Let me start by apologizing that this post does concern a piece of legislation, so it might be considered political or controversial. If this is against the rules or is frowned upon, please let me know or close the thread, etc.

I won't attempt to summarize the details of the massive 'trade agreement', many of which are still secret, but some objections people have are that the deal was negotiated in secret with the participation of industries that will be affected, that the deal would grant corporations the right to challenge laws which they feel may harm their profits, and that the deal would massively expand the aggressive intellectual property policies of the US government to the rest of the world.

In the US, the current president has fast-track authority on the deal, so he can call a vote at any time. This deal has been a favorite project of Obama for quite awhile, and he's expressed his intention to try to pass it before his term expires. In the senate, he almost certainly has the votes, but it might be defeated in the House of Representatives. I hope that people won't allow their opinion of the president to bias their evaluation of the TPP, which is opposed by both major nominees for president in the US, and has many detractors across the political spectrum.

If you're in the US, it could make a big impact to call your representative and let them know your views. If you aren't in the US, then you might still have opportunities to sign petitions, protest, or pressure your government about their position on the deal.

How does everyone feel about the TPP?

Here is a short train . Sorry it's not longer and that the games are trash, but I didn't realize that my GA quota was so low. This is my first train, and I also didn't realize that multi-key giveaways used multiple GA quota slots. After these are over tomorrow, I'll keep adding more games, and not all from the same bundle.

EDIT 9.22.2016: Train link updated with new games

7 years ago*

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Do you support the TPP?

View Results
Yes. I, for one, welcome our new corporate overlords
No, reject the TPP! (╯°□°)╯︵ ┻━┻
Meh.
I'm not in the US or any other state that is party to the deal

Don't know about TPP. But if it's going to be something TTIP, i'm not in favor.

7 years ago
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Bump ;)
Don't know TPP

7 years ago
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What's so bad about TPP?

7 years ago
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TPP is a globalist elite pet project meant for making them huge profit while opresing the middle ,,guys'' .

7 years ago
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I'm highly against the TPP. Gamers and people who dislike invasive DRM and things like hardware/region locking should look into what the TPP means in terms of international copyright law and enforcement, and what it potentially means to your ability to enjoy games and other digital media in the future.

Electronic Frontier Foundation writeup on the impact of the TPP on digital media distribution
(The EFF is one of the primary organizations that Humble Bundle donations default to -- and with good cause as it protects your digital freedom)

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7 years ago
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+1, all of this.

7 years ago
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In case you're not aware, American Indians and other protesters are trying to keep an oil pipeline from running through North Dakota (for whatever reason, mainstream media is barely making mention of it it otherwise there would be more noise), and arresting journalists for trespassing.This very well could be the beginning of bigger problems if TPP goes through.

7 years ago
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I also have heard about this, and I agree that it's pretty horrible. It is a shame that most traditional news outlet don't cover it.

7 years ago
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Welcome to Media Blackouts in the land of the "Free". You'd honestly be surprised at the massive amount of censorship that happens in this country.

7 years ago
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I'm well aware of the issue but I have no idea what its relation to TPP is

7 years ago
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It's a small example how states are losing its powers in favor of big business, and how corporate media glosses over important details which are covered more in depth by independent news outlets.

7 years ago
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still don't understand. the state/country wants the pipeline in north dakota. the native americans don't want it. The pipeline will be built, because the U.S. (1) allows private land owners to do whatever they want on their land, (2) will accept a court judgment that the pipeline project didn't violate any laws, and (3) doesn't give a shit about native americans

7 years ago
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You take this incident in North Dakota, and expand it to even more similar incidents happening globally with no repercussions or regard for various laws put into place in country after country that aims to protect countless watersheds, countless ecological systems, countless cultures dependent on the very lands which pipelines are built across. That is what you can expect to see happen under something such as TTIP or TTP. You could very well see international corporations sue sovereign nations to strip away hard earned protections meant to keep historical sites and national parks free of any sort of mining interests, logging interests, oil interests or whatever the case may be...that's what TPP could open the door to. And there would be no regress, no real ability to fight something like that from happening, given that corporate movements allowed by something such as the TPP or the TTIP wouldn't stand a chance in an "independent" court or panel governed mainly by corporate attorneys, corporate leaders and their lackeys within every level of government. The threat posed by TPP extends to every single area of our lives one could name, and thekuribo nailed another example on the head with his post regarding how gamers should be concerned where DRM free content is concerned with.

