I'm with you, not that I have much against referrals to begin with, but the rules should applied evenly across all sites being linked too.
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And any kind of referral marketing pays peanuts, its about volume, not the individual payout.
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Somehow I have the feeling that not many people go to buy a game from a page that is supposed to open up a free giveaway of it.
Honestly, I don't even know why they are there in the first place.
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I wasnt suggest the guy or gal, has made a cent, just saying the peanuts argument is a moot one.
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I don't even know why they are there in the first place.
and excuse to put referrals and have fanboys defend him to death.
who would have thought? it's working perfectly!
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They might not buy or they might. But there is a higher chance that they will check out the links to see the price and get the referral cookie. Cookie's duration is probably set to a year for g2a, so for the duration of that time they might make some purchase thru g2a and be included in the referral system that is highly possible.
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I think the whole point is that it shouldn't be. They shouldn't be able to decide who gets to break the rules and who has to follow them. There's enough left to their whim as it is.
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If cg says, "EggShen is a cool guy. I'm going to make him Level 10 instantly," I wouldn't have a problem with it. I might think it a bit strange, but without him, this site wouldn't exist. cg that is, not EggShen. ;-)
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There's plenty of cooler peoples then me around these [parts
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If you are okay with a person in power randomly giving huge benefits to specific people for no apparent reason, you might want to review your ethics.
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Put the badge away, ethics police. It was an extreme example, and maybe not a good one. The point is, if cg thinks that SGT provides a great enough service (saving Support and users lots of time) and the ref links aren't required to use the site, but help offset a small amount of the cost for it, then that's okay with me. So in that case it's not "randomly" or "for no apparent reason." My ethics are just fine.
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I invite you then to live in my country. After about a year, you will not only not be offended by something like that, but downright expect it as a part of everyday life.
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If that matters to you, the referrals are for the giveaways cg creates, and the ads for the server costs
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So it means people from here buy at GamersGate? I thought it was a relatively unknown store in the SG community.
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Well, those can earn a pretty penny in the long run. ^^
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yeah, i think when it does though that is where the community voted gas come from and such tho.. so if it does very well, it is typically still given back into the community.
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Are you a parent? You'll eventually use the ''do as I say not as I do'' line. Its not a moral issue about the referrals, its about using the site to profit which is not the intent. I dont believe cg is profitting from here in any meaningful way. He needs to cover his costs somehow. And we arent inundated with ads, so really, seems like the lesser evil.
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Well it's his website, he can pretty much do whatever he wants
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i don't know. isn't it absolutely normal that websites don't allow to post ads, while of course financing their site with ads? referrals are just another form of advertisement, right? i don't see the problem here.
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Like exposing random ppl to psycho cat. And make them want to see it more :)
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I'm not speaking on behalf of the topic in question, but as a support member you should know better than using those half-assed quotes in an argument. A successful person in power does not 'do whatever he wants' if it makes no sense in context.
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since sg is privately owned by cg, he can actually do whatever he wants.
is it right or wrong?
both opinions are valid, but the fact that he's the site owner remains.
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He makes giveaways for the community, does that make enough sense for you ?
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TBH everybody does, and while majority will probably be fine with it - including me, because it's his site and he can do whatever he wishes including banning people he wants, there is some expected behaviour as owner of the site, and if he openly started banning everybody he wants, people would sooner or later stop contributing because of not agreeing with his point of view.
It's same like expecting from you as a support member that you won't suddenly call out people or put negative rep on user profiles. Likewise we expect that nobody is above rules the owner put himself, including the owner as well.
It'd be enough to change
Referral links are not allowed in the community, and if you choose to post a link, please be sure all referral codes have been removed.
Into:
Referral links are not allowed in the discussions, and if you choose to post a link, please be sure all referral codes have been removed.
Plus adding everything else that one doesn't consider appropriate, for example giveaways and trades sections too. Small change, big effect, and no people hurt in the process.
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Referral links are not allowed in the discussions, trades, trade feedbacks, giveaways and tickets, and if you choose to post a link, please be sure all referral codes have been removed.
Doesn't it look confusing, as if there was a place where they can go post their referrals
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It does, but at the same time it's ultra-precise and avoids discussion we got involved in here about SG using refs as well.
So, I'd say that precision > confusion, in general any official documents including ToSes and guidelines follow that rule, and optional extra clarification is still better than non-precise word that can be interpreted in various different ways.
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But guidelines and Tos are between a service and its users, I don't think it has to apply to the service itself.
If cg as an user was posting comments with referral links, then it would be questionable, but here this is something embedded in the website itself.
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Yep, and that's why I agree with what he's doing and I don't even question that or want to change that - I'm just suggesting very misc clarification in the rules so people won't get confused. I doubt anybody alright with his mind would blame cg for posting refs on his own site, but people can blame him if he said no to refs yet kept posting them himself. This is what "indirectly" happens, but in reality 99% of people would probably be fine with clarification enough. Personally I don't have any problems with them, but judging from comments in this thread, such clarification is needed - not for me, for the community.
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The reason for that rule is to make SG better community. We really don't want people to spam their links everywhere every time some game ends up on sale on any store.
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doesn't matter to me what cg does with the site. he could leech and have a terrible ratio and i wouldn't care.
actually, i would love him to start banning people for stuff not in the rules.
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why perma?
just ban for 3000 years sgtools style ;)
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Yep, I see no problem with referrals built into the site, it has to pay for itself somehow. Hosting SG cant be cheap and I didnt think he was paying out of pocket, never really thought about where he was generating revenue, but Im ok with that.
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It's not really revenue since he gets store credits, so these are for giveaways. The ads are for revenue.
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then its even less of an issue imo. I didnt know sg has ads, been using adblockers longer than sg, guess I should whitelist here.
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Be careful. I had to re-add the site because the ads after a while managed to drive the browser's resource use through the roof. I have a few more sites whitelisted and none produced the same, despite Google pretty much now showing the same 4-5 ads to me everywhere.
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You could theoretically use those credits to buy games and resell them for money, it's a hassle though.
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So sgtools has no server costs that they have to pay?
Don't get me wrong, I don't condone referrals on sgtools but to imply there's a difference between sg and sgtools in that respect is wrong.
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I suppose they do, that's why they have ads and donations buttons
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This is actually a pretty good point. If gleam links get shot down because they contain referral links...
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It's dodgey but is there a better tool at the moment?
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some would argue that tool is basically encouraging ism's on SG, so yes, the better tool would be no tool.
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well, i couldnt find a word i thought fit best, but instead of racism, ratioism, instead of classism, cvism, instead of being discriminated against because of prior criminal history (dunno what ism that would be) being discriminated against past offense on sg or steam.
With groups/wl/and contributor level restrictions built into the site, I dont see a need for SGtools. but thats my opinion, and not the popular one.
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whitelisted. not that i do many wl gibs but still.
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Frankly, some of its filters and counters and checkboxes I'd love to have on SG. For example, using a filter to only let people in if they won less games than the value of X, so the unlucky ones can have a better shot.
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I wouldnt mind seeing some of the things incorporated to the site either, Im not saying its all bad, but it certainly can and has been used to exclude people just because 'there not good enough for my games'
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but using levels other than 0, groups, wl is also excluding for the same reason you can say if you want to simplify that way...
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For you built-in tools may be good enough, but for others (as can be seen by the amount of SGT giveaways) it's not enough.
First, I think it is much better to show that "clean profile" rule test has failed (or any other for that matter) than "you have been blacklisted". A lot less of hurt feelings and drama.
Second, SGT doesn't introduce anything (afaik) that cannot be achieved by other means. But those other means come with a hefty price in time and work needed (I'm speaking here about general public space, not closed groups/wl) bot to set-up and to maintain. For me, it is too high price to pay except maybe for one time special occasion.
Bottom line is, if/when I'd feel making a GA, be it public/WL/group/forum, has a good chance leaving me less happy/satisfied/etc than not doing it I won't do it. Gifting games is not the only way to make other people (and me in the process) happy
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SGT doesn't introduce anything
It introduces an invisible site-wide blacklist since they started banning users from the tool
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Where do you see that ? I've only seen the number posted once, it was over 100 back then
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Main thread has some stats. The amount of perm-banned changed (i.e. lowered) with implementation of the strike system.
