Do you want to keep, change, remove, or replace the Contribution system?
Shmadow:
3K23Yᕦ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)ᕤEGP0R(ง ͠° ͟ل͜ ͡°)งGVTVM
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To be honest I think one of the issues is that right now if someone gives away Fallout 4 their 60 points of CV will drop to 20 within a year.
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Only if the rate of sales drop. And considering the last three games made by Bethesda GS all had an all-hype start with quickly stopping after people realised it's the same sandbox again with a different texture, it may happen. Although so far FO4's launch seems different. More buyers but less enthusiasm.
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Wow, this is a featured poll now? I don't think I ever saw anything like this before.
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Ah, thanks for the heads up! Still curious if the outcome of this poll will have any impact on the website's future. :O
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Removal is unlikely, support for that is even lower than 2,5 years ago. But it also cannot be left as it is, with problems it makes now and new ones coming soon (ie bundling of everything with 75%+ discount on steam due to regional prices). It would be interesting to see how it would be handled: in private small comitee or with community participation and feedback.
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I think one vital piece remains unknown and propably only cg can answer this and that's how many SG users out of the total SG users are active on the SG forums to really know the value of this poll.
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49% for keeping the system exactly as it is, 34% for altering the current system, and only 13% for removing it completely.
Last time there were only two options, keep it or remove it. So, considering 83% still definitely want some sort of system in place (and a majority of that group supporting the status quo), there actually isn't much of a difference at all.
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Your phrasing makes it appear as though you were comparing "keeping" and "not keeping," rather than "keeping" and "changing."
Also, it is important to note that there were voters last time who chose "keep" but would have chosen "change" if it was a choice (again, there was only keep and not keep). I would not be surprised if the differing percentage was similar to what we are seeing represented now.
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Yeah, sorry about that. I'm not very good with words usually as English is not my native language. I do understand your point, and I agree that change isn't likely either. I can see how people then just chose the better poison to keep than to remove it completely for lack of poll options. But now at least people can see that at least 1 in 2 people isn't happy about the current system.
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I don't really comment to much anymore in the forums but when some things catch my eye I may respond. This is one. I read through a lot of this thread and now I'm burnt out. lol
I really don't care what you do with the CV system anymore. It is cool to see for myself how much I've gave away but overall I'm just here to give away games to people and try to win some too. People will whine and cry about stuff no matter how it is so why even bother sometimes.
You know what I wouldn't mind having is an option to make multiple whitelists. Label them differently with different guidlines of who is on what one. For example I could have one for random people, great acts of kindness, friends, enemies, etc. Ya some may say just create new groups but I don't want to have to manage all that. A plain old whitelist would be easier to handle.
I have my own standards on who I want to allow to enter some of my giveaways and that works for my CV requirements. DO whatever you want just as long as I can still have fun giving away games to happy and excited winners.
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Did you not read I don't want to make a bunch of groups. I'd rather be able to add an remove all with ease on SG. I don't want to send invites to people to add them to a certain group.
Like a random whitelist I could just go through the forums and pick people without them knowing and then a giveaway would show up that only they can see.
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I don't have a problem with groups as I am in some. I just think it would be cool to have a choice of multiple whitelists instead of me having to create a bunch of groups and then have to invite people to those groups. It's to much work.
It's a lot easier adding and removing people to a whitelist than a group.
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I was looking for a "Revert" option. I suppose "Fix / Change" will have to do. :P
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You have a way of describing things that makes me feel like I'm right there with you, holding you by your hand.
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That is a lucid, intelligent, well-thought out objection...
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My .02c
Any potential system that would replace CV will also have inherent flaws and loopholes for abuse and complaints. Where there's a will, there's a way, and there's always a will. The cost of completely revamping or removing the current system will probably outweigh any potential benefits with the way SG is operating currently.
That said, I do think the current system could be tweaked and modified a bit. Particularly with some rules for the bundled games list with respect to regional differences and ways in which games that have been "free" at some point are handled. No need to go full restructure, just adjust a few knobs to find the right balance between holding system abuse at bay and generating incentive to give.
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Rep system = Oh goody, people who want to (re)gain CV level all spamming hordes of 3 week long giveaways of every bundle game in existence while spamming the forums with discussion topics for every single one in order to convince everyone on earth to rep them.
Sound fun?
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Much wall of comments...
I think not all ppl can buy bundle for example me so better leave like this. Sometime I also want something inside bundle.
I try to make GA with more ppl joining..but I can't, Because steam give region lock to the game and I don't have credit card to buy bundle or whatever it is
And I will never get any whitelist with the requirement to make ROW GA(I don't really mind either)
Oh well I just a stranger passing by... (* - -)
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Same as every thread like this.
