5 years ago

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Men's rights is something people only say to counter women's rights. The fact is, [straight] [white] [cisgender] men have almost all the rights a person can have.

5 years ago
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Well, that phrasing is pretty inaccurate; regardless of comparative rights to a minority, social injustice can affect anyone regardless of status or label. Rather, when the topic reaches the point of "men's rights", it instead turns into "human rights", since men are [within their labeling as men alone] rarely prejudiced against in a way that is overt and expressed via threatening or limiting, concentrated social pressure, as per the pressures against minorities, solely due to their being labeled as men.
Arbitrary social separation lines are drawn over most anything, and it's expected that those in power will attempt to exert that power to favor themselves at the expense of those they deem antagonists (or suitable victims); thus, it's inexplicable and contrary to expectations for a majority to ever have to face the same overwhelming kind of prejudice a minority would, though they certainly may have their own list of social injustices that want for addressing.

Men- as with perhaps any grouping- do have notable societal concerns to deal with, sometimes ones that are in fact significant on a societal level, but they (within their capacity as a majority) don't have the same pervasive second-class relegation that their comparative minorities face. Thus, it becomes less of a "rights movement", wherein the goal is to establish widescale rights for a group which has extremely restricted rights or social status or some other form of pervasive social limitation, and more of a "resolving specific social inequalities, prejudices, or counterproductive pressures related to the specific group". The goal can still be just as positive, but it can't share in the terminology, as the usage of that terminology refers to something that's somewhat different in scope.

5 years ago*
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I would say, regarding "social injustice can affect anyone," it really depends on your point of view and what you're willing to label a social injustice. For example, I do not consider it a men's rights issue when a screening of wonder woman is women-only. As with all things in life, perspective shapes our phrasing, and I do not see any serious men's rights issues as an American.

(I specify American only because that's my only perspective. So, if you are aware of injustices outside of the country, I can't comment on those. My comments are restricted to an American perspective.)

5 years ago
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Men in most any developed country face significant pressures to behave in a certain way (just as women are similarly pressured), and are typically deemed to be inherently dangerous or unfit in relation to children, even in contrast to a woman with clearly established troubles. There are certainly specific instances where men are treated at a disadvantage to women, or where they face their own complimentary social pressures to behave in a certain way.
There's no "point of view" to that, as ignoring those concerns would be as based in prejudice as ignoring the concerns of any minority. If you're not seeing social injustices in regards to men, you're not looking; there are, however, no pervasive rights issues that would qualify them for any kind of rights movement. It's an important distinction of nuance, not a simple toggle where all the problems in life are exclusively limited to specific individuals, and being male frees you from those risks.
In further support of that, a male can still be disabled or gay or otherwise face persecution, and may face that to a degree which is stronger than that which women with the same labels face. Take the fact that lesbians are generally treated slightly less critically than male homosexuals are. Male may not be the dominant factor there, but it's still a factor.

Moreover, social injustice can affect anyone, since corruption in a governmental or societal level can be pervasive and affect people regardless of what label or status they may have. Imagining that social injustice just magically disappears if you have the right labels is the sole purview of the rich and politically connected; everyone else still has to deal with that risk. Being that you're an American, and corruption is wide-spread throughout the country to shocking degrees, it's quite relevant to you. [Which isn't necessarily to make a contrast to other countries, just to highlight that it's of personal relevance to you.]
A notable example is the lack of oversight toward police in America, which gives them nearly unlimited power with nearly no risk of punishment. While a small portion of crimes against blacks are highlighted, power abuse isn't always exclusively applied to specific minorities alone. There, there's an obvious rights issue where specific minorities are treated more strictly than other groups, but there's also an overall rights issue for all citizenry. Thus, serving as an example of my initial point that "men's rights", when they exist, are really just a way of saying "human rights", since the minorities are presumably already going to be affected (and likely moreso) in any large-scale rights-violating situations where even the majorities are affected.
The influence of corporations and the rich over politics is another massive factor, as is the fact that the governmental structure isn't designed to stably support only two dominant parties, and the fact that the electoral college can so easily negate popular vote (which in turn opens elections up to an increased risk of corruption, though one could perhaps argue that vote-tampering would be a possible alternative).
If you're interested in many, many more additional specific examples, there are plenty of resources available; perhaps the most easily recognizable resource at this point in time is John Oliver's Last Week Tonight tv show.

I do not consider it a men's rights issue when a screening of wonder woman is women-only

That's not a pervasive societal concern, so it's irrelevant to the topic of general rights. If theaters in general segregated film viewings, that'd be a rights concern. If a specific theater segregated film viewings, that may be an expression of localized social injustice. If a single film viewing is segregated, it's simply a thematic quirk or a single act of bigotry, not something that needs to be addressed via a massive political rights movement.