The point is, this fallacy of an agreement is being hammered down our throats by a President who, in supporting an agreement like TPP and an earlier, equally horrific "free trade" agreement in the vein of what is called KORUS, has turned out over the past 8 years to be a corporate puppet, another centrist liar who identifies as neoliberal, to our collective detriment as a people, no matter what political stripe we show on the surface. I'll give another example of what kind of risk the TPP poses to us all, and more specifically gamers. Let's say, for example, you were to open your own game publishing business, okay? You produce your first ever game tailor made by you...we're talking maybe hundreds of hours of work, if not more, into an act of love and creativity that you had always wanted to do. You put this game up for sale. It becomes a best seller. Normally, that would be a good thing, right? Now, let's say this happens after TPP is put into place as law, and a company like EA gets wind of your game, and decides that somehow it violates a copyright of a completely different game they happen to own the rights to, and maybe this decision is made on the most ridiculous thing - an object you placed in your game that they filed a patent for without your knowledge or anyone else. Under this scenario, they could file a suit against you with this international court of arbiters (again, most of whom are composed of corporate bigwigs and lawyers), and you would have no way, no ability to fight back. Your rights under US law in this scenario would be superseded by the demands the TPP imposes on our nation...and under this scenario, you end up having to cease sales of this game, your publishing business goes under, and EA gets the rights to your game and no credit to you whatsoever, while you're left in the dust with a completely empty bank account because this international court, in addition to siding with EA, ordered you to pay EA an exorbitant amount for "copyright infringement".

The Dakota Access Pipeline issue that still is going on right underneath our noses, along with the aforementioned scenario I just gave you, are just two prime examples of what we are all facing if TPP is allowed to pass into law. And President Obama, from every noticeable standpoint, seems to have taken the stance that he is willing to fast track this deal through Congress (much of which answers to the same corporate overlords as he does) and get it signed into law, damn the risk and the nightmarish laws that would be imposed on the United States regardless of what our own Constitution, what our own laws even, may say in terms of civil litigation and the ability of corporate outfits to do what they please with the backing of an international court of corporate leaders who are granted the right to dictate how each country will answer to their whims, and not to each country's own sovereign laws and regulations. And with respect to media coverage? I find that outside of a few mentions here and there, most of our own so-called media is refusing to cover most of what the TPP is, and what exact kind of threat it poses to not only our economy, but our workforce, our civil laws, the content we read and watch, the games we play, the brands of clothing we have, the medicines we take, the kind of medical treatment we seek...almost every aspect of our lives will be dominated by how an unelected old rich white CEO thinks we should live our lives, buy what we buy with our money, work how he thinks we should work (which, let's face it, is barely a step above slavery and is virtually in lockstep with what once was called serfdom through medieval Europe). And yet our media focuses on an orange Whopper eating asshole day in, day out, going on and on about the drama he creates that brings in hundreds of millions of free advertising dollars. Our media, instead, prefers to focus on that and the antics of sports figures who truly don't appear to do much for society's long term survival, brainless celebrity twits who parade before the cameras to gain more attention...I rarely see any coverage of that.

