to work and we'd have lots of money left over as disposable income.
Global pricing should be fairer then it is i guess is my big thing if a game were $10 USD in the USA then i'd expect it to be 20% more expensive in the UK due to taxes rather then marked up by 80% like in some cases i've seen.
I'm not really very sure how weaker curacies are traded but when publishers try to convert 1 USD to 1 Euro or 1 GBP they are really screwing people over.
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Not quite.
Because of the few who try to abuse the system, we have to place restrictions on everyone. The result is less flexibility, but nobody is "screwed over."
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Damn first game I payed the full price, never doing that again
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There are restricted giveaways for region locked games already. It wouldn't be hard to lock the remaining giveaways according to the user's country and it'd solve this problem
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then just make a group and invite RU-CIS users only to join it then give away normal GAs there, receive full CV while in fact gifting locked gifts.
Ort locking regions alltogether = prevent users from making ROW GAs and give them lesser value for fully priced ROW games.
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It's not perfect, there are no perfect solutions but it's better than the current system. Russians can create RU-CIS groups and take advantage of the 10 times lower prices already. You wouldn't pick the giveaway region, it'd be automatic, if you're Russian you only create RU-CIS giveaways for non-bundled games. Problem solved
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they can, but they get nothoing out of it, as RU-CIS Ga gives same value as ROW GA.
And tens of thousands of users getting a way to get tens of thousands of fake Value? yeah - indeed much "better" solution.
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How can they get tens of thousands of dollars of fake value? I thought prices in Russia were 10 times lower because they were poor? If they're poor they can't afford thousands of dollars in games (even if the prices are 10 times lower, getting tens of thousands of dollars in CV requires spending thousands of dollars)
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Plus idc if they can reach higher levels easily as long as they're giving games away. If some Russians try to exploit the system they can be blacklisted, that's a wonderful use of the blacklist feature. Problem solved
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erm nope it's not - there are 120k Rusisan SG users only. Not to mention all the other CIS countries - it will be like 200-250k. and you have 1000 slots on your Blacklist, not to mention thousands of regifters/nonactivators and other rulebreakers you may want to BL as well. Indeed - great and wonderful solution.
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first of all, if their games are let's say 3 times cheaper then theres 90% sale (so still not bundle level) so game is 10 times cheaper getting 1000$ value costs 33$. getting 30000$ costs 990$. so getting ten thousands of Value diesn't require even 1 thousand of dollars :D:
And not all Russians are poor, they simply have much bigger differences than the rest of the world. for example - IT specialist working in big city will earn aboiut as much as he would in not-the-richest western countries, or comparable to middle-european countries, while poor farmer from some village will be much poored compared to farmers in central europe not to mention wester one. He will earn 10-20 times less than them. So while on average they earnings may be lower than rest of the world (but not 10 times lower like you said - just 50% compared to central Europe) it doesn't mean that all russians will earn that much less.
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I've never written that Russians earn 10 times less, I wrote that their prices are 10 times lower. With 10 times lower prices they still need to spend a thousand of dollars to earn a ten of thousand of dollars in CV, it's simple Maths. 10000$/10 = 1000$. In fact they need to spend more than a thousand of dollars to earn a ten of thousand of dollars in CV because there are bundled games in Russia too.
Plus, like I wrote Russians wouldn't choose their giveaway region... If they're Russians they can only create RU-CIS giveaways for non-bundled games (by non-bundled games I mean games that weren't part of actual bundles: Humble Bundle, Groupees, Indie Gala, Bundle Stars, etc). There's no way for them to exploit prices if this solution was implemented.
One example. The Talos Principle is 90%+ off in Russia but not in the rest of the world. So The Talos Principle should be added to the 90% off game list for Russia only. If Russians were forced to create RU-CIS giveaways for non-bundled games (games that weren't part of actual bundles: Humble Bundle, Groupees, Indie Gala, Bundle Stars, etc) they would get CV value for their giveaways of The Talos Principle.
I'm Portuguese so I would be forced to create giveaways for the EU 2 region. Since The Talos Principle was never 90% off in EU2 I'd get full CV. This seems to be the most fair solution imo, and it's easy to implement
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first of all - your prices are also 10 times lower - each time you buy 90% sale. And all my other calculations remain in place - with 90% or more discounts together with 2-3 times lower base prices means that tens of thousands of value can be obtained with less than 1000 $, with 330$ 10000$ Value is doable. All my calculations considering non-bundle games only - if they would make ROW GAs of RUCIS games in RUCIS-only group.
