2 minutes waste of time...
your point of view is just
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Get back to work, underling! Don't you have some private emails to read? Those citize-, er, terrorists, won't spy on themselves!
Signed, Your Boss.
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I'm not sure exactly what you're trying to say, but there was only a single thread made about Snowden 8 months ago and the majority of people were neutral towards his actions. Not sure where you are getting this "patriot" and "martyr" thing from, but it's certainly not from this site.
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Actually, I seem to recall a lot of people expressing vocal support for his actions. (Haven't re-read that thread.) At the end of the day, I'm just saying that you can't make these broad judgments in a vacuum. Yeah, the US is a shitty, shitty government ... no argument here. But the world isn't black and white, and there's a lot of gray that needs to be navigated. If a country like Russia is arbitrarily deciding to invade Ukraine, and there are terrorists who would love to bomb the crap out innocent people around then, then maybe there's a reason why the US pulls a lot of the shit it does.
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because they here it so often, so they think it must be true
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It was pretty much split evenly in the number of people who support and the number who looked down upon his actions. You can do a ctrl-f on the page and you'll see that not one person called him a patriot or martyr.
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I can see the sarcasm, but this whole post is just ... I'd rather not say it. He fled to russia because it's one of the few countries that wouldn't sell him out to america instantly. That's the only reason. If he could get asylum in some country in europe (france, germany) he would have done that, but since we are allied with the US, it was rather obvious that we would have sold him out before he could have leaked all the stuff he leaked as of today. Going to Russia was the right decision.
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This. He didn't go to Russia because he thought Russian government officials are all saints. He went to them because they wouldn't give him up to the US since he had valuable insider information about US. Also, he did it before this Ukraine thing, so I find this thread pointless. Not sure what you are trying to get at here.
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Indeed. Such a weak argumentation to say that he's being protected by a non ethical country, so all he did in the past was unethical and wrong. You should be ashamed to create this ridiculous topic, and ashamed of what your country did to the rest of the world (and their own people) in the last 100 years.
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So.. what you got from the whole Snowden-Story is that he wanted to show people that russia is better than USA? xD
With this kind of analytic thinking you can probaply get a job at Fox News! ^^
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Yes : Russia Today.
I highly recommend to have a look from time among a bunch of other sites such as al jazeera etc, for whoever lives somewhere else its simply different news. +reuters, "alternative news", a handful of serious pro blogs and of course The Onion.
Bonus points for rss because not gonna spend 5 hours a day checking and researching news.
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He never took side with Russia. He never publicly expressed any affinity with Russia as a state. He never praised anything about Russia. He just escaped there to avoid US prosecution and life in prison. Also at first he wanted to gain asylum in Venezuela. Russia was actually his second or third option he chose.
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I get that. Obviously this thing isn't entirely serious. But doesn't it effectively make Snowden a hypocrite to bash the US and then seek asylum with countries that are even more corrupt and exhibit even less respect for the rights of their citizens?
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Not really. If he had made a rant like yours condemning seeking asylum in a "worse" country prior to his current situation, then he'd be a hypocrite.
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See, I'm actually shocked that anyone was surprised that the US spies like crazy on everyone.
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Well, most people these days don't care about politics and naively trust everything the politicians feed them. And ofc, the glorious USA, the loving father of freedom and democracy, white knight to all the opressed oil reserves, ahem, I mean opressed people of the world, would NEVER do anything undemocratic like spying on people, nooooo.
btw, I'm sorry for my earlier post, I thought you were serious^^
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Suspect somehing is one thing, proove it is another, especially when the NSA lies to the congress and to the people, and you prove that it is a lie as well. Before there was a lot of conspiracy theories, and the documents if you read them are even better than any theory existing before the leak.
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C'mon, anyone with an ounce of good sense KNOWS that the NSA and CIA spy. It's what they do. And with domestic terrorism and separatist movements, of course they're going to spy on their own citizens. As far as lying to Congress ... I wouldn't trust those TV-mugging jackasses with sensitive information either.
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The difference between knowing and knowing without proof is a huge leap. People used to "know" that the Sun revolved around the Earth too.
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You obviously don't. It does not make him a hypocrite because Snowden haven't escaped for Russia to seek happiness. He is in Russia NOT because he thinks it's better place than US. He is there because Russia is one of those states who aren't directly allied to US and therefore they are willing to give him asylum. If he could he would propably choose other European state or maybe Canada. But these countries are allied with US and they would handed him over. So his fleeing to Russia doesn't mean he has any affinity with the country - he is there solely because it's safest place for him to live in order to avoid US jurisdiction.
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Not really, no. His decision to seek asylum in Russia didn't sit well with me, but his personal choices (if he ever really had a choice on that matter) don't invalidate his criticisms of the USA.
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Well put. They don't invalidate his criticisms. But I think that judging the actions of the US government with idealistic glasses isn't really the right approach either. Lots of gray in the world.
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I like a bit of idealism: pure realpolitik, though often necessary, too often ends up being a crutch to justify inhuman-but-easy decisions.
