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3 months ago
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yes I know but this is the best dlc of all those

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How the best was calculated?

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If ( Bethesda ) {
best = true;
} else {
best = false;
}

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If Doom OST present
best = true
else = false

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This checks out.
Totally proficient in programming and stuff

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As an additional note, pretty much all of the FX and FX3 tables are on sale and they've upped the double-dip discount on the legacy packs. You can get most of the legacy packs for about $3 without already owning the FX3 tables (i.e. Three tables for FX and FX3 at ~$0.50 each). It's a good way to fill out your Williams collection.

3 months ago
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Thanks for letting me know about the double discount on the legacy packs. I picked up 5 tables (2 packs) for $3.

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Bump, still on sale

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This is how you turn a, let's be kind and say, $30 pinball game into a $91 game at 70% not including their 9.99 dlc that's not even on sale atm, so technically $101 given current prices. Better game than elden ring, spiderman, cyberpunk, baldur's gate, rdr2, you name it. They don't even sell AAA titles for this price. I guess only the kinds of train sim, cities skylines, sims, will manage to overvalue their content more.

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It's allowed to only buy the individual and different tables you actually want, not just *buy everything*. Same with the train sims, where it's really popular to laugh at prices. Complaining about it being expensive while not even being interested in it / the whole package is a big fad, as comparing incomparable games :P

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I mean, I always want the whole game and I'm not sure why I would want my game missing parts. I'd always opt for a full game vs an incomplete one. If all the packs came to what a game of this type would normally be priced at, I wouldn't have complaints. But I expressed my opinion that the price of this game at 70% off still exceeds AAA titles at full release by over 33%. We could probably look at what these are priced without sales, and then it's full retail price is going to look absurd. I don't think it's unjustified at all to call them greedy and at least make fun of it. I mean they're the ones that are doing this when they could've released the game complete.

If some think I'm in wrong for believing that games should come complete for around $60 or $70 inflation adjusted(lmao), then that's okay with me. I'd still rather not be on the side who justifies this kind of practice.

3 months ago
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Having a different table in a pinball game has nothing to do with being incomplete, if you can put away the consumerist world view. You can buy only the parts you like/well received. Or pay more for everything, while not even using / actively dislike parts of it.

"Needing" all the DLC is just a manipulative technique used by devs/publishers at the end of the day.

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Of course having different tables doesn't mean it's incomplete, in fact having multiple options makes it more complete and it would be a good sign. The problem with this model is that the games are incompletable. To complete said games you will have to overpay absurd amounts that make no sense. Not sure why anyone would defend that practice.

The idea that you get just what you want is a bit ridiculous, because for the $30 I would spend on one of the best pinball games out there, I can't even get half of the game at 70% off. So you're basically suggesting someone buys an incomplete game and only plays parts of the game, or goes way above the price of a AAA title to enjoy the full release. No reason why anyone would reasonably pay $91 at 70% to enjoy going from star wars, to indiana jones to doom to whatever else. Each lego game is like $4.99 atm right? You can buy the lego games for instance each for 20 hours of content for that price. Doubt anyone can get 20 hours of seeing new things in those pinball machines, but maybe I'm nuts. It's also a 6 year old game, and they're also 70% off again, this isn't their full price. I get someone playing pinball for 50 hours, but it will never compare to a whole story made game. So I was being kind suggesting this was worth $30 for the full package since they're not innovating, it's not a new game, but I do think it's one of the better pinball games out there, and the other ones are like $1 to $10. I was willing to give this one 3x the price, although there is another one that has even more tables and they're $1.49 each or less I think.

They already have the engine made. It's not rocket science for them at this point, they're not reinventing whole code every time for the $4 so it's not like they're starting from scratch. It's not like they don't know what a pinball table does and they have to go through the process every time of how a pinball machine works. It's been done for almost 100 years. There's other pinball games that offer multiple tables some free, some paid, some vr, nothing about this is special other that it has licensed content. Maybe that's why it's so expensive, rather than provide well priced content, they spent it all on the license in the hope that the users fall for it, and I guess they do.

I'm not saying they need to keep adding content to the game until the end of time for free either(I mean heck, imagine making a new game once in a while rather than run something dry and expire it, this is from 2017), but their dlc is way overpriced, that's it. There are good ways to do dlc's and expand on the game with actual value. I mean I gave it a price range for about $30 out of kindness. As I mentioned, at 70% off you can't even get it for less than $91, and if you include it's newest dlc you're at $101.

Sure they're themed dlc's tables, it's legit 4 tables in the one mentioned above. Fortnite does a much bigger update every 3 months with their map and game modes and releases their battle pass for $10, which can be endlessly earned back and more, so for $10 for fortnite, you can earn infinite skins basically, but for this game it's too difficult for 5 years now and couldn't be bothered to release a new game for 6 years now, instead they'll sell 4 themed tables by basically stealing someone elses game idea and turning it into a pinball table, something they've done for the past 6 years, at $10, same price that fortnite provides a 50gb patch for.. As much shit as fortnite gets from people for instance, its living proof that people like to give it shit for no reason. Cyberpunk released a $30 dlc with 25+ hours of story content, no mans sky's been through like 5 years of free updates now and gave a full on free vr version.

Like no one is gonna sit here and say these pinball dlc's took more effort than any of those other games without sounding a little funny. We know that's not the case. I see things based on how others do too, and I am willing to give a little bit of leeway. Game is popular it's not like it has to maintain high prices to meet some quota. It's just pure greed.

So yeah, I get you when you say ""Needing" all the DLC is just a manipulative technique used by devs/publishers at the end of the day.". Just because they do it, doesn't mean it should be acceptable, ok, justified, etc. Still a scummy tactic at the end of the day, so in my opinion, a very bad deal.

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Generally I would agree with you, I hate when paid games have like 50 DLC, but here every table is essentially its own game. You can think of Pinball FX as the platform (free to play), selling the individual games as DLC. It's not a usual game that you can "play through". Similar to something like the Sega Mega Drive & Genesis Classics collection on Steam. As a Portal fan for example you can just buy the Portal table, and you don't need any of the other tables unless you want to play those.

If you buy a real life pinball table it will cost you around $10k and you just have that single table to play. And despite that people still buy them.

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what about achievements? if you bought one table do you only get its achievements? it seems to me that it cannot be considered a platform with individual games, it is just a way to force people to buy other dlcs.

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Other game platforms work the same way. In the Sega Classic Collection, for example, each game has its own achievements.

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It is okay for us to have different opinions I was just expressing my concerns.

It wouldn't be wrong to say that people with overwhelming wealth buy bugattis just to drive them at the speed limit on the roads and show off because I mean what else can you do with it? Sure those things you can drop money on exist like 10k pinball tables. Heck I collect physical video games, so I'm fully aware of expensive collector's items. Doesn't mean that's the standard release, unless you're suggesting that this is a collector's game and only those who collect pinball digital games should buy into it if they want the full experience. That thought bothers me tbh because I mean, I would like my games complete and it doesn't advertise itself as being some luxury item that only the rich can buy for $15k a dlc or something, although steam lets them price it at whatever they want. So they're trying to find just the right amount they can still fool people at and still make sales, but when you add it all together, it's over the price of a AAA game, but provides way less content.

I don't expect to go to mcdonalds and order a cheeseburger and have it come without the buns or cheese because I didn't get the "complete edition" for passionate burger enjoyers and the cheese mcdonalds dlc. Can you find a burger worth $1000 somewhere? Of course someone figured how to take advantage of someone trying to show off. Is it actually worth $1000? Of course not, not even close.

"here every table is essentially its own game" The problem with this, is that certain elements are already designed and hard coded. How the ball interacts with most elements is already done. Sure they add a few for novelty and animate a few things, use a few textures to theme it a certain way, but not a whole game in itself. It would've been a whole game in 1985 on dos maybe, we're in 2023.

