HB doesn't give you the option to buy individual game keys as gifts, it gives you the option to buy complete bundles as gifts. So by your definition, splitting bundles is piracy as well because all the keys included in the bundle must be activated by the same person
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yup, cause you're giving away keys assigned to the SAME license. If I go to the DVD+backup digital store and buy a DVD licenced only to me, then just keep watching digital copy and sell/give away DVD copy - I'm still a pirate. If a licence gives you multiple mediums to own a copy but state that they're all for your personal use, yet you split it between different people - you are a pirate. simple as that.
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Just because some of the licenses included in the bundle happen to be for the same game, doesn't mean it's more or less wrong to give individual licenses from the bundle to other people. All the licenses in any Humble Bundle are equivalent; giving any of them away separate from the bundle is equally bad.
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Because Valve and EA are two different companies, who have offered keys for the games. In the eyes of each company, they have volunteered a copy of the game. To the bundle purchaser, they essentially have two copies of the game. If you spoke to a representative of Valve and said "That guy just gave away his Origin key, will you ban him from Steam for piracy?", I'm pretty sure they would tell you that what a user does with their property that doesn't involve steam is entirely their own business.
Money also changed hands to recompense developers in a previously agreed manner, and as experienced business entities that deal in online distribution I am sure they are aware of the implications of both offering keys to their services. In fact, I'm pretty sure Origin allows you use apply some of your steam-bought keys to their client, dependant on which product was bought. I discovered that while trawling through their help pages lately.
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Edit: In case you don't want to click on it, here's the best quote. "Softlifting is the most common type of software piracy within the enterprise." (Emphasis added by me)
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"The unauthorized use or reproduction of copyrighted or patented material"
You must be mind-blowingly ignorant if you really think you have a valid argument that this isn't piracy. Also, I don't give a fuck what you think about my language.
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Not really. Thinking that profanity is the same thing as hostility is a false equivocation. I use profanity because I like it. I especially like using it when someone doesn't 'appreciate' it. It makes me feel like I'm talking to a bloodless, prudish old lady, getting offended at a few four-letter words. ^_^
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The reason keys are given to register/redeem games is to PREVENT redistribution, because the same key cannot be used twice. Owning more than one key effectively means you own two different versions of the same game, both of which are your own property. The bundle does not underline any stance on the keys having to be redeemed by the same person, and if I am not mistaken, neither does this site.
If you got a direct link to an executable instead of a key for personal registry, and shared that to other people instead? Yes, that would be piracy. This however, is not. Unless of course you had to agree to a terms of service stating that you are to be the only recipient, which is a common practice if the vendor finds it to be an issue.
Again, the Humble crew, EA and Valve are not newbies in the realm of online distribution. EA are particularly vice-like on their regulations and agreements, and allowed this to pass. As it currently stands, calling this 'piracy' or 'immoral' is simply trying to assert your personal views over others.
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What people are doing is called softlifting and is definitely piracy. Trying to argue it's not is simply someone trying to justify their actions after the fact.
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Except that there was no licensing agreement for the codes to be used only by the purchaser, otherwise using them on this site in any form would also be be against the agreement. Another critical flaw in your argument is that this does not generate extra copies, as each purchase is assigned only two separate, unique keys by separate companies that cannot be re-used.
I do not appreciate your borderline ad hominem either.
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Except everything you said is completely wrong. First off, there absolutely is a licensing agreement - in the FAQ it says that 'distributing, transmitting, or copying...' is against the rules and law. Second off, Softlifting does not need to 'generate' extra copies. Third off, the 'personal use only' disclaimer means that you have 1 license for all keys. You're sharing this among multiple people. Again, there is absolutely no ground to say this is anything other than piracy. You can argue whether it's right or wrong all you want, and that's a whole other debate, but this is undeniably piracy. It's literally a textbook definition of softlifting, which is a form of piracy. You have 1 license, yet three people are playing on it. There is no possible way to argue it's anything other than piracy.
And I'm glad you're trying to bring light to my ad hominem and trying to bring up a completely different issue in the same breath. This argument isn't about if giving the keys away on Steamgifts without using them yourself is against the ToS. That has nothing to do with this argument.