But yes, it's obviously not black and white, and the people who treat Snowden as a saint are pretty much as wrong as those who claim his head on a platter for "betraying" the USA. I'd just like that situations like this could make americans think a bit beyond their own propaganda: they really can't shout "Freedom!" from the rooftops and be okay with proto-Big Brother: the two things simply can't coexist.
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Doesn't this fall under no politics?
I don't get what your point is. It is more or less considered a fact that a lot of sensitive information was collected about citizens without any reasonable cause in the US,which contradicts the Fourth Amendment. No matter what were his true reasons,he exposed this to the public and we now see a fight over privacy rights,something that probably wouldn't have happened if snowden didn't show up.
Why did he flee to Russia and not to any other country? Probably because it was the first country that accepted him. It doesn't mean that he supports Russia or what russians do. The ukraine situation has nothing to do with this.
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2/10, mildly hilarious for all of the wrong reasons.
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It gets even more hilarious. Don't know about other countries, but in Germany the politicians were like: "Oh, the US spies on our citizens? Yeah, whatever, who gives a shit... Wait, what? They spy on Merkel? HOW DARE YOU SPY ON OUR PEOPLE? BURN THEM WITH FIRE!"
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https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/composition-division
https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/the-texas-sharpshooter
Just because a guy that worked for a secret agency gets sick of this way of doing things and decides to speak the truth about certain anti-human rights behaviours which has been committed against the rest of the world (with proofs) finds shelter in Russia (who else would have had the balls to keep him??) doesn't mean that all the atrocities of your country are all of a sudden legitimate. You sir, are an hypocrite of the worst kind and I'm glad to see that most people can see through it. From your perspective, back in 2003 we should have forgiven China or Russia for spying or whatever because you invaded Irak. You are not a patriot, you are an hypocrite and you apply your little logic only where you see an advantage to your country which you blindly defend. Don't judge a whole country to their leader, especially to legitimize the mistakes of your own land.
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uhhh ok. Snowden is fine, but he is no way related and should be compared with the russian decision to invade ukraine. Russia is basically china's mentor, they are taking notes on how to invade a country without getting into a full blown war. Look right now, crimea is successfully invaded and there's no real pledge from the int. community for Ukrainians to fight with them. Russia even tried so hard to force ukraine to take the first shot(propaganda, false news, going into the west border) but luckily they didn't.
China will then do these to taiwan, and there's nothing they can do about it.
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Sad but true, most countries have enough with their own problems to start a new conflict, even if would be legitimate to reprimand. But how could the US reprimand the Russian invasion after invading Irak and killing more than 100.000 civilians? There is some sort of spiral of tolerance and the Occident is in no position to critic nowdays. That been said, I'll never understand how can a country invest 50 billions to organize the Olympics and a few days after the party ends, starts to invade his neighbour and destroying in the process the lovely image it has just given to the world. They could have simply offer shelter to those who wish if they'd want to help.
Why can't they just play Arma!
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I don't think China needs a mentor. They have a much better image than Russia has, though, so they won't try and invade Taiwan just for the fun of it. And even if, Taiwan has the problem of not being recognized as a sovereign state by pretty much the whole world (unrightfully, IMHO), so the UN can't really tell a country to stop an aggression against a state they don't even recognize. Here's hoping Russia won't be a rule model for other authoritarian states.
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I want 2 minutes of my life back you comunist scum.
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That's just greedy. You can't possibly have spent more than 30 seconds reading what I wrote!
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lolwat. This is really reaching, even for a "joke."
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I hope the OP gets violated by an eagle wielding a sickle.
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Mindless would be the people who were parroting the guy as a champion of freedom. Of course a lot of those people are suspiciously silent now.
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I'm not going to weigh on whether what he did was right or wrong, but I will say that fugitives of the United States don't have many good options when it comes to fugitating :hee:
And I agree with TheMightyCreep, this post is pretty much against site rules (political discussions, that is) and it's only purpose seems to provoke people with a "haha, I told you so" mantra
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Holy shit chair, do you realize you're presenting an equally biased and obtuse view as those you are attempting to marginalize? I'm extremely surprised at your attitude, it is a total fallacy to believe such things exist purely in manner of black and white. Your insistence evident in your replies only strengthens the evidence that you're simply rabble-rousing (something you are demonizing your "opponents" of doing).
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Actually, it's because things don't exist in black and white that I fail to see Snowden as a hero. He decried the US government's actions as wrong without considering the extenuating circumstances.
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I'm not debating his status as a supposed "hero." I only stand by the facts: he blew the whistle on some things he felt to be shady, and they did turn out to be shady. If a governmental system does not allow its participants to question the system as it stands, especially a democracy, it is denying the very right to participation itself. If you villainize the act of participation because it might be harmful not only discourages further whistleblowing, but actively discourages the idea of examining the system itself altogether. It is exactly this kind of thinking our founding fathers warned us to avoid; the very mindset they sought to escape persecution from.
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You make a compelling argument. Part of me sees the value of what you say and wishes it could be. However, I also think that the potential repercussions of those actions need to be weighed. Doing otherwise is irresponsible.
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Wtf chair?
Between this, and you wanting to stop cross region gifting, I do believe you may be clinically insane.
