Would you like to have a permadeath game mode in the D. Souls saga?
I'm not an expert with the Souls games but of course. I thought they had one ever since Demon Souls.
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Hum I don't think it fits too well into the DS game design. Weird but although it is supposed to be a challenging game, "death" seems not to be a part of that world - at least for the main character. As achievement - I don't know. Although I like "No death run" achievements, it doesn't fit into the design of the DS achievements, which are more about spending time in the game.
This this achievement would be pretty hardcore and I believe that even the most experienced players would need luck(or better: no mishap) at some points of the game. So in the end I would assume that most players just found a way to exploit some game mechanics or found a way to back up their save files to achieve that achievement "legally".
I think it's sufficient to become the worlds best player of all time and just stream your No Death runs. I guess that would be the most sastisfying thing. I mean you can just delete your character when you died and start from the beginning, if you want that challenge.
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What I like most about Dark Souls is that it doesn't impose a playing style and what is more you can beat the game any way you want (check LobosJr runs).
Thus perma-death is just another way to beat the game. Guess no-shield/no-roll run is a lot harder :)
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Permadeath in DS to start from scratch? Hell no, 1990s are over - wasting your time 10 - 100 times over
a shitty game passage isn't something to be bothered with today ... the system in DS is good as it is.
Achievements belong to Xbobs 360 - personally i don't need any game to lure me into
unlocking stuff just for unlocking stuff, i'll get there if its good enough to be worth the while.
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nobody can argue against an additional, optional mode. so yes, definitely in favor of it.
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You're right in principle, but it seems to me permadeath is strongly against the spirit of the Souls series.
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how is that? one major aspect of the souls games is that death actually matters. a hardcore mode would just push that aspect over the top. instead of souls you lose - well, everything. if you mean something else, please explain.
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i would say that the major aspect of the souls games is the complete opposite, death is not important, hence why it carries almost no consequences and it even sas so in the name of the game, Prepare to Die, dying its an absolutely necessary part of the game, lore and gameplay wise.
At no porint the dev team and game director sat to create a hard game, been playing DK1 for the first time and the biggest misconception i had from this game is that its a artificially unnecessary hard game, it definitely isnt, i would say that its the most challenging and fair game i have played in years.
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oh come on, death carries more consequences than in most games. in your typical singleplayer game, you just do back to the last checkpoint, if you die. that checkpoint is usually way closer than the average bonfire. and you don't lose anything in those games. in DS you keep all your items, but you lose your souls. and once that happens, your focus shifts a little (at least if you have a significant amount of souls). your goal is then to get them back. if you die again before you can achieve that, they're gone. to say death is not important in souls games is just wrong in my opinion.
so would you be against a hardcore mode then? even if nothing changes for you, since it's just an option?
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it just because it sounds like removing a vital part of the game's design, like playing minecraft without building, but offcourse peeps can do whatever they want, i just dont think its a good idea, but im not the boss of anyone :P
also, in others games death is seen as a failure state, the fact that you keep all your inventory while dying on DK removes a lot of weight from it, and even by mid game suicide to get items becomes a very valid strategy.
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Death matters in the Souls games and obviously it also matters in permadeath games, but in a completely different way. The way I see it, death in Souls is an organic part of the progression, exploration and discovery processes. In simple words, it's ok to die (even if it has consequences). In permadeath games, not to die is the first priority. So to make permadeath work in Souls games, either the game or the way it's played should change radically. To make it work, I mean, of course you can still shoehorn the feature in an existing game, but I think it wouldn't be an enjoyable, balanced game.
Not trying to convince you at all costs, just offering my point of view.
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i don't know about you, but i personally find it fantastic whenever i manage to not die for a significant amount of time in DS. you could say i'm in an elevated mood then. and while i personally am not that much of a hardcore souls gamer (i play a souls game once, not 10 times like others) and would not seriously use a hardcore mode (i would try it one of two times, i guess), i can see the appeal of such a mode. i can see how interesting a game mode could potentially be, that extends those portions of the gameplay i experienced (not dying) to full length. in addition to that, i just feel an additional, optional mode would not interfere with anyone's experience. if you don't like the idea of perma-death, then just stick to the standard mode as you did before. nothing changes for you, but there might be some more enjoyment in it for others.
Not trying to convince you at all costs, just offering my point of view.
sure, don't worry. we're just discussion opinions here, and every opinion is valid. :)
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I see your point, and I am also not a hardcore fan of the game. In fact, I try to play it but I am strongly repulsed by anything RPG-ish, so it's a struggle. :)
I am not trying to say there should never be a permadeath mode in Souls, like you said it would be an optional mode or a NG+ of sorts and the standard experience wouldn't be affected. I just don't think it's a good idea - unless they redesigned substantial portions of the game, in which case it would indeed affect the standard experience. Again, just an opinion. :)
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but you have the same exact normal game that you have right now. This optional mode is only "a plus" for hardcore players, it doesn't steal anything of the spirit of the souls series, the normal game is untouched.
