Put them in Steam Wallet. Safest way to grant happiness.
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Lock them up in a chest. Wait 100 years. Sell em' as ancient relics = profit.
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You mean like Confederate States of America Currency. lol
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euro is high as beep in exchange rate. I hate that !!
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The power of a currency has NOTHING to do with the wealth of a country (almost nothing, anyway). If that was so, it would mean that the UK is the richest country in the world...which is obviously NOT the case. it just means that the said country has a low rate of inflation, which is definitely determining factor, but not a crucial one. Anyhow, our conversation was ONLY related to which of the coins is the strongest. And at least for the moment, that would DEFINITELY be EURO. It's just basic maths. Your statement is just one driven by pure nationalistic, typical " 'Murican" sentiment.
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you dont understand, its not about quantity for one dollar
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USD is the worlds best currency because of one reason as of today; it is the Worlds Reserve Currency. But all paper money that is printed freely will cause eventual inflation then hyper-inflation and be worthless if not stopped. Food and basic trade skills are the best currency. At present the Euro is being devaluated by Greece and the Dollar by its own Federal Reserve. Germany is the strong lynch pin for the Euro.
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Yep, right on that one. When € goes high to $ all Euro banks go banana's and do all in their power to devalue. Euro will stagnate as always as it missed it's one chance to replace dollars in the early 2000's.
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this is a misunderstanding of the word potential i think on hmunkey's part. i think hmunkey meant potential as inn "latent qualities or abilities that may be developed and lead to future success or usefulness." instead of potential as actual value. both are correct definitions in this context
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It does, especially since China and Russia, India switched from USD to their currencies for inter country trades. Soon other large markets will follow to, like Brazil and other South American countries. Also, moment the China calls for US debt, US will start printing money meaning even less potential.
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doesn't countries pay other countries with gold and raw materials instead of money?
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In precious metals, yes, but extremely rare. Its better to give "paper" then gold. As for materials, yes, but its usually part of common goods treaty, ie. 2 countries have automotive factories, and they exchange one for another in value without using money.
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Moment the Chinese call back the US Debt..
Japan currently holds more US debt, even if both countries called in the proverbial chips, it would only be ~1/7th of the US total debt. If paid in cash, it would triple current US currency circulation.
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china owns over 100 billion $ of USA debt. if they decide to cash out they can collapse USD. so yeah if one country can destroy the entier currency you cant say it has more potential.
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if they decide to do that maybe usa will collapse, then what ? where will china sell their goods ? think about it
its all chained/connected, they can do shit about usa debt, and thats the whole beauty about it
they cant attack, cant block usa etc
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If you really are into 'potential' things you should invest in JPY and GBP and neither in EUR or USD (It was really different two years ago when the EUR was playing a league above the USD btw). The EUR lost quite a bit mainly due to Greece, but it's still quite on par with the USD in terms of potential. If the EU ever sorts the pathetic Greece debacle (as in give them them a nice kick out of the EUR) the currency will gain again. I agree that it right now doesn't have more potential than the USD (and even slightly less 'value').
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No, but the Greek economy might. The Euro as a whole will be fine, although it will possibly devalue to parity with the dollar.
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And France to a lesser degree. But the Euro will lose a lot of credibility (no pun intended) if countries can jump in and out on a whim.
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Greece needs to get out of the EUR and fast. If the stability pact doesn't mean anything and nations can abuse it without any problems, the EUR will fall apart.
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greece was an expiriment for europe, no one simply believed or cared how the people feels about it.Germany made us buy their weaponary, which the half WAS NOT FUCTIONABLE(including 2 PUMA ,or what their name is , choopers, some guns and 3 ships).Then it was the SIEMENS scandal,u know the one German electric apliances company,and the fact that they have made a word of the exit from eurozone(grexit) prooves that greece were just money for them.Sure, kick us but believe me, many more will follow the same path.
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Yep, Greece is doing fine and Germany is just plain evil by paying their bills. Greece is bankrupt for several years now and nobody cares. Actually Angela Merkel is a key figure at keeping this charade up. If you really think that staying in the EU is doing Greece any good then god bless you and all the best to your deluded mind.
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There is definitelly indication for the euro to get a dive for awhile ... but i can see it coming back to its feet really fast tho .
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That's poppycock. Euro is very good. Greece's crisis is hitting it a little, but if they go back to their traditional coin (which seems more likely to happen with each day) it'll actually actually sky-rocket.
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Depends. The Greece leaving eurozone could improve the euro-rates, but also the simple fact that a country can and will(?) leave the euro-zone and maybe (I don't really know about this, things change so fast) even the EU will undermine the stability of EU as a whole, and this could result in the drop of euro's value.
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Other side of the argument: member countries with weak economy and no real signs of improvement despite getting cash support from other members also undermine the stability - at least for the currency.
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Absolutely, and the recent weakening of the euro is mainly because of the greek problem + money from EU spent on trying to regulate the ecomony. While it contributes the current value of euro, if Green continues to be EU member without solving the money problems (but hopefully they'll be able to get it right, currently I'm not really envious of the Green people :) it can surely negatively affect euro's value
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Well, it's like this: EURO will be worth a but-load of drahmas, cause when a country prints out money artificially to cover a deficit it creates a little thing called inflation, but since the drahma won't be worth shit cause of that inflation, EURO's growth will just be apparent, for it will actually DEVALUE compared to other strong currencies such as USD or the British pound. So yeah, you're right, it will be kind of bad for all European countries, not just the stupid Greeks (who are all a bunch of lazy, imbecilic ass-holes who sit on their asses and expect people to hand them out money in exchange for... nothing, rejecting the more or less reasonable conditions that the creditors set out for them). But as for EURO disappearing or completely collapsing or whatever else bullshit the OP is afraid of, c'mon...that's fucking nuts.
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Also, a problem: they got rid of the drahma-printing machines. They literally don't have them, so can't return to it, at least not too soon.