As for DAPL itself, and Standing Rock? Outside of Democracy Now, a few glossed over reports by some corporate news outlets (NBC anyone?), and relatively unknown - at least to the majority of Americans - internet based progressive journalist outfits, nothing has been said of DAPL or of Energy Transfer Partners Corporation's virtual criminal behavior. No mention of the fact that this pipeline would be at risk of causing the worse environmental disaster in human history if there was a spill - all that oil spilling into the entire Mississippi River, destroying the drinking water forever for millions of Americans of every color, every national origin, every religion, both genders, every age who live and depend on the Mississippi for their very livelihoods. The economic factors at work with the Mississippi River? Destroyed if a spill ever happened. Clean drinking water? A mere distant happy memory...if a spill were to happen. In terms of the pipeline's location, they've already deliberately bulldozed right over identified burial sites and religious sites the Sioux tribe identified in court as vital to their heritage as a people - and it was done not even 12 hours after the very maps containing this information were unveiled within a court room. I can almost hear the CEO of Energy Transfer Partners saying this: "Well, there's nothing there now, so why don't they just give up and let us build?" They're even doing this on the Sioux's lands...lands that were guaranteed to these people by treaty...and as previously noted by the tribe itself, this is the third time the US government has broken a treaty with their tribe, and this time it was in favor of an unelected board of old rich white men who buy our elected leaders' loyalty with their money so they can get rich quick without giving a damn as to the consequences of their actions. And again, to strike the same theme, this is the exact thing we're facing with TPP, only played out on a global scale. And no one in our so-called media is interested in covering any of this, if only because they find anything that Trump says to be funny as hell and they find that it keeps them rich. You asked for an answer, you got it.

7 years ago*
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TLDR: So you don't like to read?

Where on earth did you pull that out of your ass?
Anyway, nice ramblings, lots of fallacy.

Now, let's say this happens after TPP is put into place as law, and a company like EA gets wind of your game, and decides that somehow it violates a copyright of a completely different game they happen to own the rights to, and maybe this decision is made on the most ridiculous thing - an object you placed in your game that they filed a patent for without your knowledge...

Yeah, they can do this already, in just about every country. That's the whole point of copyright law. Let's try the inverse. How about if you go through all that effort to create a game, then someone copies it, but changes a few of the still images, and now sells it for real money, that you don't get any of.
Copyright protection is a good thing, in that it allows people to reap the benefit of their hard work. But there should be limits as to the extent of copyright protection. We can all agree that if ID was given a patent for 1st person shooters, or Westwood Studios for RTS games, it'd suck. So the real argument shouldn't be, and isn't, between choosing the extremes, it should be about where the happy middle ground is.

the nightmarish laws that would be imposed on the United States regardless of what our own Constitution,

Actually, U.S. law considers international agreements to be on par with Federal law, meaning they cannot violate the constitution. If TPP violates the constitution it is null and void

this pipeline would be at risk of causing the worse environmental disaster in human history

Seen that argument. Probably true. Still not sure what this has to do with TPP.
Note that the Army Corps of Engineers evaluated the pipeline and considered it acceptable. doesn't mean it's not a fair point. I will say that my knowledge of engineering is insufficient, and I'd like to hope that the risks have been evaluated, though I have my reservations. Any mistake here would be disastrous.
also, the pipeline is not going over sioux lands; it's passing close by, but not going through the reservation. I do agree with a bunch of other issues, such as the desecration of burial grounds, most of which I actually agree with you

7 years ago
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Have to agree. Not sure what that had to do with TPP.

7 years ago
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the problem with a large number of people, who tend to be on the far end of (any) ideological spectrum, is that they conflate issues, and they get riled up on half-truths without critically looking into the details. Yes, they read a lot, but only articles/authors/publications that tend to agree with their viewpoint (aka confirmation bias). Often critical of mainstream media, and think that anyone who's not with them is against them.
Given a chance, these people are the most vocal about their opinions, and least willing to compromise

7 years ago
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If you don't want to read or look at infographics, here is an easy to digest TLDR; video clip:

YouTube: TPP BAD!
Created by represent.us - An organization that fights corporate-sponsored government corruption


Here's a little more in-depth video clip with Bernie Sanders opposing the TPP:

Bernie Sanders vs. the TPP

7 years ago
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Bump and meow. We cats think you should accept the inevitable and worship us the way the Egyptians used to.

7 years ago
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Bump :3

7 years ago
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If the big corporations like it we are probably not gonna do it too.

7 years ago
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Yup, I support it. If you look at history, free trade agreements are always beneficial in the long run. Away with unnecessary trade barriers, tariffs, and ludicrous regulation.