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Ah yes, I forgot about entering via leaked links. Multi-user coordination of BL is next to impossible to achieve
TBH, I'd prefer if they dropped that and focused on detecting and banning leakers only (which is perfecly doable with very high accuracy). At least there are scripts that protect from entering sgt gas via leaked links
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I think it's doing the opposite. I used to do Level 4 giveaways by default, but now almost all of my giveaways are Level 0. This is all thanks to SGTools, which allows me to filter out rule breakers.
This post explains the rule I use the most. It's the opposite of elitist, as the vast majority of people on this site can enter.
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Like I said a few comments above, I dont think it's all bad. Its all in how its used.
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i don't use SGTools myself, but i find it a very nice tool. the one time i used it (at least i think it was only one time, might have forgotten...), i made a giveaway for people on the forum who didn't win anything yet. that is the direct opposite of what you generally do with level and group requirements. low level members will not find any good groups easily, and they will have a hard time winning any giveaways. but if they gave away 10 games and didn't win any so far, SGTools is a great way of giving them a really good chance at a win.
though, i will also say, that SGTools is often used in a way i personal dislike. but that isn't necessarily the tool's fault. ;)
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I'd whiltelist you but its reserved for support bribes ;)
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but thats my opinion, and not the popular one.
it's actually very popular, and it will get even more popular in a few days.
using sgtools: 801
900k+ users
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Hopefully those isms are altruism, pacifism and pastafarianism
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Considering all the giveaway entry pages link to G2A/Kinguin I'm not in the least surprised.
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I didn't even know those are referrals and never clicked on them. I just thought it would be a useful information to compare prices. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
I'm fine with the different prices to be shown but I don't think those should be referral links as they're forbidden on SG itself.
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I'm standing right next to you with my pitchfork, Gin!
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because websites (all of them) are dictatorships. Anytime you go against the popular opinion, you run the risk of retribution for it.
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Also because she directly called out someone as a rule-breaker…
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indeed. and wth, why do i assume everyone on the internet is a guy.
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Because girl = guy in real life? :P
To be fair, there is no neutral noun in English in relation to people so masculine ones 'he/him/his/etc.' tend to be used as default until proven otherwise.
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That usually refers to a group though I'm starting to see it more in the singular which is a bit odd.
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I've never thought it as odd. But English is an odd duck anyways.
CJ is here now. They are very nice to me. Their opinion of apples is moot.
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English is fucking annoying and I studied English lit -.-. Found this and I guess it explains why I find it's usage in the singular to be a bit odd
Long before the use of generic he was condemned as sexist, the pronouns they, their, and them were used in educated speech and in all but the most formal writing to refer to singular indefinite pronouns or singular nouns of general personal reference (which are often not felt to be exclusively singular): If anyone calls, tell them I'll be back soon. A parent should read to their child.Such use is not a recent development, nor is it a mark of ignorance. Shakespeare, Swift, Shelley, Scott, and Dickens, as well as many other English and American writers, have used they and its related case forms to refer to singular antecedents. Already widespread in the language (though still rejected as ungrammatical by some), this use of they, their, and them is increasing in all but the most conservatively edited American English. This increased use is at least partly impelled by the desire to avoid generic he or the awkward he/she and he or she when the antecedent’s gender is not known or when the referent is of mixed gender: The victim had money and jewellery taken from them. It’s hard to move an aging mother or father from their long-term home.
However, while use of they and its forms after singular indefinite pronouns or singular nouns of general personal reference or indefinite gender is common and generally acceptable, their use to refer to a single clearly specified, known, or named person is uncommon and likely to be noticed and criticized, as in this example: My hair stylist had their car stolen.Even so, use of they, their, and them is increasingly found in contexts where the antecedent is a gender-nonconforming individual or one who does not identify as male or female: Tyler indicated their preferences on their application.
And although they may be used as a singular pronoun, they still takes a plural verb, analogous to the use of "you are" to refer to one person: The student brought in a note to show why they were absent.See also he.
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Why would you you need an additional neutral noun? What's the problem with the generic "he"?
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But is it "calling out" if all she did was link to comments that the user in question made themselves on this very forum? (Genuinely curious)
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if you link to a giveaway you are sure is fake, its calling out, so yea, kinda.
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But that is a different situation. You can have all the probable grounds to infer that a giveaway by another user is fake but you won't be able to prove it unless the creator actually admitted it.
If in such a scenario, the creator also documented their admission in a comment on this site, surely linking to the comment wouldn't be seen as "calling out"?
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if you do it publicly it is. if you message support with the approriate links, it is not.
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it does count as calling out. sure XYZ may post a comment or thread where he breaks rules or admits to breaking the rules. Some people will see it some will not. When you are linking to said comment/topic you are making sure more people will notice it, hence you are calling XYZ out.
ASnd linking to comment/thread can be used to do the same hard as usual calling out. Let's say |I make a thread emotionengine is a scammer, because I got scammed by your impersonator, or have some problem with you and want to make people BlackList you. I get suspended for Calling Out. And then what? Should I be free, or get my friends to do so, to post the link to said thread over and over again? I could then infinitelly harass you getting you BLed based on fake accusation and go unpunished, because I'm not calling you out, just linking to something which is calling you out ;p
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I understand that it's against the rules to create threads or posts with the sole intention of accusing other users of some infraction. The example you provide in the second paragraph would be an obvious attempt at circumventing this rule in order to continue with the latter activity. It would be a violation of the rule in spirit, if not in letter.
I think, however, that two mitigating circumstances apply to cases such as the one in this very thread. Firstly, I would argue that a user publicly admitting to an infraction and thus essentially "calling them self out" merits an exception to the no calling out rule. (Their admission may prove to be instrumental in determining their culpability after all). A strict application of the no calling out rule would imply a second penalty for this act in addition to whatever penalty was served for the original infraction. I do not know if this is actually what happens in such a case, but it sounds like a heavy handed approach to me.
The second mitigating circumstance, I think, is when you refer or link to such (self-)incriminating comments made in the context of a broader debate by invoking them as evidence that is relevant or integral to the current discussion. My gut feeling tells me that this thread constitutes such a case, and thus the no calling out rule should be applied judiciously, if at all here.
But I could be wrong and may have interpreted this rule incorrectly, and Steffke could end up being suspended for calling out.
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well - I do know that I've seen warnings from support to people linking comments made by certain person. Well wth, he is banned anyway so I guess maybe no calling out still is in place. When konrad was still around and creating threads - a lot of trolling towards him would happen in every topic. Then some newbies would ask "what is this about" and in reply someone would post bunch of links to his previous schemes, his homophobic comments for example and I've seen support asking to remove links as it may be considered calling out. Even if it was he himself who posted these links.
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Well, with the whole Princess Kenny thing, I am unsure as well, but based on posts, I am guessing female.
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yes, she it is. You can also see her name on Steam profile, and Steffi is a female name in Germany ;)
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Her Steam profile page shows "Steffi" as real name, and that is a common German abbreviation for Stefanie.
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To be fair, it could also be a trap. Or a nickname by some cruel friends. I remember during my school time there was a girl called Sabrina which was nicknamed "Sabba" (which may remind the german users for the word "Sabber") ..... This name may or may not be originated from me -__- . I just hope that I'm a nicer human today .....