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Aha...well duuuh, at an unemployment rate of 26% someone has to try to pick up the slack... But guess what: it's NOT NEARLY ENOUGH. Let me say this again, so you can realize how mind-blowing this is: this is a civilized country, part of the EU, NOT from Subsaharan Africa that has an unemployment rate of TWENTY-SIX FUCKING PERCENT... AWESOME!!!
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The unemployment rate doesn't go up because of laziness you know...
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it does when ass-holes retire at ages 40 or less and receive pensions without doing ANYTHING and further increase the black hole in the country's budget.
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Actually, that should decrease the unemployment rate and it's an exception not the rule.
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this conversation is so embarassing to read, please stop while you can masteryoda12032139012
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WOW, why cause you imbeciles defend the ass-holes that prefer to starve and drag everyone else in the EU with them then to receive help? No, thank you.
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While what you're saying could be partly true, the form is what is losing you.
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Its funny from a Romanian who calling my people lazy, you talk like i am not here.
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And excuse me, what's wrong with us Romanians? We have a lower unemployment rate than Greece, we don't get retired at 40 or less and when we were in a shitty situation like this we tightened the belt (boy, did we ever?) and we pulled through. We sure as hell DID NOT ask hand-outs from external creditors, the way you do. So...joke's on you. And we paid a great deal of our debt...at a great cost, I might add. We never got to the point where banks imposed limits to the amounts of money people can pull out of their accounts. So please..fuck off, cause you don't know wtf you're taking about.
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"And excuse me, what's wrong with us Romanians?"
Go and ask that here in Amsterdam, before you can finish your sentence you already lost your wallet to the Romanian pickpockets that operate there.
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Yes, and so the 20 million of us still left in our own country are to blame for them? Also, most of them are gypsies with Romanian nationality. And I'm not being racist here. I admit it, we have a very big problem in schooling and educating them and they just earn their living this way. We get robbed by them here as much as foreigners do in their respective countries. You're gonna blame the hard-working people that suffered the awful budget cuts in 2009 for what unemployed ass-hole riff-raff do? Seriously? Now that's thoroughly xenophobic. There are other countries who have a problem with gypsies (or are you naive enough to think the entire gypsy population of Europe comes from one country?), yet somehow we managed to be the scapegoats for all of them.
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Meanwhile all Greeks are lazy... yeah so true.
Busted my friend...
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No you didn't. You just annoyed me with your xenophobic cunt remarks. I don't criticize Greeks for what some of their people do, I criticize them for what they, as a NATION expect from the rest of us: HAND-OUTS. You can sugar-coat it all you want, but the Greek people have no desire or intention of EVER paying their debts.
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Exactly, just as xenophobic as your post. Glad I annoyed you though.
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Sooo...it's not true what I said? That they're ass-holes that wish to be pardoned of their debt and receive further loans just for..I dunna...being Greeks? Continue to live in the fantasy world that you curled into.
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Try speaking with some Greek people don't just take all the info from the media. You make it sound like the Greeks like to be in this situation.
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What's to talk about? They had a vote and 61% of them officially REFUSED to accept the austerity measures, did they not? My country was in a similar situation and we caved almost immediately. And our external debt was lower than 100% of the GDP. Theirs is 176% (let that sink in after you read it). And we lowered it to 38% in the present. We suffered a little because of the said measures, but now we're ok. They refuse even the mere discussion of making some concessions.They don't like being in this situation(who the hell would?), but they're IMBECILES and don't realize that this is the ONLY solution.
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I know right? Jeez you really are one of the most stupid ignorant people I ever had the "pleasure" of meeting online.
You ignorant bigot.
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Prince of bigots, give me a break. Your attitude mate is pathetic. On the one side you accuse me cause i only dislike the gays, but you dislike other races which is much more despicable and shameful. Are you a nazi descendant bigot?
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I just did the same as Yoda did to show him he has a biased opinion about the people in Greece and how it's not funny if your people gets generalized.
You wouldn't understand since you're a gay hating bigot with a lot of room in your empty bigot skull. And where do you get that I'm a nazi?
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I'm what? I'm Romanian, you idiot. Also, my country may be fucked up in many ways, but we do NOT have an unemployment rate of 26% thank you very much. And we do not retire and get pensions at 40. So...yeah, they're lazy ass-holes, true and true. Also, they expect to be helped with their external debt, yet they're not wiling to compromise on ANY austerity measures. They are effectively expecting hand-outs. Don't get more douchier than that
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people in greece are not unemployed because they are lazy but because there are no jobs.
all industries are at counties with low salaries and there are no big companies investing in greece at the moment.
there are ever people with masters working as bartenders or something because they can't find anything else.
learn the difference about unemployment and laziness and then try to post something.
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We have here officialy unemployment of 10% (noone knows really how it's in reality) and people here also makes masters and go to work in shops, bars and so on. So it's not only because of unepmloyment, but because there isn't any work for people with certain education which is fault of educational system.
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riterement at 40?? are u crazy? 60+ and may even not get...
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Dude, Romanians are not Roma. They are two very different ethnicities.
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"not just the stupid Greeks (who are all a bunch of lazy, imbecilic ass-holes who sit on their asses and expect people to hand them out money in exchange for... nothing," Wow, what a bunch of hateful shit. No wonder I blacklisted you ages ago. You don't deserve to call yourself Yoda.
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They expect other nations to help them with money so they can get out of the crapper in which they, themselves AND NO ONE ELSE put them, yet they're not willing to compromise AN INCH to get that money. They are literally expecting HAND-OUTS. So, tell me, how is the truth hateful? Someone going to a bank and getting a loan is expected to pay that money back, cause nothing in this world is for free. Why should it be any different for a country? Ass-holes expect the IMF to just forgive their debt and give them more money? Uum..why would anyone do that? Entitled and arrogant ass-holes deserve ALL of my hate. When my country was in a similar pickle, we conceded to the demands that were made of us by our creditors. We suffered like hell, but we pulled trough. SO FUCK OFF!! Blacklist me all you want. Still doesn't change the truth.