If they're Russians they can only create RU-CIS giveaways for non-bundled games - why? Cannot Russian buy ROW copy from GMG or other keyshop? or trade for ROW gift? What you propose basically removes all RU/CIS users from participating in open SG parts like making puzzles or participating in forum events, Prevent them from participating in any non-russian GA group, basically strip them from most SG community activities just in the name of your own convinience.
And for your example - and Russian buys this Talos Principle ROW key to make a group GA or puzzle Ga or anything. He pays western price for it and you want to prohibit himk from giving it away (or force him to give ROW key as RU-CIS GA) just because of... what again?
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Here's what I'd like to know regarding this... exactly how many coupons were there? And how many could you get per account?
Then you have to subtract exactly how many were Russian only, then again subtract those that actually wanted to use it for themselves... It just doesn't seem like the few left over are really that big of an "exploit"
It's like having a store glitch that sells a few hundred to a couple thousand, it's such a small number, it shouldn't effect the game's status.
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there were couple of thousands of coupons. And you could grab 1 per account, but Alienware account are not bound to anything but mail and don't ban multiuses from same IP - so you could get multiple coupons with multiple email adresses.
And for your another point - only few hundreds/thousands - lesser known bundle sites (not like humble, but for example groupees) rarely sell more than few thousands of bundles. really small like Flying Bundle, One More Bundle etc sell just few hundred bundles max - yet we bundle these games and it's fine. but here it's not fine because "few hundreds is such a small number..."?
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In those cases though you'd have to cross reference every site and every bundle... and I'd be willing to bet those smaller sites rarely (if ever) get anything that hasn't seen a IG, BS, or HB bundle first?
My point is, it's basically being bundled over what? 200-500 copies max? and I think even that number is high, since we are only speaking of Russian buys WITH the coupon.
I just think it's a panic over nothing.
At what point is it too negligible a number? What if I could get 200 copies of Fallout 4 for free? I could really have my friends and I exploit that CV... Is it fair to everyone else to disallow give aways of it now as there were 200 free copies?
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yep, nothing really - like Hatred first time being bundled on OneMoreBundle for example ;) and it still just sold like 700-800 bundles because nearly noone heard about the site ;p
It's not panic - it's a normal process - get this - most of the games, unless featured in bundle or on big sale or unless very popular don't even get 200-500 GAs made in SG in whole history - now it's not accessible, but in SGv1 stats you could see loads of games that has been given away only 1X or 2X times. Ever. Comparing to this 200-500 copies is A LOT in SG standards.
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Course Hatred made it into a more popular one very recently, so while it may have been a good example at one time...
That second part is more why it's a shame, the rest of the SG members are less likely to make a GA even though it IS on sale, because it's now a bundled title without a wide spread bundle price.
(And Hey, I'm not even interested in the game, don't think I've ever entered one) <-- whoops, I lied, I entered one... 8 months ago.
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if you or anyone else pure reason to make a GA is to get a profit, value etc - then he/she is doing things wrong. You should make GAs for sake of making GAs - level will come along. If someone is intrested more in direct profits of GA he's about to make and will not make GA now because something is on the bundle list - maybe he should change the GA community? There are others much more P2W GA sites out there much more suited for such reasoning where one can actually gain a direct profit over his GAs ;p
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Please, lets not suggest that people don't care about CV or levels here... It's part of the "game"
And I think if it were NOT on the bundle list, we could both agree there would be more of them, and mostly NOT hailing from RU.
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people shouldn't confuse two things: "caring about cv" and "making GAs to raise cv" are different.
if there weren't level-restricted giveaways, i would say no one should pay attention to levels. but the reality on sg is that higher-level = more access to GAs.
so in the end, everyone who enters GAs cares about cv (which isn't bad or selfish, it's a useful resource on sg!).
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I agree. I think it's penalising legit gifters far more than it prevents CV exploitation.
Another thing to think about. it how cares about how the user got what they are giving it away.
But what is it worth to the majority of the people entering the GA?
I think there is much more exploitation done in private group and whitelist GAs. I think all non-public GAs should be at bundled CV.
The funny thing is the people in those groups that would complain about it are the same people saying don't create GAs for CV.
Some other things to think about
Giving away a copy of Fallout 4 to your mates is it really worth the same amount of credit as someone truly giving away Fallout 4 to anyone?
Public GA for a $5 unbundled game that attracts only 500 entries vs a Public GA for a very poplar $5 bundled game that attracts 3000 entries?
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Ok so a pretty small amount assuming that 100% of them ended up here... which wouldn't happen.
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erm - 10000 is not a small number (if we talk about SG and bundle games) - most of the bundles, even very good ones, beside Humble that is widely known don't even come close to selling 10000 copies.
