What do you think, in which directions do the arrows have to go?
Two people are disagreeing with you according to the poll.
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Two people are disagreeing with you according to the poll.
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Well, the thing is that now that I'm asking, people seem to think about it and read below what others have said, seize on arguments for one (or rather) another and vote that - instead of going by initial feeling. You know, even if this poll is anonymous, people don't want to appear 'dumb' and vote for the most correct option. ...of course that's me guessing.
The way I meant this though is if one opens up a software for the first time and just sees icons, what is it that comes to mind with an up-/down-arrow. (I edited the original post asking people for spontaneous replies hoping for a more unadulterated vote.)
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In what Google page is that the case?
I'm not trolling, I don't understand at all how importing would be down and exporting would be up, at least when you're talking about a web app. Software can have a different concept.
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That's exactly my perspective. Although the script does not have a server. But the script is a web app, so when you import data, you are prompted to select a file from your computer to upload it, and when you export data, a file is downloaded to your computer. That's why the other way around seems very crazy for me in this particular case.
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The script is running locally though. So, would this still comply as "web-app"? To me it kinda doesn't.
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But the script uses the browser as a bridge. When you click the button to export data to your computer a file is literally downloaded by the browser, so assuming that that is an upload feels rather strange for me.
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To me it's the interface I'm looking at right now. Data goes from here to somewhere else when I export and therefore upload it and data comes from somewhere else to where I'm looking at right now when importing. So I don't differentiate if it's software running locally as an extension/add-on to the browser or on my desktop - opposed to something that's running on the internet (like google drive) that only get displayed on my screen.
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That's why I said in this particular case. If you're talking about, for example, a software on your computer that has an import function which retrieves data from the web and imports it into the software, that would definitely be a download.
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actually google has both variants for both functions.
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That's odd - maybe it's a regional thing!
https://imgur.com/a/JgzDE
Edit: OK - one anomaly for Import - one shows a right arrow. Must be Eiion's friend ;)
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Agree with canis39 on this one. As long as the instructions on using the script is clear, it doesn't make that much difference anyway.
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Usually it is an arrow going to a paper or whatever for import and an arrow leaving for export. Doesn't matter in which direction the arrow goes, all that matters is that it goes to or from the icon part representing the data destination 😉
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It's his script so he's obviously right. Dealer's choice.
But probably a better argument it's just way more intuitive that way.
So in my opinion Import and Export are using the correct icons in ESGST.
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I'm confused as hell, so not sure that I'm right. :P
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Yes, we are. Rafael and I were discussing the issue and I felt like completely mind fucked when I heard his explanation - so we thought we might just have a poll. I didn't mention ESGST in the original post since I wanted to avoid people to look at it and simply go with how it's done there instead of voting for how they know it.
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It's obviously a matter of perspective (if you're looking at it from your computer or from the website) but to be honest your way of looking at it confuses me quite a bit. There's also a fundamental flaw in your argumentation as far as I can see:
"Import -> Get the data -> Download it -> Arrow down"
"Export -> Send the data -> Upload it -> Arrow up"
So if you're exporting data from anywhere you are creating a file with the backup on your computer. So why would it be upload when you're literally downloading something ?
It's interesting to see both viewpoints are equally represented here. Is this going to be another black and blue dress situation ? :D
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Well, the question as you pot it... you're uploading/exporting it from where you are now (the script) - up up and away - to somewhere else (the PC, the cloud, or even into another software).
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I think his question is how can you call it an upload when a file is literally downloaded by the browser?
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Yeah, that's what I ment with fundamental flaw in his argumentation. I can see the other interpretation now like in my digicam example below but I still find yours much more intuitive.
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Ok, now I kind of get your interpretation but for me Download and Upload have always been objective terms but when I think about it with the example of a digital camera I'm starting to see both viewpoints.
Yesterday I downloaded the pictures from our vaccation to my computer.
Have you uploaded the pictures yet so I can have my camera back ?
But on the internet when there is only one device involved using your computer as the point of view still seems much more intuitive to me.
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Well, you made no hidden giveaway, so obviously your friend is right.