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Yeah guys, stop generalizing about Master "FUCK OFF!!" Yoda's people, and hear his accurate, informed, totally original, and dare I say, open-minded take on the events taking place on a bigger scale you, ignorant forum reading bunch, can't apprehend properly.
So much wisdom I can feel the bytes trying to kill each others in his enlightening messages.
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Hmm...I never knew that Greek was a race. I guess you find out new things every day. I think the word you were looking for was "xenophobe" (you're welcome). And no, I'm not one. Until this thing, I couldn't give a rat's ass about Greece or its people. My only problem is their bullshit: attitude: expecting to receive money FOR NOTHING. And I called them out on that. SIMPLE AS THAT.
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Agh..IT DID...AWKWARD... And when it did we issued some pretty nasty austerity measures, like the IMF told us to. And we didn't even have a third of the external debt that Greece now has. So..yeah...
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And that it gives you the right to talk bad to other ppl and their country?Since you been in this situtation before.Well i'm done with you,stop talking about my country i dont speak about yours.I dont want lessons from you and certally dont want your FUCKING HELP.I'll try to be nice and polite but enough.Ok?
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Not just me. ALL of US have the right to talk about it. You know why? Because what you imbeciles do (and by "imbeciles" I mean the 61% jack-asses that voted "NO") is completely fail to realize that what you do affects EVERYONE, not just you. Otherwise, do you think Angela Merkel or...anyone would give a shit about you? hell, even the American countries are eager to see how this shitty situation plays out. They're an ocean away and not part of the EU, right? Why should they care? - said every ignorant ass-hole who has no idea how the world works, EVER... And your bullshit "proud" attitude of not accepting help because it comes with strings attached (what doesn't in life?) is NOT doing ANYONE any good, certainly not you people. You're forbidden to withdraw more than 50 EURO per day from your ATMs, for fuck's sake... That's how fucked up your country is now. So shove it, prince of Europe, cause it's not about you.
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There is a polite way to say what you want and a hate way,you choose the second.You dont know anything about my country you belive only what others say to you and media.Wrong.And yes prince of Europe you too it is about me.Because before you get into Europe you where just a spot.And now you want to have an opinion.A country with nothing.Your womans come to my country asking for a job,marry someone just to have the visa.Give me a break you dont know me,i dont know you and i dont want to know you.Try once in your life to make a converstastion without to be rude.
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Who the fuck said anything about knowing you? I'm just talking general facts here. First of which is that what happens to your piece of shit country affects us all. If your country was as awesome as you describe it, it wouldn't have an external debt of 176% of its GDP. Romania has NEVER had that in its entire history. Probably not even when we were paying tribute to the Ottoman Empire at the end of the XXVII century. I can't even fathom how such a thing is possible. Oh wait...yes I can, it's because your country produces NOTHING and all you've been doing in the last 20 years is live on borrowed money. Very luxuriously, I might add. And this dissing of my country is so pathetic... At least i can get my money out of an ATM and don't have to settle for 50 euro a day like a beggar. That's how bad you ppl have it and you still say you don''t need help. Truly a nation of imbeciles... You can continue to deny that what happens to you doesn't affect anyone but you, but that won't make it become magically true
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I think you made your point now, please stop insulting people now. :)
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i'm really waiting for a permanent ban here.
learn to talk like an adult and not a whinny kid
also learn to talk when you live in a situation and not safely out of it,not only you haven't lived in greece the past 5 years but also you are not yet under the euro currency.
the NO we said was not that we don't want to pay back but because we want to pay but with less people under the line of poverty(meaning not be able to have the basics like food,electricity etc)
what we wait here is for the goverment to start taxing more the rich people(all of them voted yes) and not the poor,taxes were raised to poor people by 300% the last years and only 10% to the rich and europe still wants to fuck up the poor with more taxes and cuts
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Permaban...yeah, you're funny... Also, you think you're gonna sway me with your left-wing bullshit propaganda? it's this kind of ultra-socialist, almost marxist thinking that brought you to this place. If the state wasn't the biggest employer in your country perhaps you wouldn't have ran out of liquidities by now. Which in turn would not have marched the unemployment rate to these insane numbers. Because it's obvious how a lot of people lost their jobs cause teh state could not afford to pay them anymore: the mother of all vicious circles. And in this most dire hour, what did you do? Oh right, you put in power the WORST PEOPLE IMAGINABLE: left-wing extremist nut-jobs (Tsipras and his posse). Way to go! And more than that, you let yourselves be manipulated by the almost bolshevic crap propaganda that they spoon-feed you. Telling you you're entitled to privileges that any other country would NOT have in your place, because...I dunna...you're Greeks and you're better than anybody else? Money doesn't grow on trees, NO ONE has to help pro bono, and the conditions that were set out for you are MORE THAN REASONABLE. So you have ONLY yourselves to blame.
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left wing was just elected in january all these years the right wing was in goverment from '75 till now.they were the ones who borrowed money without tomorrow and used those money for their benefit and you want them in goverment again?no thanks we had enough of them.also i'm not with any left wing or right wing or whatever,i don't fkn care i just want to live like a normal person and only this goverment tries to do something about it.
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The fact is that asking the entire Greek populace to pay for the way that their corrupt government and rich oligarchs handled their wealth is extremely problematic.
My favorite part of this whole thing has to be the fact that good ole Germany asked for and got debt relief in the 1950s! And I don't think Greece has committed war crimes anywhere near the same level as that country. Can't help but find it all ironic.
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You do realize that Greece has been doing this for over a decade now and never even tried to get even? Have you even read up how the current Greek government is trying to keep up just with the interest payments? You think you can really relate this to the time that Germany had to pay its debts to other countries after a war while Greece has done nothing else than lie and just dish out fake promises? You might want to take a deep breath and have a look at what Germany has done after the 1950s for Europe. Can you really say the same about Greece?