If I procedurally make a sudoku game where each time you load into a new game it uses ai to generate a new random ass background, I have it select sounds at random from a library of like 30 000 sounds, and I load 30 000 fonts cc0, and then I add 50 extra mechanics to a sudoku game that basically ruin the sudoku and rotate through these options procedurally so every time you load in it looks like a "whole new experience", is it fair for me to charge you 50 times or 30 000 times? Not saying they procedurally generate anything, but just saying they have the core mechanics done, it's copy pasted. Sure they're themed things, but like 80% of the content is done by using a prefab of what the basic pinball machine is.

If they loved this game so much, they could consolidate the dlc's and turn it into a pack and keep it's value under $60 assuming it had plenty of new content and it's been graphically updated. I mean if "every table is essentially its own game", why don't they release one with a super cartoony look, one with realistic look, one with unreal engine 5.1, one that's so big that it doesn't even fit on the screen. They could add new dlc's to the base game, rather than keep pushing out dlc's increase the game's total price. In reality is it's just a copy paste base engine with a few minor graphical changes and a very small amount of added content. There isn't that much variation in these pinball machines. It's not like you're going to buy another dlc and it's a whole new fresh experience and you have to relearn the controls.

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Something that's getting overlooked here is that with the exception of the ZEN Original tables, all of these are licensed products (either from Williams or from a movie/TV studio). While they live together in the game, I imagine the contracts involved are pretty hefty (particularly from The Mouse). I can't imagine Disney liking the idea of their products "bundled" with Dreamworks for a single price. I'm sure it makes the legalese much simpler when the Universal and Bethesda games are distinct line item purchases from the Comedy Central and Gearbox ones.

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You pretty much nailed it. Each table is it's own game, the FX client is just hosting the games and adding features like tournaments etc.

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So you would be ok if they released each DLC as a stand-alone games for 20-30€ each, instead? (each DLC has 2-3 tables, other stand-alone pinball games charge 15€ or more and have only 1 table, and their quality is lower than Pinball FX). You wouldn't be complaining then, as each game is "complete". Ironic as that model would make it a lot more expensive.

You're comparing the price of a single AAA game, with 10 years worth of content (many of the tables come from Pinball FX2, and you get the FX3 table upgrades for free).

Pinball FX is just a platform for pinball tables. You're not expected to own them all. I'd even discourage you to do that, as completing a single table will take you many many hours (a lot of practice, learning each table's rules, and some luck).

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Of course I wouldn't be okay with those prices at individual tables, I already mentioned why. Most pinball games on steam are like free - $10 and they include multiple tables. So that wouldn't make sense, right?

"You're comparing the price of a single AAA game, with 10 years worth of content (many of the tables come from Pinball FX2, and you get the FX3 table upgrades for free)." This sounds ridiculous and you know it. I honestly don't even know if it's worth explaining why, but if you'd like I will. It basically boils down to this not even being an AAA in the first place with it's 10 years of updates.

"Pinball FX is just a platform for pinball tables." That's exactly what I'm saying. It's just an engine used to copy paste and make more tables. That's fine, doesn't mean each table is worth full prices again, because it comes by default with all major functionality done and support for anything they add.

Not sure what you mean by completing every table, but I'm assuming it's not a story mode and probably some goals like steam achievements or in game grindy luck things which I would never care for in a game. If I played a pinball game I'd play for some fast quick fun.

Still, just because I'm not expected to own them all, doesn't mean I don't look at a game and want it all. If they were so special, maybe they should release them as individual games. But for as much content as you say they have and how many hours it takes to complete them, I did a lookup of one table(the indiana jones one) on youtube and it's videos that have like 30sec-5min, and then 20-30 min videos. Did another search for just tables in general and yeah 30 mins seems to be the average. So just a quick game basically? I mean a random search for "sudoku walkthrough" reveals random people solving a sudoku for about the same amount of time. If I do the same search for cyberpunk though, whole different story.

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Of course I wouldn't be okay with those prices at individual tables, I already mentioned why.

So you're ok with 15€ games with a single table, but 3€ per table is bad because they're DLC? Can't you see how that logic is completely broken?

Most pinball games on steam are like free - $10 and they include multiple tables. So that wouldn't make sense, right?

Which one? Most pinball games on steam have the same model as Pinball FX: a free client and tables as DLC. They're all pretty much have the same prices: an average of 3-4€ per table, the same as FX (9-10€ per DLC, with 3 tables per DLC), so what are you trying to compare it to?

Full games are rare on Steam:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/287900/Pro_Pinball_Ultra/ single table, 15€ (there are 4 games in the pro pìnball series, each a single table, but only this one is on Steam, which is a remake of Timeshock).
https://store.steampowered.com/app/595960/Pinball_Wicked/ single table, 10€ but still EA
https://store.steampowered.com/app/422510/DEMONS_TILT/ single table, 16€
https://store.steampowered.com/app/2008980/XENOTILT_HOSTILE_PINBALL_ACTION/ single table, 15€

Not sure how 3€ per table is expensive, and now with most DLC's on sale for 3€ or less, that's 1€ per table.

That's fine, doesn't mean each table is worth full prices again, because it comes by default with all major functionality done and support for anything they add.

Why? do you even know the difficulty of designing a single table? All graphics are unique to each table, physics are also different. Sound, voices, music. Having a base engine to reuse allows them to sell each table for 3€ instead of 15€.

Still, just because I'm not expected to own them all, doesn't mean I don't look at a game and want it all.

That's more of a you problem. When you go to a toy shop, you also want all the toys for 60€ or you complain to the owner?

Not sure what you mean by completing every table, but I'm assuming it's not a story mode and probably some goals like steam achievements or in game grindy luck things which I would never care for in a game. If I played a pinball game I'd play for some fast quick fun.

So you don't even know how pinball works. Yes, pinball tables have a mission system (not just in this game, the real life ones work the same way), and there's a final goal/objective to complete, with several intermediate objectives. The rules tend to be quite complex, and it takes a lot of time and practice to finish it. I guess you can compere them to a rogue-lite without the procedural generation.

I did a lookup of one table(the indiana jones one) on youtube and it's videos that have like 30sec-5min, and then 20-30 min videos. Did another search for just tables in general and yeah 30 mins seems to be the average. So just a quick game basically? I mean a random search for "sudoku walkthrough" reveals random people solving a sudoku for about the same amount of time. If I do the same search for cyberpunk though, whole different story.

That's like looking up for a Hades run, seeing it's only 30 minutes, and coming to the conclusion the game is that short. Assuming the videos you watched actually complete the final objective of the table, that's only the good try after tens of hours (I'm not exaggerating, it takes a lot of time to do) of practicing and figuring out how to achieve it. The same way a new player will take 15-20 hours or more to kill Hades, even if that final run is only 30 minutes.

Reading you, you don't even seem interested in the genre, so I'm not sure what's your point. You seem to just want to own a complete collection of the game for the sake of owning it. There's no way you'll be able to play 100+ pinball tables. Just don't try to buy everything at once, buy some DLC, play those tables, when you get bored of those, buy some more. There's zero point in wanting them all at once.

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"So you're ok with 15€ games with a single table, but 3€ per table is bad because they're DLC? Can't you see how that logic is completely broken?"

Did I say I was willing to spend $15 on a single table? I said I was if they were that unique using different engines with enough variation,, but they aren't. I did say I was willing to spend $30 for the complete package of this game, but not $91. Everyone is entitled to judge the value of something in their opinion, so am I .It's okay for us to disagree on the value of something doesn't mean I'll be like oh yeah it's totally worth $91 or yeah I totally shouldn't play the complete game. Hell nah, everyone has their own opinions, for me, I'd prefer my game to be reasonably priced, not 33.3% above a AAA title at 70% off for a game that's from 2017, and I like my games to not be missing parts, whether others say I need them or not, that should be up to me to decide if they should be missing or not. It's something we disagree on and that's okay.

I'm glad you were able to find some $15 pinball single table games, but that's not the only games listed on steam. I've mentioned this above too, but if you want, you can list your game for $3000 on steam, you decide it's price, doesn't make it worth it.