3rd worlders exploiting CV with deep discount regiong pricing, 1000+ (currently) vote "KEEP"!
People in ROW/Full price countries who are far outnumbered in threads like this: "Change"!
Yes, I did inspect 4 pages worth of user profiles (for regions) from the comments, same as I have in other threads like this previously.
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I have read through a lot of comments since you opened this discussion and I don't know where to reply anymore. The bigger issue seems to be with the regional pricing. I would suggest giving full CV for discounted games that were not featured in bundles, such as the recently added Talos Principle, as long as the giveaways are public. This way they cannot be exploited in groups by marking the gift as ROW.
And perhaps introduce a new type of invite only giveaway only for the forum. These could be treated as public giveaways. No more 99% private giveaways ¯_(ツ)_/¯ complaints.
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i wrote this as a reply (http://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/qFyORQn), but there is so much of my opinion on this topic in this, so i decided to just post it again for everyone here.
TL;DR: of course we should not get rid of the CV system. it is a major motivation, especially (but not only) for newcomers. there are ways to improve on what we have right now. i will mention one or two ideas here. and i read others in this thread. but the core idea of the system we have is good, and it should stay that way.
the comparison is not really fair. bring hundreds or thousands of people to rep you is not the same outcome as creating a few bundle games. you will need to give away a crap ton of bundle games in order to get an equivalent to thousands +rep. i mean, what would be the equivalent of level 10? if we calculate with 10$ per bundle game (which i am sure is above average bundle game value), that's 1.5$ CV per giveaway. that makes 3333.33 bundle giveaways to reach level 10. since so many bundle games are below 10$, it's probably even more like 4000. this is just so much work. and it's even slower due to the GA slot system. this is a task that can easily take years to accomplish. ^^
also, giving away bundle games is not really an exploit, is it? we gain something from that. people always complain about members who give away only to gain CV. but the site benefits from that. and if a real exploit happened - GA created between friends and no game delivered - we have means to act against that. we can spot those with easy-to-use tools (sgtools) and they can get suspended or even perma-banned, if necessary. how would you try to prevent abuse of the rep system? i agree it might be hard to get thousands of people to cheat the system. but it might be easier than you think to get a few dozen to do it. and i see no possibility to do anything against that. not unless we find the group where they gather and explicitly state what they are doing. and that is so much harder to do than checking non-activated games.
i would even argue CV is a major motivation, especially for new members. i was like that, 3 years ago. CV gives this feeling of achievement. i will gladly admit that quite a lot of my giveaways happened only because i wanted to gain CV. and even now that i am way beyond the need for CV, i still like seeing that number increase. it's not the reason to do giveaways anymore. but i like it anyway. and i think what happened to me happens to a lot of members. they start maybe with one little bundle game. just to get to level 1. and then an addiction develops. and they give more and more, just to see that little number increase. i think it would be a dangerous step to take away that motivation. i just don't see the same kind of motivation in the rep system.
i think it works pretty well as it is. exploitation is certainly possible, but only to a certain degree. regional restricted giveaways might be a problem (are they?). i am sure we could find solutions for that. maybe only russians should be allowed to give away RU/CIS games. i was once against that idea, but i like it more and more. of course then nationality has to come from the steam profile. i am no steam API expert, but i assume that's no big problem. the other form of exploitation would be very cheap games. the typical -98% game on steam. well, we can either live with the fact, that some people gain a little CV with those games - and i really don't think it's a big problem because of the reduced CV for 5+ games - or we could think about measures. like a second type of bundle category that grants only 10% CV value. it's just an idea, and it would result in extra work for you guys. and i think the 5+ reduction rule is enough already. so, what other kinds of exploitation are even happening right now? is there something i didn't think of?
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Yes, the idea to reward contributors and this way creating incentive to continue gifting is good. But does current system achieve that? Imo, it doesn't. From my observations level barrier is used as filter cutting off 'problematic' users. The rewarding part is done through whiltelisiting. Why it is so? Part of the answer is it doesn't measure contribution but size of games budget. Let's face it, gifting in small closed group contributes very little to the wellbeing of the site as a whole, yet is rewarded the same as public/forum gifting. Afair there was quite a backlash when new CV system was rolled out and as an effect minimum entry count for CV was lowered to 5. Personally I wouldn't mind at all if it was upped to 100 or 200, and below that threshold gave 10% value, or no value, even if that means i drop to L3 or something like that.