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We are a bunch of lazy people,sit in our asses and waiting for you to send us your money to save us.My friend we working very hard and more hours than other.I dont speak much about my country - Greece - but when i speak,i speak gently and kind so and for other countries.I'm not racist and if people want my help,i help them as much as i can,i dont hit them more.Thats your opinion for Greece people and its wrong.I cant change it and i wont,we have democrasy after all.And before you or anyone else judge me about my english i say to them.I'll try to speak English so you can a little bit to understand me can you speak Greek so i can understand you?Thanks.
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if you think that here in Greece we are lazy i am sure that you dont even know what it means the word "work"!and also if you think that we are the stupid ones you are so wrong but i cant put brain in rasist guys! kisses from Greece...
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No, ofc it won't, even if Greece goes down the shitter. It might take somewhat of a dive, which is great for me since my country still retains it's currency so i will be paying less for games :)
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Diasagree, if Greece leaves the Euro, the Euroarea will collapse.
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Lmao yeah, right, a country that's only been a drain on the EU economy for the last few years is gonna kill the euro if it leaves the EU. Also Greece has no interest in doing it either. Who are they gonna keep leeching money off if they leave the EU. The EU won't collapse but i know sure as hell that they will if they do it.
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You're so naive. If Greece leaves, it will not be 18 instead of 19. Read what Paul Krugman said about the subject.
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A: Let's burn this shit and look cool.
B: Yeah it will be awesome! But.... I don't have money to buy a lighter though.
A: Crap, use some of the matches small stores give out for free.
B: Oh, right! Let's do this man.
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I know right? Those dumbies wanted to look cool :P
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T-thats more than what I gain in a year
I dont know if I should cry or rage
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It's a fake... don't cry , i have had 500 euros before and it wasn't like that... just look at the numbers it has upside down.. it says like 002 lol
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Whatever happens, we as the people won't have much influence on it.
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Greece will have the hardest times ahead, if Portugal/Italy or other debt riddled countries decide to go similar paths
then its going get worse ... still even that wouldn't drag the European currency down much more than rock-bottom (1$ = 1€).
I doubt it'll set a trend, after witnessing what is going to happen in Greece (in the next months and time to come).
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dont forget the europian meta war dream will end.(but i dont think that this ever existed)
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Nah, euro isn't going to collapse. The Grece might collapse, or might change currency from Euro to something else, but it won't collapse.
The problem is that Greece work least hours a week, and they got a lot of bonuses like "Washing your hands before work - 400 Euros", "Coming to work on time - 600 Euros" and Germany decided that they won't pay for this anymore. The Greece was spending twice as much as it earned for last 10 years or more, so they got a lot of debts, and they just voted if they want to give back the money they loaned or not. They said no, so Prime Minister of Greece gave Germany new offer "If you allow us not to repay all of or debts in exchange will will borrow more money from you."
It looks terrible, but remember that they have 10-11 million citizens, and entire Eurozone got about 330 million citizens. So the crisis is in only about 3% of Eurozone.
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Bonus to buy a pig on christmas, bonus to buy a lamb on easter.
I don't know any other country that gives those kind of bonuses and they can live however.
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There are more of them. I found "Bonus for starting a car engine" for government drivers hilarious. Or "bonus for using fax machine" - it sounds almost like they are paying bonuses to employers for doing their job.
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They actually work more than Germans. Or most of Western Europe. The problem is that their government offices are corrupt and that nobody, not people or companies pay taxes, and the government was too lazy to actually enforce collecting taxes.
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Have you ever seen somebody from Greece at work? I have, more than once. Not to mention that they include lunch, dinner and communication from and to work as work. The work efficiency in Greece is next to non-existent.
And the taxes part is also correct. And other absurd situations, like 70% population of town collecting benefits for the blind people - including the school bus driver.
The problem is that most of this country is defunct.
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"The problem is that Greece work least hours a week [...]"
Seriously, don't spread the lies that your media makes you swallow, or AT LEAST, don't spread lies that you make up yourself.
As for working hours, since you seem to be so aware of Greek/European affairs, you should also be aware of OECD.
But well, OECD disagrees with you.
Here: http://i.imgur.com/XvVBMA2.png you can see the annual working hours of citizens across the world.
You can clearly see, -unless you purposely turn a blind eye- that Greeks are working the most, on Europe since 2006.
About the referendum, "just voted if they want to give back the money they loaned or not.". Complete lie.
The question asked was "Do you agree with the suggestion of the European Commission, ECB and IMF?"
The suggestion was a series of reformations targeting at an annual revenues (for the state) of 8.5 billion euros.
Last but not least, the cause of the debt isn't the one you said "spending twice as much as earned".
I can analyze you the cause of it, if you or someone else wants.
Unless you try to troll or manipulate the readers, you should inform yourself "a bit" better before posting publicly.
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Like it's said. There's lots of self-employment in Greece which means that people work longer (shopkeepers in Poland works most of the time 10h, while people in offices work 8h, so if most of our job market would be based on shopkeepers we would in average work far more than we are right now), plus all turist guides and so on works longer while earning less money.
It's just statistic, you can't compare two different job markets based on one factor. People in Germany works less, because they are able to produce way more valuable items in shorter time than people in Greece.
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First link states exactly what I said, since the source is OECD. About the second link, self employment is still employing and count towards working hours, you can't say "I don't count these hours".
You should also take into account the captions in two of the pictures,
"Greeks take less holiday, sickness leave and maternity leave than Germans" and "Germany's manufacturing sector is highly efficient ".
The second one is the key-point, Germany has heavy industry, they produce cars etc, which they export. Whereas Greece's industry is either touristic, or agricultural, fields that aren't as profitable as Germany's industry.
That's why the "production ratio" is higher in Germany than Greece. Not because the average German Joe is a machine nor because the average Greek Joe is lazy.
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That's exactly what I have said. There are lots of farmers, tourist guides, shopkeepers and so on in Greece so total working time is longer.
I'm not saying that you shoudn't count these hours, just most people here think that "work" means sitting in office, laboratory, production line etc and don't know how anyone could spend 10 - 12 hours in work. Being a farmer "require" a lot more time, because basically you're working from time you wake up to time you go to sleep. And not all these 12 - 14 hours are productive.