I mean heck, for saying how many hours these tables have and how it's no fair to compare them to yt playthroughs, and that pinball fx3 got it's maps ported from fx2 to fx3(so they're not even new), you only got 32 hours in fx3 and 97 minutes in fx2. So I mean even you couldn't have the patience to "finish" a single table or whatever. But then you tell me how much content it has across all tables and how each one is unique and basically a standalone game, yet you didn't want to try another one afterwards. This doesn't really add up.

Value wise, here's some:
https://store.steampowered.com/app/678310/Pinball_Deluxe_Reloaded/ - 12 tables, with customizable tables and mods from what it claims, for $8 at full price.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/262470/Rollers_of_the_Realm/ another one, although probably lacking in options, has multiple levels, I think 30 if I'm correct, and a fully voiced storyline apparently, $10 at full price.
https://store.steampowered.com/app/1886290/Slot_Shots_Pinball_Collection/ 7 tables $10 not on sale.

"Not sure how 3€ per table is expensive, and now with most DLC's on sale for 3€ or less, that's 1€ per table." It's not that $3 on it's own is expensive, it's that they keep pushing repetitive content out, outpricing a AAA by more than 33.3% when they got their tables on sale at 70% off. I guess we see things differently. In your eyes these are so different. To me, they're pinball tables and while it's cool they're themed, I expect them to be pinball tables. I don't see them as going from GTA V, to Sleeping Dogs, to Mafia III. Different engines, different creators, huge insane amounts of work put in, while no copy pasting was done. Here, they start with a prefab already done table, import a model, slap on the textures(which will take some work granted, but it's not like designing a whole city, so it will never compare), but things like the score are already done, the game over mechanic, already done, the ball respawn, multiball, combo, already done, Will there maybe be 1 or two interactions they'll add? Probably, that doesn't make it a whole new game. That's like paying people for each separate modded version of doom, wolfenstein, gta 3, etc. It has some new textures, maybe some weapon interractions have been changed, some models have been changed, etc. They're not whole new games. Not whole new engines. To make it worse(although it's a good thing they're being added), they're porting stuff from fx2 as you said, and selling it at regular price, rather than just make it available as base content in fx3.

"So you don't even know how pinball works. Yes, pinball tables have a mission system (not just in this game, the real life ones work the same way), and there's a final goal/objective to complete, with several intermediate objectives. The rules tend to be quite complex, and it takes a lot of time and practice to finish it. I guess you can compere them to a rogue-lite without the procedural generation."
I literally explained that it's not a story game but rather a score luck goal achievement game. Doesn't mean I don't understand it. I've played pinball games before, but granted not this one. It's an arcade game, not meant to be remembered as well as a story game, so my point stands. Like I'm not going to think, damn I wonder how the 8th multiball is doing, after it fell through the paddles and I wasn't able to catch it cries in 8bit. But you'll probably get some emotion from playing Before your Eyes, spiritfarer, the walking dead, etc. Maybe I don't get it tho, cause you're right, people quit on the walkthroughs after 1 hour in this game. You also, stopped playing after 32 hours, so it's not like the one map you maybe played was that good to make you get others, even on sale, so maybe I am right and you just wanna disagree.

"That's like looking up for a Hades run, seeing it's only 30 minutes, and coming to the conclusion the game is that short. Assuming the videos you watched actually complete the final objective of the table, that's only the good try after tens of hours (I'm not exaggerating, it takes a lot of time to do) of practicing and figuring out how to achieve it. The same way a new player will take 15-20 hours or more to kill Hades, even if that final run is only 30 minutes."
So basically the run is time inflated just to drag on time? Because no one wants to make a playthrough of it on youtube for instance. Like no one found any value in showing others how to do it. You'll basically have to do grindy stuff over and over again, just to reach some bonus ending that the overwhelming majority never will, because lets be honest they just want to play some quick arcade and move on. That probably again includes your plays as well.

"Reading you, you don't even seem interested in the genre, so I'm not sure what's your point. You seem to just want to own a complete collection of the game for the sake of owning it. There's no way you'll be able to play 100+ pinball tables. Just don't try to buy everything at once, buy some DLC, play those tables, when you get bored of those, buy some more. There's zero point in wanting them all at once."

That's your opinion, I'd like to play them and try out the different tables, but not at those prices. In between paying $91 for this game and paying $60 for a brand new game, I'll probably always go for a new game. You're correct if that's what you meant. Like I'd like to play some pinball, but I'll likely settle for the others. I just shared my opinion that this imo is a bad deal. It's totally cool with me that we got different opinions, but mine hasn't changed yet. Even more so when you can get the open source version of Visual Pinball for free outside steam and you can play hundreds of tables I think, haven't looked into it too much but seems like there's tons of tables(thousands if I'm not wrong). So yeah, this still looks like a cash grab to me, if others can provide that value, but these guys can't even provide much less for half of an AAA after 6 years.

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Leaving aside individual definitions of value, I'm confused about your "full game" concept reigifts. Are you saying that each table should be sold individually for [insert personal value amount here]? In which case, does that mean that if I wanted all the FX tables, I would have over a hundred copies of the FX engine cluttering up my drive? Or, are you saying that the entire collection should be sold as one package for [insert personal value amount here]? In which case, see previous re: licensed products.

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TLDR at the bottom.

I'm saying this should be sold as a package, and although you said to leave the value aside, that's what bothers me the most, because if each dlc was 10 cents, it would've been a different story if the total would've not went over $30 total for instance. So I wouldn't care if they had a million dlc's and they figured out how to price them so it comes to under $60, or in my case around $30 considering this is a 6 year old game. If they want to keep putting out tables for a 6 year old game, that's on them. If they want to keep porting tables from fx2 and fx to it that's that. Imo this should've been handled completely differently. A package would've made more sense, and if they add new things, add them to the package, but keep it's price the same or adjust it for how many years the game has been out. There's a reason why you end up buying doom 1993 for like $1.25 on sale or $5 without a sale and there's thousands of mods that work for it, different maps, complete overhauls, etc. I ain't gonna buy the indiana jones table and turn it into the bugs bunny one with a mod or any other variation.

I did say if there were that many different things about the tables that they should make them individual games, but again, this would make no sense as you also state they are running the same engine. Part of why I say these are easier to make than an AAA since at the core they are using the exact same thing and at the end result they are not that different in functionality. I only said they should sell them as individual titles if they really were that different, but they aren't. Just because they're themed differently doesn't change the core mechanics of pinball they have implemented or the fx engine which is used for every single table, which is the exact same across every single table. So in a sense, it was more like a trap suggestion for them to make them individual games, because that's not a proper solution instead of what they should really do, but they are too greedy to do it.

My full game concept refers to everything they have put on steam under the pinball fx3 appid, unless you want to include fx2, but I consider those separate games, although they have ported maps from fx2 to fx3 so we're basically threading a fine line with this too, since they're basically remakes with additional content. When you look at a game like cyberpunk for instance, a full game concept to me means the game + all it's playable dlc's available. That's the full package for me. I don't look at this and expect witcher 3 to be included in it, because even though they probably use a version of the same engine with some major modifications, it's not listed on the cyberpunk 2077 page as available dlc for cyberpunk 2077. They're listed as separate games and I think the differences between the two and the work involved in either project can be spotted miles apart. The tables in fx3 are listed as dlc's to a complete game and they look very similar and its hard for me to assume that as much work as goes into 12 fx tables could ever go into making something like cyberpunks phantom liberty dlc for instance.

To reinforce that these are part of the same package even to the developers and they don't look at them as individual titles, the achievements they have on steam (although I am no achievement collector) are regarding the different dlc's. Therefore, without what they themselves, the game makers and releasers of dlc tables, consider the full package themselves, you couldn't complete all achievements in this game. So you would have to buy them all to complete this game, the game is fx3, they can call it a platform but it's just a platform, because it isn't gonna play ping pong for me and tennis, it plays pinball, with their specific rules. For them all to cost $91 at 70% off for a 6 year old game not including the dlc that wasn't even on sale, I don't see why it's surprising I find this ridiculous. Like the developers know fully well what they are doing. If if was so much effort to make a table, they could've released a workshop editor for it, and you would have seen hundreds(but there's another reason why that's not a thing), hence why I hinted at an off steam platform for this, called visual pinball with over 3000 tables if I'm correct, some old, ported, licensed and some made by fans.