7 years ago
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Thanks for adding your opinion! :)

I don't intend to argue with you or everyone who disagrees, but I did want to let you know that actually many economists feel that, at least for the US, it won't actually increase free trade. Although it's being presented as a free trade deal, only a small portion of it actually has anything to do with trade, and there are significant barriers to trade that it introduces. Here is an article that talks about whether or not it's about free trade, and here are some quotes from the link:

“We already have trade agreements with six of the 11 countries. Canada and Mexico — our two biggest trading partners — are in there. The tariffs are almost zero [with those countries] anyhow,” Dean Baker, an economist at the Center for Economic and Policy Research, told The Intercept. “What’s in the deal? Higher patent and copyright protection! That’s protectionism.”

Concerns that the TPP would lead to even more job losses “are real and I think that the political discussion is responding to those concerns from both parties,” Melinda St. Louis, director of international campaigns at Public Citizen, told The Intercept. But, she noted, “I do think that the trade aspects of the TPP are a small part of it. It’s only six of 30 chapters that have to do with trade and goods really at all. The rest of it is about setting global rules.”

7 years ago
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the title kinda says it all. Of course a free trade organization helps corporate profits.

Basically, trade agreements do the following:
1) allow businesses to do business in other countries on equal terms to businesses in those countries
2) incentivize companies to take advantage of whichever country provides a more amenable environment

  • this means putting factories in countries with cheaper cost of labor
  • the result is that workers in the more expensive countries lose their jobs
  • it also means that products are cheaper for consumers, because the cost of manufacture are lower
    3) protect business interests in those other countries
  • improved intellectual property protections make companies more willing to bring their intellectual property to those countries
  • increase revenue from intellectual property

My view is very simple. I like being able to buy $10 jeans, and $20 sneakers. I like that it's possible to buy an HD TV for under $100. I also support free movement of people if and when they want; the fact that there's more economic opportunity in their home country means that a lot less people need to move somewhere else. So yeah, I like the advantages of a free trade agreement. Lucky for me, I don't perform unskilled labor in a country with high wages, so it's not my job going overseas.

7 years ago
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Yeah , but the problem is not with the free trade part but with the other attached points:

  • No generic medicine anymore , you should buy the one with the big pharmaceutical mark on it (So, no cheaper ones )
  • Any company could sue a state over loss of profits (even environmental laws for example)

These two are some examples of why it is awful for most countries .

7 years ago
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1) no generics is one thing, but are they getting rid of cost controls? Truth of the matter is that, in most developed countries, governments can and do control costs in plenty of other ways. The exclusivity part has pros and cons, but do keep in mind that most new drugs are developed by private companies, and those companies do need to recoup their investment (though, some of the price gouging that goes on is beyond excuse). But countries like Canada and England have legal procedures in place that prevent a company from, for example, raising the price of a drug from $1 to $750 for no justifiable reason. note that this drug hasn't had patent protection in decades

2) The ability of a company to sue a state over loss of profits is actually immensely logical. Just to use an exaggerated hypothetical. What if Country A's company builds a billion dollar factory in Country B. Then, country B changes the zoning law just for that one parcel of land, such that the company cannot operate the factory. The company is forced to sell the land for next to nothing to a buyer in country B. Now Country B again changes the zoning law so that the new buyer can operate the factory.
Yes, that's an extreme example, but it has actually happened in the past. The idea behind a country being able to sue a state for loss of profit is to (a) prevent that kind of corruption, and (b) to give businesses confidence to actually operate in foreign countries, knowing that their investment is protected.
Yes, there are some issues with it, such as ever evolving environmental laws, but, at the same time there's a great advantage to it too. as an aside, I have a friend who sells political risk insurance, which provides the same kind of protection. Depending on the country, you really shouldn't do business abroad without it

7 years ago
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There is no such a thing as cost controls of medicine over here (Peru) . So , they can go from $1 to $750 without reason if the want , the only reason we have decent prices is because of generics.
Private companies with public funds. Also, they are able to recoup their investments, but not forever.
Let me give you a small example.
I had to put vaccines to my 2 month old girl last week, the generic one (given via the health ministry) is free(Well, small price, like 5 cents , but covered via insurance) . The non-generic vaccine (same shit , just with a big name ) is 300$ , and that is 2 out of the 4 ones.
Also, normally a generic is 1% to 30% of the price of the non-generic one .