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This was the most retarded thing I have read in a long time. Congratulations, I crown you now the moron of SG. You may now take your seat on the shame chair facing the wall.
Oh yeah, go America, land of the freedom, go and free all those countries! I mean, it's not like your economical system is pretty much non existent, except for all the shit you produce to go into the war for freedom yay. It's not like you guys need war to stay afloat. It's not like your goverment was outright lying to invade countries. It's not like the US spent like 5 billion dollars on the "russian critical activists" in the Ukraine. It's not like those guys are the same ones, who one year back were screaming for a russian extermination. I don't know, but the last time one group was calling for the extermination of another group they were called fascists and nazis.
So please, don't ever try to be sarcastic ever again, you fail.
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You can't live in a box AND have internet. It just doesn't make sense.
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In all honestly he had no other choice. Russia is one of the only countries that wouldn't send him back to the states. You think he wants to go to Russia? He'd rather stay in the states, but if he does that he'd be in prison with buba.
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I get that. But given he was all about principle when he was leaking information, turning around and doing the smart thing and accepting asylum in Russia proved to be hypocritical. It cuts both ways, don't you think?
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Defend his actions in a court of law? Realistically, I get why he didn't choose that option. All I'm saying is that you can't position yourself as the prophet of freedom and righteousness, denounce the US, but then hide behind a Russian government that's a thousand times worse. It just does not compute.
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Lol he was branded a traitor. It's listed as the only crime in the US constitution and is punishable by death here. He doesn't support Russia, but sometimes you have to do something you don't like to survive. He wouldn't have just gotten a simple jail sentence we all know he'd magically commit suicide in prison or someone shoots him or what ever. If he stayed in the states he would have been dead. Russia is pretty much the only country that wouldn't send him back so he decided to go there and it was the smart move. Haven't you had to work with someone that you don't like before? You don't want to, but sometimes you have to if it's for the better and no doubt he's keeping his mouth shut and not saying anything to the Russians. This guy isn't out to take down America he's just wanting the people of the USA to know what the government is doing.
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Or jail with solitary confinment and all the crazy abuse, like chelsea manning ( didn't end up being classified as suicide risk for no reason )
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You seem to think that a government and a private citizen are perfectly comparable entities. They are not. Governments are always held to higher standards since their actions have huge impacts on those they serve (or those who they are meant to server), private citizens on the other hand aren't held to such standards, in fact they are held to quite the opposite standards (don't do things deemed illegal).
That being said, the way you put forth your arguments you strip away a lot of the details and generalize everything "he was all about principle" but what principle? I'd argue based on what I know, that it's the principle of serving his countrymen in the face of what he sees as a corrupt government. Thus his principle is to help his fellow citizens, now that he has leaked his information, going to jail is surely not going to help anyone, and in fact if anything it'll just scare away future potential whistleblowers (not that becoming a fugitive is that much less scary).
Personally speaking, I feel that whistle blowers in general still have roles to play after they have already leaked whatever it is they had to leak. Sitting in a jail cell however doesn't serve any useful purpose.
tl;dr Socrates was a fool only once, and it cost him his life
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I don't totally agree, but you pose some good points worth considering. Especially about whistleblowers -- I'm on the fence. I think some of what Snowden shared was valuable. But he also would have done better to be more discriminating about what information he revealed.
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What exactly would have prefered him no to reveal ?
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Agreed. If everyone who leaked information was sent to jail then no one would do it. He can do a lot more good from Russia than in a jail cell/dead.
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Nice sarcasm there, if only it would at least make sense in a way. I agree the whole thing about praising Snowden like a hero was completely idiotic, but going to Russia was a smart move. The enemy of my enemy is my friend, hence Russia will do their best to keep Snowden protected as long as he is useful. He didn't choose Russia for the sake of Russia being Russia, but because they are the last people on earth who would want to help the USA. That Russia is still stuck somewhere between tsardom and the Soviet Union times is a different story and has no significant relation to the Snowden indicident, hence making your try of sarcasm quite pointless.
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Have to say, I really doubted that Edward Snowden guy. Many of you felt he was a patriot, a martyr ... a symbol of self-sacrifice and all that was right with idealistic freedom.
I thought he was a naive moron and that many of you were pretty much the same given your arduous support of him. Now I can see how wrong I was. He's certainly tied himself to the right horse there in Russia. Those guys definitely know how to do freedom and human rights the right way! That Russian government is the pinnacle of consideration, helpfulness and respect, and I for one hope the Ukrainian people appreciate it.
My eyes are open now, Edward Snowden! You really showed that American government how wrong it was and I hope they apologized (through back channels, of course) to you for the atrocious way in which it's been behaving. Really ... why spy on people and other governments, which obviously follow the Golden Rule. Team Putin!
EDIT: Wow, the hate and anger! You guys are reading this too literally. Just highlighting the further hypocrisy of Snowden continuing to accept asylum from Russia given the Crimea occupation. He got on his pedestal and called out the US and then accepted asylum from Russia. Yes, I know it wasn't his first choice. Yes, it was the smart play if he didn't want to see the inside of a jail cell. But you can't stand on principle only when it's convenient for you. Hence, it should be clear by now that he is not a hero.
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