Germany has got 80 mln people and 0,57 mln work in agriculture. Greece has got 11 mln people and 0,48 mln works in agriculture. So it's respectively 0,71% and 4.4%. The same dependency could be shown in other jobs, which require lots of time.
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I didn't disagree with you, I just tried to bust the myth that Germans are non-stop machines, whereas Greeks are lazy-ass.
A myth that has gained popularity the last few years.
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Maybe I oversimplified this.
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Work hours. I should have said work efficiency or real work time. I used to work at a company which were opening a new site in Greece. And it was a nightmare. Noone understood that 8 hours a day means that you need to be at the office for 8 hours. Everybody just assumed that it means "I leave home at 8 am, I return home at 4 pm." And it meant real time at work below 6 hours a day - we had a big strike at our Greek department when we refused to agree that entire company was always on time, when sometimes first person arrived at the office at 9 am. We also needed a new website with few extra options. In Greece they told us "minimum 12 months", and that they will have to delegate 10 people to work on this around the clock. In Poland six people team cut this time to 3 months, we paid them 20% of the price which people in Greece were asking - and they had to hire a translator. And note that Poland also have a very sick economy. (many of the self-employed people are working in Poland for not 10 but 12-13 hours, 6 days a week, without vacations, busy all the time, which generates more problem that it solves - compare this to any tourist site in Greece which is closed for about 8 months a year, I was there once in March and I had a big problems to find a open restaurant - I'd bet that on paper someone was working there and collecting all government benefits.)
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What was the suggestion of European Commission, ECB and IMF? Cut down the social expenses, and repay your debts. In exchange we will send you more money to do so. So yes, it is oversimplification the way I put this, but still - it means that Greece is not paying it's debts. And they still want more money from other countries. (And by the way - I often work with people from Germany - they are extremely angry that they have to pay for "washing their hands" and "coming on time to work" benefits in Greece) The problem is that Greece instead of telling what social expenses they are willing to cut down, or how they are willing to fix economy are simply just asking for more money. I mean you can't just spend money which you don't have without consequences, and Greece doesn't have any money left. They have to cut down expenses - and still they have benefits for coming on time to work and washing hands, while next to nobody is paying any taxes. VAT collection rate (not sure if I translated it properly to Engrish) in Greece is below 20%. Greece needs reformations, and their reply is "no, give us more money"
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"spending twice as much as they earned" - look at for example here:
http://www.tradingeconomics.com/greece/gross-national-income-constant-lcu-wb-data.html
Household final consumption expenditure (or in simpler words - how much citizens are spending) is higher than Gross National Income. How the hell will you call it otherwise than spending more than earning? Also note that Household final consumption expenditure doesn't include all government expenses (over 25% of Gross National Income in Greece) all property and stock transactions. In total expenditures in Greece were in 2009 at about 160-180% of their income. (there are different estimates) Rest of the money was from long term loans and from EU. Maybe not exactly twice, but close enough for discussion on a game related forum. It might be smaller gap now, but still this is one of the causes.
I had few very bad professional experiences with people from Greece in 2009 and 2010 which ended in over 30% lay-offs on our end, and a shut down a year later. Their work culture is worse than polish one, not to mention any civilized country. (I live and work in
Poland, and our work culture needs a big kick in the b%##)
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1) It is true that timelines weren't really followed, but that's a problem of public sector. If you couldn't get your employees to work properly, sorry but it's your problem, they are on private sector. The same way it was the state's problem that some of the public employees weren't productive at all. But calling a whole nation as lazy is just plain wrong.
Also you can't complain about how long or how much does a company need in order to complete a certain task. Welcome to capitalism.
You are given option a by company a, do you like it? Take it. You don't like it? You have option b from company b, and so on.
In addition, since wages vary across countries, prices also vary. That's why everything is made in China and not in Greece or USA. Because in China factory workers are getting ridiculous wages.
2) The suggestion was cuts and more cuts. It had some points that were correct, but, only some points.
Regarding bonuses, I can't find any major site to prove the point, but I will go with macedoniaonline for this one.
http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/18542/2/ They clearly state that these bonuses were given before 2011, and to a very specific group of people. So tell your German friends that they live 4 or more years in the past. Therefore, such a statement "and still they have benefits for coming on time to work and washing hands," is clearly misinforming. Tax evasion has been significantly reduced in the last years too. Greece indeed needs reformations, REFORMATIONS, not cuts, cuts don't help, we are watching this theater the last 5 years, cuts after cuts, and only going deeper to the bottomless well of debt.
3) I didn't disagree with you on this one. But it's not the cause of the Greek debt. Greeks lived the illusion of "fat cows" from 1974 to 2010, making them really wasteful, but they aren't the only to blame for this. They were made to believe that they are rich, villagers left their farms to "live the dream" in big cities. Gradually everyone thought they were rich, they couldn't control the change in their lives, from small farms and tough life to high earnings in Athens.
Still, that's not the cause of the Greek debt, it's one of the results of the many factors that caused the Greek debt.
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1) Yes, I know. It was our problem. But we had enormous staff rotation (over 50 people in two years while we needed 10) and only two people were usually on time. I have no idea why 96% of people which were working never realised that the company were ready to pay them for their work and not their charming personality. And that webpage was only one of the examples. But in 99% cases it was much faster to do something in Poland, Germany or China and transport it to Greece than to make it in Greece. It was surprising to find out that it is cheaper and faster to make furniture in Germany and ship it to Greece than to make it in Greece. (it would be even cheaper to make them in Poland, but we had some issues with tax office - it is also a sick country) Hell, back then it was cheaper to buy computer equipment in Germany. And it took us 3 weeks to get internet to our office - Internet Service Provider got some problems with landline and it took them that long to send someone to check it. Also retirement at the age of 53 (for some people, but still) doesn't help in productivity. I used to lead a team of 5 people, and 2 of them were over that age. They were great employees, because they had a lot of experience, and the entire team was working better because of them. There were some problems with the fact that they were older than my parents, and I was their supervisor, but after a while it worked out quite well.
