Do you think e-sports are really sports?
Changing your name doesnt change the fact that you make thread ever few hours. Most of them about nothing.
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ah thanks for that - I was just seeing more of this type of post and thought we had more - but now I know it is the same person I can move on :) - appreciate the heads-up
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frankly, I would rather see this type of thread than a bunch of blacklist butthurt or blacklist "ohh.. i don't care, but secretly, i do" thread.
even "im not winning anything" thread is worst than this.
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Weird how you said "please say why" and you didn't state a reason yourself :P
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my reason is in the poll, lol
you can't practice sports only with your thumbs
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I believe this would serve as a much more accurate definition:
a skill-based activity in which players or teams compete against each other; usually an activity which involves the testing of physical capabilities
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sports
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Fighter_kite
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sports#Remote_control
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sports#Stacking
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sports#Mind_sports
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chess#Competitive_play
http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=sport
That doesn't mean that some people and organizations don't exclude sports with the same purist mentality that your definition indicates is suitable (ex. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/ESports#Classification_as_a_sport ), just that such sentiments have never been universal [and several lingering history-derived phrases still adhere to more open interpretations of the phrase].
That said, within the context of the more active video games which generally compose ESports, it's pretty safe to say they can fit in as sports- Darts, for example, is a sport, and it's really not more involving than rapidly slamming away at a controller for a much more endurance-taxing span of time (and both rely primarily on coordination, perception, and dexterity).
Finally, ESports meets the criteria that SportAccord (the most recognized international standard) details for defining what composes a sport (though admittedly, it's a pretty lax set of guidelines): https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SportAccord#Definition_of_sport
[I'm not actually sure it meets the 'The sport should not rely on equipment that is provided by a single supplier' rule- that's a bit of a weird one to figure out for digitally based products. However, some proprietary sports already exist which have broken that rule, so I think we can consider that rule to not be of concern.]
The fact is, Sports is like Orgy- most people will understand it applies to physical sports the same way orgy applies to sexual activities, even though [orgy can apply to anything indulged in with copious amounts, and sports can apply to activities which aren't physically-dominant]. But there's really no reason to deny sports to less physical [there really are no 'non' physical activities of note to consider, after all, which really brings things to a question of degrees, to begin with] activities, given that they have their own subcategory labels already. Rather, the point of language is clarity, and 'sports' with subgenres is quite clear. If we start separating out which competitive activities are sports and which aren't, we'll need a new overall label to encompass all the current genres.
In other words, yes, they're sports [general category], no they're not sports [common label]- as that specifically refers to physical sports, by its subgenre definition. So, either we're comparing one subgenre to another, which is silly, or we're needlessly removing a general genre which clearly defines all the subgenres within it, just to favor one specific subgenre, which is already quite easy to directly reference, as is.
Basically, in theory, the only competitive, skill-based activities which shouldn't be considered sports are those which also have strong elements of chance within them- as any emphasis on luck undermines the foundation of what composes a sport. For everything else, perception, balance, coordination, dexterity, strategy, etc- they're all foundations, of varying degrees, to any sport. Whether a sport favors more physical, more mental, or more sensory elements over another is just a matter of the two sports approaching the same concept (of skill-based competition) with a different emphasis- so, in essence, it's equatable to the question of "Is this truly a video game?"- and that's a debate SG has already had some familiarity with, given the instances of users expressing disdain toward 'casual games' and 'walking simulators' as not being 'game-like' enough.
tl;dr: Physical Sports are not Esports, Esports are not Physical Sports; Esports are general sports (and thus have the 'right' to label themselves as Esports).
P.S. Besides, competitive eating is already considered a standard sport (despite not meeting any of the skill-testing qualities related to sports that I mentioned above). In light of that, I don't think we can nitpick about any other contenders to the label. :X
..Though if you want to argue against that inclusion, I'll be first on board behind you.
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Actually that's a yep. You must move your fingers fast and precisely = physical exertion, also there must be skill, and also they compete against others.
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So where do you draw the line? What level of energy exerted by a person is required for their activity to be suddenly accepted as a sport?
And out of curiosity, would you consider golf to be a sport? I'm guessing no.
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If you long for purities in a language, what would you say if I asked you: What are the Olympic Games? They are clearly "games", not "sports", right? Or would you, as a purist call them from now on the Olympic Sports? Another example: the average human pictures the word "house" as a square, concrete or wooden object with a door and windows and a roof on top, right? But how does an eskimo picture it?
Semantics is a beautiful thing, really.
If you want scientific backing of what Sooth said (and he explained it nicely), you can check de Saussure's dichotomies in languages. There are plenty of articles on the web available. Or check any articles regarding linguistics, specifically semantics.
Cheers!