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I saw 4000, not 10000...
but again, your argument seems to base that EVERY copy was not only sold in RU, but will end up here?
I'd be willing to bet my paycheck it would be less than 10% (and probably less than 5%) Now we're talking >200
Meaning someone could maybe (if they had 5+ AW accounts) get $200 CV? Again, not that impressive once you get past the first couple levels.
We obviously have differing opinions of what to be worried about. The trouble with unilateral broad cover rules/laws is that they either end up being stupid in cases or causing zealotry in others. One size just usually doesn't fit all.
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MuIIins said there were 4000 coupons when she grabber hers, not to begin with. But Doesn't matter if it was 4000, 5000 or 10000 - it's still more than most of bundle sites sell per bundle.
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and do you think EVERY budle that is being bought end up on SG?
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200 is still a lot in SG numbers - most of not bundled-to-deat, not heavy sales and not popular games never even see this number of GAs created, yet alone them all happening over a short period of time because of one sale.
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whqat does it mean how much can 1 person profit from it? based on that, since humble now has max number of purchases we shouldn't bundle anything from HB. Sure someone may get 200$ Value for just spending 6$. But what is 200$? (protip - it's about enough to boost you from lvl 3.0 to 5.0 where most of "higher lvl GAs happen). The thing is that after 1 sale or bundle or whatever there will be soon another that will also let you farm 200$ CV by spending 6$. But you wouldn't bundle it, because again "c'mon, how many can you get from it? only 200$? then again and again and all these "meaningless" values of 40$ here, 200$ there etc add up pretty quickly.
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i'm gonna concede that this talos bundling was very obfuscated since you needed a coupon from a 3rd party site.
99% of the time steam coupons don't stack with discounts, so even if people saw the alienware promo, they would dismiss it instantly.
anyway, the problem is that as soon as RU users noticed that they could spend ~$15 ($1.5 x10) and get $347 worth of cv, we would be flooded with talos GAs in no time (347cv = lv5 for the price of lv1 contribution).
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Btw its gonna be fun to see Just Cause 3 in the bundle list when it hit 66% off in India >.<
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Every game will be on the bundle list after the winter sale at this rate due to global prices being lower in some regions
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Damn Thats really cheap in my region
But I think it would take 80%, not 66% off for it to be equivalent to 95% off US price
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Either way see why we are so jelly on you guys atm :p
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Well it is according to how much a country's residents can pay. We could always get retail version of most new AAA games for ~1000 INR and now Steam reflects that. So that is extra business for Steam.
Although I'm a bit sad about the gifts being region locked as I like to make GAs from time to time and there seems to be a very small number of SG users from my region. If only Steam provided a way to buy RoW gift copies at RoW prices.
Also some games don't have prices set by their publishers and are not buyable atm.
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Is the change permanent? (Talos stays in the bundle forever)
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yes. once on bundle list - forever on bundle list. otherwise you'd just buy bundle games, don't make GAs for them just wait till they are off the list and made GA for huge profit when they are removed.
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Damn.
then just make a group and invite RU-CIS users only to join it then give away normal GAs there, receive full CV while in fact gifting locked gifts.
Double damn.
Thanks for the explanation.
/me abandons thread and try to forget the inconvenient truth.
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While I agree that you shouldn't care as much about CV as people apparently do, I still think it's kinda ridiculous to consider it bundled if it wasn't available for the majority of the world for that price.
(I do know why it's necessary, I just think it's not the ideal solution..)
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well - there were what? 10000 of soupons avaiable, so potentially up to few thousands discounted copies. Even if just a few hundreds goes to russians - so what? Middle bundle pages (not like humble, but like Groupees or IndieGala) sell max few tohusands of bundles - often as little as 2000 bundles - we bundle these games anyway. Really small bundle pages - like Flying Bundle, One More Bundle, Military Ammo Box etc - sell max few hundreds of bundles (OMB or Ammo Box had bundles with below 100 bundles sold) - we still add these games to bundle list. But we should not add Talos to Bundle list because just a few hundred-thousands ppl could use it?
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Everyone can buy Groupees bundle, they fail because they are full of crap.
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Well, the difference here is that these bundles - may it be from a small, unknown site or sites like Humble Bundle - technically are available to everyone for the same price; whether people know about them is a different question. I'm just saying that the majority of the world didn't nearly have such an extreme price like Russions. Eu1 for instance still would have had to pay 6.70€ with the coupon, while Russians payed like a dollar and 50 cents? Something like that.