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"the 'personal use only' disclaimer means that you have 1 license for all keys"
Hmm. I'm going to have to ask for citation on this one, because it depends entirely on the set-up that is going on. Some bundles/vendors/etc do work like this, but not all of them. This is EA and Valve we are talking about, seperate companies. It is entirely possible for two licenses to be offered, even if intended for a single person. Without an explicit agreement, those two licenses would be legally separable.
Also, the issue is whatever we make it. This is a conversation, no single person directs the only focus. The opening tangent was of morals, and if the criticism is "it is immoral to do this, because it is against the small-print", only for the user to be participating in a site which organises and executes those very same breaches of agreement but on a mass scale, that would be entirely hypocritical and reveal a vital, critical flaw in the subject. Hypocrisy has EVERYTHING to do with the subject, when it is about judging people for their behaviour.
Also, law may be absolute, but it is not cast in iron. If you forgot to click 'this is a gift' button while purchasing a bundle for someone else, but then copy-pasted the bundle link to someone else and then never touched it again, you would still be guilty of 'distribution' in the eyes of the law, but you would find that none of the involved companies would perceive this as piracy.
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And now you're just trying to slip through loopholes. I'm glad that you're so quick to throw up the ad hominem shield, but in that argument alone, you used ad ignorantiam (that whole first paragraph is essentially 'they haven't said it's against the rules, so it's not'), ad verecundiam (Steamgifts allows it on the main site, so it's not against the rules), and ad logicam (Which is what that last paragraph is trying to do by giving one example where it might be okay that has literally nothing to do with what's being argued now.) Please try and give at least one argument not based entirely on a fallacy.
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Please try and give at least one post that isn't being deliberately passive-aggressive. I'm rapidly getting tired of trying to have a conversation with you based on facts and not insinuations upon the other poster. It's not a shield, it's the fact that you're being childish where there is no cause.
I did not make an appeal to ignorance. Terms must be agreed to before they go into effect. If I cannot recall having signed an agreement, then it is just as likely that no formal agreement to obide by those terms was made. Just as likely as simply having forgotten. If I am in error, kindly correct me and I will either concede the point or adjust it based on what I am presented with, instead of deliberately trying to rub sand where it doesn't need to be. Oh wait, I'm not allowed to remark on your needlessly aggravating behaviour, because that would mean I'm using a 'shield'. Or, y'know, maybe it means I'm simply observing that you're making this hostile where it doesn't need to be. But I'm about done with tolerating your foul attitude so what the hell, wind up and let another "pointing out my ad hominem is also ad hominem buh buh buh its a shield buh buh buh"
Where exactly did I suggest that it's not illegal if steamgifts does it? I don't hold that opinion, so it would be strange if I professed to it. Are you sure you're not misinterpreting what I said?
Again, conversation is not a static thing. It opened with the subject being of both a moral and legal context. I am following both sides of it, and trying not to get lost on spock-like hang-ups and offer what I feel is a grounded point of view. The fact you consistently resort to making petty jabs is only making me believe I'm being trolled, here. If I don't get a good-faith gesture or a shift in tone to something more mature I'm just going to give you up as deliberately baiting. And yes, I fully expect the old chestnut of "Yeah I win, run away, obviously you're not very smart", or some permutation of that statement. I hope you can prove me wrong on at least this much, because watching you try to needlessly butt heads against me like this isn't my idea of a good time.
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I'm actually kinda tempted to get in touch with them and just outright ask them. A direct clarification would put an end to most of this passive-aggressive crap, and it would perhaps move the site owners to consider a rule alteration regarding such bundles. I think we might be seeing a lot more of these cross-platform bundles in the future, especially if EA knows what is good for them and tries to bolster their catalogue.
But really, I simply can't be bothered :P
I've already spent too much time bickering. I have a movie I have paused and the night isn't getting any younger. I'll leave that honour to those who felt strongly enough to openly berate and demean others instead of engaging in simple, honest debate~
(not speaking so much about you, beside having injected a passive-aggressive tone, you were pretty straight up in your approach)
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I see, and so we have found that by the logic currently employed and your provided link, that steamgifts itself is itself a big base for piracy. I assume this means you will be retracting entirely from this community, or alternately confessing to being a dirty pirate. GG
Did it never occur to you that is a generic disclaimer of sorts that (I assume) is placed in all bundles, and that nothign was signed agreeing to this? What if when purchasing a gift for someone, you forgot to click the "this is a gift" box? Would you then consider the newly purchased bundle (that you already owned) unable to for manual gifting because of the text you linked?