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But this mode could just be modded into the game. I would actually assume that there is already some sort of mod that just removes all savefiles and throws you into the main menu, when you die.
I don't think that in DS death actually matters - playing good matters. For example in CoD death matters - you are dead when you lose your health. You have failed and though you can play on, you have to restart from the last checkpoint. Removing these checkpoints would make a no-death run important and more satisfying.*
But in DS dying and then "reviving" from the last bonfire is not the same. The design of the world is, that your struggle will go on forever, you can't flee through death out of it; you are trapped in this world and your only way out of it is to move on - beat the game.
I'm not against this feature, but I think it is completely sufficient, when you just use some sort of mod for that.
Developers have to decide what they put into the game, so I'm sure they thought of that feature, too as it seems to be easy enough to be implemented. But I do think that there are points that speak against such features, be it from a designing point of view(seems not to fit into the lore) and also from a challenge pov, because I really think this achievement would be more annoying than fun. Especially on Steam, where skill*-achievements are already super pointless due to SAM.
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True, that's why I wrote that he's right in principle.
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Isn't this the game where you can die a million times? Who would like a permadeath mode in a game like this? xD
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While I still think that an achievement like this would not fit into this game. The best thing I could think of would be an achievement that you unlock when you "never lost your souls", that could be achieved in the normal game and you would be - ofc - permanently locked out of achieving it when you died.
(Oh I remember there are items that prevent you from losing your souls, right? Well tehre are certainly other ways to express this.) I hope you get the idea of what I mean, but a reward "for never having died" could be given to player in other forms, than just beating the game in such an "expert-mode", like you proposed.
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I couldn't find the source of the BL so.... free now.
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I don't mind additional modes with related achievements, though giving the player the option to keep the character upon dieing might be a good idea.
Basically you can play this mode once with a character, if it dies, you either make a new one or play the default mode with it. But knowing people online, they would find someway to exploit the gamemode and knowing FromSoftware, they would take their sweet time fixing things or even ignore it unless it was game breaking.
What i would like to see is a hardcore mode, something similiar to what darksouls 2 newgame+ was but with more things. Additional enemy spawns, instead of 1 boss its 2 sometimes, or boss and minions. Fog walls are no longer a thing in this mode, so npcs can roam freely into boss arenas if you attempt to rush in to kill it. Summons are no longer a thing but you can still get invaded or invade others. Souls are permanently lost upon death. If a npc kills you, it gets stronger an additional 5% in terms of damage and hp (it would be capped obviously, something like 20%), killing said npc would reset its value. Things like this... is what i would enjoy to see, the permadeath mode isn't bad, it just sounds extra punishing if the character gets locked out from any game mode upon death, if you take too long exploring in this mode, you will most certainly die, so people would have to focus in rushing the mode and would most certainly find a safe spot to farm souls to level up and eventually beat bosses easier. If you would get invaded and not manage to reach the boss safely, you might be screwed there. PVP can be a pain in the ass, specially when some laggy bastard joins you and can easily pull backstabs when your back isn't even facing them, or when some guy with a short sword swings at you and deals damage even though you are out of reach in your screen.
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No, definitely not. You don't get to escape by dying permanently; that would be far, far too merciful.
(But seriously, the combination of immortality plus death being painful is a major part of the game's design and themes. Obviously I wouldn't really have a problem with a checkbox for permadeath, but I can't see it being fun and I don't think it'd be worth putting development time into if it was something that turned out to take any significant time to add... the series simply is not designed or balanced with it in mind. Keep in mind that all else aside, most games with permadeath have extremely heavy procedural generation, since constantly playing the exact same levels over and over again from the start gets old fast.)
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I think this idea comes from the misconception of the spirit of the souls series, they are not meant to be hard for hard sakes, thats Namco Bandai marketing blunder, but From and specially miyazaki never intended for their game series to be know as a player hating game, it is just a properly balanced challenging game, i been playing trough DK1 and at no point i found myself an "unfair" challenge, every tool you need to go trough the game is there.
I dont think its a good idea, as it goes against firstly lore wise and mechanics wise, putting so much wight on death, would just slow down players and even stop them from doing or trying certain things, to not fear death its very important part of the game.
That said if some masochistic people want to play it like that i have no power to tell not to :P, i think the best way to do this is to just put an achievement, if you manage to not die one in a play trough you get it. All tough i bee seeing a couple of playtroughs and even very experienced people with all the tip and tricks of the game are still dying now and then.
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What do you think? would you like that the dark souls games include a game mode with permadeath and with their own achievements for that game mode?
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