So yes, to me the complete package, means anything that expands the base game with content. So Pinball fx3, the f2p version comes with one table I think (steam's down so I can't check), so that's the base f2p game, fine, that's cool it's like a demo, that's no platform, otherwise steam wouldn't even allow it on steam if it didn't come with anything, it would be in software not games, so that's how they played that system, which is cool cause they offer a table for free to play. But the other ones are not individual games, they're just tables done from a prefab that's already been done, and they might have added for some minor functionality here and there. As I mentioned before, this kind of functionality is in general given for free, if you consider the no mans sky patches, cyberpunk's 2.0 mod or whatever, etc. Those are just called love updates. I'm just calling them out for being greedy and shady, and pointing out how it's a bad deal imo. I'm actually surprised there are some who like this. Even fateofone underneath said it was kind sketchy that he'd have to pay $40 for the same tables from fx2 to fx3 with the legacy discount.

TLDR: By full game concept I mean the main game and any playable dlc/s listed on the main game page or linked to it that is dependent on the main game. Sorry if I wrote too much.

3 months ago
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Okay, you want everything for one flat price. As I said, see previous re: licensed products. I don't think you understand how it works when you produce something based on somebody else's IP. Disney is not going to offer a licensing deal that requires people purchasing Disney products to also purchase Universal, Paramount, and Nickelodeon products (the same holds true for all the other companies licensing their brands). Now, we have to break the one game into fourteen different games (see previous re: engine copy clutter). Make that fifteen when they release Game Night.

Then, you want any additional tables to be added free of charge and you think they're going to continue making them? Unless Snoopy was part of an open ended license that allowed an infinite amount of content to be created (hint: it wasn't) then ZEN is going to have to cough up for every copy of Charlie Brown Christmas that they give away without getting a cent of income in return. There would literally be no motivation for them to make any new tables (or replicate more Williams tables).

I get that you don't like the current table prices but without knowing exactly what it costs ZEN to use the big name brands, you can't just attribute that to greed. Licenses are not free. Also, it was shifty of them to not carry over purchases from FX3 but the simple solution to that is not to re-buy tables unless you see value in having them for the new engine.

There is really no better way for them to produce and distribute the products they are making than the FTP/DLC model.

3 months ago
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Right, I don't see this as being so complex as it justifies having individual dlcs just because it's disney themed. If you're suggesting we're paying for advertisements and that's where the value is at, I mean I don't want advertisements in the first place. So technically it would mean a lot more to me if they were able to come up with some original ideas, and didn't have to upcharge and split their content endlessly because of how they make their brand deals.

That, or I'd prefer they release a whole new engine that has some serious improvements over the old one, at least more than every 6 years, rather than keep pumping new dlc's for again a 6 year old game. I don't know if it wouldn't generate them any income, as any new coming user who would get the pack would get a great and greater value. So technically, as they keep pumping content into a 6 year old game, as that's what they want to do apparently, they would still make sales but they should make them as love updates, not new content updates. There's probably a reason why Quake 2 doesn't release new dlc packs in 2023. Maybe they thought that wasn't right. So eventually they made quake 3, and quake 4, and quake champions, although the deathmatch genre has fallen in popularity, but you get my point. They improved on their engine and technology, they weren't pumping 50 dlc's for quake 2.

"I get that you don't like the current table prices but without knowing exactly what it costs ZEN to use the big name brands, you can't just attribute that to greed. Licenses are not free. Also, it was shifty of them to not carry over purchases from FX3 but the simple solution to that is not to re-buy tables unless you see value in having them for the new engine."
It's not just about not liking prices, it's about a whole scheme they got going on that I find greedy and shady and scummy. It's about them pumping so many dlcs, that not even an AAA title can keep up. Long story short, these are low effort pump and dumps. As much effort as someone says goes into these, there's a reason why no company puts out 10 cyberpunks in a year. In 2017 they put out 24 dlc's. You're most likely right, most of the money probably goes to licensing purposes, so people aren't really paying for the game but for the logo, because the game is already done, they're just paying for the themed logo. As for them not carrying tables over, it's just shitty because the same dev now has the fx, fx2 fx3, and soon fx4 platforms. Like they specialize in making their own pinball engine and rarely after many years update it, and even then they can't make previous purchases day 1 compatible with older versions, or add them to the base game or something.

"There is really no better way for them to produce and distribute the products they are making than the FTP/DLC model."
That's something I disagree with, but it's okay for us to hold different opinions.

3 months ago
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Reigifts, I respect the fact that you have different opinions on the subject and I appreciate that your comments are full, articulate explorations of your thoughts (i.e. you're not just trolling) but I think that there are some things about this issue that you really aren't getting. You're discarding a lot of the practical aspects of game design even after seeing a basic explanation for them. Getting a license to make an X-Men pinball game is not "paying for advertisements", Creating a new table is not as simple as CUT: Doomslayer, PASTE: Garfield, GO. Disney is not going to let ZEN leverage the popularity of Star Wars to sell Kung Fu Panda. And most importantly, companies require a revenue stream to continue producing products.

If you're interested in the business, launch an exploration of the industry based on some of the things you've heard about here. If you just think "the rent is too damn high" but don't want to even try to break down why that is to support your theory of greed then you should probably save yourself the effort of getting involved in long discussions about it. Either way, it's been entertaining but I'm off to spend my time on my new tables (~$0.50 each from the sale. Heckova value).

3 months ago
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Right, I think I might've already went over how they paid too much for the licensing and that's why I called it advertising, as rather than come up with an original table, and be able to release it much cheaper, they spent much more on licensing, money with has to go to a different company just for the logo basically. But I think we already went over all that, and I might eventually make something but with visual pinball, it's open source and free and has over 3000 free tables already so I mean yeah. I thought I elaborated pretty well why to me the value wasn't worth it comparing it to a whole new game, but I understand we all have different opinions and that's cool with me. Hope you have fun with the games.

For reference I downloaded fx3 since I already own like over half the tables from the past but never played it, a waste of a 8gb download, because it only reinforced my opinions that it will never compare to an AAA title, and it did confirm either your words or oginer's(don't remember who said it was a grind) as well. You basically have to repeat the same grind endlessly, losing and dragging the time out, unlock and level new abilities, which allow you to get higher scores, etc. and of course the repetitiveness of the engine, which is what I could tell by looking at the trailer so I don't know why I expected something differently. Every table looks the same in design at it's core, and it operates in the same way, run the ball through here. Sure you gotta be good at the game, but it tells you where to put the ball through, you can even look at the tutorial and if you have the patience memorize the 21 or whatever locations that the quests are at. The content is just being dragged out artificially. This would've been the same as GTA V selling the main engine of the game with the tutorial mission, and then selling each individual mission as a dlc. They're not individual games, they're dlc's which is what I predicted a long time ago. Although it wasn't terrible for like 30 minutes across 4 maps for a few million points, granted I'm bad at these games and the questing system sucks and could use some highlighting to point out what it wants you do hit next. But yeah, mid tier, $30 for all content at full price, $15 for everything on sale imo. I understand that we all have our values though, that's mine.

3 months ago*
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Although it wasn't terrible for like 30 minutes across 4 maps for a few million points

That sounds like you just don't enjoy pinball that much. Yes, if you don't enjoy something, you won't find value in purchasing such thing. Nothing new here. You're not the target audience, you can't expect a company to price their product for the people that are not really interested in such product to begin with.

I don't enjoy GTA, so 15€ for GTAV when it's on sale is still not worth it to me. But I spent 16€ (IIRC there was a 10% discount at release) in ES2 Iberian DLC.

2 months ago
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considering this is a 6 year old game

I think you need to differentiate, and there's a big difference, between a game that released 6 years ago, got a few patches for 3 months and that's all, and a game that gets constant updates and content addition during all those 6 years.

Even fateofone underneath said it was kind sketchy that he'd have to pay $40 for the same tables from fx2 to fx3 with the legacy discount.