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and so are russian gifts - they are technically avaiable to you - http://www.steamgifts.com/trades/search?q=Russia or any Russian friend on your friendlist.
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Yes, but only technically and not as easy to access as bundles.
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sorry but it's not like it requires some VPN, other tricks and so on. Posting a comment or adding someone on steam, while not as easy as 1-click-buy but still easy enough for anyone able to do it.
Heck - for example for underage kids it may be even easier - they don't have credit card, cannot legally have PayPal (some countries cannot have PayPal at all) - they have no ways of getting bundle games, yet they still can trade. So by your reasoning bundle gales should get unbundled and only traded bundled - because for some people trading is much more accessible than buying things online.
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I have no idea what your talking about in the second part of your comment?
Either way, I honestly don't wanna spend, or rather waste, more time on this discussion since it's pointless anyway cause we can't change anything about what we're talking about.
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there's no ideal solution, this one works as good as possible for everyone.
i know in this particular case it was really hard to notice the bundle status, it also applied to heavy bullets. people that care too much about cv should be careful and research before complaining, it's really easy to check prices.
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That's true.
I know about Heavy Bullets. Though, you know, for that game I payed like 40 cents - and that's the reason I bought it, because that's something I could afford. It is a good game with a lot of positive feedback, so I decided to give away one copy - and added the one that was originally meant for myself later on as well. I knew that I wouldn't get full CV and I'm fine with that because I payed so little money for it.
It's different with Talos though because for me it still cost 6.70€ with coupon while Russians had to pay a dollar and 50/60/70? cents.
I'm not complaining that it was added to the list, it's the right thing to do, I guess, though from my perspective it just seems ridiculous because the majority - or let's say a lot of people - still had to pay way more. I'm not sure if I can explain it that well for it to make more sense, sorry.
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I have a full group blacklisted. In that group there are 2 level 9s, 1 level 8, quite a few 6+, etc.
All those users only make group GAs while entering public GAs that have level restrictions, clearly exploiting the system, by bypassing the level restrictions, sheerly by making group GAs. If things like this weren't done (i mean adding games under these circumstances to bundle list), it would make things far, far worse. I imagine all those leechers would get level 10 asap. And yes, they're full blown leechers in my book. Much more than the guy that won 50 GAs and made 2-3. For all i know, that guy doesn't have a leg to stand on and he's not doing anything wrong nor is he circumventing the system to his benefit.
I very much prefer to cut down on all our CVs a bit, than to heavily boost the CV of some that don't deserve it.
I still think region-locked GAs shouldn't count as full CV, maybe not cut it to 15%, but some cut should be made, but hey, whole new can of worms, if 1 out of every 10 individuals that do region-locked GAs would agree with this, i'd actually be pleasantly surprised.
And no, i've not done a Talos GA, in fact i won it here recently. But my principle would still stand even if it weren't the case. I care more about how some people get their CV than i care about my own.
I've had games i gave away ROW gift copies that were on the bundle list, if i cared so much about it, i'd go and trade it and give a non-bundled game instead.
I recently overpaid from some previously bundled games just because i wanted to add them to my birthday train, since they were games i thought were really good and wanted to give away at least once and hadn't yet (Bastion comes to mind). Again... if CV was my concern, i certainly wouldn't have done it.
CV should be treated as a small bonus, not the major issue for giving.
After all, why do the people that got to level 10 ages ago keep on giving, if all they cared about was CV?
I think people need to get quite a bit less bent out of shape over the little CV they lose here and there and focus a bit more on the actual detrimental effect to this site of having certain undeserving individuals get to certain high levels, just saying...
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CV should be treated as a small bonus, not the major issue for giving.
I agree. With pretty much everything you just said.
I guess my problem here is that if I had bought a copy to give away like I originally planned because I thought it seems like a great game is that I would have payed more than I would have been credited for, just because it cost $1.70 for Russians. Like I said, I agree that CV should just be a small bonus to giving things away, but if you can't actually really afford giving things away currently like me, it just would have been great to actually get at least what you payed for the game in CV. I don't know how to explain it. Or maybe I actually just am too focused on CV. I don't know.
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I think you've explained yourself fine. :)
Just clarify one little part for me, if you don't mind, that part i didn't get entirely.
If you have a copy sitting on your inventory right now to give away, then yes, it sucks a bit... :/
And it's easy for me to say this, but you'll be the exception. Unlucky exception, but hey... would you be less sad if just the day before you decide to give it away, it somehow gets added to a tier 2 Humble Bundle? And would you blame SG for it? ;)
Or would you be less sad if you had gift copies or bundle keys waiting to be gifted that all of the sudden were the subject of free mass key dump?