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for someone random, maybe - we could never know, but steffi is fairly known around SG, so we know she's a girl, we simply answered adding some additional info besides "it is as we speak, because we know it is this way" ;)
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Yea, I believed you as you said it before. It was just the argumentation that "bothered" me a bit. Also it is always nice to get some information about other users as it gives the pure username a bit more life
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Well, I tend to be cautious with nicknames, especially with German-family languages. I mean, heck, I have seen plenty of people thinking I was female because Gabby is usually an English nickname for Gabriella or Gabrielle. (Not to mention that it is a short version of my real name…)
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Like I said above - in this case we simply know steffi, as she's been around for a while and very active for a while so we simply know she's a girl ;) The whole name argument is just an extra, not the sole basis on which we deduct her gender ;p
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where does everyone think that the money comes from to run a site like this? - we all might not like some of the rules, we all might get annoyed about certain ones being used oddly/differently etc... - but this site must cost quite a bit of money to run, and surely we cannot all expect the person who owns the site to run it out of their own pocket? - Anyway, as support said, the ref links gain credits only and are often used to purchase giveaways, and the ads are to help run the site - seems like a fair enough reason (what I don't like is seeing G2A listed in sgtools, when the site has a breakdown when ever anyone mentions them :) - never know if I can trust them with this kind of yes on sgtools but hell no in the forums ? makes it difficult
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yeah tinypurple said the same thing, but they appear so closely aligned that I thought they were one and the same - as many people seem to use them - so I appologise for that :)
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the g2a hate comes from the people who refuse to see that offering a middle man site, is not the same as committing credit card fraud directly. Are some of the sellers on g2a scammers? Yep. When you buy a 60$ game for 3$ and then it gets revoked because it was bought with a stolen cc, its not the sites fault, its the users fault. No one seems to remember the idiom, if it sounds too good to be true, it is. Ive used g2a without issue, common sense goes a long way. I'd wager the majority of games for sale there are legitimate purchases, but they dont get the publicity, only the ones that arent.
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any platform who doesn't protect its buyer is to be avoided.
what is the diff with Ebay, or even Aliexpress?
but this is not a discussion about G2A (which i would never use)
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Well, yes, their support is shite, but again, if you use common sense, you should never need their support.
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It is the site's fault if it is literally showing said product on its front page as a great deal… Because the store page front there just lists the individual best prices and even their advertisement mail jut points to things like that. So in a sense they can be advertising stolen products, but good luck trying to sue a shell company in Hong Kong if you get wronged.
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I understand what you are saying, but again, common sense. No one should believe you can get a release day AAA game for 90% off.
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Sadly though, the only thing in this universe that is proven to be always underestimated, no matter how extreme your expectations are, is the sheer infinite levels of human stupidity and gullability.
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This is unfortunatly true. Some people do things so stupid that it I would never even have thought it possible to be that stupid...
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It always makes me happy to see a post that get that diference. So much hate on G2A makes me sad.
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you talking about SG ref and ads, or sgtools ref and ads? two diff topics.
cg can do what ever he wants, cause he writes the rules and runs the site....
knsys cannot.
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ahhh - now that I did not know - thought they were working together, rather than seperately - thanks for the heads up - didn't mean to open a hornets nest here, I was just curious as to the nature of the hate - also, if knsys cannot, then surely CG would just ban sgtools - if they are not working closely - I am confused I think as SGtools is so closely aligned with SG, that they may be mistaken for being one and the same (as I was :) - although I don't think that sgtools is a bad thing, but I am getting a bit of a feeling from this thread that some people don't like it and some do - different strokes for different you know :)
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you are here for 2 years. sgtools is actually "new" only a year or so (i think less). you can check on the official thread.
SG is about 5 years.
think about this. you join a GA site (SG for example), which already has options for levels and such.
but then you use another site (lets call it SGticks) that has more rules, made up rules. like VAC bans, or previous non-marked wins or ratio real or SG cv. anyway, it became elitisit in a way.
either you came to give games (and leech) or you think everyone but a selected few should be allowed to bask in your glorious GA (aka badrats the old one).
ok, a bit of ranting, the that is how i feel/think
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you think everyone but a selected few should be allowed to bask in your glorious GA
gently pointing you to all the GA-groups..
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not the same.
they are for specific purpose. this forum invite only GA are for all users who bother to read the forum
(comment or not, their choice)
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eh? It's about the effect of giving access to GAs to certain people only. You make it sound as if SGT is bringing that as a new concept, while groups did & still do since the longest time already.
Differing only in approach.
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i disagree.
in groups you choose people who either ask to join, or you want them in your groups. either way, some influence is needed
sgtools GA are not. they block whole groups of people based on arbitrary rules (and yes, some groups have rules, but the influence is still there)
maybe influence is not the right word. participation maybe?
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some groups have rules
not some, basically all non-public ones have
block whole groups of people based on arbitrary rules
levels do the same.
I could make a group and invite solely those who fit my criteria. And that was/is being done since years.
SGT breaks this down to a per-GA level, plus automatizes the process effectively giving more people the chance to participate in what else would stay in way smaller group circles.
a good example
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i know yirg costume rules. he is indeed good with them. he tries to make SGtools more fair (imo).
all true. and yet, how would you find those people?! would you scrounge the users list?
i assume not
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how would you find those people?! would you scrounge the users list? i assume not
huh? I don't understand what you mean there
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A regular Level 5 GA, is ok in your book, but it's much closer to a GA that's available only to "selected few", not to mention group GAs which are sometimes available to 10 people.
In contrast, an SGTools Level 0 GA that has "Activated all won games" checked is accessible to most users on SteamGifts and is therefore far less elitist. Even adding some additional restrictions allows letting far more people in (including Level 0 users), compared to Level-based giveaways.
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i only do lvl10 GA, who is this lvl5 you speak of? jk ofcourse
i knew someone would come up with the basic rule. however, that rule is the worst one
it assumes you are evil if you didn't activate all wins.
the site kicks users (kick=ban or whatever) that abuse the system too much.
some can't undo their mistakes, some can. i don't think those are less deserving.
especially if he gave some games, ie lvl 2-3-4-5-6-etc (yeah, lvl1 is crap)
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anyone who has unactivated win can undo their mistake - just buy the game yourself and activate it.
the only impossible to undo thing is multiwin. And things associated with Steam profile (aka VAC ban, trade ban etc)
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impossible to undo thing is multiwin
only some special or very old cases. Most are with a bit of effort
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Yeap, that's why many people who use SGTools as a filter define a time limit for multiple wins (I usually set 2 years).
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tbh - there is a huge difference. unactivated win may be fixed by yourself. Multiwin requires help of the original GA creator, he must be willing to help, must post a support ticket by himself, must be willing to reroll a GA (which can be hqard for GAs months old and older) or to delete it (meaning he losts GA slot as well for something which was not his fault at all), but yeah, maybe I worded myself wrong. What I meant was that any unactivated win can be easilly fixed by a winner, multiwin on the other hand is impossible to be fixed by winner on his own.
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true, that's what I meant with "a bit of effort" ;-)
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i actually had multiple win... stupid steam and its diff appid :(
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Serving a suspension doesn't solve the problem. It just makes it a perpetual problem for any future GA creators this user is going to win a games from, and as a result a perpetual problem for Support.
https://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/qjnia/does-a-suspension-absolve-users-from-unactivated-wins
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so true, so many wasted tickets and support-workhours :-/
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permaban or unlimited suspension does solve the problem.
i caught one of those.
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Only very few users get permaban. The rest get a temporary suspension, and then transfer the burden to GA creators and Support, who forever need to deal with the past wrong doing of the rule breaker. The solution is simple.
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so why you decide who gets out.
you can't be the judge and jury right?
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It's very simple. I decide that those who don't appreciate the time and effort of Support and GA creators, don't deserve to get anything from me.
I still have a few public Level 0 GAs, but those are mostly for advocacy (for this forum, for good conduct etc), and I fully expect to waste some time rerolling. However, if had to go through this with every GA I simply wouldn't be here.
Levels BTW serve a similar role - they allow GA creators to minimize the numbers of rule breakers, they're just not as effective as SGTools filters. I'm pretty sure if you took away levels, many contributors would stop creating GAs.
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I'm pretty sure if you took away levels, many contributors would stop creating GAs.
i agree, but it serves as if you gave more you can get high chance GA, and is off topic here ;)
I decide that those who don't appreciate the time and effort of Support and GA creators, don't deserve to get anything from me.
you are fully allowed to do that ofcourse. however, i still think it against the site spirit. it all boils down to that
we are way past the reflinks on sgtools original discussion ;)
edit: lets us say i see your point. you can that same thing with groups but it will take more time, and would only reward the active users (or forum seeing users).
sgtools gives you access to more groups. however, i still think that previous re-win or whatever, if served time, should be forgiven
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Yes, this is off topic and comment nesting seems to be broken when you dig (as in "חופר") this deep ;-)
Feel free to share your opinion on the thread I linked above. It deals exactly with the subject of forgiving (or not) for unactivated wins.
