There is nothing to dare as you have atheist, non religious and religious people on this world. It's a given fact.
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To wholeheartedly deny the existence of a "god" is just as foolish as wholeheartedly accepting it.
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"notable" =/= provable, especially considering the ludicrously small sample size of the universe that any given human experiences.
You cannot prove the definite non-existence of "god" just as much as one cannot prove the definite existence.
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God is the only thing out there where people try to pretend something exists and simultaneously claim the onus is on a person calling that claim out to prove otherwise lol.
What are you talking about? That isn't what I said at all. Someone claiming the existence of god is just as suspect as someone completely denying the possibility of said existence.
For the record, I am not claiming the existence of a "god." However, I am open to the possibility of some higher life form(s) that we do not yet comprehend (obviously with the stipulation of logical proof).
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I mean, you can laugh, but you still can't prove it either way. I too used to be an atheist as a rejection to my religious upbringing. However, complete denial of the possibility of "god" in any form is an extremely limited view, especially considering our utterly insufficient understanding of the universe at large. I find it better to be open to the agnostic, as strict adherence to atheism is a disservice to our larger understanding and falsely asserts our human importance.
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Copi, Introduction to Logic (1953), p. 95
And here's the crux to my point-- you keep acting as if this is something that is "solved." This view discards the fact the Logic as an entire concept is built solely upon human perception and our current understanding of the universe.
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I'm not saying that burden of proof isn't required, actually quite the opposite. However, explicit denial due to the absence of said burden is also reflective of the ignorance you describe.
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And I would argue that is a limited view, considering the relative age of the universe and our own handicapped perception of such.
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The relative age of the universe is disproven according to the bible. So the presence of god should be accounted for what is written within his word.
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You may notice I have been using the nominative "god" as we aren't describing one, single definition of a being(s) as you just did with a specific example given by the christian bible.
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Then we could be talking about literally any ipothesis without really coming up with something meaningful. This kind of argument becomes really subjective when you cross out the christian god from the equation.
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Exactly. It is difficult to conceptualize such ideas, as most exist outside of the scope of our current human understanding. This is the basis for theoretical science.
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The Bible was written by prophets, which can be seen as a representative of God, not by God himself. But these representatives are still humans, that aren't perfect. They're just you and I that make mistakes. Yes, there are many things in the Bible that leaves much to be desired. We also have to think that preserving a book that old(or better yet, the collection of books) for ~3000 thousand years ain't easy. There was a lot of typos made during all those years(because if you want a new book, you have to write the whole damn thing again) and many books just disappeared with time(we only know of these books because they are referred on different rare occasions on the Bible).
But if we want to test the existence of a God, the Christian/Jewish/Muslim God(I put all as the same God because all the mentioned are Abrahamic religions, or in other words, they are descendant of Abraham) can't be the only one taken into account. There are several other religions that believe in different gods and deity. With different accounts and origins and other doutrines, prophets and many more things.
If there's a God out there, I can't tell you. But our knowledge of the universe is too thin to get into any conclusion. Hell, we don't even 100% certainty that there was a Big Bang. There are evidences, but it's still called a theory for a reason.
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In science a theory is basically the best you can hope for. It's not comparable to what we call a theory in common speech. While the Big Bang is a theory with quite a bit of evidence supporting it, god is merely a hypothesis with absolutely no evidence supporting it.
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I would argue that claims of existence have been made repeatedly over human history, and yet there has never been proof to accompany it.
Someone in 1893 could argue the same thing about the possibility of human flight, only to be proven wrong a decade later.
Edit: Again, I'm not discounting any burden of proof. It's perfectly reasonable to qualify by saying the existence of "god" is less likely than the existence of extra terrestrial life. But again, without absolute proof, to completely discredit the idea is as foolish as completely accepting it.
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People have always been able to observe flight (via birds) and have known that some form of human flight would happen eventually
Some people have known that some form of human flight would happen eventually, some. Many, many more rallied against the idea. You see the same today as some people believe in their vision of "god" just as others reject such.
In parables and such, it's through magic, mystical beings, etc...
Yet this somehow does not analogically relate to the idea of mystical beings in the sky? I dunno man, feels like you're being purposely obtuse at this point. I'm not even arguing against your edification via proof, just your limiting view due to your unquestioning adherence to human perception and its constraints.
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But wait, in your free-thinking use of logic can't that be turned around on you? Isn't your view limited by not setting limits? If everything is an option, doesn't that prevent you from accepting fact, for there could be a fiction out there that can turn that fact into a fiction and the fiction into fact?