Sucks, but hey, not SG's fault. And surely something that has happened to a lot of other folks, myself included. ;)
If you on the other hand do not have a copy in this exact moment and were planning to get one (which is what most people are complaining), then both you and them are left with 2 choices and none of them is unfair imo:
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If you/they care so much about CV... just get something else. Problem solved.
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If you/they don't, then... well problem non-existent to begin with.
But do trust me when i say i get the can't actually really afford giving things away.
You'd probably (or not, dunno) be surprised with the amount of folks around here that do give quite a bit, while not really being able to afford a lot.
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I don't actually didn't buy a copy. I wanted to, but didn't. So I've "lost" nothing really, I was just saying if I had bought one.
Actually, yes. You wanna know why? Because first of all, it probably would be even cheaper (at least at the beginning) and I could afford to buy a copy for myself then too. Secondly, there then might be more giveaways for it, so more people benefit from it. Or maybe people just decide to then buy it for themselves, either way! More people would have access to the game. I know that I'm talking like I'd still have to pay 20 dollars for the game, when in fact it was just 6.70. I get that it isn't a lot of money to most people but I'm a very, very indecisive person. I always think about things twice or three times before I actually buy stuff, especially when it's a game I don't really "need" (let's be honest, we don't need games) because I got so many to choose from alreay. Anyway, that got a bit off-topic I think.
TL;DR: Yes, I would feel better, because more people 'profit' from it.
As for your second question, most games that are given out for free are "bad" indie games anyway, which, like you said, had been bundled before, so they would only be worth one or two dollars of CV anyway, so no, I wouldn't really be sad about it. Sure, it's a loss in a way but not a huge one. It kinda depends, though. I mean.. I still got a copy of Shadow Warrior ready to be gifted (I also got it back when it was so incredibly cheap with the coupon, because it seems like a good game that people actually wanna play) and if that's the game that'd be given out for free- well, yes it's been bundled, but it still somehow is a "more valuable" bundle game, you know? These hardly are given away for free. But yeah, if that was the case, I'd indeed be a little more sad because it is a game that I bought to give away and if that wasn't possible anymore, well, the whole purpose of buying it would be lost.
I wanted to give it away, because it seemed like a game people would be actually interested in, and it wasn't teeeerribly expensive. But now that whole "it's considered bundled" thing just kinda ruined it for me. Ah well.
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I do get all your reasoning, but you have to understand this is mostly due to the amount of exploitation that would allow for.
The second set of choices still apply though, you just don't get to have your cake and eat it, you have to make a decision.
Sorry, sounds harsh when i say it like that... :'(
But it's true...
You either do buy it nonetheless, because it is the game you want to give away and settle for the 15% CV you get and take extra joy in giving a really good game or...
You find another great game you would like to give away as well that is also not that expensive. You still get to make someone happy, and you get full CV for it.
Life is made of choices, this is just another one. :)
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Life isn't easy and neither is finding a perfect solution for all problems ever that everyone is fine with. I get that...
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Another point I just remembered: back in in the day when The Darkness II wasn't bundled, I bought two copies to give away because I just loooved the game and I wanted people to play it because I just enjoyed it so much.
I gave away one copy, and kept the other one for a while. Then it was in the tier 1 humble bundle. I bought three (or four?) of those. Two (or three?) to give to internet friends even thought they actually didn't want it (I mean it wasn't on their wishlist), one to give away here too. Yes, it kinda sucked that I bought a copy beforehand and never gave it away while it wasn't bundled (I think I ended up trading the gift copy for something else, but I can't remember), but really I just was glad that now more people could actually afford the game. So that's kinda what your first question was about.
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But like i said, we've all been there... or at least most of us that give away from time to time.
You have, i have, and i'm sure most folks have. Still nothing SG can do about it, so people being mad at SG and opening threads to complain about it doesn't help anyone, that's all i'm saying.
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Yeah, no sure, complaining doesn't do anything, that's true. It still just kinda is frustrating, that's all I've got left to say.. :/
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The problem is when people see that deals as a way to farm CV, not a opportunity to give a good game, with good reviews, for a good price.
But what Elunes mentioned, about when you have gave away the game before the deals and its get bundled because one country, I can agree it is kind disappointing.
But also, if it got bundled, it was probably massively discounted in all countries, but Russia got a little more discount. But I think you keep CV if you gave it away before... ? Not sure.
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the thing is: it sorta is available for the whole world! Everyone can find a Russian trader or buy a region locked copy on G2A or the like for very cheap and then create a GA here...