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i'm good at digging ;)
but nah, i'll keep it away from there
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I'm pretty sure if you took away levels, many contributors would stop creating GAs.
Sure? After all, it is not that much different than Steam levels. Would that much fewer people collect badges if they didn't have a level attached to them? (Not talking about addicted users like PalmDesert.)
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Well, depends on the definition of "few". I am relatively sure that even my tally on busted people who earnt permanent suspension is at least half dozen, if not more. And that's only me as a single person doing reports.
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I currently have 3 Level 10 GAs for Space Drifters 2D. For some reason they all have 0 entries, just like the previous 5 Level 10 GAs I created for this game. I just can't get rid of it. For any Level 10 GA user who may read this, this is intentional. It's just part of the mechanism I'm using to deliver ungiftable keys.
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you know what's funny? I don't qualify for any of these, and here am defending it still xD
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Everyone (including you) qualify for List 5. I would be surprised if you don't qualify for some of the others (except List 2, which is tough). Have you checked each?
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ah, since my last gib spree I now qualify for list 3, (and 5 too ^^ ) but for the others the ratio_real reqs kill me ;-)
oh wait, seems I cant use list3 either as I never bothered with the key drops threads, lol
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Tristar, you also qualify for "List" 4 if you happen to have any of the games in the other list on your wishlist.
And here's a wild card invite to List 2:
http://www.sgtools.info/giveaways/e5d80e17-445a-11e6-8f87-04019cc0dc01
Enjoy! :-)
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like i said.
you are the one of the few who actually care about the meaning of these rules. and try to be nice about them.
most users just "shoot"
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I don't want to get in the middle here, but I do think Tristar has a point. Level requirement is exclusion, "Invite Only" links are exclusion, sgtools are exclusion, group GA's are exclusion. In my humble opinion group GA's are much more exclusive than most sgtool rules. The only way not to exclude anyone is to make public, level 0 GA's.
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let us agree to disagree then?
i truly see a big diff with private only GA, and SGtools GA.
i also see a diff with groups GA, but i can understand why people disagree with me
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There are different kinds of exclusions of course and it's all pretty subjective, you are certainly entitled to your values so we will agree to disagree.
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Eh, no. It is only part of designed purpose of invite only GAs. By your logic noone should make puzzles (on SG forum), as those too select only few allowed to enter the GA.
Also, invite only allows only selected few to enter when compared to public ones. Adding to that "clean profile" requirement makes it more elitist by a fraction of percent...
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no. puzzles are for those who want to solve them. or "smart" enough to solve them/find them.
it acts as groups in my idea. i.e. some sort of interaction
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And "clean profile" SGT is for those that followed rules or wanted to fix their past mistakes (except of few rare cases where fixing multiwin is now impossible. Creating conditions and a way of fixing that is up to cg. It is possible to do without side damages to anyone)
Tiny, state which rules of SGT you don't accept, because I can't believe that one more click is that much of a problem here. And I don't belive that official "Level 7 or higher" is ok and "Level 6.66 or higher" is not.
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i don't accept none of the SGtools rules.
i pass most of them. not all, but most.
yet i won't ever use them. it is not the "point" of this great site (i'm afraid to say "used to be great", cause there are amazing people here, they got tired)
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i don't accept none of the SGtools rules.
So it's more about doing things the traditional way if I understand that correctly?
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So it's more about doing things the traditional way if I understand that correctly?
i'm always up for progress. i liked sgv2 against sgv1. but this is something else.
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I do understand that someone might not like SGT because of some rules or how some rules are/may be used. Or even no rational reason at all. It is all fine with me.
So far you have said that adding L5+ is ok, but at the same time RealCV>=$500 in SGT is not - and that is exactly the same thing. What other conclusion I could make other than one above? )
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well, that is the same.
but does anyone just uses that? it usually some ratio something, right?
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Most common afaik is clean profile rule. Next one I think is silly ratio of around 0.2 to get rid of "leeches"- that in practice means 1:1 (on average) for Level 1 users, and next to nothing at all above L5-6. This is one part of problem - not thinking throughly what the ruleset really does.
Another one, mentioned by Mullins, is discrimination against users from locked regions. Rationally thinking, it's not they fault, but Valve and publishers. Yet the emotional perception of many row users is different: not only region locked users get cv for a fraction of ROW, but also discriminate all Germans/French/etc by making locked GAs. Tool only exposed it, not caused. Fighting sgt or sgt rules because some use it as revenge weapon is pointless. Only changing that perception can make the difference, otherwise other means will be used (BL, WL, "row only" groups...)
(also, when you think what custom rules were used in SGv1, sgt is mild and tame in comparison)
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(also, when you think what custom rules were used in SGv1, sgt is mild and tame in comparison)
yes, and cg cancelled those rules... but now we have sgtools, so what is the difference?
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the only reason special rules got discontinued in SGv2 was amount of work they were putting on already overkloaded support. not because cg decided they are bad. Support members themselves encouraged to use available tools (like SGT or BL for people not following Description rule) instead of them now that we cannot use them.
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He did. Because enforcing them put too much burden on support staff. At least that's what I remember from beta phase discussions. SGT is neutral to mildly positive in that area...
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At the other hand I've seen a lot of region GAs "exploited" if you may say it this way :> Regional GAs was made in order to give users opportunity to give away locked copies, to fight region locks, but I'cve seen many people using it just to block anyone not from their region from entering, to give a better chance among themselves. I've seen quite a few polish users who made GAs for games from humble etc in description simply saying "screw all non-polish users", I've seen lvl 9-10 people without a single ROW GA, with tens/hundreds of GAs from well known bundles simply put into RU-CIS GAs. Sad but true - community overall brought Region-GA-hate on itself. If people used these GAs the way they were intended to, I guess noone would even think about asking knsys about regional filter. but when you see people exploiting system - giving only RU-CIS GAs (even for ROW keys), while at the same time taking advantage of all ROW GAs, you want to block these people. Sadly all users who use Regional system in a fair way gets caught in the process.
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Well, I don't see region locked GAs as exploits (statement to make things clear for all readers )). After all, purchasing power is not equal to mine (60eur for a game is prohibitive even for me).
For the cases you mention, I've seen them all + few users farming cv from copies not from their region (cheaper ofc.) But that is too small fraction of all users to use blanket rule. BL suffices for that (for now)
I'm afraid, that even if those cases didn't exist, the filter still would be demanded and used (perhaps in lower quantities, but still). It would be caused by emotional, not rational pov
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you got me wrong - I don't see all Region locked GAs as exploits, I made a few region locked GAs myself for gifts that I got elsewhere which were locked and for keys that have polish locks. But I say region locked GAs can be exploited - when you have gift/key which is ROW yet you make region locked GA anyway just to block anyone not from your region from entering. For example in my region 95% of GAs created are not GAs that are polish locked (polish locks are fairly rare and happen to keys only. there was recently a key added to polish magazine which was region locked and I've seen a few GAs made for it, but beside that for last few months all other polish-locked GAs were falsely marked as locked only to give poles better chance to win - I don't believe that was the intention behind having locked GAs (if it was there would be a separate choosable region for each country, including non-locked ones, simply so everyone would be able to make these GAs) thus I believe it is exploitation of the system.
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I understood you as you wanted to be understood ). Seeing how it quickly polarizes into friend-or-foe situation, I thought I'll make it harder and become enemy of both sides for seeing pros and for seeing cons of the sgt ;
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you don't have to become one side or another ;) loom at me ;) I will argue with both ultra-against-users like steffke or MulIins and unltra-defenders ;) I simply believe that while using reflinks (especially hidden reflinks) is morally wrong on knsys part I also believe that SGT is important tool for the community and that it would be unfair to punish anyone using it because there are reflinks this someone is not to blame for (or even not knowing about). We cannot blame someone for unintentional linking to the site containing reflinks, while his obvious intention was something else (in case of SGT it's usually because he wants to share GA with special rules). At the same time we cannot demand from everyone on the internet to remove reflinks only so their page could be linked on SG. We're relatively small community. While something like SGT is solely dependant on SG, thousands of other websites are not. Good luck demanding from IGN removal of reflinks or otherwise you will not allow their links to be posted on SG ;p
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Allies are for pussies!