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Both yes and no for me, but mostly yes.
Yes because it requires skill, a lot of practice, knowing the rules of the game, teamwork, planning, fast thinking and a whole lot of people watch the players on a big TV as with any other sport.
No because it's video games and a part of me finds it odd to call video games a sport.
Video games are art. ;)
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Everything can be art
There's even an art called "inventing a fake sport"
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If racing is considered a sport I don't see why videogames can't be one.
That said, I think that most of the current games we have nowadays clash pretty hard with how an organized sport tournament is supposed to be. Imagine if a single company had the ability to change the rules of a sport without needing anybody else's aproval.
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Nope. An exam normally has one (or more) right way of solving it that will give you a perfect score, after that there's literally no point in competing. An exam is more of a puzzle.
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What if it is an exam application for a job? It is a competition
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Why would you think that the purpose of the exam would change anything about what Axelflox wrote? An exam in it self is, usually, not a competition.
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Have you never heard about university application exams? Or government job application exams? There are people in some countries that apply every exam to have a public job, though vacancies are limited, so are vacancies at university, so it's hard to get the job or a vacancy in an university. It's a fierce competition. In the case of government jobs, it's even harder, so people who take exams constantly even call themselves "applicants" and travel through the country trying every exam while studying, as if it was a profession.
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No, an exam is not a sport.
There is no governing body laying down the "sports" rules. Whilst there is a governing body, there are no laws to abide by(eg, every person has to use a pencil). There is no competition to enter, there is no "world exam championship".
You're arguing semantics rather than a cohesive point.
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Of course there are laws. Public notices about the exams for jobs/universities have force of law
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There are laws about crossing the road at a signal but they don't incorporate those into every sport.
I'm talking laws of the "sport", rules and regulations of the sport of "exam". Tell me how you score points, whats the time limit, who are the judges, what are the questions? There's no answer because there isn't any.
No laws of the "sport" defined by a governing body, its not a sport. Now apply that same logic to any other ridiculous suggestion you want to make and Bobs your Uncle, there's your answer.
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You can say the same thing about the so-called "e-sports". There are no definitive laws, since there are so different games. You can't apply League of Legends "laws" for a racing game competition.
That's pretty much the same as competitive exams for public jobs. Each one has its own rules. They tell how you score points, what the criteria are, what the time limit is, what the questions will be about. After application, there will be a ranking. The top applicants are the winners.
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I agree, which is why I said I'm not sure that e-sports is a sport as I'm not sure it has a governing body.
"Exams" for jobs do not have a governing body setting out some kind of rules for a sporting event. You pretty much repeated your original point without answering my question.
Self-governance by common knowledge is not an approved registered governing body. Your argument can be stretched to literally anything but they'd all be wrong. I can not go and find the sporting book of exam rules, there's no scoring system for competitive "examing". If you really want to, at best it'd be defined as a game.
No matter how hard you argue or how many examples you make, the answer is no unless it meets the criteria laid out by the IOC and other sporting bodies.
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Well, it's not a real point. I'm just showing that the logic of the above users had a lot of flaws. Even if I agreed e-sports are real sports, I would be pointing that those are not valid arguments.
For example, some users are saying "oh, it's a sport, since it involves a lot of money and sponsorship". So I could say publicity is a sport. Politics is a sport. Podcast is a sport. Making YouTube videos is a sport. Flawed logic.
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But I've given you the actual definition. I've pointed you to the world governing bodies who make the decisions on what sports are, why are you making these points still towards me?
You asked if exams could be classed as a sport, the answer is currently no. Making youtube videos, currently can not be classed as a sport.
Your sporting definition needs rules & regs set out by a governing body amongst other things, most things will fall down at the rules and regs part though hence why thats the best initial yardstick.
To answer all future "is it a sport?" queries, ask yourself, does it have a governing body? Yes > are there rules and regulations to the game? Yes > it is a sport. No > it is not a sport.
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Ok, but it still opens a huge flaw where anything with those requirements could fit and be called a sport. I don't really care if it's considered a sport, but I just don't agree.
Poker, chess and video game competitions are not activities "involving physical exertion and skill in which an individual or team competes against another or others for entertainment".
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Mental ability encompasses skill as well as physical exertion, however, to be as pedantic as you are being...
Poker involves movement of your arm.
Chess involves movement of your arm.
Videogames involve hand movements.
All those are physical exertion.
You can disagree all you want, but you are literally wrong.
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You are right. You do move something. We do move something all the time. It's not possible to move cards, pawns and controllers with your mind. It doesn't mean you are doing enough exertion to be considered an athlete, lol.
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Where in your comment above did you say "enough physical exertion to be called an athelete".
As I stated below, you are tying yourself in knots, changing your point to God knows what and making disconnected points.