Again- scale, presentation, and specifics are all important factors in conversations like these.

5 years ago*
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John Oliver is awesome.

Well written and eloquent post. I like how you made your point without being simply contrary.

5 years ago
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And yes, as antocapone has pointed out, John Oliver IS awesome. No argument with either of you there. :)

5 years ago
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I see your points, I do. You have typed a lot, which I greatly appreciate. I wish I was a little more invested in the debate to respond in kind. I will say that expecting men to "act a certain way" is largely an expectation imposed mostly by other men, from what I have seen, although it is not exclusively so. Gender-based expectations are more of an issue across the board, as you said, and, as such, lose their relevance of being an example of a men's rights topic.

I agree with you regarding the theater screening. It was just the only example I could think of in the recent past where men were, in my opinion, freaking out.

The problem with men's rights is the same problem as All Lives Matter. Of course men should have full equal rights too. No one is saying they shouldn't. And yet, the cries of "What about Men's Rights" tend to only happen when someone speaks in favor of women's rights. That's disingenuous.

5 years ago
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5 years ago
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Divorce and separation are some of the big examples, but both adoption and basic retention of custody as a single parent are both also areas where males can face pervasive prejudice (that women don't necessarily face).

5 years ago
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That must be why the majority of men get custody over children instead of women. Oh wait.

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5 years ago
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Hmm, that's a fair point, although a bit anecdotal without links to research that shows that there are not usually additional factors. Still, that is good food for thought.

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in my country this always happens every time men talk about their rights they want to take more of women rights, they even could get away with murder of their wives and daughters and in the west there is incel and other men movment who treat women like crap.

5 years ago
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I would love to have the same attention from my managers in my past job. Incredible how their never cared about the conquered privileges.

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Two shitposts in under an hour. Bold move, Cotton.

5 years ago
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5 years ago
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Simply pointing out that this diatribe could have easily been combined into one off-topic forum thread.

5 years ago
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I've already dared to call "foul" in the other post. I'm staying out of this one.

5 years ago
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Why post this here? What are you even trying to achieve in a video game forum?

5 years ago
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...this isn't the "Free Pies" forum? How on earth do I keep confusing that. ..I blame low blood sugar. Not enough pies, you see.

5 years ago
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5 years ago
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Ah damn I must have messed up my bookmarks ^^

Pumpkin vs Sweet Potato?

5 years ago
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...versus? Are you saying I can't just have both? That's laaaaame.

Well, it's harder to get sweet potato pie to get a smooth and balanced flavor but, if you succeed, it tends to have a bit more depth of flavor than pumpkin. I've also had better luck mixing it with other flavors than pumpkin, for pies (though blended pumpkin smoothies can be fantastic). Pumpkin is pretty darn tasty, though, especially if you emphasize the nuttiness. Well, why not just make a pumpkin-sweetpotato-carrot pie? Those are nummy and well-complimented, if done right, and there's no need for exclusion then.

Definitely pumpkin loaf over sweet potato loaf, though; sweet potato rolls over pumpkin rolls, on the opposite side. Ooh, Pumpkin cookies are good as well, but I've never had sweet potato cookies. Do you think those'd be good? Must.. go.. bake.. nummies..

5 years ago
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My wife made a pumpkin sweet potato pie once. It was amazing. ^^

Never had loaf of either though, didn't even know it was a thing!

5 years ago
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My wife made a pumpkin sweet potato pie once. It was amazing. ^^

Ain't it, though? =O
Really, the things some people miss out on just 'cause they don't try things flavored beyond a single ingredient.

Never had loaf of either though, didn't even know it was a thing!

Yes, so very much a thing! In my opinion and off my experiences, the best pumpkin breads are the cake-like ones while the best sweet potato breads are the more bread-like ones, though I find that sweet potato gives more robust flavor to rolls (tasting not all too different from normal potato rolls, in a sense) [though pumpkin bread rolls certainly can be presented rather attractively].
If you've got a baker in the family, definitely explore the flavors! And don't forget to bake some pies while you're at it- can't ever have enough of those!

5 years ago*
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5 years ago
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The way you phrased your question though implied something else to me. It seemed you just wanted to cause an argument without actually inputting anything of value. But maybe that is just me.

5 years ago
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They already attacked me on my Oxenfree giveaway for linking to an instagram giveaway I was also doing. I'm guessing they are just looking to rile people today, for whatever reason.

5 years ago
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Los hombres reales, supongo, no se molestan en alegar por cosas que no son importantes y buscan la forma de sobrellevar sus problemas, luego estan los que se rinden y ahogan en alcohol.

5 years ago
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5 years ago
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Closed 5 years ago by Deleted-6921432.