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Yes, the idea to reward contributors and this way creating incentive to continue gifting is good. But does current system achieve that? Imo, it doesn't. From my observations level barrier is used as filter cutting off 'problematic' users. The rewarding part is done through whiltelisiting.
i have to say, i disagree. of course the reward is that shiny number (level/CV), and the access to more public giveaways and better odds. also, the possibility to get invited to groups rises with the CV. whitelists are just an additional layer of rewards, if you want to say it like that. but even whitelists are often based no only on forum activity, but also on CV. i mean, try to get on any whitelist with level 0. i can image that being difficult. ;)
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Access to more public GAs with better odds would happen no matter what leveling system would be in use, even that rep proposed by wbarton. To what extent, it's hard to say. As for group entry requrements it's usually assesing ability to fulfill obligations that usually come with group membership. With different CV system it would be just formulated differently as $ value.
I know of one L0 user, but he doesn't enter anything. But I have on my WL levels as low as 2 and some with 'takers' ratios. The numbers on the profile were never an important factor, they shown other qualities more important than that.
I will stand by my opinion that current leveling system should be replaced. Not only it fails at measuring generosity. I'd even go further and say it incentivizes leaving public space in favour of closed groups. In exteme it leads to something I called black hole, because literally nothing comes out of it. Yes, such things exist. What is more 'funny' inside one of them exist another, informal black hole. Most users >= L5
Now, so that I'm not misunderstood. I've nothing against groups - I'm member of couple of them, like it and will keep giving to them. I just don't see why I should be credited the same for 'friends-only' GA as someone making public/forum one.
As a side note: I've stumbled only on couple groups that have GA activity and no ratio/mandatory monthly contribs. Would love to hear how many are there, if you are willing to share )
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You can set any nationality in Steam profile. As for IP, currently I'm Swedish if you ask this site, but I can also be Japanese and American (and sometimes British, although not for some time) on top of my real nationality, and I'm not even using some VPNs to mask my location nor moved even a kilometer away from my city. :)
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didn't they change that recently? i might be wrong, but i remember it like this: you can only change your country in steam, if you provide a payment method for the new country.
EDIT: yep, that's what i meant:
I have moved, how do I change my store country?
If you have permanently changed your country of residence, you can set your store country to reflect that. Go to your Account Details page and you'll find Store Country in the right column under Your Steam Account. Once you've selected your new country of residence, you'll need to verify it by using a local payment method tied to a local address for your next purchase.
For example:
Say you've recently moved to the United States. You'll now see United States as an option in the Store Country drop down. Selecting it will change your store to display products and pricing available in the United States. To verify your new country of residence, your next purchase will require a payment method tied to an address within the United States.
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That's store region, and I can change mine as freely as I want too, but that's not really relevant now.
As for the country flag, you can set your current location to anything. You just go to Profile, Edit, country, and you can set any country, any city, freely, any time. And that is your displayed country.
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but you can change your region on SG every year or so, right? my idea was to tie this to the steam profile. i was under the assumption changing region in steam is not that easy anymore. i didn't realize the region on your profile is different from your store region. ^^
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You can change your username once per year, but not region.
To do that -> "The above country should be the primary region used by your Steam account. It allows you to enter giveaways for that region, and determines pricing and sale information displayed to you. If it needs to be changed, please contact support."
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ok, i guess i was wrong about basically everything then. xD
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I find it really stupid that after 2 years they still didn't care to change the fact, that if a listed game price lowers AFTER the giveaway has already ended, your CV dives as well. I was about to start progressing towards level 3 and suddenly found myself back on level one. This change should be a no-brainer
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It is a feature. Inflation does good for the gifting economy even if hurts individual user's contribution value.
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It's been over two years since cg made this poll thread, and I feel like it's time to re-examine the topic now that we've had ample time to experience the system. Keep in mind a few changes have occurred since this post, as they relate to CV, these are:
-Contribution levels
-Region locked giveaways
-Blacklist & whitelist
Some background
Firstly, I would like to state that I am a longtime member here on SteamGifts. I first started using the site in December 2011, and for context the Humble Indie Bundle 4 had just released and Skyrim was still a new game. At the time there were only a few mods active on Steamgifts: Raiden, Cult, and the heavy lifter Lokonopa. There was no contributor value system, however there was the "Contribution" stat on everyone's profile which was simply the dollar amount of all the games you had given away based on their current price. Some groups did use this for their own systems as well as some rules on giveaways (before such things were no longer allowed), but otherwise there was no contributor system as we know it today and certainly no contributor giveaways.
One of the other big differences on the site at the time was that bundle games couldn't be given away on the site. That was strictly a no-no, and closely tied to the contribution stat. Even then with just the contribution stat, people would still make bundle game giveaways, going against the rules, and they would still "boost" contribution with fake feedback. So the problem has always been there, even before the now implemented contribution system went into place.