I guess you mean fx3 to the new FX, as fx2 to fx3 is free. I personally dislike that, too, and won't buy any of those upgrades.

A package would've made more sense, and if they add new things, add them to the package, but keep it's price the same or adjust it for how many years the game has been out.

You want them to work for free? What's the incentive to create new tables if everyone that bought the package gets them for free, and the price stays constant? That model is completely unsustainable. If you want them to keep upgrading the game and having new content, they need some money influx. So you'll have to explain how they'll get the money. And don't answer "so stop making pinball tables".

and its hard for me to assume that as much work as goes into 12 fx tables could ever go into making something like cyberpunks phantom liberty dlc for instance.

That's not how pricing works. It's not based on "how much work it's required" alone. The other big variable is what's the target market size. CP (and any other AAA game) manages to work with 60€ game + 30€ DLC because it sells a ton of copies (have a very big market size). A pinball game won't ever come close to a fraction of the units sold of an AAA game (very small market size), so each unit needs to be priced taking that into account. All indie games are relatively very expensive if you only look at the "how much work did it take to make" variable. Niche games are expensive due to this, it's the only way to make a niche game profitable.

To reinforce that these are part of the same package even to the developers and they don't look at them as individual titles, the achievements they have on steam (although I am no achievement collector) are regarding the different dlc's. Therefore, without what they themselves, the game makers and releasers of dlc tables, consider the full package themselves, you couldn't complete all achievements in this game. So you would have to buy them all to complete this game

It's the same with the Sega MegaDrive games. Each game is a DLC, and has its own achievements. The achievement description doesn't tell you the game, which is very annoying, though. I guess you consider MD games... games, or they stopped being games when they got packaged as DLC's?

3 months ago*
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"I think you need to differentiate, and there's a big difference, between a game that released 6 years ago, got a few patches for 3 months and that's all, and a game that gets constant updates and content addition during all those 6 years."

Doesn't matter how many updates it's getting at some point the engine version becomes outdated, 6 year old unreal/unity versions are still outdated, so still a 6 year old game, some people claim they still got performance issues in the current version, and after 6 years they could've added some more free tables to the ftp base game if they so wanted, some from their own inspiration, but they had none.

"You want them to work for free? What's the incentive to create new tables if everyone that bought the package gets them for free, and the price stays constant? That model is completely unsustainable. If you want them to keep upgrading the game and having new content, they need some money influx. So you'll have to explain how they'll get the money. And don't answer "so stop making pinball tables"."

Not not really, but I'm explaining if they really want to stick to a 6 year old product so much, maybe they should add them to the base game, and instead entice users by the sheer amount of content for a price. Rather than push out prefabbed tables like it's new content just because it has some logos on it. I would prefer they instead released a new, more stable engine that's with the times instead and that offers backwards compatibility across their fx versions for owners of previous tables, as that seems fair, and then work on some of their own ideas, if they can come up with a single one rather than spend all their money on a brand deal, and make that the reason why they have to sell individual dlc's and can't afford to keep their total price under a AAA title.

"That's not how pricing works. It's not based on "how much work it's required" alone. The other big variable is what's the target market size. CP (and any other AAA game) manages to work with 60€ game + 30€ DLC because it sells a ton of copies (have a very big market size). A pinball game won't ever come close to a fraction of the units sold of an AAA game (very small market size), so each unit needs to be priced taking that into account. All indie games are relatively very expensive if you only look at the "how much work did it take to make" variable. Niche games are expensive due to this, it's the only way to make a niche game profitable."

Of course that's not how pricing works, in fact, if you look it up, you'll learn that more and more devs want to make f2p games, because then they can just sell you mtx as absurd prices. I've been there. Ever heard of path of exile? Why pay $60 for grim dawn for instance, when you can get path of exile for free, and pay $80 for a pair of wings and $300 to expand your inventory? Of course they're not stupid, and yes I still think this makes them greedy. Pricing should be based on how much work goes into a project. Sure it's not that way, but you make it seem as if it's wrong to call it out. Like how dare anyone tell them they're way overpricing their game?

Pricing wise, also consider you could get Cyberpunk for $30 on sale and it's dlc which hasn't gotten a sale for another $30, and that's still like 35% less than the price of the fx3 content at 70% off including a "free to play" base game, which totaled up to $101 at 70% off.

As for fx3 not having as much market share as CDPR, of course, as I already mentioned, it's not a AAA title, so it doesn't deserve that much market share, it's a pinball game, the tables are done from a prefab, and the functionality that goes into this vs a full fledged AAA title is miles apart. So yes, they will never compare in terms of work, I agree, hence why it makes no sense, why it would be more expensive. I'm not gonna stand here and say buy pinball at $101 because it doesn't have as much market share as CDPR and it's not an AAA but they deserve the same equal amount of money for exponentially much less work. Come on you can't be serious here.

"It's the same with the Sega MegaDrive games. Each game is a DLC, and has its own achievements. The achievement description doesn't tell you the game, which is very annoying, though. I guess you consider MD games... games, or they stopped being games when they got packaged as DLC's?"

I mean, and? I have the same opinion about the sega megadrive games then. Separately list them with their own achievements, otherwise you bait achievement hunters into having to buy the whole package if they want to 100%. It's a scummy tactic. I'd say it to sega too. I don't want you to think I'm picking on fx3 alone. Anyone that does that bs knows fully well what they're doing and it's a shitty tactic. Once again I'm not even an achievement collector, but I feel for those that are.

"Delisting the Sonic games of this collection to force people who have yet to buy these superior original versions (over Origins) is anti consumerist and an abysmal business practise. Furthermore, adding further insult to potential buyers, if you are to buy this game and all available content for it ... the Sonic achievements are still there, thus, you will NEVER be able to 100% the game. Never." 

~ https://steamcommunity.com/id/pastillum_botello_fartum/recommended/34270/ Top review on steam for the sega megadrive collection. So I don't think I'm wrong about this, it is a shitty tactic, if the publisher/dev sees this. Change the way you're doing things. Both for sega and fx3. Just because it's how they do it, doesn't make it the right way to do it, so I'll call it out. I ain't gonna be on their side when they're doing the wrong thing for their pockets to be even fuller which would've been more than fine the proper way.

3 months ago*
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Not not really, but I'm explaining if they really want to stick to a 6 year old product so much, maybe they should add them to the base game

They could have added some old tables for free in fx3, yeah.

Rather than push out prefabbed tables like it's new content just because it has some logos on i

Mam, stop with that BS.

Of course that's not how pricing works, in fact, if you look it up, you'll learn that more and more devs want to make f2p games, because then they can just sell you mtx as absurd prices. I've been there. Ever heard of path of exile? Why pay $60 for grim dawn for instance, when you can get path of exile for free, and pay $80 for a pair of wings and $300 to expand your inventory? Of course they're not stupid, and yes I still think this makes them greedy. Pricing should be based on how much work goes into a project. Sure it's not that way, but you make it seem as if it's wrong to call it out. Like how dare anyone tell them they're way overpricing their game?

What I'm saying doesn't have anything to do with the f2p model. Reread what I said.

Pricing should be based on how much work goes into a project

This is stupid and doesn't work. We wouldn't have indie games if they were priced according to that metric, because they wouldn't be profitable. If you price an indie game proportionally to the work it took to make relative to an AAA game, indie games should be a lot cheaper than they're now. That would make them unprofitable as they don't have the market share needed to sustain such low prices. Each copy of an indie game earns a lot more money "per work" than an AAA game, but they sell a lot less so it balances out. A game can be cheaper is the market gets bigger. If you want to contract a developer to make a game for you and only you, he won't charge you 60€, he'll charge you thousands of €, because the market size here is a single person. You really need to learn some very basic economics if you want to discuss about this.

I mean, and? I have the same opinion about the sega megadrive games then. Separately list them with their own achievements,

What a horrible idea. First, because they have a cool looking "launcher" (a 3D modelled virtual room) and there's where you pick the game you want to play. And the most important, it will clutter the Steam library with all those MD games. I already hate that the Megaman games are separated in a few collections instead of being a single one...