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Your poll is problematic. The problem isn't the relation between import/export and the arrows, but what import and export mean. He thinks import means 'send the data', while you think that import means 'get the data'.
I think that the easiest solution would be to use 'upload' and 'download' instead of 'import' and 'export'. That would be clearer because you both agree on the meaning.
What is correct with regards to 'import' and 'export' depends on context. Export and import typically mean 'convert data from one format to another', with 'import' meaning convert it to your software's format and 'export' meaning convert to a format that other software will find readable. This has nothing to do with upload or download.
In a context where you're, for example, uploading a data file to incorporate into an online database, the operation is an upload on the user's machine side, and an import on the database side (as it converts it from a file to data in the database; no conversion is done on the user's side, so there is no export there), so it would be technically correct to say it's an upload and import. However, these are two distinct operations, and the UI should IMO reflect the upload, not the import.
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Interesting... That could be a nice way to solve this.
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Although... I think "Upload" and "Download" would actually be more problematic, because the script does not only export to the computer, but also to the cloud, so "downloading" to the cloud would be a weird way to put it, while "exporting" to the cloud sounds right.
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The script can only upload to the cloud. I don't see how where the problem is. Upload is from a local PC to a server and download is from a server to the current PC.
Unfortunately the OP has failed to describe what the script actually does, except by using 'export', which is probably misused in this case.
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I'm saying that you said a solution would be to replace "Export" with "Download", but that wouldn't work well because the export option also exports to the cloud, so that would be more confusing. I think "Backup" and "Restore" would work better.
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I hardly know what 'export' does in the script. You seems to have more information than I do. If it's indeed an 'export' option (i.e., write data in a new format, and the target can be either a local machine or a remote one), then it's fine to call it that. I really can't judge it any better without knowing what the script does. I might have missed that info, but the original post doesn't say.
If it's indeed 'export', it's possible to create an icon that doesn't look exactly like 'upload'.
In any case, all I said (a few times already) is that the words 'export' and 'import' carry different meanings than 'upload' and 'download' and that the original post tied them together for no good reason. If Eiion posted more information anywhere (which I missed), it might allow me to say something less general than that. Without it I can only speculate, but it's entirely possible that my guesses are wrong.
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No, we disagree on the meaning. To him upload means import and download means export, right? To me though import is download (data goes from somewhere else to the UI I'm currently looking at) while export is upload (from where I'm at to somewhere else).
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That's pretty much what I said, and what I also said is that 'export' and 'import' have different meanings than 'upload' and 'download' and therefore the entire argument about whether 'export' means 'upload' or vice versa is misguided. Most likely, the use of 'export' and 'import' should simply be replaced with 'upload' and 'download', but without you providing more details about what's actually done it's impossible for me to judge how the operation should be called. I gave the guidelines in my previous post: upload/download are network transfer operations, import/export are data conversion operations. If all you're doing is transferring data (or internally exporting and then importing at the target, without the user being aware of it), then these are simply upload/download operations.
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From a programm use perspective for me it is intuitive as he says.
Import (as in import the Data to the Programm, which can be seen as upload to the Programm is arrow up).
and
Export (as in export the Data to an outside source can be seen as download from the Programm is arrow down).
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Icons are usually at the top of the app, right? I think that's more relevant than "upload"/"download" terminology. Down points toward the frame you will be working in, that implies importing data into the app.
At any rate, the icon could easily add the needed context with the addition of a simple rectangle. Arrows should point into or out of the rectangle. Solved.
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Your logic is corrupted I guess :-P
I wouldn't disagree with your boxes, I just only listed his opinion and worked with that for mine in this specific case.
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According to a quick Google image search of import icon and export icon, export tends to be to the right and/or up and import tends to be to the left and/or down (though it's less definitive here).
But there's enough confusion that perhaps there should be a label-- if possible-- and there should definitely be a tooltip.
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To play a bit of devils advocate here: Would you also say you are downloading a video to YouTube ? Since YouTube is obviously the website you are currently using when "uploading" a video.
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As I've explained somewhere below where I mentioned google drive - I consider this uploading since Youtube isn't running on my machine. It's just displayed on my screen but runs on google's servers. Hence 'upload' videos to youtube.