2) If you want source: http://www.wynagrodzenia.pl/artykul.php/wpis.3202 (unfortunately in polish, but based on article from Greek press)
Few examples:
Washing hands: 420 Euro a month
Not getting late: 600 Euro a month
Eating for free at work: 120 Euro a month
Using fax machine: 870 Euro a month
Everything in companies owned in 100% by Greek Government. Te article is a week old by the way.
3) And yes. There are many causes and many people to blame for this. EU for example because they never controlled if the Greece were fulfilling budget restrictions to join Eurozone (they weren't - Government forged rapports) But does it mean that the rest of the Europe should still pay for their dream? Sorry, but it is time to wake up. I'm an IT guy, not economist but I know one thing: There is no free lunch. You can't spend more money than you earn, at least not in a long time.
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1) As I already said, it's free market, if it was cheaper to produce something in Germany, buy it from Germany. Nobody forces you to buy a certain product from Greece. Buy it where it is cheaper, and let Greeks realize that they sell expensive, if they don't reduce their prices, they will not sell anything at all.
Retirement age heavily varies. They are/were people (I don't know if it still happens) that retired at the age of 45 (mostly military personnel). But that's not the rule, it's the exclusion. But, for example teachers have to pass the age of 60 to retire.
Regarding the ISP, what year did it happen, and which was the provider?
2) As I said, basically as macedoniaonline states, "Greek state employees were", were. The article is 4 years old. And of course, not every employee got these bonuses, but a very certain group of people. Still, I doubt the reliability of the site since they published this:
http://macedoniaonline.eu/content/view/27684/46/
Also, I can't read the article from wynagrodzenia, so if you can, give me the name or the article from the Greek press.
3) I answered that one already. Just to say again that EU doesn't pay Greeks. They make profit out of them. Of course the loans don't help the people either.
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I just hope Greece will be kicked from eurozone and EU and they go bankrupt, they deserve the worst. They wont change, all they want is party, protest and spend borrowed money. I don't think we need such member in EU.
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I hope one day you will gather enough wisdom to realize that you were wrong on many levels.
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1) There is no way for a country to be kicked out of the Eurozone and/or EU.
A country can leave Eurozone/EU only if they want it themselves.
2) Are you a country-judge or anything like that? You seem to know what each country deserves, well, of course you judge by your own logic, and not by any international law or something that applies outside your brain.
3) How can you be so sure that a whole nation won't change. Did you travel to the future or what?
4) It's always easy to judge from a safe point of view. And that's exactly what you do.
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It's their own fault. They have wasted the money, they did nothing to make it better. Instead of using money to fix economy and thus to get more money they spent it on insane pensions, increasing minimum salary etc. EU gave them money, more than to other countries, much poorer countries and still they wasted everything. Now is the time when greeks will understand that you need to work, to actually do something to earn the money.
Why i'm so sure? I see how greeks are celebrating. What's there to celebrate? Do they even think? They need to spend less, they need to understand this but they refuse to do this.
Yes there was other side of people who voted differently, at least they have brains, but they're minority.
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First of all, minimum salary is decreasing the last years whereas unemployment is increasing. Secondly, EU didn't give a single penny, EU isn't a humanitarian organization, it's a capitalistic union. They lend money that will take back with interests. That way you don't help.
Why? Because giving someone a x amount of money, and asking them to give you back x+ isn't helpful, it's just a vicious circle.
The voters you are talking about, the voters of yes/nai, are the voters of PASOK and New Democracy (and some other minor parties), the only two political parties that had ruled the country till 2015. Their "smart" selection didn't seem to aid the country the last 40 years.
Last but not least, Greek debt per GDP was 130% on 2010 and it's now 177%. Voters of "yes" found the last 5 years helpful for the Greek economy that they tried to expand them by accepting more more reformations, reformations that have proven to be unsuccessful by IMF itself. http://www.theguardian.com/business/2013/jun/05/imf-underestimated-damage-austerity-would-do-to-greece
Also, you should keep in mind that "yes" voters were mostly rich people, people who stayed untouched after 5 years of austerity.
How can I know? http://prntscr.com/7pg3wp
Ekali is one of the wealthiest areas of Athens.
So you can't really call brainless the voters of "no".
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All this happened AFTER greeks wasted the money. I'm talking about the times when Greece joined the eurozone and started to spend waaay more than they should. And it backlashed finally, and when it happened they refused to take responsibility.
EU gives plenty of money. Yes you need to pay the loans back, but there's other payments which you don't need to pay back.
Our country is much poorer than Greece and somehow we survived the crisis having the same prices as Greece (i guess) or Germany, but pensions being 150-250€ and they were CUT, minimum monthly salary 230€, average being 500€. That's what i call a poor country, but Greece has plenty of options to lower their spending.
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According to this: http://prntscr.com/7ph59x Lithuania's debt per GDP is rising, same as Greece's, that's why austerity is a failed plan. Because cuts never really helped anyone besides the one who is lending money. See Germany: http://prntscr.com/7ph7hd
Although their debt rose on 2010 when the financial crisis broke out, it's now falling. That's why borrowing money over and over again, making cuts and applying more taxes isn't helpful.
By the way you shouldn't try to lower the other country, but to raise yours. That's how you advance.
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I'm not trying to lower any country, i'm just saying what i think, i'm sorry if i offended you in some way. Lithuania's situation is much worse, it exists as a country only for 25 years, soviets destroyed everything, so without borrowing money we couldn't exist. Besides we don't have tourism, we almost have no export and everything else just sucks here and still the economy is rising somehow. I just can't understand how Greece even managed to collapse?
Better show me numbers since Greece joined the eurozone, how salaries and pensions have grown. Also Greece has huge gray economy numbers and this one is purely people's fault.