~ https://steamcommunity.com/id/pastillum_botello_fartum/recommended/34270/ Top review on steam for the sega megadrive collection. So I don't think I'm wrong about this, it is a shitty tactic, if the publisher/dev sees this. Change the way you're doing things. Both for sega and fx3. Just because it's how they do it, doesn't make it the right way to do it, so I'll call it out. I ain't gonna be on their side when they're doing the wrong thing for their pockets to be even fuller which would've been more than fine the proper way.

The negative review comes from delisting the Sonic games, not with the model.

IMHO the problem with DLC achievements resides in Steam itself. I like DLCs to have achievements, but Steam should separate them from base game achievements. That would solve all these issues.

3 months ago
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Mam, stop with that BS.

Tried it out last night, and this was basically my experience https://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/Qo6U9/steam-pinball-fx3-bethesda-pinball-70-off-329#pjC77gg

What I'm saying doesn't have anything to do with the f2p model. Reread what I said.

I read what you said, I just said from my pov I don't like the model they engage in because I find it predatory, and to me it's almost as bad as asset flipping.

This is stupid and doesn't work. We wouldn't have indie games if they were priced according to that metric, because they wouldn't be profitable. If you price an indie game proportionally to the work it took to make relative to an AAA game, indie games should be a lot cheaper than they're now. That would make them unprofitable as they don't have the market share needed to sustain such low prices. Each copy of an indie game earns a lot more money "per work" than an AAA game, but they sell a lot less so it balances out. A game can be cheaper is the market gets bigger. If you want to contract a developer to make a game for you and only you, he won't charge you 60€, he'll charge you thousands of €, because the market size here is a single person. You really need to learn some very basic economics if you want to discuss about this.

I don't think it is at all. I mean when you have a 6 hour indie game release for $30, vs a 40 hour AAA $60 game, yeah sure, the facts will clearly support the AAA. Sure we'll give participation awards because we like seeing projects from everywhere and supporting aspiring artists, but it isn't wrong to call out some of the problems with some of these practices. Like I don't get why people don't expect anyone to call them out for it. Like these devs making only pinball games(with the exception of a few other indie games) and having no innovation for over 6 years in this engine but still pushing out tables like they're a new thing and paying for licenses rather than coming up with new unique ideas. Not only that, zen studios is a 71 employee publisher, so they're good, they're not indie or small dev anymore and haven't been. It isn't wrong to call out that at 70% off this was coming out to be $91 and $101 including the not on sale new dlc despite being released in 2017. It isn't wrong to say that some of these dlc's should have been consolidated and that should've been arranged in their terms many years ago. Like it isn't wrong to call those out as shady and scummy business practices.

Also, an indie game shouldn't price itself somehow to balance itself out to come to the same revenue as a AAA title. That will probably never happen anyways as most people will look at this and say "$91 for the game on sale at 70% off tf? from 6 years ago" and then end up buying the new AAA title that just came out, but this is something I already went over. Also I'm familiar with what it costs to make a game but yes thanks for the information, and my economics are decent too. I understand the idea that if you order a custom t-shirt it will probably run you around $35, but if I take my custom design and once I'm happy with it, I can order 10 000 for $3 each, which then I can turn around and sell for $20 if I can convince everyone it cost me $18 to make them. This differs in certain aspects of life, like you can expect to go to a taco stand and pay $15 for 3 tacos, but then can't go to a 3 star restaurant and pay $15 for tacos, you'll pay 10x more despite them being the AAA in this case because of their experience. So in that sense too, while I support indie game dev, these aren't indie game devs, and their dlc's aren't selling for a reason. Everyone has their value of course, I just pointed out why to me it seemed it was way off mark, and the data seems to point out I'm right as the ftp version has thousands of reviews, but the dlc's barely got any.

"What a horrible idea. First, because they have a cool looking "launcher" (a 3D modelled virtual room) and there's where you pick the game you want to play. And the most important, it will clutter the Steam library with all those MD games. I already hate that the Megaman games are separated in a few collections instead of being a single one..."

Maybe, but I don't think so. This way people can also review the individual games, rather than speak of the whole thing at a time despite maybe heavily disliking some games in the package. This of course also clears up the achievements issue and doesn't blame it on steam, as it really isn't their fault. One game per listing should be the rule, and then bundle them in a package. Then maybe provide the emulator as steam software people can get for free, and those who own the content can launch through the emulator software as long as the game is installed. Seems like a much better way imo. Still gives you the nice looking interface you want, but you only install the games you want at a time, and separates them from being the same product and in case one gets removed doesn't leave your achievements incompletable.

2 months ago
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It's fine if you're not ok with the price, it's more about trying to make you understand that each table is its own game, so if the only reasoning behind the price complain is that you feel the entire package is like a single game, that's just a bad take.

They're not copy&pasted as you say. I haven't seen a single element from one table into another, each table has different mechanics and scoring systems, each table has its own quest/mission system, display animations, music, VO, minigames. All the logic behind a table needs to be programmed, and these tables are quite complex. Different tables have different physics. This is specially noticeable with the Williams tables, which take some time to get used to if you've only played the others, as their physics feel very different.

I said I was if they were that unique using different engines with enough variation

Why a different engine? You don't need to implement a new engine for each table, that's stupid. Not even AAA games do that for their games. You also complain about games using UE4 because they're all using the same engine? The variation doesn't come from the engine used.

and I like my games to not be missing parts, whether others say I need them or not, that should be up to me to decide if they should be missing or not. It's something we disagree on and that's okay.

There's nothing missing. You buy some tables, those tables are completely finished and playable from start to end without any missing content. All tables are completely independent, so you're not missing anything when playing one table because you don't own some other.

fx3 got it's maps ported from fx2 to fx3(so they're not even new)

So now you're complaining that they ported the fx2 tables to fx3?

So I mean even you couldn't have the patience to "finish" a single table or whatever.

I've never said I'm good at it. I only dedicated time to 3 tables, and focused hard on two of them (one of the Star Wars ones, and one of the classic ones, an adventure themed, not licensed, one). Still I wasn't able to get to the end, but it was vey memorable. I still remember some bits. My pinball experience has been in real life pinball more than in videogames. Sadly, there're many games I think are great I haven't had the time to dedicate to them. I have BG3 still there, waiting to be finished. Does that mean BG3 is a bad game? No, I just want to play more games I have time for.

I'm glad you were able to find some $15 pinball single table games, but that's not the only games listed on steam.

Those are the games I actually know about and I'm certain have a level of quality comparable to Pinball FX and are good complex tables (there're a lot of bad ones. Designing a good pinball is actually quite difficult). Of the 3 you mention, only the third one looks at least decent (but reading the reviews, they're simple tables, which is not a bad thing), the other ones are extremely basic and bland. Of course, you can find lower quality or simpler games for cheaper.

Those games also don't use licensed content, so they save a good amount of royalties there, too.

So basically the run is time inflated just to drag on time? Because no one wants to make a playthrough of it on youtube for instance. Like no one found any value in showing others how to do it. You'll basically have to do grindy stuff over and over again, just to reach some bonus ending that the overwhelming majority never will, because lets be honest they just want to play some quick arcade and move on. That probably again includes your plays as well.

If you just want simpler pinball games, then buy those instead? Why being interested in a complex one, with complex mechanics and mission systems that you'll need time to learn, then? Of course, a simple pinball where you just randomly hit the ball and you score points without having to do anything special is going to be cheaper, and better if you just want a quick game. I personally get bored extremely fast of those.

Pinball is in a similar spot as shoot'em-up games. They're both genres totally focused on scoring. Their value comes from the replay value that comes from that (in both genres, a game without a scoring system becomes worthless). No one buys a shoot'em-up to play for an hour (that's the common play time of the genre). People buy a shoot'em-up to learn the scoring system, memorizing enemy patterns, and play tens of hours trying to get better at it (and you'll find Youtube videos only of the really good runs, like in Pinball, people are not interested in watching people's learning process, that's uninteresting, people want to watch the run with the hi-score). It's exactly the same with pinball. If you want to play these genres casually, it's going to be very expensive as you'll need to buy a lot of games since a single playthrough is very short. And that makes both genres very niche.