Signed: Pussycat :p
We are on the same page with the reflinks. It is grey-ish area and it would be good move on knsys part to get rid of them whether he has/will have a-ok from support or not.
And good that you argue. Altough hope is small that a) against-faction understand that banning SGT will only strengthen prejudice against region-locked user and b) pro-faction will notice that throwing in grenades into meeting room to make sure there is no mosquitos is not the best approach to the problem ;
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i don't like sgtools at all. and would never click anything inside it. sadly, if i want some GA, i pass them. leeching is stronger then me.
and no, never made sgtools, and will never do.
but, sgtools is what the user link. and that site is not ref.
if inside of that there are refs, i don't think you can do nothing about that.
what if i posted an ith puzzle, and some of the puzzle had ref links to games, which you need to click to answer the puzzle?
is that the same? i think so.
is that "allowed" based on SG rules? i also think so.
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I think that would be allowed. see my comment below.
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well i try not to argue with support, but the way the rules are written, and the distinction made between gleam without ref, and gleam with. I still think you'd be on the grey side of the rules, where it not specifically against the rules. If you are not forcing them to click the referral to get to the giveaway, or group or whatever. then you arent breaking the rules, my opinion only. Every website you visit, has a referral link somewhere on the thing. So unless we have a rule that says no external links, theres always going to be ref links/
excellent detective work though.
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Well yes, it's a grey area and a cheap way to circumvent the rules. Some time ago there was an user that was posting in all his giveaway descriptions a link to "earn some easy money" or something like that, and it was a blog page with all their referral links listed on it. I don't think they got a suspension, but they were warned to stop doing it.
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Not arguing with you, I agree its a cheap way around the rules. But how is it any different to people who link their monetized youtube channels or twitch streams?
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I don't really know, I don't make up the rules. They're not fully allowed though, just tolerated if it's limited to their giveaway descriptions.
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And I think therein lies the reason this discussion is happening, the rules here are not absolute (which is fine) but they are imposed seemingly at whims at times. Which causes confusion amongst the users about what is and isnt allowed.
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Well yes, it's a grey area and a cheap way to circumvent the rules. Some time ago there was an user that was posting in all his giveaway descriptions a link to "earn some easy money" or something like that, and it was a blog page with all their referral links listed on it. I don't think they got a suspension, but they were warned to stop doing it.
As I understand it from past support comments on the topic:
- What you just described falls under the no advertisement posts part of the ToS. ("unwanted commercial content designed to drive traffic to third party sites [is not allowed]")
- No referral links or links that encourage you to click on referrals are allowed to be posted on the site. ("referral links are not allowed in the community ")
- No special conditions [including referral links] are allowed as a requirement to enter a giveaway ("You cannot ask users to perform any special action in order for their entry to be considered valid, such as liking a Facebook page, or following a Twitter account.")
Gleam.io referrals would be prohibited by 2, though you could make a case for 3 also prohibiting them.
SGT, however, doesn't fit any of the requirements, since the referral links are not directly consequential to the link provided, nor required to gain entry into the giveaway.
And even for people who are sticklers for firm, universally consistent rules, that ought be grey enough that CG should have full leeway on the interpretation.
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tbh steffi I think we have to differentiate about intentional and unintentional reflinking. I'm not sure where I myself stand on SGT dillema, while I believe it's unfair for knsys to use reflinks on a site directly associated with SG, at the same time anyone posting SGT protected GA is not considered reflinker by me. The reason they post this link is because they want to use the system, not because they want people to click reflink. Let me give another example. Let's say I stumble on a news page saying Nitendo is releasing all Zelda games on Steam. I want to share the news with community, because we're gaming community and it's a great news. But the website I find thuis news on has some reflink add at the bottom of the page. I posted the link because I wanted to share the news. Should I be suspended because said page also had some ref olink on it? Doesn't matter if I was aware or not of said reflink, my purpose was posting the news, not reflink. The same way example you give - it's a hypothethical pastebin which sole purpose is to spread reflinks. But you cannot compare it to someone linking something for other purposes, but this thing having reflinks in it.
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good post!
hardlining on the rules is missing it's intent: disallowing refs is to stop all people to spam the forums with that useless stuff just for their own personal gain.
I fully agree with your outlining that the purpose of the linking is decisive.
Otherwise basically all outbound links would need to be forbidden.
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while I believe it's unfair for knsys to use reflinks on a site directly associated with SG, at the same time anyone posting SGT protected GA is not considered reflinker by me.
yes, and that makes the sgtools infraction even worse. he's tricking users into thinking sgtools is clean, and hiding referrals in those deals.
so it's not only a "referral-offense", it's also an exploit, probably against the ToS.
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+1 I don't have problem with SGT imposing extra rules to enter a GA, but them tricking people with hidden ref links is kind of a problem.
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I'm not defending knsys, read the post again MulIins ;p I'm defending users posting SGT links or any other links with intentions other than spreading reflinks. I already believed that suspending someone for posting gleam GA which contained reflink was an overkill (as long as this person was not the one who created said gleam GA) - the intention of someone posting gleam GA was to share GA with SG folks, the intention of someone posting SGT link is to make SGT protected GA, the intention of someone posting a news/blogpost/whatever link is to share information contained in this link. None of these people's intention is to bypass the no-reflink rule. Heck, with various way reflinks can be hidden the vast majority of less tech savvy users may not even be aware of reflink being present on the site they are linking. That's why I believe that punishing users for clearly unintentional no-direct reflinking is a bad solution. Also because there are litrerally thousands upon thousands of websites you can find reflinks on. It's impossible to moderate it the way you are proposing (checking each site anyone linked to make sure there is no hidden reflink anywhere on the site), and forbidding just a few websites is unequal treatment. Why someone linking gleam should be punished and someone linking woobox not, only because we haven't officially said woobox with reflinks is not ok? The only logical way I see is to look at users intentions. If someone posts a link to his pastebin let's say, full of reflinks, or to his blog where each entry is simply a reflink bait - it's clearly an intentional reflinking and should be treated the same way as posting a reflink directly on forums. But if someone links to any webpage clearly with intention other than reflinking (like SGT GA, any mass GA not of his own, news article etc) it should not be considered reflinking, even if said page contains reflinks somewhere on it. Person posting this link has no power over what links are posted on external site he's not managing.
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i was agreeing with you, people posting shouldn't get punished.
i just said the way the refs are hidden, makes the offense even worse in my eyes. it's not just a referral in the site, it's shady.
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i do agree this is shady, and i hope this entire topic causes them to be removed. i just do not understand how we are expected to know these things about other sites. this particular case the user outed themselves essentially. but in many other cases we would never even know, so i do not understand how this rule can be properly enforced. not fighting or arguing the fact that this is rule for good reason, because it is. i just do not see much of a difference between this and youtube. youtube is 100% a referral system, the video creators get paid by amount of hits and clicks within the site. exact same thing.
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i don't know, probably cg doesn't mind videos being posted, even if the creators make money with them.
what i am sure is that g2a and other refs related to gaming sites are not allowed. not because the rules specify it, but based on what i've seen/heard on the forums and giveaways.
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then the rule should be "no relative referral links" or we should be given a list of white-listed acceptable exceptions. again im not trying to argue, but i just do not see how we users are expected to know these things are or are not in the sourcecodes of the sites. or even worse that they are hidden behind url forwarders.
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it's horrible idea - there are thousands upon thousands of websites using reflinks. It would require unimaginable amount of moderation to manage such whitelist. Think bundlelist-management x 1000. Everyone would be afraid to post anything - because you want to post some gaming news, but it turns out the newssite you linked is not whitelisted, has hidden reflink and you yourself get suspended.
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that is exactly my point. this needs to be a all or nothing deal imo.. not favoritism or discrimination towards or against sites. either "no external links" or "no DIRECT referral links" direct= ?ref=53434gfds <- needs to be removed for legit link.