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Actually, no. That issue has been gone over at length numerous times elsewhere. What we're discussing here is people buying a license for themselves and then giving other people unlicensed access to that content, not transferring some of their licenses to others, which is viewed differently from bundle to bundle.
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How come you are allowed to talk to people like that and when others do, they get a suspension?
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Actually, no. People are rarely suspended for simple insults or arguments. Otherwise there'd be almost no forum activity at all. Nice try, though. All the cool kids love to throw around baseless accusations of abuse. Now you can be one of them!
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Rarely is the key word! So you admit that it does happen!
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Of course that's a violation of everything. lol. That's not close to gray area.
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Hell, life is full of 'em. You just hope that someday there is some self-reflection. Sometimes it happens (I have good friends that once wouldn't have been), sometimes it doesn't (Steve Jobs never changed).
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Frankly, if anyone actually falls for that it's on them. Anyone with any measure of sense would research who that person was. Or try to find out how he could get such a bundle for less than the asking price. Or realize that the individual games were on sale historically for cheaper than $75 (or will be in the near future).
And all that would be moot anyway. The buyer would have had to have accepted $75 as a fair price for them to actually go through with it. It's a valid, voluntary exchange. Sure one side would be a moron and the other an asshole, but there's nothing actually inherently objectionable of the act as I see it, except for the seller's splitting the Origin keys off what is supposed to be a single license.
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That's a slippery slope, there. But I do agree that there is at least some level of caveat emptor here.
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But the money doesn't even go to the developers. There isn't an option for that in this bundle.
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Site staff can attempt to police giveaways for previously bundled games. That was what happened before, but unfortunately there was too much traffic and too little manpower to practice effectively. And in any case gifters wanted to gift and giftees wanted the gift, regardless of source.
They could just block games with historically bundled licenses from being listed at all, and then police whoever's passing the keys off under other names. However this can block a good number of legitimate licenses as well. Requiring steam inventory presence for instance would basically kill gifts from Amazon, GMG, Gamersgate, etc.
Or they could try to get at the root incentives for giving away bundle games, CV being the most obvious. The way the CV system is set up it incentives this sort of behaviour (exploiting hyper-cheap sales to maximize CV). I admit to doing this myself, but I think I justify myself here with 'hate the game, not the player'. Now, before the CV system was implemented people were still giving away bundle keys, either to build reputation or as an act of charity so that the keys wouldn't go unused (though I would argue this is logically and morally flawed in itself), but never to the extent of what we're facing now. This is why I don't like the CV system as it is, and would argue that it should be replaced (if it should be replaced with anything at all) with a set of tiered offic.al SG steam groups with actively moderated entry requirements.
Better yet would be a way to actual dis-incentivise giving away separated bundle keys. I don't know confidently how that could be accomplished, however. (Perhaps just tank the contrib. value of bundled games to zero?)
Or just accept the current setup: SG is in no way obligated to enforce the contracts made between HIB/EA and their customers. It's on HIB and EA to prevent people from re-trading split keys.
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My opinion on what you legally do with your legally acquired personal property is very important.
Shame on you if you disagree.
If you paid less than their individual current total retail values, ITS IMMORAL.
But seriously, no.
If Steamgifts were to investigate this and enter talks with Humble, EA and Origin, and then decide to disallow this on their own site, I'm sure we would all comply happily. After all, we're here because we're doing this legally. If we weren't, we would have already pirated everything and bypassed any form of honour system blocking our way.
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Nah, I'm sure a good percent is just here to boost their Steam libraries for convenience. Piracy isn't as great and easy as you make it sound :p It can be a pain in the ass and sometimes wont let you play online like the "legit" copies do. So, no... I'm sure a good percent would start secretly giving out keys still. I just think the rule is never enforced because the goal for the devs is to get some of their work known by the public or something. To top it off, they don't exactly make a lot of money doing it being I bet most people, like myself, give all the money to charity (or at least most of it).