I disagree about point B. In fact, check wikipedia for some examples on ISDS https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trans-Pacific_Partnership .
Your example is ridiculous . Why the people from country B should pay for loss of profits. You should sue for other reasons (I am not a lawyer , but my dad is ) , not for loss of profits, like corruption or something along the lines , In fact , that is how it works currently. So , if I have a game X that makes fun of people of Country B, should I sue the country if they don't want to buy that game, because they are offended by it and I lost a lot of money? (This is a ridiculous claim of course).
Why are the companies over the state? Granted , no company should lost all their assets over a corrupt government, but shit happens and that is part of the risk, that is why they get the big bucks, right?
(Note: Normally companies can do what they want in our country , for a small example , telefonica (peru main isp and phone operator) owes the state over 1/2 billion of Dollars , so , why should we give them more power, they can use the ISDS provision to claim that paying taxes is a loss on their profits)

With that said, why are the meetings secret ? Why there is no information other than leaks?

TL;DR : The current state of TPP is making some countries to be less than the lapdog of international companies....

7 years ago
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companies won't be able to sue for bad business decisions, it's for when governments change the law resulting in loss of profit they would have kept otherwise. (i.e. corruption or protectionism)

ISDS does not allow a country to sue over not paying taxes, but it does allow companies to sue for new taxes that specifically target that company's business. There's a distinction.

Now, it's worth noting that there are disadvantages, such as if a company decides to improve their environmental protections, and possibly also worker protections. but I've seen first-hand where a government accused a company of mistreating its workers just so they could gain financial concessions. (hell, the U.S. even managed to legalize political extortion).
So the real question is, is the trade-off worth it. Do the business protections and greater economic benefits outweigh the cost that will be imposed for a company to change their business laws? and it's worth noting that countries can still change those laws. just that they'll need to compensate companies for loss of profits due to those changes

Also, does it really make a difference if a government benefits the local corrupt billionaire, or the foreign corrupt billionaire?

7 years ago
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Do you have a source for that ? I saw an entry on wikipedia where it said someone sued over changing the minimum wage .
Also, what is different from current Free Trade Treaties? There is nothing new on that side on TPP , just new regulations .

7 years ago
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Okay, let me do a quick-n-easy® check of the mentioned source.

Dean Baker, Center for Economic and Policy Research

Let's see..
Wikipedia is usually not that bad for a start.

The Center for Economic and Policy Research (CEPR) is an economic policy think-tank that was founded in 1999 by economists Dean Baker and Mark Weisbrot.[2] It has been described as both progressive[3] and left-leaning.[4][5][6] CEPR is based in Washington, DC.

Probably can't count this one as independent or unbiased..

What else.. Oy, now that is something.

[..] "A U.S. Policy of Non-intervention in Venezuela Would Be a Welcome Change" written for the New York Times, Weisbrot blamed the U.S. for many of Venezuela's economic problems [..]

CEPR studies the socioeconomic situation in Venezuela as well. In a July 2014 article titled "How to fix Venezuela's troubled exchange rate" written for Fortune magazine, Weisbrot attributes many of Venezuela's economic problems to their current monetary policies such as the government's exchange rate system.[21] In a June 2016 article titled "A U.S. Policy of Non-intervention in Venezuela Would Be a Welcome Change" written for the New York Times, Weisbrot blamed the U.S. for many of Venezuela's economic problems: "Washington has caused enormous damage to Venezuela in its relentless pursuit of 'regime change' for the last 15 years."[22]

The Center for Economic and Policy Research has been described as supporting Hugo Chávez and the Venezuelan government[23][24][25] with some of the data presented by CEPR along with Weisbrot being accused of using slanted information to support the Venezuelan government.[26][27][28][29] CEPR staff members such as Mark Weisbrot and Deborah James have attended pro-Venezuelan government events alongside other activists such as Daniel Kovalik.[30][31][32][33][34]

So, what do we have? An economic policy institute, Board members (and founders) like Mark Weisbrot, associated with activists like Daniel Kovalik.
Oh boy..
If you think that defending the Venezuelan government makes you look competent in regard of questions of economy, you are very gravely mistaken.