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yeah - this is my idea as well. no direct reflinks on SG, no link shorteners on SG. Eventually no linking to your own external site/document/whatever which only or main intention is reflinking. But we cannot hold users responsible for the fact that someone elses site they linked holds a reflink. Especially as we cannot expect all users to have knowledge how to spot a reflink as well as to deeply check each and every site they ever link.
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yes agree, no url forwarders to bypass the rule, and like it was said before no pastebin links.. all those are clear and understandable entirely.
i understand this instance the site admin basically outed themselves and told us they have reflinks too, so thats why the topic.. but if they had not, we'd of never even known..
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In my eyes it's again the case of intention behind linking anything. The reason while reflinks are prohibited here as well as in most other forums is because if you don't forbid referrals you end up with unimaginable amounts of spam. People want to get personal profit so they post referrals. Other people don't care that same thing already got posted, they will post it anyway just this time with their own referral, because they want profit for themselves. In short time we end up with amount of referral spam that is making normal forum usage impossible, because you will have 100s of referral spam topics/comments per single valid topic. Forum community dies.
Now we get to mentioned YT videos - in 99% if someone links YT video his intention is to share said video with community for whatever reasons, not video monetization. Maybe it's gaming related, maybe it's funny or somehow related to topic someone is posting, maybe it's his favoritue music band he want to share. Point being his intention is not earning money or person who monetize video to earn money, but to share with the community. I bet that if some YTer decided to spam forums with endless flood of links to his videos with pure intention just to monetize them - he'd be dealt with the same as person spamming referrals.
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in theory yes. only my opinion as the current rules are written.
people post SG GA links everywhere. you cannot make someone link on the ref in order to get to the GA (i'm pretty sure that is written somewhere). it is definitely so in order to get the win.
but if it is that obvious it might get frowned upon.
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Referral links are not allowed in the community, and if you choose to post a link, please be sure all referral codes have been removed.
SteamGifts Guidelines.
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Follow up questions. When links on links are/get forbidden, what about isthereanydeal then, as they use refs too?
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I think the larger distinction here, as I've thought more and more about it, with gleam you are forced to click the referral to proceed. With sgtools, isthereanydeal, etc you do not.
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I was always disturbed by those g2a / kinguin links in sgtools pages. Well, now I have a real reason to be :/
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yes, he was right. pity he's banned now while others run rampant.
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Fun fact: he was reported and got permanently suspended by some SGTools haters. ^^
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I totally agree with you. SGTools started as a great idea, but it's trash at this point.
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I like them, make them and enter them. ^^
I made already over a 1000 SGTools giveaways and there's nothing wrong with them as long we don't hear or see any official SG statement about this so I'll just continue to make them.
Some are clearly trying to yell shark in a pool that contains just some goldfish aka much to do about nothing.
To decide if there's something wrong or not with SGTools is up to the real SG support and/or the SG admin CG to decide and not by individual SG users and/or by backseat moderators and/or some SGTools haters that work of a hidden agenda.
Fun fact concerning SGTools: users that don't like/hate SGTools still enter SGTools giveaways as much they can and use them a lot to check their winners.
Edit:
Some SGTools Stats
STATS (20/06/2016)
Number of users: 18.286
Number of users that are giveaway creators: 801
Number of users serving infractions: 37
Number of banned: 13Comment has been collapsed.
SGTools haters that work of a hidden agenda
It's a conspiracy. ;P
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Yes, those are out there and you can find them by looking at their giveaways won. ^^
SGTools giveaways are surely bad except when one wins them. :-p
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Well, the sgtools site doesn't provide the games, but the giveaway creators do. :P I only see it as a way to restrict people from a giveaway, although some things in sgtools, like finding my real cv value, is really useful. ;P But still, I don't even make restricted giveaways here on steamgifts, so don't listen to me, I'm crazy. xD
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I'm no Doctor but for SG you sound just right. :-)
In the end it's really up to the individual giveaway creator to use something or not and make his or her giveaways like he or her wants to.
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I enter sgtool giveaways, I just dont use them myself. I did once to try it out, but after reflection, felt like it didnt fit with my philosophy in giving. But regardless of my opinions about how it gets used sometimes, I recognize other peoples right to use it as they see fit, unless the site rules change. Do I feel guilty winning something with sgtools restrictions, no, do I feel guilty imposing further restrictions on my giveaways, yes.
This was supposed to be a reply to Lost, but meh whatever.
2nd edit, nevermind, it is.
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yeah - I was just curious about the relationship between SG and SGTools - as I see a lot of people using it - personally I have no problem with it, beyond being a bit confused about it all. Hope that makes sense
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Yes it does and I can't imagine that most users are tediously going to check their winners one by one the old school way without using SGTools.
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am I really that alone in just sending the key without checking? someone has won my game! tick send key, never give it another thought. I dont feel like its my job to enforce rules or punish people.
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well, your choice, but in general users are encouraged to check their winners. Because it's the easiest and sometimes the only way to find rulebreakers. There are hundreds of thousands of registered users on SG, tens of thousands daily visitors. and just a few unpaid support members doing their job in their free time. Basically 99% of support system and rules enforcement on SG depends on the community - it's the community who reports rulebreakers, who reports sales in bundle-list spectrum etc, support only verify these and acts depending on them. Without community checking other users system wouldn't work, because it would need tens more support members.
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almost all giveaway related rulbreaking could be automated though, it shouldnt be up to the users, or support. It would also leave support free to deal with other issues. I'm no coder, but I bet I could write a simple script that would compare wins marked recieved, to activated based on last sync. Even barring that, how about just force syncing say 5 min after a key is marked recieved, and if the game isnt activated, temp ban from entering ga's till it is.
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giveaway related rulebreaking could be automated though
my saying too, but staff fully aware specifically chooses the manual approach
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steam API bugs very often, GL having whole community temp-banned every time it bugs. Not to mention many games not reported by it as owned (look at SGT forum thread - it's full of reports about games to be whitelisted from the tool as false positives because of Steam API). If Volvo gave a damn about their API and made it work it would be great, but it's very unlikely to happen, and until then, everything will need manual verification.
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but we 'as the whole community of sg for the most part' have accepted sgtools as accurate enough, if knsys agreed, we could set the automation to use his rule checkers, which would eliminate a good portion, and leave only the false positives for support. But I do get the base idea of steams api not being reliable.
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I can only speak for myself and for me it's no rocket science: if I have the choice between gifting to someone that abides to the rules and someone that breaks the rules, like not activating or re-gifting than I choose the first.
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oh yeah, this so much, in old sysrtem I would check for rulebreakers only if my winner has less than 50 wins, anything more I'd just skip as rulebreaking check would take too much time....
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Yes, they do save a lot of time and also when one does trains. :-)
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indeed - that is the main reason I use it - to do some checking - I was recently told I know nothing about how SG works and so shouldn't comment about something, which is probably true to be honest :), but when I used SGtools to check that person hey have unactivated wins on their account - so I figure pot and kettle muchly and just moved on... we give what we can, when we can, and I think that any tool that may have its issues also has its merits :) and as long as that continues to be true I'll use it
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It's a matter of principle. It's not about if sgtools is good or bad. People who blacklist other people for something that they also do and even regularly is awkward .
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It's up to the individual giveaway creator to use something or not and make his or her giveaways like he or her wants to. Tools that can be used for that are SGTools (requirements), low or high CV requirements, group giveaways, private giveaways, puzzle giveaways, encrypted giveaways, hidden giveaways, forum nominations, whitelist and blacklist, ...
The same goes about blacklist and whitelist, it's up to the individual SG users to use them or not however they want to.
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You are right. I don't mind SGTools at all. I just wanted to say that it is about users who think this "this rule has to be obeyed 100% and those who dissobeyed it deserve to be blacklisted or reported" and these same people, in fact, do do same because their sgtools links also break the rules.
So that's not about using sgtools, it's about "We should practise what we preach."
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That's just a warning, I use a warning myself to warn invalid entries to go through the SGTools gate and I'm backed by the fact that theres a 4 strike rule concerning SGTools and that invalid wins are granted a re-roll by the official SG support.
