Pure evil, sounds nice on paper but once you look into it the whole thing gets very dark and ugly. I can go on forever but just do some research, I would be all for it if the main point was to cure starvation around the world, but alas it is not that, and then there is the health problems and uncertainties surrounding it, on top of that the smaller farmers being sued because a seed landed in there crops that was GMO, etc...
It goes deep and its not pretty, I will leave it at that. Google is your friend, search it up.
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Telling people to "look it up" isn't gonna make a point. In a discussion you're expected to present your own arguments, not tell somebody else to find them for you.
I will however agree with you that the patent system used for seed is a very bad thing, I don't think that's a problem specific to GMOs however.
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Thanks. :)
I don't fully agree with the patenting seeds at its full. But after all it's their invention. Isn't it? Don't pharmaceutical companies get an exclusive explotation period for their medicines too? I don't know. You can't fully negate the intellectual propierty of those breeds.
I'm completely against to patenting genes, though.
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The biggest issue is that unlike with plants, you can have two bottles of pills side by side, and you wont ever find pills from one bottle, in the other bottle without human interaction. Now lets imagine you have an all natural crop that is being grown beside a GMO crop. Well, seeds can be dispersed from one field to the other. Pollination can create mixed species. And under the current patent system, a patented seed, and all of its cross breeds, belong to the creator. The includes any crop that was spread by the wind, or by birds, or anything really.
This ends up leading to lawsuits, started by large companies (not saying who, but we should all know by this point...), which end up killing off the smaller, family owned farms and farmers. The large company gets the farmer's land instead of huge sums of money, which the farmer cannot afford, and then goes on planting more GMO crops.
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Usually I do, but to tackle what I would want to say in this would take up pages and waste my time...honestly its better just to type into google and read about it there, you will find everything rather quickly, not that hard.
I don't have to spoon feed people everything, even though thats how people seem to be taught nowadays(Bad way imo).
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If you considering discussing the topic a waste of time I'll ask you to refrain commenting on it, specially if it's to present empty words and false accussations. I know how to do a search and I have a formed opinion, but I want to hear yours. I already know mine.
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I gave my opinion, you ignored it.
Apparently you don't know how to search it, and for that I am sorry.
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No sorry. You gave a value judgement and throwed around some ambiguous statements and then appealed to my ignorance. I don't think that's a nice way of argumentating, is it?
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No I did go into why I thought it was bad, I didn't want to go into the whole health reasons because its quite vast, I am not gonna write a book for you, I said it was also bad because of how it hurts farmers, also because its being used for the wrong reasons, profit, not world hunger, I beleive one place did it to solve hunger and basically that was putting certain nutrients into vast rice crops, anyways, I could care less what you think or want me to say, have a good day.
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Good luck with your self entitlement and your shortness of sights. I hope everything goes well in that high knowledge ground you are sitting at.
Have a good day you too, be careful no to use anything derived from GMO, such almost any medicine, or eat anything poulluted by them.
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I don't accept look it up as an argument, sorry. That was clear enough when I got banned from SG chat
If you want to present a point, present it fully and if possible back it up, I'll do the same when it my turn comes. Cheers.
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Bull shit. This is the kind of comment that perpetuate myths. Nothing wrong with them have been proved so far.
All you see around the internet are OPINIONS, not FACTS. There isn't a single well documented free paper I've put my eyes on who prove or show ANY kind of correlation.
The problem is mainly the private corporations. But that exists with medical drugs too, and no one calls them evil. Atleast no one sane.
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Which is why they are banned in many countries ;-)!
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In this case, responding to a fallacy with another fallacy seems to negate it pretty well.
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They are not banned in "many" countries (actually only 64 out of ~195 )because they are unsafe. Rather, they are banned for political reasons because the governments do not want a foreign company to have that much of an impact on their economy. The World Health Organization, the National Academies of Science and the US Food and Drug Administration have concluded that genetically modified foods pose no additional harm compared to conventional or organic foods.
Therefore, you should actually conclude that you should not support the large companies producing GMOs but find no fault with GMOs themselves.
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Actually, tons of people call medical drugs corporation evil. Especially those who need to work whole month to spend ALL their money on 30 pills just so they will vegetate (hard to call it life) on their spouse/family money to next month to buy another bunch of pills until they die...