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EA is giving their share to charity but no doubt they've already compensated the devs somehow for the sales either way. This is a massive campaign to get people to use Origin so really I don't see the harm in sharing extra never to be used Origin keys. And before people start to go into personal attacks I bought 3 copies of the bundle above average so I don't want to hear it.
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Are you unaware of the ability to buy games as "gifts" directly from Steam?! o_O
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Your too fucken stupid to understand people first purchase a license for themselves, then several other licenses as gifts to give away while donating more to charity. I see no harm in that or any illegal activity, it's actually more a positive thing and increases their sales greatly from those that might of missed it?
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What you just said has fuck-all to do with this thread. Since you can't even wrap your feeble little mind around the topic under discussion, let me spell it out for you:
Where exactly you think gifts figure in to all of this is beyond me. Pull your head out of your ass and learn to read/think for a fucking change. I'm tired of seeing you derp around the forum like a wounded animal, struggling to grasp even the simplest of ideas presented in the most normal, direct ways.
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I was unaware you could do that on the same key, I assumed it was a different purchase each time, my mistake, case closed.
However, I'm also tired of seeing your abusive behaviour, how the fuck did you become a support of this site, you completely suck at it and just wind people up like a troll. As for me, I stand for the little people who still have a voice.
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I don't know what you mean, but I'm so tired of arguing. And don't worry. I don't think I'll be around for much longer. This isn't the community I signed on to help any more. It's full of assholes and idiots, greedy fucks who only make giveaways with free shit to try and get into contributor giveaways, and so on. I don't know why I even bother any more.
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wbarton is nowhere near the most aggressive support member.
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I don't understand how that was abusive. He was merely telling you to get your head out of your ass, because you obviously don't see the big picture.
Yes, there are some Support members who are abusive with their power, but I'm pretty sure Wbarton is just frustrated with everything about this thread. I mean I'm losing 9 brain cells just reading the shit that all these morons are posting.
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Everyone else however missed my point that "Are you unaware of the ability to buy humbles bundles as "gifts" directly from their own site?", which is what I do and don't see any issue against. On the steam forums, I use to give away shit loads of freebees to others and in return support many Charities (including childrens charities). On this crappy forum however I'm threaten to be banned for doing so, because of assumptions of where those keys came from. If it's not clearly stated in the rules then by all means you have no right to do so...
I'm only an asshole against things which are two sided, gray area.
Ps: 99% of my giveaways aren't even on here, I don't give a crap about any contributor rating or greed.
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How does giving away keys for free increase their sales? Wouldn't that mean losing potential customers?
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Yeah, it's pretty sad that so many people don't even have basic reading comprehension on this site... :(
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Mmmm where is it written you are buying only 1 licences on the humble bundles ? Oo mmm i guess i do not see it anywhere ... It is just their decision to give Origin AND Steam key for these games ... In the end they will make a lots of money ... Charity will receive barely a part of it and everyone will be happy lol
And im pretty sure we could almost say... there is 11 Day left to the humble bundle ... And im pretty sure they will be able to hit the 10,000,000$-15,000,000$ if not even more lol ...
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At least someone see it as currently it stands?
Total payments: $6,090,004.66
Number of purchases: 1,265,601
Most people will purchase more than one copy and share the others that they don't use. How does that harm them? I've previously purchased 12 or so copies with smallish donatations, or simply offer a larger sum for a single copy. Those additional copies I end up giving away freely.
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You're probably referring to the now allowed resale of licenses. That has nothing to do with this case
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The recent ruling said that if you are able to deprive yourself of access to the software, and grant it to someone else instead, that's legal. You are correct that it certainly doesn't allow two users to use a single-user license simultaneously, but I would argue that if you were to write to Steam support and ask them to deactivate your subscription to the game, thus depriving yourself of access, and then sell/give the Origin key to a third party, that person would be legally entitled to use the software.
The current ruling doesn't oblige third parties like Valve or EA to assist the new legitimate owner, so it normally has little practical effect for software using online, account-based DRM like Steam or Origin, since while you can give someone the legal right to use your unwanted software, you can't give them the practical ability. However, if you have a spare key, that changes.
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It's refreshing to read such a text since i've explained the content many times without success.