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Not unless you entirely disregard probability and logical deduction. Again, there's nothing wrong with purporting a thing to be less or more likely to have occurred/existed. Take the Big Bang Theory, for example.
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In that case I theorize that our sun will not sustain life long enough to help us determine if there is indeed a god. If intelligent life had sprouted as soon as the first spark of life had happened we would still have been 10 minutes too late. Darn.
waves goodbye to god
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And your theory can stand until it is proven or dis-proven. It's not difficult to seek logic, be rational, and also keep an open mind.
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Let's accept for a moment what you are saying. Would you spend the same time and effort on the matter if someone denied the existence of blue unicorns or magic gnomes? As another user said above, it often feels like God is the only imaginary being out there (as it is a product of human imagination, for all we know) for which the onus of proof falls on whoever attempts to deny its existence.
Humans are limited in our understanding of the universe, granted, but that's why we rely on empiricism and logical deduction (which ultimately lead to the scientific method) to push those boundaries. If the existence of one particular being is not supported by any splinter of evidence and defies logic, it is perfectly rational to dismiss it. There is a potentially limitless list of unfalsifiable ideas that one could think of, but luckily no one wastes any second on them.
But for some reason, people feel compelled to defend the extremely slim chance that one of such beings, an Almighty God, might exist against all odds.
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No proof? Then how do you explain this:
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I can't disprove that there is an invisible magical chipmunk in your brain right now making you type this.
Creating doubt and normalizing strange behaviour is 'Controlling the masses 101', no that's not a conspiracy theory, it's how you get things done.
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In a vacuum, sure. However, that's not what I said at all.
Again, I'm not discounting any burden of proof. It's perfectly reasonable to qualify by saying the existence of "god" is less likely than the existence of extra terrestrial life. But again, without absolute proof, to completely discredit the idea is as foolish as completely accepting it.
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The problem I have with the need for absolute proof is that it can legitimize and popularize "strange" ideas.
Eating a tiger penis or albino human heart doesn't seem to have any real health benefits besides a placebo effect, yet these theoretical medicines are more common in certain areas than aspirin. Something less extreme? Sacral Therapy and homeopathics.
When does the harm outweigh the benefit?
I am all for theorizing, but to build an entire system around what could very well be false beliefs. A system quite often created for profit or control.
I know you'll just come back with the same "But you can't ... so you shouldn't..." But just because I don't have much faith doesn't mean I don't have hope :P
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Well, you could split his head open but that would be a bit gruesome.
I can't prove there never has been a murder in the room I'm currently, just like I can't prove there has been one. Doesn't mean I should assume there has been one, but at the same time, I can't say I know for sure there never has been one.
And I think you shouldn't denounce people for acknowlidging the fact that it might have been, although you don't have to go along with it it act upon it.
And that's seperate from the whole fact religion is used as a tool for control. If it's not religion, it's something else, because the need (or rather, desire) for control is there anyway.
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I can split his head wide open, but the chipmunk is invisible, so that would only turn me into a crazy murderer :P
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Isn't it much harder to disprove something than to prove it? I'm agnostic so it's just for arguments sake.
I mean proving Bigfoot exists would only require solid verifiable photographic evidence. Proving Bigfoot doesn't exist however is virtually impossible. The fact nobody has captured said solid verifiable photographic evidence yet is not evidence of anything in itself, except for the fact nobody has been in the right place at the right time.
Again, no I don't believe in Bigfoot, I'm just using it as an example.
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I don't believe in a god, but the fact here is that we also aren't that advanced to definitively claim it.
For example, we only see in 3 dimensions. While some other creatures see in more dimensions. We also haven't got enough technology to figure out so many things. We constantly learn new things. Who says that god isn't some alien that just came, terraformed the planet and buggered off?
My point here is that you can't give guarantees for stuff that we can't even start to know yet. We aren't infallible and to claim otherwise would be ironic.
Overall, I personally would say that the odds of there being a god of any sorts is around 1 in a million or so. But those are still odds that can be fulfilled. I want technology to advance so we can keep disproving it or we can instead prove it. Either is fine by me.
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Im just going to jump in here :)
What do you mean by "some other creatures see in more dimensions" ? Could you elaborate me that ?
Other dimensions other then three we see is just as big of a theories as is god and other things, as far as I can recall..
Im just curious what you mean by it and which creatures ?
I mean - there are theories that state how the big bang happened which involve "other dimensions" that are strictly on paper.. And I love superstitious stuff and science, too.. So dont take it as an insult :) Just curious..
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This article talks about this
Essentially some creatures see things completely differently. Some things might stick out, some things might not. I'm not even making a definitive claim or anything. I've just read about that stuff and it has also interested me. It might not lead anywhere, but the fact is that humans might not always see everything that is possible to be seen.