Yes, I know why that happens (corporations need to get their money from R&D back) - but in the end you can either be profitable, or you can be good.
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Sorry. I got carried away. I mean that I've never experience such a thing as what you say as here we grant everyone universal and (almost free if you don't count taxes) healthcare
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Thought you meant something like this, just wanted to make sure.
Well, it probably depends on country. Here we also have it, but there are many drugs that are only fully-paid. You can quite often hear some news about old people having to decide between health and food, etc.
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Well. That sucks if you ask me. It's true that drugs are expensive but so is producing them in most cases, thank god with generics the market is becoming more competive. But there's a lot of lobbying and evil things going on.
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Any claim that can be presented without evidence can be dismissed without evidence.
"look it up" is not evidence.
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The term GMO is far, far too large to just be summed up with "they're good" or "they're bad." In almost all cases, GMOs are good for everyone involved. Good for the consumer, good for businesses, good for the environment. And yes, you read that last one right. One of the biggest uses of them is to modify a plant so that their natural pests no longer eat them which means fewer pesticides.
And for the record, the term GMO can apply to 99 percent of dogs (Does your dog have a breed? If yes, it's a product of genetic manipulation) and many plants you don't consider. Even if organic and branded as non-GMO, bananas were slowly cultivated and changed for generations to be what they are today. Natural bananas are nearly inedible to humans.
GMOs are almost universally good. The only bad thing is how the companies act with them, and how college hippies whose first semester really opened their eyes to the world use them as a rallying point when they don't fully understand what they even are.
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Almost everyone I know that is against them in 30+...but sure college kids do cling to things like that, but thats really not the only people fighting the GMO's.
Honestly thats why I put research it and google it yourself in my main message, I said I don't like them based on what they do to farmers, nutrient issues, and the reason companies like Monsanto are actually creating them, it wasn't to start an angry argument with the OP or anyone but if I actually sat down and wrote why it would be giant and no one would read it probably anyways, ad I would still get attacked like now...(Not by you btw, I dont agree with you but at least you came off alright...ya know?)
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Fair enough. When you used the term 'pure evil,' I sort of pulled that out to mean that you hate everything about them. What they do to corporations and such is a whole other story, and there is considerably more wiggle room there. If you hate GMOs because of the whole business climate, that's one thing, and I would still disagree with you for it (though that's my republican side, not my environmentalist side) but for a whole set of other reasons. Edit: For example, I see it as positive that corporations can copyright genome sequences, while based on your arguments, that's probably something you disagree with. There are legitimate points to be made on either side where the anti-GMO argument is pretty much all hippy-dippy 'it's not natural so it's bad!' stuff.
Also on that first sentence, I've had quite the opposite experience. I went to college in rural New Hampshire and majored in Environmental Science/Biology. Pretty much everyone who knew what they were talking about (IE: Had a PhD or Masters in a relevant field) were nothing but supportive of GMOs. The only people I usually see against GMOs are those superficial hipster hippies that have never even bothered to type the word GMO into google aside from seeing what it stood for.
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Sorry I just really dislike where its going, hell it might be a good thing if it was done super correctly and for the good of man, world depresses me sometimes, so much good could be done but a bunch of idiots always have to ruin it, its kinda like when you have a party and invite your friends and tell them they can invite a friend also and they bring a guy to destroy your house.
O_0
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That's certainly a legitimate point of view, I just disagree entirely with it :P I believe things like copyrighting genome sequences lead to faster breakthroughs and more funding, and worldwide, happiness is very much on the rise. The only difference is the gap between happiest and unhappiest is widening. I don't mind looking at the big picture over the little one. For example, if Monsanto didn't modify food, not only would it be much more expensive, leading to much more hunger, especially for the homeless and poor, but there would be less of it, and the farming industry would be even worse off than it is currently.
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Thats fine, as long as we can agree that it all comes down to how we view it, honestly everyone is gonna see this sort of stuff in a different light.
World is a complicated place, what we learn today we might disprove tomorrow and go "Wow I was dumb".