However, if you hand out the spare key to another person, you are not allowed to use your Steam copy anymore. Steam support usually removes games from your account if you ask them to (and thus essentially deleting the copy) so that should be the proper measure if you gift the spare key. If they don't remove your Steam copy, it should be enough if you won't use it anymore
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That law is actually for reselling games, so I'm not sure it even applies if you are giving them away for free, but:
"There is one condition, however. If you resell a license to a game you have to make your copy "unusable at the time of resale". Now you will do that, won't you?
"If he continued to use it," the Court explained, "he would infringe the copyright holder's exclusive right of reproduction of his computer program. In contrast to the exclusive right of distribution, the exclusive right of reproduction is not exhausted by the first sale."
You could argue that if you are buying 1 license for all of the games, in order for it to not be piracy, you would have to not use any of the keys for yourself. Like I said thought, this law is for reselling games, so I'm not sure if it applies to this.
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I get your point - but generally i give away leftovers from bundles, if i had a certain game in the bundle already, i'll let it go to someone who can use it, i would never try and profit of'a bundle, i have more than once bought "mercy bundles" for people who couldn't afford them or weren't old enough to have a useable creditcard
so yeah i also give away full bundles now and then, which in your book would be "ok" - but i give what i can to the community, and if that is my leftover scraps from bundles? so be it, people appreciate the games whether they have cost me a dollar or a weeks pay
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You mean that? About the "mercy bundles"? I don't want to get it for free, I can give a paysafecard with 1.60 Euros (left from summer sale) for the bundle, without the extra 2 games. I don't care how many money you'll spend, I mean, 1.60 Euros are more than 1.60 dollars, but I don't really care, think it as a more... good "thank you". If you do trust others, please, friend me and we can discuss about it! :)
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I don't agree with that in that way of thinking, 'cause if you think about it when you were younger and you had no internet you would buy a game (eg: Sims) and if your friend really liked the game you'd lend it to him, so he could play as well. He'd use your serial key too. Do you see where I'm going? If you think about it lending accounts to your friend so he can play your games or lend your Sims serial key is the same.
I can understand the feeling behind those laws, but I'd like them see our point too.
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I agree with everything you said, except that it's not piracy.
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Piracy is the wrong word. Morally questionable - like many things in life - ok.
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It amazes me how many people are completely oblivious to this fact, thank you for pointing it out (even if most people will still not get it)
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Im dirt poor, so if im "engaging" in "piracy" by using a key that someone paid for and gave away, so be it. I honestly do not feel it as piracy, I also do not consider sharing a bag of chips that i paid for with another person as stealing, even if the company does not get twice the amount of sales.
I guess I am a horrible person.
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I love how your lack of money makes you able to redefine the law to suit your purposes. Thanks for that info.
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I wouldn't worry about this in this particular case. By giving out individual keys, EA knew exactly what it was doing. It's trying to drive people to Origin, as they are not making enough money as it is there. I'd hardly kick up a fuss. They're probably happy that people are sharing codes. It's a long-term approach.
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When you buy a Humble Bundle, you're paying for a license to be used by one person for each game. Humble is awesome, and set up this cool thing where you get to use your license on whatever platform you wish that's available. You can get a Steam license, a Desura license, a DRM-free license, or even Origin license, but its intended to be ONE LICENSE for ONE PERSON. When you pay for one bundle and then let multiple people access the same games, it's piracy.
I see Desura keydrops here all the time, and I know they're duplicate licenses from Humbles. Now we get Origin keydrops everywhere. Witcher/Witcher 2 GOG backup codes on SteamTrades. Don't Starve Chrome keys. It's piracy. You're sharing a one-person license.
Humble is awesome, GOG/CD Projekt is awesome. Let's stop abusing their awesomeness. Encourage people to buy themselves instead of hunting for keydrops. And for the love of GabeN quit trying to profit off of them through trade.
EDIT: HEY, DO WHATEVER THE HELL YOU WANT WITH YOUR KEYS. You're not going to get in trouble, you're not going to get arrested. When you share your licenses, it just makes most people who understand software licensing think you're an asshole. We're not going to stop you, we're not going to suspend you. The two suspensions below were because it's pretty damn disrespectful and stupid to do it in this thread. Have a good day, and thanks for the drama.
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