It's only about a possible exploit of CV. And that's feasible even though the majority of users can't activate the game to their accounts.
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Sorta, kinda, yeah.
I would agree if it was a regular price in store, but it only was that cheap with the coupon - and you could only get one per person, unless you created different accounts or asked friends to get coupons for you.
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I heard from people who have three facebook accounts just to get free stuff. Alienware just needs an email-address to get an account...
I'm very certain that people who trade a lot do everything to maximize their profits and don't mind to even get dozens of those coupons if they can.
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Not in a bundle but considered bundled, regarding CV.
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Read the thread!
But basically, the price for it dropped to more than 95% off for Russians.
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Well, this is a great example why is this whole "falls in bundle" rule wrong. It seems like no matter what we do, few bad apples ALWAYS spoil the bunch... What will be next? Are we going to keep lowering the threshold of what is considered a bundle game until we run out of non-bundle games? Where will we draw the line?
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Do you have a better suggestion?
I've seen a couple on this thread, all exploitable quite easily to a more detrimental effect than this measure that took place.
No offence, not trying to start something, just saying...
Complaining is easy, offering alternatives isn't.
But if you do, i'm all ears.
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Well, admitting that something is quite not right is the first step to success so I appreciate that you agree with me that there should be a better solution. Whatever the solution will be, it must be something that will make sure that trying to exploit the system would not result in anything beneficial.
So what do we already know? We know that Valve divides players into individual regions and this allows them to change the prices based on the region, but naturally it doesn't mean that if Russians have cheap games, others will have them cheap too. This means two different prices where one region has the same game cheaper than the other region.
Effective solution to this problem for Steamgifts users would be that there would be bundle lists for individual regions, so that if Russians get the game so cheap it reaches their bundle list, it would not affect the rest of us. Of course this is not an ideal solution either, but when you run into this problem of such huge differences in the prices for the same product just because there are two different regions, it clearly begs for a different approach and that approach must take into account both regions and not treat them the same way, because Valve clearly doesn't so why should we?
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What you suggested has been suggested on the first page of this thread, and possible way too easy exploits have been pointed out as well. :)
Also, regardless of my feelings towards this solution, i actually made no claim that this wasn't quite right.
Saying i for one can't find a better alternative, does not necessarily imply i believe this one to be flawed.
Further upwards, i did say region-locked GAs should have a cut in CV themselves, imo, but that was a sidenote, i would've still handled this particular issue as it was, because of the exploits mentioned. See page 1 for reference.
As far as i can see it, regarding this particular case... this is the best of what's feasible. Imo, anyway.
I mean, that's not saying there's anything flawed with it, that's merely like saying "sure i'd love to fly, but hey, no wings..."
Probably not the best possible analogy, but i think you still get my point and i'm too lazy to come up with a better one atm, hope you don't mind. :P
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"sure I'd love to fly, but hey, no wings..." although not directly this essentially says that you do admit that the system isn't perfect (or flawless) and you would like some better solution, but in the same time you said previously that just because you can't find a better alternative it doesn't mean that you believe this one has flaws. You know, you need to make up your mind about this matter, because these two statements are contradicting. As for the exploits, you wrote pretty long post, I would hope to find at least one or two examples how my suggestion could be exploited, but not a single sentence going into details of that, but ok I will go all the way to the beginning of this thread and try to find it like you suggested, if you so insist on forcing me to look for a needle in a haystack.
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I get the impression you're more than just slightly ticked off by what i said and i did go out of my way to say i wasn't trying to start something... :/
I merely pointed that if you felt the solution was imperfect you should suggest something first (which you hadn't at that point).
I get that impression, because now you're putting words in my mouth and saying i'm contradicting myself to suit your argument... :/
You had done it before actually and i clarified it in good will, but you still pushed for it to suit what you wanted. If i write apples and you read oranges, please don't blame me for it.
(Long sigh)
Oh and EVEN IF (and it's a big if), i had said exactly what you said i did in those exact words ("just because you can't find a better alternative it doesn't mean that you believe this one has flaws"), this would be in no way contradictory. If i can't find the better alternative, then where exactly are the flaws? It merely means i'm not a fundamentalist, and just because i don't see the flaws, i don't exclude their possibility. But if you do see them, isn't it on you to point them out?
I did say the no wings analogy probably wasn't the best analogy, but it still wasn't that flawed to the point that you could establish the parallel you did. That's like saying i said something along the lines of "we're imperfect by natural design and don't serve our natural purpose and somehow should have sprouted wings throughout evolution, but oh well..." :/
And you're right, i shouldn't have to ask you to read what i myself already had the trouble of reading, you should do what's normal on the internet, open a parachute mid-thread and assume nothing has been said about it and/or expect other folks to spoon-feed you the most relevant comments, especially if said folks have like you yourself said, had the added trouble of writing a pretty long post.