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Yes, it isn't about feeding anyone - it is about control of the world's food supply. Monsanto has systematically been buying out or shutting down major seed providers across the globe and the terminator seed (corn version) has proven at least once that it can crossbreed with regular corn, with disastrous, but predictable results. I don't think the argument should be about are the resulting foods safe or not, but more about should one company have so much control over any portion of the world's food supply - you should see what they have been doing in my state, here farmers are scared to harvest their own seeds - even if they aren't using Monsanto's seeds...
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http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bacillus_thuringiensis
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UYg3jKwPRhs
Fuck GMOs. Organic only. Check out- Food Matters - Hungry for Change plus 2 Extras (2013)
3x biggest obvious issues to our collective health/immunities - mercury, fluoride, GMOs. And radiation in the seafood now too.
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I love seafood, having a hard time with that one...Ughhh!
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I personally think what they did to bread was horrible enough(Use to be tons healthier), here comes the storm.
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Back your claims and don't make emtpy statements, please.
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Well back in the day we use to use ancient grains, throughout time we needed to grow them faster and faster due to want and population, because of this they needed to find a quick growing strain, to make this high yield grain, well it was altered until it was a fast grower, doing this basically created a fast growing yet unhealhy source and thats 99% of the bread we eat today.
First link I found googling it
Honestly I don't mind telling you why on this because its a much smaller amount of info, I don't feel like writing a couple pages on GMO's in general. If you don't like the source(Honestly seems fine but I didn't look into that, I knew this for years, I try to avoid most breads, my body feels much better when I do and when I eat it now it slows me down and makes me feel a bit bad).
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That only proves than processed industrial foods are bad, which is nothing new. And that the excessive explotation of agricultural land has lead to a denitrification and demineralization of such. Also it makes celiac people more sensitive to it. But that's not really bad per se.
I'm not going to consider Dr.Davis article at all and I don't have the time or the knowledge to check the Broadbalk experiment, to be honest. Also I found the site as a whole a little bit biased.
Moreover I would like to apologize for my behaviour, but your attitude wasn't really something I like.
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You're not going to be able to find an unbiased source on a topic like this, sorry. Keep in mind that biased doesn't translate to wrong one hundred percent of the time. The claims being made by Hillary are all essentially fact, it's just whether it's good or bad that can be argued.
(My points and stance are in plenty of other posts, so I'll leave you two to it, I just wanted to weigh in with that.)
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I know. And I acknowledged them. The thing is that I have a particular way of doing so, I guess. :/
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This is why I said research yourself(See my source wasn't to your liking, thats fine, you could find on easily to your liking most likely or not,it is controversial after all), I am not trying to be a dick about it, but there is so much info on this that to perfectly state what I believe I feel I would have to write a book or else it will come out badly, and I would get the "Prove it, haha opinions, lolol" type comments.
I didn't check out the site really, I read through the article and it matched what I learned about it years ago, so I just linked it. Oh and old fashion breads are much more tasty and oh so much more expensive haha.
But I bet you knew this was controversial when you started the thread, anyways, no hard feelings, your attitude wasn't something I liked also, so I guess we are even on that.
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Well. I agreed with you in the fact that old bread was healthier. But the problem is not related to GMOs or anything of the sort, but to industralization to overexplotation and all that. I would never negate that anything home-made is better than pre-cooked or processed food.
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Our ancerstors that lived for way less time? Those ancestors? :-/
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Fun fact: The world already produces enough food to feed everybody. (And just to be clear in case you didn't read my other walls of text, I'm pro-GMO)
Source search for 'Does the world produce enough food to feed everyone?' on that site to jump straight to it.
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Yeah....I tried to block that out because its to depressing to me honestly, worlds fucked up.
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Even worse when more people die of obesity than hunger-related issues.
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So give up your Hostess, give up your Hershey's, give up your fried chicken.....
And how about WHY it is evil....
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The only things I have heard about it have been misquotes and bad science. I haven't really looked into anything, but as long as the alterations are sensible and properly controlled when necessary, I think they are fine. I just have a problem with the idea of companies pulling weird political/legal maneuvers that screw people over, such as decide someone's crop is illegal or unauthorized because of natural pollination.
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Often GMO is much healthier for you and can even taste better. GMO is nothing more then a fast track version of artificial selection.
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It could. I mean it could be done somewhat naturally by bacteria or viruses and plasmids and stuff.