Also i would like an example how to manage a country without borrowing the money while living by capitalist rules. It's how capitalism works, you can say it's bad i'm not going to argue about that, i too think it's not how things should be, but there's no better system than capitalism yet. If you don't want to live by these rules why join the EU and eurozone? Spend everyone's money and then refuse to pay back.
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Greece managed to collapse after a series of scandals and political mistakes.
When Greece joined the Eurozone salaries and pensions rose. But rose on a faulty way. For instance, if the average salary was x with drachmes, and the water cost y, after adapting the euro, salary rose to e.g. 10x but water instead of rising to 10y, rose to 15y.
After the initial rise in salaries and pensions, they are just getting lower year by year.
Grey economy is/was indeed a huge problem, but it's not entirely people's fault, they weren't checked after all, businesses knew that they could circumvent VAT and not have any consequence by the state. Individuals knew that with a bribe on the taxman, they could avoid paying taxes or pay less. Of course that's not what all of the people did, but what was done on a large scale by some specific people.
You can manage a country without loans, you just need exports and a strong currency, both can be achieved, not easily or with a magic spell, but they are possible. As I have already said, Greeks said no to the cuts suggested by E.C. IMF and ECB. They didn't refuse to pay anything, they refused the reformations which they were given.
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Anyone who addresses Greek people in general is wrong - one can't lump casual citizens together with politics.
European-Council itself is to blame for taking Greece into its ranks without verifying/checking properly, while
the Greek government/politics falsified a shit-ton of records to get in, in the first place (which got known by 2004).
This enabled Greek-finances to take more debt than they could handle.
debt:
before 2004 - ??% (+ how reliable is that anyway?)
2006 - 100%
2010 - 130%
^ If 2006 to 2010 is not a cata-fucking-strophic preview of what it is right now,
i don't know what is ... what i also don't get what of those statistics before 2004 is to be trusted in the first place.
Greece should never have joined the Europe in the first place - Greek politics fucked this up for good.
(I'm not even addressing the current debt and how that was "going to be" paid back - just to get my unprofessional
opinion straight, the "NO" was the right decision, which by no means changes anything about the dire eco./fin. situation.)
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Kudos over there!
Not joining Eurozone would be the best.
Also not hosting the Olympics of 2004 and much more.
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Greece lived very over their real possibilities with money that didn't belong to them, and now they are hitting hard euro because they are asked to live within their economic possibilities, like every country in the world.
Euro might lose some value but it will never go down because despite the economic crysis Europe is strong.
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You do know it's "crisis", right? Jesus...pop-culture has polluted your mind...and grammar. I really do hope you don't start saying "genisys" instead of the correct form, "genesis".
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I'm not native speaking and I have no interest in getting better since people understands me. You understood crysis=crisis? Then no need for polemics
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Yes, course I did. That's not the point. Point was that you thought it was written like that because of a fucking game misspelling it, them thinking it was cool to highlight their engine in the game's title...which is STUPID. Just like the title of the new aforementioned Arnold Schwartzeneger movie. Also...you're completely WRONG. I'm not a native speaker of English either? So? When you learn a language, you have to learn it PROPER.
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Why do you think that I am learning English, or that I have interest in speaking correctly?
My error is the same as dime/dyme that any non-native could write wrong. I don't see the point of this discussion.
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It depends if you're talking about savings.
The worst thing you can do is exchange for Dollars, at least in the long run. The Dollar forecast is in bad shape.
Gold, silver and crypto will give you the best intrinsic security both for short term and long term holdings.
Just look at China and Russia they are buying up all the gold and silver expecting a dramatic paper money crash any time soon.
The only time you own any wealth is when it is intrinsic, numbers in your bank account wont mean shit if there is a complete economic crash.
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Aye, and whenever possible, buy land. There's a reason that rich folks from Asia and the Middle East are buying properties in the US and Europe. Land is a tangible commodity, and tends to be a safe long term investment.
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Land is good and I suppose could be used to barter with the right person in times of need.
There are so many negative comments towards Greece and it people. People commenting here have no deep understanding of Geopolitics and how corporate agendas have placed Greece in this position.
The EU and it's structure along with the TPP (TransPacificPartnership) systematically destroys sovereign nations for corporate profit but nobody here has an opinion on that because they lack the understanding to do so. Instead they believe it's a simple situation of give and take.
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"All Greeks deserve the worst". Talking from a safe point of view....
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The euro already lost value due to recent events. If greece stays bitchy and the other countries keep giving money to support them... Yes, probably.
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No one wants to give money to support them anymore. EVERYONE is fed up with their ass-hole attitude. If they don't accept the conditions imposed to them, they won't be receiving any loan anytime soon. That premier of theirs is a fucking cretin who just doesn't understand that.
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The public didn't give a shit way before but Angela Merkel (german empress) was like "No, let's give them another batch of free currency!"
It took the governments of the EU states a long time to realize that it's pointless.
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I am NOT Greek but i totally disagree with you. A nation with 20% of population under the poverty level, 60% unemployment on ages 18-30 cannot simply survive with the taxes the EU's Commission wants. Greece is not bitchy, EU and Schaeuble are.
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Is that why you deleted me and removed your comment from my profile?
Oh and blacklisted as well. :D
Sorry, but the demands greece is asking for are bitchy considering that the EU wanted to help Greece in the first place.
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i removed you cause you sound like someone who is drinking Snaps and reads Bild.
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I'm surprised they weren't already on your list. They've been on a roll lately.
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seriously. lol, a Bild reader says i am the bigot
LOL that internet :D
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Yes, Greece is bitchy. They can survive perfectly, they just want to keep living above their possibilities with EU/IMF money while not implementing any reforms. Of course it'll be worse than before, but there's a lot you can cut on in Greece, such as their unnecessarily high defense budget, their bonuses for stupid stuff such as showing up to work on time...
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Turkey's public debt to GDP: 35.5% (and decreasing)
Greece's public debt to GDP: 177% (and increasing)
Are you really comparing them?
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really? and you have an opinion on the subject? really?
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So that's how you react when you figure you're making zero sense? Okay...
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Sheep mind ?