Here's a needle.
Feel free to look for the rest... or don't...
Just try not to spin my words, please.
I don't like to assume, so i'm not going to assume it's a language barrier issue, but it if is the case, don't be so bold next time when throwing around words like contradicting.
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If by saying "sure i'd love to fly, but hey, no wings..." you did not mean what I understood (and mentioned in the beginning of my previous post), then I would highly recommend you to say exactly what you mean to say instead of using metaphors and questionable analogies if you don't want to confuse people.
I didn't want to start an argument though, so I will leave this be, because this is pointless anyway and I believe we both know that the system is NOT perfect and just because you can't find any better solution, it doesn't mean this current one isn't flawed nor does it mean it shouldn't be changed.
The current system has its ups and downs and should we talk about exploits of both the suggested solution and current system, it's pretty much the same when it comes to exploits. While nay sayers said the suggestion is not good due to potential exploit, the nature of that said exploit is essentially the same as the current system already allows.
They said you could create fake giveaways using non-regional GA to farm CV, but if you think about it, you will come to a conclusion that people can (and already do as we speak) create fake giveaways rather often even now so what's the difference? They are being caught by support (thanks to user reports) and those users who create fake giveaways are punished and they would be punished for exploiting the new system too.
Maybe this would create more ways for abusers to abuse the system and therefore more work for support members, but in the same time, it would solve the problem with unjustified punishments of giveaway creators who are basically the heart of Steamgifts. Every solution has its drawbacks and must be polished and it's just a matter of trying to think of solutions to the problems that occur because it's easy to say it's hard to solve and leave it behind. What is a real challenge is to try and find a solution rather than hitting around the bush and saying it's hard, that won't solve the problem.
So.. Many users already admitted the current system hurts Steamgifts community in the long run, as you can see some other users already said they don't really enjoy this. Now we need to think of ways how to improve it rather than saying that this and that is a bad suggestion of solution because saying it's a bad suggestion without suggesting something that would fix it is a part of our problem and partially the reason why we need to deal with this.
This however is nothing new really. In each and every field things change constantly even in real life and other things that depend on how stuff used to work before, naturally won't work the same way anymore and need to be fixed / adjusted, that's what this is all about and there is no point in blindly defending the current system if it's clearly not serving it's purpose properly anymore.
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If by saying "sure i'd love to fly, but hey, no wings..." you did not mean what I understood (and mentioned in the beginning of my previous post), then I would highly recommend you to say exactly what you mean to say instead of using metaphors and questionable analogies if you don't want to confuse people.
Ah well, sorry, but i give up, no offence... :/
The irony is, i used that analogy after you had started putting words in my mouth, not before. But oh well...
But no matter.
You have your opinion, i have mine, let's leave it at that and agree to disagree.
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Since when assuming that we both agreed that the current system is flawed is putting words in your mouth? It was just a misunderstanding on my part, no need to be so touchy. I see. You want to keep your opinion, so keep it. There are many who don't like this though, not just me and we aren't trying to create an argument either, we are simply discussing and trying to find solutions and of course if suggested solutions have good fundamentals, but still have some flaws here and there, the flaws need to be addressed rather than throwing the whole solution out of the window.
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Haha, thanks for the heads up... I bought one in the previous sale, 2 weeks ago, and was thinking about creating a GA for it yesterday.
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Yes, I try that. Today is the 14th day.
I saw your wishlist, sorry :s
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Stop the hateful comments please, this is not about Russians, this is about the "falls in bundle" system being wrong and obsolete, not adjusted flexibly and operatively to the latest changes Vale makes on Steam! Russians have the cheapest games, but does it mean I can buy the game so cheap too? NO of course it doesn't! I have to pay much more for games than Russians and yet I am punished on Steamgifts by lower CV. Don't get me wrong, this is not just about me or you, it's about everyone outside those regions, it's about everyone who has to pay the full price. Why should we suffer from this issue if Valve clearly decided that we can't benefit from the games being sold cheaper in these other regions?
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then...because im from a 3rd world country..and i pay the 1dollar= 10 pesos....No game should be bundled for me,because i pay a lot more for a game than regular people...
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It would be hateful, if it wasn't sad and self-ironic (I'm from Russia myself).