I literally explained that it's not a story game but rather a score luck goal achievement game. Doesn't mean I don't understand it. I've played pinball games before, but granted not this one. It's an arcade game, not meant to be remembered as well as a story game, so my point stands. Like I'm not going to think, damn I wonder how the 8th multiball is doing, after it fell through the paddles and I wasn't able to catch it cries in 8bit. But you'll probably get some emotion from playing Before your Eyes, spiritfarer, the walking dead, etc. Maybe I don't get it tho, cause you're right, people quit on the walkthroughs after 1 hour in this game.

The stories are not about the balls. You know pinball games have LCD screens, don't you? It's not that they're anything special, they just serve to base the missions on something. For example, in the Star Wars table I played, there's a certain mission about getting attacked and you have to defend, so you have to launch some X-Wings, and to do that you need to launch the ball through certain corridors in a set order in a time limit. Each time you do one, that represents you launch an X-Wing (an animation plays on the LCD). Or you're attacking some float, and you have to hit specific spots with the ball. A good pinball is not about just randomly hitting stuff. A lot of tables even have minigames that are played exclusively on the LCD screen and the flipper buttons are your controller (meanwhile the ball is trapped). The Star Wars table for example has a minigame where you have to go through an asteroid belt.

You also, stopped playing after 32 hours, so it's not like the one map you maybe played was that good to make you get others, even on sale, so maybe I am right and you just wanna disagree.

I've bought several DLCs. Some from old bundles, and 5 I bought on Steam. Now I need to play those.

That's your opinion, I'd like to play them and try out the different tables

And I'd like to try all games on Steam, too.

You can try all the tables for free. The free versions just have a score limit. See, this kind of trial wouldn't be possible if each table was its own game. This way it's easy to try out tables without having to download a demo for each one.

Even more so when you can get the open source version of Visual Pinball for free outside steam and you can play hundreds of tables I think, haven't looked into it too much but seems like there's tons of tables(thousands if I'm not wrong).

And you can download an snes emulator and play thousands of roms for free. Yes, pirating is always a lot cheaper. I have tried it, and the experience was quite bad. The ROMS come from the real pinballs (copyright infringement, though, while Zen has to pay for the rights and implement the logic, so the comparison is very unfair), so that part works properly (LCD screen, scoring, mission system, lights on the table, all the logic basically), but then the physical part of the tables are very hit and miss. It really shows that the tables are done by enthusiasts in their free time (and not paying any royalty for the licensed ones, while Zen has to pay those). There are some very good recreations, but also many bad ones, so the experience is very inconsistent. The engine itself is very good (yes, a single engine to recreate all the tables in the world, no need for a new engine for each table...).

3 months ago
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Comment #1

"It's fine if you're not ok with the price, it's more about trying to make you understand that each table is its own game, so if the only reasoning behind the price complain is that you feel the entire package is like a single game, that's just a bad take.

They're not copy&pasted as you say. I haven't seen a single element from one table into another, each table has different mechanics and scoring systems, each table has its own quest/mission system, display animations, music, VO, minigames. All the logic behind a table needs to be programmed, and these tables are quite complex. Different tables have different physics. This is specially noticeable with the Williams tables, which take some time to get used to if you've only played the others, as their physics feel very different."

Interesting, but I don't know how much of this holds true. These are elements they are unlikely writing code from scratch again. I'm sure they are introducing a whole graphical element for the table that matched the license they bought, still just moving some holes around and the points they give isn't mindblowing. Put a hole down, assign it a point value next, how much time can this take? I would give them the credit they spend most of their time on the visual animations they have to play out, and copy pasting the quest data from chatgpt(this is a joke they probably have an intern write it for free). You also say each table has it's own quest/missions system, but I think what you mean is that all tables have the same one, but the tasks are made for the table at hand. All the logic behind every single table having to be done from scratch every time also makes no sense, as then what's the point of the fx engine? All these tables use the fx engine, they just use different settings for their tables in the engine, not a big deal to change once you have the core done. That's why I questioned their uniqueness because I don't see that much variety in them tbh. So sure, since this is their in house engine, I wouldn't be surprised if every once in a while they add a feature or two that allows functionality for a table, but it's probably going to be used again for another in the future. In general it seems to be if ball hits certain trigger/play animation/trigger event/score increase/roll minigame/continue or whatever. Looking at the table, it's always the same shape. This is all digital, how comes there's no weird shaped pinball tables, I don't really want to give them any ideas, but they're all the exact same shape. So I'm pretty confident when I say they start from a prefab, basically a starting table that has minimally everything needed to just get everything going, and then their engine allows them to easily place elements where they need to. Then they assign textures to said elements, making it looks so different that people think they're all that different, they add a minigame or model or something, and bam new table. How long can this take. Maybe they should put the engine up on the workshop so we can test it out. I mean if it's that hard and that much work, no one will do it.

 "There's nothing missing. You buy some tables, those tables are completely finished and playable from start to end without any missing content. All tables are completely independent, so you're not missing anything when playing one table because you don't own some other."

Yeah but a table is not a game, it's a dlc. So I'd be missing the other tables to complete my game, which is fx3. Otherwise if this was just the engine, it would be in the software section on steam, but it's in the games section. Also, I can't use it to make my own table and sell it on steam, so technically what they're giving as the base is just a launcher with no game, although they were forced to add a table to it for free, or steam would've probably deleted them for playing extra dirty.

"So now you're complaining that they ported the fx2 tables to fx3?" 

I'm just saying they could've added them to the base game, there was no need to release them as new dlc, since they weren't new content.

"I've never said I'm good at it. I only dedicated time to 3 tables, and focused hard on two of them (one of the Star Wars ones, and one of the classic ones, an adventure themed, not licensed, one). Still I wasn't able to get to the end, but it was vey memorable. I still remember some bits. My pinball experience has been in real life pinball more than in videogames. Sadly, there're many games I think are great I haven't had the time to dedicate to them. I have BG3 still there, waiting to be finished. Does that mean BG3 is a bad game? No, I just want to play more games I have time for."

I mean ok, but then this only reinforces my theory that people really play this for some quick fun, which is exactly what I'd do, rather than as hardcore pinball table solvers. So maybe there's an issue with the genre. Once again, looking at youtube playthrough/walkthrough results, no one played a single table for that many hours, or no one found any value in doing so. Like no one wants for showing/teaching/entertainment purposes to finish a table from 0 to 100%. I also don't know what the quests exactly are so I wouldn't know how to look up pinball fx3 star wars table quest defeat lord vader, if that's even a thing. So in the end, like I said, these aren't really 30 hours pinball tables, they just have inflated times for the purpose of dragging the time by, kinda like clicker games, but probably the same reason no one wants to record/watch a clicker game walkthrough for 50 hours.

"If you just want simpler pinball games, then buy those instead? Why being interested in a complex one, with complex mechanics and mission systems that you'll need time to learn, then? Of course, a simple pinball where you just randomly hit the ball and you score points without having to do anything special is going to be cheaper, and better if you just want a quick game. I personally get bored extremely fast of those."

This is not a bad argument, I still don't understand the complexity of it, I mean you can see most people would agree with me. 4600 reviews on steam the base free game with the free table, but way less than 100 reviews average per dlc. So people aren't actually playing the individual tables, but they are playing the f2p game or maybe just sitting in the menu and that's fun enough for some? I'll continue in the comment #2.

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"And I'd like to try all games on Steam, too.

You can try all the tables for free. The free versions just have a score limit. See, this kind of trial wouldn't be possible if each table was its own game. This way it's easy to try out tables without having to download a demo for each one."