Sounds crazy probably though :D
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Oh, ok :) Thanks for the link. But isnt the "fourth dimension" here used figuratevly just to describe science ? Not as actual another dimension ?
I think this is just looking too much into it.. Different eyes - different absorption of light, so they see things differently - but they are not different.
Also - If our eyes could see other "colors" or sprectrums of light, we would see many beautiful things. But it doesnt mean they are not there. Everything still physically exists here - in our own "dimensions". Basically animals just see those things in different colors
Anyhow - We wont know what animals see until they start talking. But we do have cameras and equipment to see different wave lengths of light, so I think that already takes the mysterious of of it :/
Also - I think it was Stpehen Hawking who had the theory about several dimensions, but I could be mistaken. You could look it up, maybe it would be of interest to you :) Cant find it myself anymore, though.
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a dichotomy that would not exist if we had not started to interpret in a literal way what was previously interpreted symbolically.
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True. But that doesn't mean the reasonable position as a non-believer is somewhere in the middle, giving both sides more or less 50%. Based on the information we have it is absolutely reasonable to deny the existence of a god with almost absolute certainty (so more like 99.9%).
EDIT: Not that you think I want to correct you. I think we're on the same page here. I still think it's important to clarify that the impossibility to disprove non-existence doesn't mean it's a 50/50. :)
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It flies and looks like an upside-down plate of spaghetti.
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1.
(in Christianity and other monotheistic religions) the creator and ruler of the universe and source of all moral authority; the supreme being.
2.
(in certain other religions) a superhuman being or spirit worshipped as having power over nature or human fortunes; a deity.
I'd say both here are correct if we're talking about just a god/gods.
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I wanted to say "Religion", but you live in the future.
Hats off to you.
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"dares"... jeesh, that's some cringe right there. r/atheism would be proud.
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I've been raised as an agnostic (as Thomas Henry Huxley put down everything) and I grew up and still am a Theravada Buddhist, which basically means that here in Europe I just say that I'm an agnostic (and in fact someone calls Theravadin "nontheistic buddhists").
So I'm definitely open to everything - it can even be true what's written in the Torah or in the Rigveda, but I've got no proof to say they're right or they're wrong, so I keep on going with my ethics and my life.
For what concerns the topic, that means that it's impossible for me to believe in unknown and unexplainable phenomenas that I didn't witness personally. I think that there is a huge probability of the existance of aliens, probably living in other dimensions/forms and meaning that we won't ever even be able to locate them or understand what they are made of, but there could be also aliens similar to us that developed societies similar to ours.
I really don't know though, since I have never seen anything about this. I've never had mystical or spiritual experiences, unfortunately (or luckily, who knows?).. so I just can keep on going as an agnostic, and a serious historian according to my academical degrees that force me to be quite realistic xD I have to rely on sources and realistic explanations.
But everything is possible and for sure I will never become an atheist, while it could happen that I'll become an adherent of some religion.. although it's extremely difficult, given how much all of them are so man-made.
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I don't say there aren't other lifeforms out there, sentient or not, intelligent or not. I just have a hard time believing that they visit us in giant disco balls. To me the word alien has lost it's meaning in most cases, it's tainted, just like a swastika. Now when you say alien you seem to mean a grey that is here to give us anal probes.
Aren't all concepts man-made? What would be a religion that isn't man-made? What concept in anything isn't man-made? We can interpret natural occurrences, but the tools we use, the math, are all concepts invented by man. Our math is based on our fingers, our time on our sun.
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Yes that's what I think, it's possible that there are other life forms in some ways similar to us with a structured society and so on, but it's more likely that it's full of "other alien life forms" maybe so big or living in different dimensions or simply impossible for us to detect with our limited abilities, at least so far! :')
I was saying that religions are 100% man-made, I mean, all the holy book, everything is interpreted, written by humans, translated by humans and so on, while science isn't something debatable beyond a certain point.. one can't go against evidence :P of course we are improving day by day and we will keep on improving, while man-created books of 2 to 4000 years ago stays the same, for those indian, american, palestinian, chinese etc. societies and so on
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a grey that is here to give us anal probes
Hilariously accurate
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Stalin and it's NKVD executioners perpetrated the mass murder of Polish officers and soldiers at Katyń.
I devoutly believe that HaShem is our G*d and that HaShem is One.
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But ... unless I hugely missed some recent finding, the Katyn massacre being done by the Soviets is proved beyond any doubt , so there's nothing unknown or unexplainable, it's a (tragic) matter of fact.