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I'm thinking over millions of years you "could" achieve the same affect by chance. Think about how weird some plants and animals are.
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Well considering I live in the USA atm its pretty hard to avoid them. It is possible but I'd probably have to drive out quite a bit. When I move back to Europe I will avoid them since I believe it is banned (although the seeds aren't banned for whatever reason).
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Monsanto was banned (the corporation) which I don't really like either. That is I'm not fully aware of all the EU policies on GMO but not ALL of them are banned, that's for sure. And I recall reading somewhere that the ban on monsanto was lifted in France. I don't really know now.
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What people fail to realise is that GMOs are not inherently evil nor inherently good, they have the potential to swing both sides of that spectrum. Anyone who says 'they are amazing' or 'they are evil' are terribly misguided. They have already helped us save so many crops via one method or another (pest/drought resistance) and have also caused harm (nut gene used and caused allergies in GMO product due to testing failure). These are just at the top off my head (and I might get paper links later) but there are ample examples for both great good and evil (horrible choice of word).
The human population is growing exponentially, we are barely producing enough food as it is, we beat this last time via the green revolution using next generation crops (if I remember right). Yes I will support them, they can be incredibly helpful we just have to make sure they are used right.
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That's pretty much my opinion. They should be regulated and made sure than the companies producing and exploiting them are not incurring into any shady practices. Genetically modifying anything is not either bad nor good, it all depends on what and how is modified.
For example if I created some breed of corn that contained curare, it would be bad for sure. But if it produced acetaminophen instead? You could be having corn for headaches.
Their implications and consequences are relative to what and how is modified. Nothing else.
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Companies make insulin and HGH using modified bacteria on an industrial scale, so they are life-saving.
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I know and I stated it on the OP. But I wanted here a more tangible example as bacteria are often a bit too insignificant in a daily basis. :)
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we are barely producing enough food as it is
Do you have an actual source or citation or are you just hypothesizing?
What I find interesting is that half of the world's food production goes to waste.
This means that even if food production remains the same, we can still feed the third world a couple of times over if we tried to limit the waste on a global level.
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That article fails to mention how it is often reused in the system. I have nothing to site on this, but with organic, edible waste, they often feed it to livestock as feed (canniblism FTW). So this asks the question, what exactly do you define as the food going to waste?
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Wasn't the use of meat in the alimentation of livestock forbidden since the spongy brainy thingie epidemic?
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I am not that familiar with livestock laws, or spongy-brainy-thingies......
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Sorry. Here you go, bobivne spongiform encephalopaty if bone marrow or brain from those cattle is eaten humans get Creutzfeldt-Jakob disease. Also quoting from wikivet
The most important of these [control] measures has been the feed ban issued in 1988, prohibiting the feeding of ruminant derived meat and bone meal (MBM) to ruminants [9] and the adoption of the ban by the EU in 1994.
Sorry for quoting wikis. BTW.
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I don't see anything mentioning the feed ban being in the USA (where I live), which may be why I haven't heard anything about it, but that doesn't mean it doesn't affect the USA. Also, that only applies to cattle, and not pigs and whatever else.
Mad cow disease is actually fairly interesting for people that understand what proteins do, which each protein has a single focused function converting certain molecules into another molecule. Seems to me, mad cow disease is proteins called Prions that changes certain molecules found in cows into more Prions. The only other non-living, self replicating thing out there other than viruses.
And no problem about only quoting wikis, this isn't college or high school or anything. I am willing to stand that almost all inaccuracies would be filtered out on things that aren't exactly controversial, like mad cow disease.
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And the mechanism that prions use is fairly interesting. They have two conformations, one of them harmless and they "spontanously" revert to the second one changin their tertiary structure and catalyze the transformation of other nearby prions, causing damage.
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"have also caused harm (nut gene used and caused allergies in GMO product due to testing failure)."
Actually I don't think that's true. The only case I've heard about was that the developers had to halt a project because mice showed that they were allergic to the peas or something. Could you cite what you're referring to?
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We'll contact you soon and you'll be moved to Rapture™ Soon™
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Nature has been doing it for quite some million of years, so just because now we can do it yourself doesn't make it wrong.
Also I hate how people just seem to think that artificial = bad and natural = good.