And I can confirm out of own experiences that SG support really re-rolls the invalid wins.
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I didn't talk about you at all. I talked about the people who blacklist, for example, a newbie just because the newbie posted one link with referal and they themselves use also referal links.
I don't think you do this. I don't have anything against you. I just wanted to explain you that for some people the problem is not sgtools but some people who blacklist or report people for something they also do and even regularly.
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You should already know that everyone can do with his or her blacklist and his or her whitelist what he or her likes to do with it.
You're playing unofficial SG support as you already decided that SGTools is breaking SG rules but you forget that It's up to the official SG support and/or the SG admin CG to decide that or not.
https://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/Q2Ad1/just-some-ranting#JqLnHLy
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Sorry I don't think you understood me. If there is a rule "no referal links" and something is referal link, then it means the the something is agaist the rule. It is not playing on support, lol.
All I wanted was to HELP you to understand why someone could complain aboit it. And all you are doing is attacking me.
Sorry, I don't want to continue this. Bye, have a nice day.
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Time will tell who doesn't understand something here and that official SG support and/or Cg will decide if there's something wrong or not with SGTools. My personal guess is that Stefkes ticket will be closed without any or limited action taken.
Have a nice day too.
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I don't hate sgtools at all, I think it's a pretty useful tool but there's clear evidence that the creator uses hidden referral links for his own gain. How much of a problem that is, is up to you. But I support steffke, because I wasn't aware sgtools did this since very recently. I'm more so disturbed by the fact he hid the referral links, than that he uses referral links. It's deceitful at the very least. So I applaud steffke for raising awareness about this issue, whatever someone does with that information is up to them.
Not entering sgtools protected GA's doesn't change anything so there would be no point (other than a purely idealistic one), not making sgtools protected GA's does make a difference. I'm not here to tell anyone whether to use sgtools or not, but it wouldn't feel right to me personally.
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Totally agree with that first paragraph. I'm really glad she made me (and others) aware of the ref links.
That said, I like using SGTools for user verification and basic rule-breaking checks. It saves me and Support a lot of time. As long as cg/Support think the ref links are okay, then I guess it's okay with me, even if I don't like that they were added.
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Heh, isn't steamgifts doing exactly the same thing anyway? xD It's like that, if you have a site, you can put ref links, but don't put any if you're a humble user. So, steamgifts and sgtools can put ref links, but the users can't. Honestly though, I don't really care if they want to put ref links (it covers some of their costs), but then, don't start "lynching" people that put ref links here too. :/ It's like a parent saying to a kid that he mustn't smoke, but the parent smokes like a chimney. :P Am I incorrect about something? Can you demand something that you don't even follow?
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Yes, like tell a kid not to drive a car while the parent can. Or boss / manager do something one of the workers can't. There are things called hierarchy / rules / laws. Despite how it seems, CG is NOT like you and me, because he's the site's owner.
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It's not hierarchy. It's called supremacy, with the bad meaning of this word. Like saying "I can do whatever I want, but you'll only do what I want". Everyone must follow the same rules or else there's no equality. And since I believe in equality, I insist that everyone should follow the same rules. Even in the army, everyone had to shave, everyone had wear a hat outside, everyone had to wear the necessary clothes of their rank, everyone had to follow the rules in general. Or else, if a superior would demand us to shave, but he wasn't even shaved, he would end up with a penalty.
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nah, youre wrong. websites are not republics, or democracies. They are dictatorships plain and simple. The owner(s) decided what is and isnt allowed, and can do whatever they feel like. If you dont agree, they can and may, just say, **** you, I dont want you here... permaban. Not that things are that extreme here, but the concept is the same at any website.
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I agree with your logic. It's true, sites are more like a dictatorship. In the end, the admins choose who to help, who to ban, what rules to follow, what rules not to follow, whatever they want. :/
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You picked the least hierarchy releated thing from the whole army, equality that's not how an arguement works. High rank officers take part in battalions, right? The head of the whole army sleeps the same way soldiers do, right? I guess not. Also don't forget that rules are implemented on officers because others even higher decided that that's the way it goes. If you're the "bottom" of the hierarchy, you can not demand change. Neither as a simple user on a private site, nor as a soldier from the whole army.
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There's a difference between rules and privileges. There's not a rule saying that I should sleep in a bunk bed, but it's just the normal thing to do. Once, I had slept in a couch in the army though. And another guy had slept on the floor. :P But the rules must be followed by everyone, even the ones at the top of the hierarchy system.
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I really don't see the problem, there is no referral in the link that is posted. I have entered hundreds of sgtools giveaways and I have never clicked on a ref link, therefore nobody is posting ref links when they make sgtools giveaways. Those are basically just ads on the webpage. Just about every webpage ever linked here probably has some kind of ad on it where if you click that ad someone makes money. You are not required to click on the ref link to enter the giveaway.
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yeah - that is true - that is why I don't have a problem with it, because I am not forced to click on the links, I was just curious about the tool and it's relationship to steamgifts - as I didn't even know that they were not run by the same person :)
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Well the referral links are hidden, that's the purpose of hiding something :p It basically comes down to whenever you click on the G2A link in a sgtool giveaway (not the google ad btw) and buy something from them, the creator of stgools get's a small amount of money.
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I understand this and I don't see any problem with it because that link is basically just an ad on the page and nobody is required to click on it to get to the giveaway. I don't think that is any different than any other ad that could be on the page. He put an ad on the page trying to sell you something on another website and if you click on it, he makes some money.
If you can't link to a page with ads on it that give someone money, then you basically can't post a link to just about any webpage. Again, these ads or links have nothing to do with getting to the giveaway, they are just an optional distraction on the page that almost nobody clicks on just like any other webpage.
If I have a blog, am I not allowed to post a link to it here because it has ads on the page that make me money if someone clicks on them? Am I not allowed to post a link to a youtube video I made if it has ad monetization on it?
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I suppose it's the deceptive nature of hiding the referral links that makes the difference, while with an ad it's clear. And even if you click the link and don't buy anything you are now part of his "team". As long as you don't clear out your cookies he'll continue to make profits from you whenever you make a G2A purchase. But I agree that there's a fine line between what an ad is and what a referral link is, but there still is that small difference. Ads are fine but referral links aren't according to this site's rules.
The second thing is what MuIIins said, equality for all. The rules state you can't have any links with referral links in them (ads are fine though), that rule should apply to everyone and not just some people or you don't have equality.
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it's the same with gleam giveaways posted here.
you didn't need to click on the top referrals, yet people got suspended for sharing those giveaways and threads closed.
the fact is there are referrals in sgtools deals and the rules forbid that. excuses aren't valid. ;)
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I thought gleam was't allowed because some of the tasks that you have to complete in order to get the game contained referral links. I feel that would be against the rules, but this is different because it is not required to get to the giveaway.
A referral is no different than an ad on a webpage. An ad is just a link in the form of a picture that has a referral hidden in the link so that the website creator makes money when you click on it, this is exactly the same. You are not required to click on these links to get to the giveaway, they are just ads on the page.
I am not defending sgtools because I care if it is allowed or not, I just don't feel that this is breaking any rules and I don't think it is any different than any other webpage that has ever been linked on this site. Just about every webpage has referral links on it including this one right now in the ads on the top and bottom of the page.
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the rules are pretty clear since there are no exceptions, no referrals means no referrals.
sgtools have hidden referrals = it breaks sg rules. there's no way around it.
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But there is no referral posted in the link. You are talking about an ad on the page that has nothing to do with getting to the giveaway.
Every ad on every webpage is a referral that makes the webpage creator money when you click on it. So I guess no links to any webpages outside of SG are allowed to be posted then. Again, what about the 2 referrals that are posted on this page right now?
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What you perceive as an ad is actually a referral link in this case (this is where the hiding part comes in). Ads aren't referral links though (but they're very similar).
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I really don't see a difference. You post a link that refers the person that clicks on it to another website that sells something and the person that originally posted that link gets money for referring them. Every ad that you can click on that brings you to another site is just a referral link in the form of an image.