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Yes, I'd prefer these as well but apparently these are not an option.
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I think that most people seem to agree that up arrow for upload and down arrow for download is intuitive.
The question becomes a matter of perspective: is the import/export action (and therefore the upload/download) happening from the user's perspective or from the script's perspective?
Icons in programs are almost always from the user's perspective. Print this thing. Save this file. Send this to email.
So, I am inclined to say that "export" should be interpreted as "I, the user, would like to download my settings data from the script" and "import" should be interpreted as "I, the user, would like to upload my settings data to the script". So, export down arrow, import up arrow. :)
But I can see how it could make sense or be confusing either way.
My suggestion would be to change the terminology to "backup" and "restore" which I think would be more clear to people. And probably don't use arrow icons. :P
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I'd agree with the latter. Not with what you're inclined to say: For your analogy to work, where you send/upload e.g. a document from Word to a printer, you'd have to send/upload the data from the script to your storage/cloud to back it up and you import/download data from somewhere else into your script.
To me it's important to look at where the command comes from and here it comes from within the script (to download/import data), not from the storage (to "import/upload" it into the script - where the wording import makes my guts turn upside down, we agree on that being bad wording). And for the prefix "im-" in import to be correct it has to be viewed from inside the script.
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Download = down, upload = up.
BUT.
This is not about uploading or downloading - This is only something that is necessary while doing your actual task; Importing and exporting.
In most software, when you import, you send it up from your computer's folders (etc) and to your software, while exporting is sending it outside the software and into your computer's folders. By that logic, import should be "up" (in) and export should be "down" (out). The only thing wrong with my logic, is that it does not work very well when put into use on a browser userscript.
The issue is that a browser isn't exactly a software - when you import and export something, you definitely upload or download something. In other words, you are technically correct. On the other hand, your friend is also thinking logically as his solution is comprehensive when you consider what I've written in the previous paragraph - Neither of you are exactly wrong. Or perhaps you're both wrong. Best solution would be to opt for an entirely new approach then the up/down arrows.
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The more replies I'm reading the more I come to the realization that it's a lot about how technically one gets. But how is it for the average end-user, for intuitive use?
While in detail for this very specific case (his script) my friend might actually be technically right. But these are thoughts the normal user wouldn't have, would he? Wouldn't the normal user just say: I'm right here right now, I'm downloading stuff into here when I'm importing something and I'm uploading things to somewhere else when I'm exporting them, all without thinking about very technical details like uploading from a PC into a software (instead of simply importing into my software by downloading it from the storage). The viewing point is what makes the difference.
Actually I could even argue that uploading data (a backup) from a storage somewhere to import it into a software is wrong wording if the command to import comes from the software. Now, say you're using software A and give the command to upload data from storage into software B, 'uploading' would make sense, but since that isn't what happening (instead you're importing from into software A by giving the command to import from software A and therefore download the data into the software A),... you get my point.
In my point of view for the user it's not about what technically happens but looking at it from his current point of view, which is the UI of the software he's currently controlling and asking it to import or export data.
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Well, like I said, if we're to simplifying the entire thing - both solution are wrong.
If we would want a very comprehensive result, the solution is a simple import/export button, no arrows - that way, there simply is no way to confuse one for the other. I have no idea what is the exact use of the script, but if I were to use something like that, the way he set it up makes much sense to me (from a user's perspective) in any case. But according to the poll, I am in the minority - Perhaps I'm wrong to think so.
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If you are talking about ESGST, you are importing data into the script and exporting data from the script. The current icons in the script are fine.
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Here, have some cookies. I've already taken a bite - I hope you don't mind :-)
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For me it always was:
"Import -> Get the data -> Download it -> Arrow down"
"Export -> Send the data -> Upload it -> Arrow up"
I'd say it was you who has it backwards here. If you're importing data you're uploading it from your system to another and if you're exporting you're downloading it from the other sytem for use on your own.
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Nah, that's not what import and export means. It's the opposite. Think of importing and exporting goods to and from foreign countries: If you import goods then you bring them from somewhere else into your country. If you export goods, you bring them outside your country to somewhere else. Going by your explanation it was the other way around.