Many natural things like animals and plants are poisonous and would kill us, and many artificial things like medicines are very good.
So I find it very stupid to think a product is healthier just because it has less artificial things.
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Yeah that relationship of natural equals good and artificial equals bad is not really true. Although artificial substances are sometimes likely to be dangerous as their effects are not known, that's why medical experiments on mice and such are necessary.
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I dislike it. Mostly because I'm uninformed, and AS FAR AS I KNOW, there's no any studies/result on how do those products impact people long-term.
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Well, logic tells that if their modifications that are made didn't involve a risk by themselves there's nothing to fear. For example introducing fish proteins into lettuces (I'm totally making this up) those proteins would be the same as the ones expressed in fish and lettuces would express its own proteins regularly, so unless any of those involved any risks beforehand there's nothing to worry about, or so I think.
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Not caring is the most stupid choice. Unless that was an informed decision which I doubt.
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The way I see it, They certainly help more than they hurt. at this point the use is so widespread and the benefits so exponential, why wouldn't we continue to use them. If someone would really not choose helping starving people over sparing the feelings of some hippies, then that kind of bums me out.
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GMO = bleh. We know so few about genetics and yet we play with them like there is no danger. Mark my words, one day a bipedal fire-breathing, baby-eating evil-genius weed will come out of jungle and kick our human ass!
This is obviously an exaggeration, but you get the idea.
Or yet worse, they can be modified in a way that allows them to destroy local natural plants. And given a gene that requires some kind of formula for the plant to survive. One that is patented by a corp. Yeah, $$$$. Like that rice they are giving in India/Indonesia that has no seeds and you have to buy them after you harvest your rice if you want to farm for another year.
I just read an article few days ago how some kind of weed was able to absorb a gene that allowed a GM plant to survive hardcore-style herbicide/insecticide. So now it too has better chances against those. Also, scientists were shocked, cause nothing showed this might happen in the LABORATORY conditions. Science ftw.
To sum up, I'm happy we aren't seeing those here in Europe, they can keep them in the US, together with KGB-style secret services and 3 liter + engines in their cars. :P
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We do know a lot about genetics. Mendel back in its days already proposed a theory for genetic inheritance and we know so much that even a fully artificial organism has been created.
Moreover what you say on the second part is good, they can sure be used for that, but that's the thing, they are bad as long as they are used badly or as long as the modifications they suffer imply some kind of drawback.
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Why so aggressive?
Can't I have different opinion? Or will you force yours upon anyone that disagrees? You call me ignorant, I think I'm just very cautious. And it might be just playing with fire. You might know what it does, you might know how to make one and how to extinguish it but that doesn't mean it can't get out of control.
Don't get me wrong, I believe there is IMMERSE potential in GMO's. Just not now, not enough research, not enough data, too much politics involved in it. So sorry I don't want to trust a government/corporation that their product is 100% safe for me to eat, for animals to be fed and for natural plants to coexist with without anything bad coming out of it. Also patented plants often don't produce seeds. Doesn't that alarm you? I don't want to end up like hostage.
Cancer and other gene-altering/mutating diseases can be cured by gene-therapy/alteration. That doesn't mean we are going around fiddling with humans and their DNA. Take is slow, be rather wary of possible dangers and with time I'm sure it will be standard.
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I think it's a bit much to say that "a fully artificial organism has been created" because of his methodology. I can elaborate more if you want. As a side note, my personal opinion is that Craig Venter is a major dick for what he did with the Human Genome Project and trying to patent genes.
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I'd have to look my notes up an double check stuff but the impression I got is that the Mycoplasma laboratorium genome was created from scrap and once its nucleus was introduced in a nucleousless (I'm sure there's a better word) cell it lived alright. I would love to see your views on the matter though, if you don't mind.
And yeah. I think I stated the same somewhere in the topic. Patenting genes is a dick move.
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Mhm, the genetic material was introduced into an enucleated cell. The cytoplasm and the cellular membrane were of the recipient cell, so I don't consider the final product to be fully synthetic. To make a cell out of components that haven't touched or been though a living thing would be fully artificial, but would take a lot of work. I think Venter and his scientists took 10-15 years for that project.