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The biggest difference between the two is that ads are embedded in a website (and therefor not accessible to most users), so it only benefits the site owner. Ads are also mostly passive and always clear, while referral links can be misleading. If someone posts a link with ads, most of the time they aren't profiting from the ads (since they don't own the website), while the purpose of referral links is always to get personal gain.
Another difference between the two is that referral links aren't blocked by ad blockers, which is the reason the creator uses them from what I've read. And as I said before, in the case of G2A after you click on of the sgtool links you are now a "member" of his team and as long as you don't clear out your cookies he'll continue to make profits from you whenever you make a purchase.
In this case they are represented as ads, while they are in fact referral links which aren't allowed on this site. So for me personally it's about the deceptive nature and the equality towards all users.
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But there is no referral posted in the link.
don't confuse ads with referral links. sgtools has both.
the first is "allowed", referrals aren't.
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Again, I don't see a difference, isn't every ad a referral? Every ad that links you to another website has to have some sort of referral in it to tell that site who referred the customer to them.
You click a referral which takes you to another site and that site is told who referred you to them. The person that referred you gets paid.
You click an ad which takes you to another site and that site is told who referred you to them. The person that referred you gets paid.
Is there a difference? Is there any reason why one should be allowed and the other should not? Is this even about the ref link or is it about a grudge against sgtools? I personally don't care about sgtools one way or the other, I just don't understand what the big deal is about a referral/ad on a webpage that nobody is required to click on. It seems pretty irrelevant to me considering it has nothing to do with getting to the giveaway.
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*edit* Seems like having low PE affected my vision, there's the message just I missed it, sorry.
It's just weird for me that there are so many sites that say " Hey, we see you're using ADBlock, but we need some revenue to continue making awesome stuff you like, please whitelist this site" and SGTools just skipped it and using ref links because people are using Adblock. SGTools works nicely, and used widespeaded by a lot of legit SG users, maybe it would worth at least a try to ask them. ( For example Nexusmods asks nicely to whitelist, or you have the opportunity to pay 2$ to hide all ads forever: And the site is awesome, they do deserve at least whitelisting, as it costs nothing for the user)
hope you weren't talking about suspension-vacation Steffke - have a good vacation!
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afair knsys was asking for people to WL SGTools in adblock when the whole SGT project just started - back then there were no GA rules, sales section etc, just a tool to check non-activations, multiwins and Real CV. But a lot of people block ads anyway. A lot of people on the internet have no idea or concept that running a sitre actually cost real money. They see thousands of sites available for free and don't even think or want to think that they may cost some money ;)
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SGTools just skipped it
lol? that notice was and still is there
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Dammit, I feel stupid now. ADBlock was on by definition, and I never checked the sidebar of the site :| Like absolutely focusing only the middle part of the site, I thought I have it whitelisted and that's why I don't see any message about it. Well, I guess I need special glasses.
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It's just weird for me that there are so many sites that say " Hey, we see you're using ADBlock, but we need some revenue to continue making awesome stuff you like, please whitelist this site"
A bit off-topic, but I read once that sites are not allowed to check if you use Adblock or not in the EU (not sure about other places). I've not seen anything done about it neither do I really care about it, but it is an interesting thing.
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In short
cg needs more money to run server / make GA
So, we should tell cg to make premium user (no ads for premium user) xD
Joking asides
This isn't holiday season right?
Well.. Enjoy your holiday! ^^
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STG is not the same as SG. In this case it's about SGT, which is run by someone else. Technically it's not allowed, but it seems to me like people are not willing to do anything about it....
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I guess my philosophy is that if it's okay with cg/support, then it's okay with me. But I understand your rant, and understand why folks might not want to use SGTools (for any of a variety of reasons). But I think SGT provides a great service.
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But have cg/support ever said they're okay with it? I don't remember ever seeing them say they are. This is the first time this really has come to light...
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Agreed completely-- which is why I'm so glad that steffke and others have brought it to light (and presumably reported him). The banhammer might be incoming. cg might require changes for it to be "sanctioned." Or maybe cg is okay with it because the links (presumably) are just to pay for the site (which provides a service), and not to profit from.
Obviously it would be nice to get an official word at some point...but in the meantime the individual can decide whether s/he wants to use SGT.
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I never did like SGTools, hence why I never used it for my giveaways. I can kinda understand why someone would use it, especially if you do a lots of giveaways and deal with lots of rule-breakers or something like that, but personally I always felt that it promotes elitism. Not sure if that's the right word to use in this context, but it sounds somewhat appropriate.
"You can't join if you don't give 3x more in real CV than won"? Heh, I remember when the amount of comments a user made and how active/friendly they were on the forum was all that really mattered. Things sure changed a bit since then.
Personal rant alone, I'm not saying that SGTools shouldn't exist. It is extremely useful when it comes to verifying users, and it was a good idea - I just feel like it has changed for the worse in the time between its release and now, and I can no longer approve of this system, simply because I don't like it. But hey, it's not like my opinion matters. I don't enter forum giveaways therefore no SGTools giveaways, or at least, very rarely. I respect everyone equally when it comes to giveaways - it's not because you use SGTools that I'll dislike you, I'll just dislike SGTools. :P
This is pretty much the first time I publicly state my opinion on SGTools, so although I may have been quiet about this in the past and some people may have been under the impression that I didn't mind about SGTools, I thought that this thread was an opportunity for a random morning rant, so this is my opinion. Make of it what you will.
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promotes elitism
nope, counter-example
user decides how they use it, blaming the tool is amiss
I remember when the amount of comments a user made was all that really mattered.
oh, you mean when you were declared as non-worthy for having more ga-entries than comments? (aka thanks-spam being mandated) Yah, "good" times..
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Okay so, what I failed to specify is that SGtools isn't always being used in a way that I disapprove. Just that in some case, it does. Most of the people who use SGTools use it scarcely (simple rules) and that's fine with me I guess.
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What you remember can be counted as elitism as well. Someone not commenting enough is not good enough in your example - how is it not elitism? Not to mention things like groups with requirements, or custom rules in private GAs which ewere around years ago in SGv1 long b4 I even joined the site. and aren't level-restricted GAs elitist as well? Why cannot this lvl 0 user enter your latest lvl 3 GA? You darn elitist! ;p Thing is - some form of elitism and GA restrictions have been around on SG for years, SGT didn't change it - all it did was to give people easy-to-use tool to do the same thing that would require a lot of work before, nothing less, nothing more.
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Good points. That you appreciate SGTools is fine, it's your opinion and I respect that. I'll still always be a bit reluctant towards SGTools though, not that this fact may affect the future of the tool at all - I see no reason why SGTools should be removed from SG, even if some people dislike it.
My comment really is just ranting, nothing much more than that. :P
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Promotes not more than nomination threads (often with extra rules) or level system.
For me it would be intent behind the rules that counts. "10:1 ratio - you guys are fking awesome" vs "get lost, peasants"
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promotes elitism and racism to a degree.
region-ratio is the worst filter ever implemented.
you are a peasant that can't buy row gifts?
.
*slaps once for not being able to buy row, slaps twice for not being able to enter giveaways*
thanks!
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Pretty much exactly how I feel. I only use it to check users on rulebreaking after my GA ended. And if you want to reward users that give much, you can just as well make GA's for higher levels. Sure, they may have won a lot as well, but why should that matter?
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Never used SGTools but I don't see it as a referral link, it doesn't direct you directly to a storefront so it's not like other referral links which do so? I must admit I'm not completely au fait with SGTools though.
As for rules, everyone should abide by the same rules and so should everything. If it does break the rules its time for a rules change or amendment or banning of SGTools.
I still shout for a sticky "referral" thread or an extra "referrals" category.
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SGT is not a referral, but it has ref links on the page, which is the problem here.
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I primarily use it for checking my public GAs. I have used it for trains, but usually for the basic rules, and with time expiration for multi win infractions. Without the rule checheckeI would likely have to give away a lot less, at least at once. Even on level 6+ I have found users who had infractions that had not served suspension yet, sometimes for multiple transgressions. That said, I have had many successful lower level GAs as well. It will be a simple fix to take out ref links if it is ruled that way. I have it whitelisted in my ad blocker already. Curious how this will turn out.
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