Question: Is e-Sports a sport?
Answer: Not currently as the governing body has not yet been put in place, is not recognised yet and no standardised rules and regulations are in place.
Last comment from me on the matter, you don't want an answer, you want an argument.
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Yes, I do want it! I'm trying to be convinced. Sorry if I couldn't.
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It's not. If there is a maximum achievable score then it's not a competition per se, it's a challenge towards yourself to get the most you can and hope that others score lower. From the top of my head I couldn't name a sport that has a physical limitation to it, that couldn't be passed.
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You still miss the point, + the comment above has nothing to do with what I wrote.
By your logic it's a competition and sport if I try to get the last bread in the bakery before closing time :) Just because you have a shared goal with others that has limited "slots" and try to achiveve that, it won't make it into a sport. What you described above is more of a profession (and whoever travels "through the country trying every exam while studying" has set field of work. Like you would say someone trying tabble tennis, then after failing travels to the next tennis competition while training, then moving on to football) , and otherwise a massive slippery slope fallacy when you always change a little and at the end the whole topic is changed.
Sports doesn't have a magical "you passed!" level as exams and applications are. Football players in lower leagues still can make a living, not as fancy as the top players, but still can. Others play in their freetime and it's still a sport, while failing at exams or not getting into a job is a straight out failure:
Exams and applications are entry to "a thing". Playing sports, even by competitive levels ARE "the thing", the players are already in the system - that's why it's a very unfit example.
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No, it's not my logic, it's your logic (and the logic of other people I was answering to). I was just trying to show it's not a valid argument. Now you showed a valid and complete argument.
Even so, it doesn't change the fact about the dictionary definition for a sport doesn't fit e-sports and some other so-called sports.
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Exactly what's my, what's out logic? You again wrote nothing set, just "omg I proved you wrong with your logic"
Esports doesn't have a maximum score. It's a reactive situation. Just like real sports. Your exams are a set thing where you can achieve 100% and still not be enough (as others can get 100% as well), or you can be the best with 50% as well. How is that relevant to any competitions and sports?
Learn to support your claims because so far you just spew random nonsense as replies.
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You have to be in top shape for racing or you won't be able to deal with the g-forces. And i also doubt you lose 2-3 liters of water while playing video games like formula 1 drivers do in a race.
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Depends on how long you're playing :P
Edit: I guess what you meant to say is that you doubt playing games is as physically straining
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You also need to be in top notch condition to be an astronaut (plus big g-force and space radiation exposure), and they suffer from muscle atrophy. Does it make space travel kind of sport? :D
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Space travel obviously misses the competitive aspect of sport which racing has.
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So competition if USA or CCCP will be first on the Moon, or who will firstly land on Mars is not competition? Just like in traditional sport it's fight between whole nations.
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Still lacks a governing body that puts in a clear set of rules for that competition. Also astronauts are more like passengers as they don't even launch the rockets or control the space craft. Mission control does that. That would be like racing where the driver is in the car to do other stuff while the car is controlled remotely.
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AND THE SPACE RACE? EXPLAIN THAT TO ME WILSON, EXPLAIN!
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Idk
Sure some game need skill and reaction speed to win, but i dont think its a real sport (since sport usually associated with "make yourself healty")
Im more to 'no'
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Absolutely not. Maybe as games of skill like chess.
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I don't think it's a sport. I do think it's an e-sport.
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What if the game is not about sports? Is it still an e-sport?
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It's not a sport.
And "Youtuber" is not a real job either.
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For me, it's a sport (I hope someday officially its a sport in my country) sport and esport always representing their country and not just for he money
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They are not sports.
Also I think the main difference between e-sports and games like chess or GO is, e-sports are completely tied to the developer company. The company has absolute control over their rules, mechanics, tournaments, prizes, players etc.. E-sports are usually used as means of marketing. Also they usually change the rules and mechanics and those games most likely don't survive over 10 years.
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What about motorsports, just think how much influence some parties have in them...
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The amount of influence coming from the developer is about 100% for e-sports. Just look at league of legends, all pro players are contracted employers of Riot, they can't say anything negative about the company. They can't join any other league except the one allowed by Riot, no other pro leagues can be created, game rules and mechanics are always changing, the game itself including the map can completely evolve to something else in a patch and everyone is forced to accept those changes.
Even if you are fine with all those things, when the game is not marketable anymore, it will die out and players will need to switch a completely different game.
Can you really compare that to motorsports? Are these sports also completely owned and controlled by a single company without any other options?
Do they make minor changes every month and major changes every year to the races, vehicles, mechanics and rules? Will formula one completely die out when it is "dated" and not selling anymore in 5 to 10 years and all its player base (racers and the audience) will need to switch Indy car racing till the same thing happens to it as well ?