You can, 2 hour refund steam policy although that's not my style. Also it doesn't apply to dlc's so I guess it wont work for these "unique whole table standalone games"(I gotta poke fun at this whenever I can) anyways that are dlcs and not listed separately because most people would be done with them in less than 2 hours. xD

"And you can download an snes emulator and play thousands of roms for free. Yes, pirating is always a lot cheaper. I have tried it, and the experience was quite bad. The ROMS come from the real pinballs (copyright infringement, though, while Zen has to pay for the rights and implement the logic, so the comparison is very unfair), so that part works properly (LCD screen, scoring, mission system, lights on the table, all the logic basically), but then the physical part of the tables are very hit and miss. It really shows that the tables are done by enthusiasts in their free time (and not paying any royalty for the licensed ones, while Zen has to pay those). There are some very good recreations, but also many bad ones, so the experience is very inconsistent. The engine itself is very good (yes, a single engine to recreate all the tables in the world, no need for a new engine for each table...)."

I can't exactly say where they get their tables(granted I haven't done my research), but they were getting deals with the chicago town and multiple gambling associations so my guess is if no one else called them for doing something wrong, either they're abandonware, or they're public domain, open source, etc. but you probably aren't wrong when you say it could be user content, however some of the best mods come from user content. Counter Strike was user content for half life, and it became the #1 fps in the world after valve bought it, so in a sense, maybe those laws need some refining as it's hard to say nowadays if any of us have any original thoughts/ideas anymore. Even disney can't come up with new ideas and they're remaking their old movies with different race actors. Marvel has run dry every single one of their movies. Netflix series have gotten repetitive and kinda cringe. If someone can create something so amazing with an idea, maybe they're it's a good thing they were able to use it, regardless who thought of it first.

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These are elements they are unlikely writing code from scratch again. I'm sure they are introducing a whole graphical element for the table that matched the license they bought, still just moving some holes around and the points they give isn't mindblowing. Put a hole down, assign it a point value next, how much time can this take?

The scoring system is much more complex than that. Hiting something doesn't have a flat score, it depends on what mission you're currently on, and sometimes the order you hit stuff also makes a difference. If you even get something, as many components are enabled or disabled based on many different factors.

ou also say each table has it's own quest/missions system, but I think what you mean is that all tables have the same one, but the tasks are made for the table at hand.

The mission structure is very different from table to table. To what order you can do things, what triggers starting a certain mission, some missions may be sequential, the player can of course fail missions, for different stuff: some missions are timed, others fail when you hit the wrong thing...

All the logic behind every single table having to be done from scratch every time also makes no sense, as then what's the point of the fx engine?

The engine makes things simpler to do. An engine is not a game. It's just a tool. What exactly does this engine implement? Probably a physics engine that's fine tuned to work properly in a pinball game, the graphics engine, a sound engine, and some scripting engine to write all the logic for each table.

This is all digital, how comes there's no weird shaped pinball tables, I don't really want to give them any ideas, but they're all the exact same shape

But they don't have the same shape? Other than being rectangular because it's a pinball game. But everything inside is different in each table. Many people don't like crazy stuff, they want tables to be somewhat realistic.

and then their engine allows them to easily place elements where they need to.

This is hard to know. I doubt that's done in the engine, though. They most probably do all the modelling in some 3rd party software like Blender or Maya. Implementing your own modelling tool... it's really not worth the effort, especially in an in-house engine.

Maybe they should put the engine up on the workshop so we can test it out. I mean if it's that hard and that much work, no one will do it.

In house engines are generally very user unfriendly and have a lot of weirdness, and it probably lacks documentation. In order to make it public it they'd first need to clean it a lot.

This is not a bad argument, I still don't understand the complexity of it, I mean you can see most people would agree with me. 4600 reviews on steam the base free game with the free table, but way less than 100 reviews average per dlc. So people aren't actually playing the individual tables, but they are playing the f2p game or maybe just sitting in the menu and that's fun enough for some? I'll continue in the comment #2.

Isn't that normal? Everyone owns the base game, so they rate that. Different people buy different dlc's, so dlc reviews are spread out. Also, most people don't review DLCs. Let's take Witcher 3 (I pick an old game as by now anyone minimally interested in the game owns the expansions, if I pick a newer game DLC reviews will be even lower): base game has close to 700k reviews. Expansion Pass has the whooping amount of 4k reviews, HoS has less than 6k and B&W has 8k That means only 1% of people that review the base game also review DLCs. Looking at that, Pinball FX DLC's review count seems pretty good (1% of 4600 is 46, but the % of people that own a DLC is lower than in a game like Witcher, so the expected number of reviews per DLC would be even lower than 46).

3 months ago
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hmm, everything at -70% while usually they don't go lower than -50% on their most recent releases?
what is it, is FX5 release around the corner... even after 4 (actually "just FX") was just released 2023?

well even for FX(4) pretty much everything is -66% as well

3 months ago*
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3 months ago
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Pinball FX is what came after FX3. It was an Epic Games limited time exclusive before it came to Steam in April. The sales for the DLC packs for awhile would be 60% to 66% off, 70% is an historical low for FX3 DLC if I'm not mistaken. With their new client Pinball FX it's not like it was with FX2 where you would get all the DLC you already own put into FX3. You have to buy all of the tables again if you want them on Pinball FX, this didn't sit well with a lot of people in the community. This is one of the reasons for the mixed reviews.

There's a new client coming in a few days and it's called Pinball M which will focus on "more mature" Pinball tables. Like FX3, and Pinball FX this will also feature a free table, "Wrath of the Elder Gods: Director’s Cut". The other DLC packs that were announced are for Child's Play, Dead By Daylight, Duke Nuke Em, and John Carpenter's The Thing which each will be separate DLC purchases. The prices haven't been officially announced yet, but I'm guessing they will be about $5.50 each like the other non Zen single table DLC on Pinball FX.

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Pinball M seems unnecessary. Why not have all next generation tables under one platform?

3 months ago
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It seems like it has to do with a "Mature" rating on tables compared to the tables on the other clients.

"This Game may contain content not appropriate for all ages, or may not be appropriate for viewing at work: Frequent Violence or Gore, General Mature Content"

3 months ago
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Exactly. They want to do games that would fall outside an "E" ESRB rating. Considering as how they already have to "adjust" the cabinet art on Fish Tales to stay within the guidelines, it makes more sense to have a separate launcher for grown-up tables.

3 months ago
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Who else besides me prefers pinball fx3 to the new pinball fx?

3 months ago
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I preferred FX2 to FX3 :) and I prefer Zaccaria Pinball to the whole Pinball FX series

3 months ago
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What makes you prefer it over the new client?

3 months ago
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There is now lag with the flippers with an xbox one controller which wasn't present in fx3 and I really don't see a visual or performance difference. Also having to re-buy the tables sucks, even at a discount, I see no benefit changing to this version. I kind of regret purchasing the new version.

3 months ago
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What CPU and GPU do you have?

3 months ago
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I7 10700k and RTX 2070 super

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I have a i7-12700K and a 4070 and running it on max settings in real 4K (4096 x 2304) and I just tested it out and I'm getting zero flipper lag with the controller.

Is it happening on certain tables or all of them?

3 months ago*
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I definitely understand about it sucking to have to buy the tables again. I have all the tables on FX3, but the Williams tables and the new Indiana Jones table. Even with the "Legacy discount" and the current sale it would still be like $40 for me to get everything I own already on the new client. There's also an issue with 2 Marvel DLC I own that aren't showing, so there's not a Legacy price for these for me. For me the new client feels really good and I think the newer features are also really good, but having to repurchase things doesn't feel good.

Once Zen got the Williams license things changed and they started to use "real physics". What I liked about FX3(before Williams) and FX2 was that they weren't like real tables. I used to run an exclusive SG FX3 group and when I saw the direction Zen was going it sort of killed things for me and I eventually put the group on hiatus.

3 months ago*
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I bought some FX tables instead. Feels more future proof.

3 months ago
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Seeing people argue about a pinball game on steam gifts wasn't on my bingo card for this year.
Anyway, bought some tables for FX, add me if you wanna have someone in your friend list to challenge some highscore with. I'm just a casual player so don't expect super sweaty world records from me.

3 months ago
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I've just completed my collection in this sale, and were also looking for friends to "compete" against. Casual here too, added You on Steam!

2 months ago
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