So, I would rate the economic expertise credibility of CEPR at, well, zero.

By the way, I would always take a source like The Intercept with a grain of salt...

7 years ago
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TPP is very simple: it's about making a legal background for transnational companies to sue countries for their laws, and win money from the citizens. It is an attempt to officially make international economic lobbies superior to states, and deny them the right to rule themselves like they want. Also, anybody who says "legal procedure", says lawyer(s) and fees, so no doubt it will only profit to big companies able to do expensive long-term legal action.
TL;DR I'm strongly against this secret agreement.
Edit: my bad, I made a mistake: I'm talking about TTIP (US-Europa), not TPP. I wouldn't be surprised to find myself right anyway, but that's another story :)

7 years ago*
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That is also part of TPP

7 years ago
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B

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7 years ago
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I won't attempt to summarize the details of the massive 'trade agreement', many of which are still secret, but some objections people have are that the deal was negotiated in secret with the participation of industries that will be affected, that the deal would grant corporations the right to challenge laws which they feel may harm their profits, and that the deal would massively expand the aggressive intellectual property policies of the US government to the rest of the world.

therein lies the main problem with the TPP

7 years ago
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That is for negotiation, not for ratification. It will be known in the end..

7 years ago
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most people don't understand the distinction. or why it's important to keep it secret while negotiations are ongoing

7 years ago
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Can you explain why it is important to keep it secret while negotiations are ongoing?

7 years ago
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because otherwise politics gets in the way.
Let's say that there is one provision (#1) that matters most to country A. The negotiator from country A may try to push for two provisions (#1 and #2). The negotiator will be willing to lose on position #2 and use it as a bargaining chip to win provision #1. (look, I'll give up #2, if you'll give me #1).

Now let's say this is all public. Some interest group gets upset about #1, and publicly starts to oppose the deal. Opportunistic politicians latch on to #1, and instruct the negotiator to drop #1. Now the negotiator has no more leverage.

(or, from a more practical scale, if the provision can be scored from 1 to 10, instead of trying to get an 8 or a 9, the negotiator might be in the position of defending to hold onto a 6 or a 7)
It's impossible to be a tough negotiator, when the party on whose behalf you're negotiating is making their opinions known.

for a great example, just watch this

7 years ago
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If it's as bad as TTIP then people should be protesting it.

7 years ago
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It's all just propaganda..

7 years ago
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Sure , of course .
Seems you know less of TPP that you seems to say
(I live in one of the countries that are currently being affected by TPP)

7 years ago
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It is..
The scapegoat du jour..

7 years ago
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Why the points on the trade are secret?
There is a lot of horrible stuff over there . The ISDS provision is the worst one (so far)

7 years ago
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ISDS is nothing new..

7 years ago
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Really, that is your answer?
Also ISDS is new for us. Maybe not for you.

It seems there is no argument on your side other than TPP is good, all hail our new overlods!

7 years ago
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New overlord, old overlord, what's the differnce?

7 years ago
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Bump, thanks. :)

7 years ago
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Personally, I like the benefits of free trade, which is cheaper cost of goods. The only thing is that I think free trade agreements should insist on equal levels of worker protection / safety, and strong child-labor laws, so that it becomes more about economies of scale and less about exploiting other workers.

The rest is really not as big a deal as everyone makes out. The legal issues are basically a mechanism to prevent countries from breaking the agreement surreptitiously

7 years ago
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View attached image.
7 years ago
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7 years ago
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Bumpo

7 years ago
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I'm in favor of fair and open trade but the TPP isn't fair and it isn't open.

7 years ago
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7 years ago
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Not opinion about that, but take a bump!

7 years ago
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I am Cornholio. I need TPP for my bunghole.

7 years ago
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Bump

7 years ago
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bump

7 years ago
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