PS: Sorry I might be wrong at some points, I don't really follow motorsports. But I guess they are also questioned the same way, if they are real sports or not.
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Real difference is that the teams participating have some say. But the leading organisation of FIA makes changes yearly in F1 and then essentially teams have contracts which disallow forming new competitions. And actually Formula One is nearly controlled by single company...
It's a mess really.
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Oh well, I was thinking about this thread. I noticed it mostly depends on the definition of the term "sport" and most dictionaries don't have a very detailed one.
Looking at wikipedia, SportAccord (Global Association of International Sports Federations) seem to have a pretty good description.
According to SportAccord's definition:
- The sport proposed should include an element of competition.
- The sport should not rely on any element of “luck” specifically integrated into the sport.
- The sport should not be judged to pose an undue risk to the health and safety of its athletes or participants.
- The sport proposed should in no way be harmful to any living creature.
- The sport should not rely on equipment that is provided by a single supplier.
I guess "The sport should not rely on equipment that is provided by a single supplier" totally rules esports out.
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Oh, you have no idea on how wron you are.
Some sports have few major leagues, and you are not allowed to participate in activities of not your league.
Motorsports, formula one, ...
Do they make minor changes every month and major changes every year to the races, vehicles, mechanics and rules?
Hell YES, they do. But ordinary people usually do not know about it. In history of motor races car companies annually made major improvements to their racing cars. F1 reaction to it is allow some changes in rules and ban other changes. There are even youtube videos of how most innovative cars looked that you wont see ever again due to rule changes.
Other sports change their rules too. Just... people are not cars, you can't change them every year. But there are huge examples. Like at some point Olympic swimmers from USSR used underwater dolphin-style swim. Result you can see in every olympic pool: all swillmers use it at start, but there is black line, after which swimmers are not allowed to swim under water.
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Ok, thanks for the pointers. I didn't know about that stuff.
Still my opinion remains unchanged though.
In e-sports, the game (the e-sport) itself is a product of a single company. Just by playing any of those games, even if it is casual, you are forced to use a single company's product and accept their terms. They have absolute control and rights over everything. They can ban/unban players indefinitely, they can completely change everything about the game. They monopolize the pro leagues. They can even remake the matches where they didn't like the result. (that actually happened in league of legends a few times excusing those as "game breaking bugs" and it was pretty questionable but there is no other authority to question those decisions).
Also the lifespan of the cyber games is too short for any of them to be seriously considered as "real sports" in my opinion. Try comparing chess to quake, cs or starcraft (you might even need to ask "which one? I-II-III?" :) )...
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you might even need to ask "which one? I-II-III?" :)
Nope. In Korea SC1 is still №1 with lots of championships. SC2 never been as popular as SC1. Plus, unlike SC1, top pro-teams left SC2, so for StarCraft 2 e-sport is non-existant. First StarCraft is such a big thing as e-sport that Blizzard making remastered 4k version of SC:BW with full compatibility to original. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JRded9XJX-8
Oh, and Quake and Counter-Strike 1.6 are still a thing.
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Well, they are as uninteresting for me as real sports so they might as well be
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Curling is a sport. And I like watching it. Also eSports require huge amount of both mental and physical readiness so it's not just thumbs.
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The word "Sport" comes from the Old French desport meaning "leisure", with the oldest definition in English from around 1300 being "anything humans find amusing or entertaining".
with that definition, yes e-sports is sports
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I wonder, could researching and posting highly controversial topics be considered a sport, and if so how would one decide the winner?
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If darts and curling (I like curling btw) are sports, so are esports. If not, they aren't.
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Esports are lame a bunch of try hards that don't have a life thats what i think about it. But thats pretty much every sports guy so i guess its similair to sport.
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Sooth pretty much stole the thunder, but basically I would have said something along the lines of "Darts, Pool, and even Skeet Shooting are considered 'sports' but are not physically exerting, more relying on precision, endurance and skill. Other sports like Hockey or Soccer (or football for SG's non-us forum goers) require players like the goalie to have quick reaction time to stop the enemy team from scoring a goal. And games like american football have different strategies or 'plays' which involve the team cooprdinating a specific path they want to focus in order to outplay the other team on the field. ESports typically require precision , endurance, teamwork, skill, planning and a high focus on quick reaction time, and strategic planning/communication on on how they could win the round."
tl;dr If you look loigically at the requirements of both currently existing sports and ones in ESports, you'll find there is no real difference, only a false stigma that some people hold onto.
But no, I don't think ESports should be in the Olympics lol
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It is. The only difference with most other sports is that you move other parts of your body (fingers in this case) but the key points are still there.
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