I don't want to get into the debates about what is fair or unfair (too many of it in the forum for the last few days), and I don't care much about my CV or possible changes on SG, but all the restriction solutions I see, which aimed to restore the balance and punish the abusers, will definitely harm the majority of non-abusers from the "cheaper" regions. This is not a golden mean (if there is any ever).
Anyway, as someone mentioned, sooner or later ROW games will cease to exist, and I wonder what will happen to SG then.
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all the restriction solutions I see, which aimed to restore the balance and punish the abusers, will definitely harm the majority of non-abusers from the "cheaper" regions.
Let's not forget that there are abusers and non-abusers everywhere not just either in non-cheap reagions or just in cheap regions, therefore speaking about fair or unfair solution, there should be a solution that would not punish anyone, rather prevent from being abused while maintaining better balance between regions. Like I said previously, Valve clearly divides us all into regions and we all suffer from that in one way or another, so why would we settle for a solution that that will make us suffer even more? We need a solution that will do the opposite, solution that will ease up the pain and pressure created by changes of game prices in individual regions. If and when ROW games cease to exist is another topic and if and when that happens, we will have to deal with it then and it will be just another reason to re-think the whole system.
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I think not as many people will give it away now which is a shame. Should be bundled only if a person gives away 3 or more copies (at once and not at once as well).
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Still quite the bargain to get $120 CV for less than $5, for some folks. ;)
Do you really find that to be fairer than this? :)
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Well, if a game is discounted 90% it can also be very easy abused to gain a lot of CV and it won't be put on the bundle list. We may dissect pros and cons all the time. The system is not perfect, that much is sure.
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Well, technically it has to be 95% to go on the list, unless i'm terribly mistaken.
I know it's not that big of a line, but it had to be drawn somewhere.
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I have an idea. Let SteamGifts become a mediator. They can create a site bot like the trading bot on the other site. All steam gifts should be given to the bot first so they can check it and then give it to the winner. Only the keys are applied with bundle rules. This way would make many problems solved.
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It's not a solution. Key may be with region locks too, and key's price is different in different regions
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Keys are applied with bundle rules still. If they wanna avoid this, they can buy a gift from Steam. That should be pretty easy. And this also make the giveaway safe from cheating. Very few people might lie that they do not receive the gift or what. This way will solve it too.
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So if someone buys a key of fallout 4 from greenmangaming for $48 is that still a bundled key?
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No. Fallout 4 isn't in the bundle list. The giveaway provided with key follows the current rules.
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No. he was talking about situation, when gift from steam store is considered as non-bundled, when key is on bundle list. Like Saint's Row 3 GIFT would give 100% CV and key 15%.
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Nope. Gameminer has got system like that and at some point valve banned their bots and they lost people gifts. Now they changet it, but it's not 100% certain that winner will receive gift due to Valve bot-hunting time (they say to you that you have to receive GIFT ASAP or otherwise it can be lost).
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It happend more than year ago. But everyone had been considering this exchanging-bots as save way of delivering gifts, and due to banning all GM trading bots they learned the hard way it's not true.
Edit: It was pretty much 2 years ago.... times flies by xD Well I think that GM is at the moment dying, if they'd want to make something with this site (like this design change) they'd do it long time ago.
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They still do have bots as well as PlayBlink not to mention most of TF2, CSGO sites.
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Yeah, but noone can guarantee that Valve at some point won't say "Look, they are trading restricted gifts once more as they used to, let's ban their bots once more".
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I could see this game's giveaways many times recently. But I think it's due to the awesomeness of the game not to its cheapness, or at least both.
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Why was Metro Last Light btw bundled in August ? What happened ?
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I would guess that pricing dropped below 95% in another country like Talos did.
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Am I the only one that's happy? I bought the game at full price, it's probably the best game I've played in a while and I'm happy a lot of people will get play it now.
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With all the new currecnies and regional prices on Steam this is going to happen a lot more often.
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+1 to this.
I hope someone gave Shobo a lifetime supply of coffee.
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This really only matters if you're looking to farm CV by giving away a great game, if you're just looking to pass the game along to people who have it on their must play list this changes nothing. If you're just buying a game to gain CV you're doing it wrong anyways imo.
Just my 2 cents.
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... also matters if you bought it as the finale to a promised unbundled GA train and the day you create that train it gets bundled T.T
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Possibly, but I'd look at that as bad luck and still say thank you with a smile for the wonderful train :)
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Alienware Arena giveaways - but there's none left.
https://eu.alienwarearena.com/giveaways/the-talos-principle-50-steam-discount-key-giveaway
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SG's whole bundling / bundle list policy is a joke.
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Or maybe it isn't :P
What do you think about TTP being bundled?
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