So onward to the new contribution system. Initially it seemed like a pretty good idea, rather than contribution being something that was rewarded for in private (via groups) it was now publicized meaning anyone who had spent some money out of their own pocket could be rewarded with more exclusive giveaways. It's a great incentivization tactic and is one of the driving forces behind at least one other giveaway site out on the web that I'm aware of.
Yet here I am, making this thread. So what gives? What's wrong with the system?
The issues
By and large, my biggest issue with the system is the misuse. It doesn't sound like much but it introduces a headache of concerns. As of now the system does a mostly good job at what it's supposed to. It values items that have been bundled or deeply discounted less than those that haven't to try and get a good approximation of each users contribution level. Those users are in turn rewarded with more exclusive giveaways. I've already explained it. For the most part it works okay, however it's not perfect.
Fortunately boosting via feedback fraud has become more difficult (but hardly impossible) and seems to be less of an issue. However newer issues have emerged or at least have become more prevalent. Regifting is a good example, prior to CV regifting was rare, it happened but not at the rate that I see it happen today. I've seen a group of users banned for splitting four packs and then getting CV by making "giveaways" for those games. There are the more difficult to prove forms of misuse as well. For example there is nothing stopping users from begging developers for keys to giveaway (and in return give the developers promotion). Nothing technically against the rules perse (begging is not allowed but it could be argued that they didn't beg for the keys on SteamGifts itself) but it's definitely not in the spirit of the system and whether or not it break rules, I'd still label it as misuse. The newest concern seems to stem from region locked giveaways, again nothing against the rules, but a user from say the U.K. could "farm" CV by getting RU copies to giveaway via the new region lock giveaways.
Drama of course has been another issue since the introduction of this system. I myself have willingly got myself suspended (sorry mods for the extra work ;-;) for standing up against some users I feel are gaming the system, and I've seen plenty of other drama related threads based around the similar circumstances. I've seen arguments about so many types of CV related topics as well as plenty of criticism for poor Shobo who is doing one hell of a job working that bundle list (<3). The aforementioned region locked giveaways and how they relate to CV seems to be a more current hot topic on the subject.
I'll conclude by saying that I generally don't appeal to the good 'ole days, mostly because I'm not a very nostalgic person, yet in this instance I must. For the first year or two on this site the feel of the site and its community was much more positive and encouraging. When I first found the site I was amazed it was a real site, that people could be this generous, that something like this could actually exist. For the longest time it felt like people made giveaways to actually be generous and be a part of the excitement of giving. Some still do for sure, <3 to the forums and steam chats that keep this place great. Yet since the introduction of the CV system it has really taken a dive from my perspective. So many users treat this site like a job, evaluating the cost/benefit of price glitches, deep discounts, bundles, etc. You don't have to look far to see someone upset about why they have 39.99 CV or why game x has been put on the bundle list but game y hasn't. It sometimes seems like SteamGifts is just an extension of SteamTrades with a random component thrown in.
The fix?
I'll keep it simple. Replace it, remove it, or fix it. I for one would prefer to see it removed entirely, have the contribution stat on user profiles or don't, I don't care too much about that. Nix the bundle list and let groups and individuals judge a users giveaways and contribution themselves. This would also mean the full removal of contributor giveaways, something I would be all too glad to see. I personally don't see much incentive in fixing the system, one of the inherent problems is that it publicizes (for lack of a better word) the incentivization aspect of the site which may mean more giveaways but also means more of a headache dealing with all the extra baggage it comes with.
tl;dr
The contribution system has its flaws, letting some selfish and greedy users win giveaways intended for the most generous of users, it requires additional work by the support team to maintain, and has led to more than its fair share of drama since its introduction. Replace it, fix it, or remove it. Please.
P.S. I hate to be instigating all of this, but I really do feel like this site could be better with changes to the system (or more helpfully its removal or replacement). I wouldn't be making this thread if I didn't feel strongly for what I've posted. I like this site but my activity has dropped off drastically since the changes and I'm constantly jaded by users gaming the system and getting rewarded for it. So I'm sorry, but at the same time I'm not sorry.
Edit:
I went through and found a few choice posts by support members (whom I single out for their inside knowledge of some of the issues)
rep based system by wbarton
short post by cg
post by Khalaq
current state of affairs with the bundle list by SleepyCat
Some suggestions for alternatives by members
some different approaches by tubberware
entry based system approached by Ricki w/ response by cg
similar entry absed system suggsted by GauRocks
an older alternative provided by TheDopefish
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