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Oh, I see. Yeah, maybe saying that if was fully artificial was an overstatement :-/
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I remember reading about someone who ate a whole car, was that you?
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Perhaps the gene allowed him to digest cars, like that one guy who could eat plastics and metals no problem (i forgot his name, but apparently he had extra acidic stomach acid to aid in digestion).
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vultures have this too, which allows them to eat rotting meat, while killing infections/bacterias with their stomach acid.
Quite interesting stuff.
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GMOs I'm fine with in general, though I can't say I've dug very deep into their effects personally. I can't say I'm likely to trust the companies that could end up abusing the technology out of greed or misguided attempts to solve the world's problems and end up creating something unfortunate and uncontainable on a grand scale.
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If you could actually explain why so that we can discuss I'd be glad.
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If they can perfect it I think it can have a lot of benefits such as people in 3rd world countries being able to grow food modified to flourish in harsher climates and potentially bringing the price for food down globally. There is though a concern as it seems it is quite exploitable by large companies who will most likely do so as deception seems to be a large part of any industry nowadays when it comes to money.
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Yeah, that's the problem wild capitalism and its implications.
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My opinion is that vitromeat burgers is an excellent idea. Once they can guarantee the cultures they grow are as safe as other foods, and the taste/texture is at least somewhat comparable to normal meat, I will be all over that.
At least, until they start to eat us.
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I think sometimes we are moving too quickly with new technologies and I prefer to stay away from GMO's as much as possible. I'll let others be the guinea pigs. I think pesticides are much worse than GMO's though, in the beginning people thought pesticides were allright but just now we are finding out that it's really affecting the soils and it created a degenerative disease that is killing the bees that we need so much for pollinating. The same could happen with GMO's. I don't know how many short-term side effects have been found, but if there are serious long-term side effects, a lot of damage will already have been done.
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I have a friend that told me he had read an article on how this GMO corn(round-up resistant) was dangerous, causing cancer. After a little while I got him to send me the link to the article, so I can read it myself, and it was an article misquoting another article, siting the research study, and in the original article, the corn that was causing the cancer had round-up sprayed on it, and the non-GMO corn that had no side effects had no round-up on it. I wish I was able to find the actual research paper to put the final nail in the coffin on it, but I couldn't. They did mention normal corn with round-up on it that caused cancer in the original article too.
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It's a good idea, and it's been proven. The reason why certain staples (potatoes, rice) have such high yields is because of GMOs, and it's the reason why food prices aren't ridiculous and why more people aren't starving.
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So, splicing jellyfish genes into tomatoes will help reduce the amount of viable food dumped in landfills? For the US, the percentage of food wasted is estimated at 40%, and is comparable to that of other developed countries.
Truth be told, responsible distribution of food supplies would save a few hundred million people from malnutrition and starvation, with or without GMOs. Read up EephusSwift's comment above yours for a couple of reasons why GMO's could be great if regulated properly, but probably aren't.
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Pretty much that, yeah. They're a great idea, but that doesn't mean that they're utilized properly.
For the record jellyfish taste delicious :D
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So I was kinda of losing the habit of creating discussion topics and here we go again.
So, yeah. What's your opinion on GMOs? For those that didn't know, GMOs (Or genetically modified organisms) are, as their name suggests, organism whose genetic material has been altered by the use of genetic engineering techniques.
Those modifications vary but some examples could be obtaining knock-out organisms, that is, organisms which don't express a certain gene, mostly for their use in investigation; obtaining species able to produce a certain substance they weren't able to such as getting insuline from bacteria and it's also important its use in the food industry and I think that's the one use people care more about when it comes to GMOs.
In the food industry crops are modified genetically so that they can resists frosts, are not prone to be infected by certain insects or diseases and, to sum up, give a better production overall as oposed to traditional agriculture.
So my question is. Do you consume genetically modified food? What's your view on them? And, do you think that every single way of genetic modification is the same? If not, which one presents the most advantages/drawbacks to you?
Do you think that they present risks for their consumers? To be honest I think that eating a genetically modified crop is the very same as eating any other kind of food. There's nothing inherently evil with genetic modification, what is more if bacteria produced tomatoes those tomatoes would be the same kind as regular tomatoes, wouldn't they?
Opinate on.
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