So "if you're exporting you're" not "downloading it from the other sytem for use on your own" but you upload it to the other system from yours. E.g. in a local network you would export your data by uploading it onto the hard drive of another computer on that network and you would import data from that other computer's hard drive onto yours by downloading it.
What some are arguing is, if you look on the lower level of things, that you import data from an app by uploading it from the hard drive - while the problem I am having with this (the reason why he thinks the way he does and I disagree) is that they aren't pushing/uploading from the drive rather than they pull/download the data from within the app.
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Nah, that's not what import and export means. It's the opposite.
In any other case that would be true but here the roles are reversed. You import data from your drive to the script - think of the up(load) arrow as being sending the data away. You export data from the script to your drive - think of the down(load) arrow as directing the data back from the script towards you.
Incoming data is a download, outgoing data is an upload.
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Now you just said what I said. Before you said "If you're importing data you're uploading it" and the other way around for exporting, contradicting the "incoming data is a download, outgoing data is an upload". Or are you just trolling? In that case, good one.
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That's just you applying your original interpretation as to how the terms should be used.
Incoming data is a download (export), outgoing data is an upload (import).
Import/export are labelled from the view of the script whilst download/upload are labeled from the view of the user.
The script exports data which the user downloads (incoming) and the user uploads data which is imported into the script (outgoing). The problem comes from you trying to apply upload/download and import/export equally to both the user and the script side of the equation.
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Scientific response, as asked by fellow friend - both ways are correct, depending what is considered a target.
Is target the database? Then uploading to database (import) should be up, downloading from database (export) should be down.
Are you a target as an user of the database? Then import should be down, and export should be up.
He's got a script
I assume this is some kind of userscript or tool then, in this case you're the user, so second case is correct. However, both ways are correct in limited circumstances - it'd be best if instead of using arrows (which are ambiguous at best, misleading and confusing at worst), he used small pictograms which would identify import and export operations accordingly: 1 | 2 (or anything else, really). This is what I'd vouch for, if I was in charge of the script you mentioned. There is no need for any ambiguity if it's entirely possible to avoid at low to no cost. Using arrows for uploading/downloading files is OK since it's well-spreaded and accepted pictogram by now, but import/export should have its own. Trying to give already-used pictograms a new responsibility is equally bad to reusing variables that no longer point to what they're supposed to. Yes, people can get used to it, and they will eventually, but all new people will need to go through the same process and overall the efficiency is as worst as it can get.
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Exactly, it's a tool which the user utilizes.
Unfortunately both these icons are not available to him.
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The reason is that the script uses Font Awesome icons, since they are used on SG, so that makes it easier for me and also keeps everything standardized. So I am limited to using Font Awesome icons from v4.6.1, which is the one used by cg. But sign-in is quite similar to the icons you posted, so I could use it with some rotation.
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https://fontawesome.com/icons/sign-in?style=regular + 180 rotated version for other button, not so hard :3.
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it depends
exporting from a website = downloading
exporting from your PC = uploading
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My feeling is it should be from the users perspective.
Are they pulling data towards them (down arrow) or uploading it (up arrow)?
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Your both wrong but his arrows are correct. Import or export is from the point of view of the program. What your doing is from your point of view. This is the only way......
"Import -> Get the data -> Upload it -> Arrow up"
"Export -> Send the data -> Download it -> Arrow down"
I would use words not arrows.
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I'm having a discussion with a friend: He's got a script in which you need to click a 'up arrow' to import and a 'down arrow' to export - which is very confusing to me ever since I'm using his script.
So today I finally asked him if this was just an accidental mix-up of icons or what's going on since I only know it the other way around for the last 25 years since I'm using PCs.
In short his reply was:
"Import -> Send the data -> Upload it -> Arrow up"
"Export -> Get the data -> Download it -> Arrow down"
which is completely mind bending to me.
For me it always was:
"Import -> Get the data -> Download it -> Arrow down"
"Export -> Send the data -> Upload it -> Arrow up"
So, what do you think who's right? Try not to think about it too much and just vote intuitively what would come to mind if you would see one or the other arrow in a software that you've just opened up for the first time.
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