Turkey threatens Greece, Armenia, my country, Georgia and Syria 24/7 with war. Turkish aircrafts fly over the Aegean, over my country's borders, over Armenian borders, over Syrian borders every day. Everyone knows in the army of my country that if for just one day we do not do as Turkey wants, we will be invaded by them. Turkey's Generals are publicly saying that they want to invade first in Greece, then in Syria
Are these all new to you? You think only Greece pays a fortune to army and the rest countries who have land borders with Turkey do not? In what planet have you grown up?
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Nonsense, Greece and Turkey are allies, both NATO members.
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And you blacklisted me just because I don't agree with you?
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as soon as you like to talk about things you have no clue about, i like to populate my BL list. problem?
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Could you be more nice when you talk with other people? Seriously.
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Pardon me, you have a point. You didnt call me a bigot and i was impolite to you. Accept my apologies.
(However, i still support that living in Portugal does not let you know what trully happens between other countries thousands of kilometres away. Just to give you a hint of what Erdogan is doing: 2 weeks ago, 72 Turkish ships reached a distance of 150 km from the capital of Greece and just 6 days ago 15 Turkish aircrafts flew 5 km away from the shores of my country.)
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I am not saying that we don't need to keep an eye on Turkey, pretty much the opposite. 100 years ago they were the Ottoman Empire. However, I believe in diplomacy over military action. And I hope the European Union doesn't desintegrate.
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That's quite an overstatement, Greece definitely doesn't have good relations with Turkey, but they aren't being being threatended with war 24/7. Greece doesn't need to spend 2.2+% of its GDP in defense. Turkey won't do anything as they're both members of NATO, while the remaining countries you listed are not.
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if you dont live in a country which has borders with Turkey, do not talk about things you absolutely no clue about.
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How can you be so sure?
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sledgehammer_%28coup_plan%29
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Imia/Kardak
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I'm aware of relations between Greece and Turkey, and know those don't justify any action by Turkey, which happens to be a part of NATO and is interested in joining EU. The relations between those countries have improved recently, hence my opinion that his statement is exaggerated.
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I know that war is highly unlikely to happen but under these circumstances I think a little higher than average military budget is justified.
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Yeah that's what happens when you're lazy and want to live with borrowed money which you're not going to give back.
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wait, how is the EU bitchy? they didn't cause the problems, but they are helping now
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i've lived for 10 years in Greece, half of them into the crisis they face and the situation there is really bad anyone who is not a public employee or a tax-evader. 20% of the population is below the poverty level according the EU numbers. Imagine how bigger that number would become if they accepted Juncker's proposal of the 10 billions of finance measures.
They are not helping, they are stealing a whole country!
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Oh yeah, let's help the poor Greeks, it's not their fault they're in this situation...
They're just innocent victims of circumstance and we should totally be lenient towards them, because money grows on trees and we have a lot of it. Grow a fucking pair... They should assume their responsability: an external debt of 176%. Romania had less than a third of that and still issued austerity measures. So they're the only cunts around here. Who the hell has the kind of money to indulge this and not get it back so you can keep their luxurious life-styles? You know what? I'm glad the banks don't let them take out more than 50 EURO a day. They fucking deserve it. You should see how that's like. it's easy to talk when not in the middle of the problem, right?
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Don't try to talk reason into any Greece supporter. They'll just throw feces and vague counter arguments at you while carrying on. It's been like that for years and nobody ever had the 'pair' to slap them and show them in which dream state of reality they really exist. I'm actually a fan of the EU and stuff, but the shit that goes on with Greece and their government clearly shows that it doesn't work. Other countries are held ransom for a fuc*ed up political situation in one of the members, This is just happening because politicians like to put the idea of the EU and the EUR above any logical and economical sense.
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I'm not a fascist, I'm just not a left-wing imbecile like so many of the lame-brains that support the ass-hole Greeks that I've encountered on this thread. If being right-wing makes me a fascist then I can call you guy communists, right?
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I said it was a bad idea when it was first announced, so glad that England didn't join. Everyone's individual currencies where so much stronger
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Your currency might be stronger, but most stuff u guys import is more expensive to you. Judging on the price of alcohol, games & cigarettes over there :3
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Lies. The reason alcohol and cigarettes are priced so high is because they are highly taxed in our country.
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Also, those who are saying blah blah blah Greece are horrible etc, newsflash, everyone is in debt and spends above their means, its the way of capitalism. There is less currency in circulation than there is debt, its built in a way for the banks to profit.
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That's a fantastic point of view. Greece's public debt (177% GDP) and China's public debt (22% GDP) are obviously equally horrible and a 22% debt is by no means sustainable.
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"everyone is in debt and spends above their means, its the way of capitalism" - it's neocapitalism (mix between capitalism and socialism - i mean taking worst things from both of them). Capitalism means -> work hard and be richer with each year.
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I agree. People see Capitalism as the cause when in reality Free Market Capitalism was hijacked by socialist extremists over 30 years ago thus leaving us with crony Capitalism that empowers the corporate agenda.
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We are in a capitalist society, not an idealist one. It's a flawed concept clearly as it can't be trusted to run the global economy. Big companies get bigger, banks get richer then bailed out by governments because they are so intrinsic to the system.
Every other system in the history of mankind when it hasn't been working has been changed, except money. As soon as someone mentions radical changes to the monetary system or perhaps scrapping it all together people lose their mindbrains.
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Yeah, right... please enlighten us with your economical insights OP. Please tell us what my attached image here means. (source: oanda.com, but I guess any exchange rate site would be fine to spot some kid spewing uninformed populism).
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screw the EU and their soft currency €, i want my Deutsche Mark back.
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And what about your Rubles, Outlasted, are they Ok? I think it's time to exchange your euro-savings (if any) to your native currency... Before it will be too late!
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facepalm
Go and look and the Dollar-Euro charts since the introduction of the Euro as physical currency.
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Well if the price of Euros drops, I won't complain. Might be a good time to charge our Steam wallets :)
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