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You're right of course, Lost but in recent times and with putin and the fsb in power in the USSR they want to deflect this massacre on the nazis as the real facts don't suit them.
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Ok, I understand your point, for a moment I just thought that I was missing some key info :)
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No, but unfortunately these are some of the situations dictatorships evolve to, denying the undeniable and trying to rewrite historic facts to suit their own agenda and purposes.
Have a nice and peaceful weekend, Lost! :D
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The victor writes history, you don't need to win a war to write the history, just an "election" :P
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If you need a war to write history then Israel would need plenty of bookshelf space to store that written history unlike the countries surrounding Israel. ;-)
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But the Bermuda Triangle is real. It just have a bad reputation.
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Go ahead. Laugh at me for what I believe in. I dn't really care.
Well, you are posting here.. so do you cares
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There was this time when I was in love with a girl, and I couldn't believe it was all "chemical reactions". That feeling is now gone, but I'm sure anyone who is or has been in love can attest to what I'm saying.
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Or where you 'in lust'?
Isn't love what is left after the initial wave of hormones ebbs away?
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Ah, well, maybe you're right. Even so, my point is the same. It's just too strong. What is love anyway?
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Came here to make a similar joke. Unless you mean it. Then oops.
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I don't think there is any good in mankind. The evidence is pretty clear. We are just a bunch of aggressive somewhat smart tribal monkeys.
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If there was no good in humanity, how could we conceive of the concept, or hold ourselves in contempt for lack of it?
Yes, as a whole, overall, as a species, we're not doing as well as we'd like. But we've at least got the benefit of realizing that that's the case, and at least a chance of creating life that's morally superior to us (though whether we ever will is highly speculative).
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Wish the media had the same belief. We'd get more balance and less sh*t
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There's a million unexplained things that have happened over centuries but the vast majority were probably fabrications just like all those YT videos that claims to show unexplainable things.
However, I've been listening to a lof of the Lore podcast lately (as well as reading H.P. Lovecraft) and I love the idea of long-lost tales and mysterious events.
Regarding what I believe in, I did a séance 20 years ago and I'll never forget it. It was absolutely freaky.
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I believe I can fly, just don't know how yet. And yes, that applies only to me, not all people.
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human spontaneous combustion is quite interesting.
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Everything is an unknown. Everyone just chooses to believe what is and isn't viable to be true either through their own logic or lack thereof.
Wow, I'm a huge killjoy, aren't I? XD
Generally I choose to believe in scientific "facts" (the interesting non-absurd ones) even thought I have to acknowledge that everything I know is at best third hand information. So while I don't believe in all the UFO stuff and find them ridiculous, I do think that it is statistically unlikely for there to be no other life in the universe or even "only" in our galaxy (Fermi Paradox notwithstanding).
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I have very controversial opinion about human soul. One part of me believes in its existence and another part of me understands that we're just biological organisms.
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I'm right there too. I don't believe in a soul as something separate from our biology (as in some entity floating away after the rest of us dies) and I know we are walking meat bags but I just can't reduce all we are, what we love, what we hate, our joys and our tears, to chemistry and electrical impulses so I'm on the fence and in an endless debate with myself
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It's far wiser, though, to admit that you don't know, rather than insist that you do. ;)
Also, I'm in the same boat.
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Agreed. Maybe it's just that I'm plagued with self doubt lol but I like to keep my mind open for things I don't know for sure and even though I have a few certainties about human beings, this is not one of them
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Self doubt in this context is quite a non-assumptious stance. You're in doubt because you feel you can't know for sure, whereas someone who is sure, is sure because he assumes and leaves no other option as an option.
About our mind/soul/awareness, I have an internal conflict about that with myself as well.
I'm inclined to think what we call our awareness is simply the result of internal reactions. Similar to how an ant colony acts for the colony, and not for the individual ant/cell or how a computer can interpret signals and act on it.
But yeah, it's hard to finalize anything in that regard. :D Not in the least part because we are inherently subjective.
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That's the way I see it too. I'm just open to any evidence of one side or the other. Assuming is fine when there is a logic to something and you can arrive to an opinion through reasoning and deductions but it doesn't work for everything.
An ant colony, that's an interesting perspective. I mean, fear, for example is nothing but a biological protective mechanism. But it can also become irrational and that's when it stops being abut biology for me so I'll keep wondering. Still, interesting point.
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There is no soul for me, just a complex recipe that makes me 'be'.
Okay, enough rhyming.
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I don't mean to sound edgy, really, but so far i've encountered over a dozen people that claimed to have been in contact with ghosts or deceased ones, so yeah, i might want to remain skeptical about paranormal stuff or whatever. If it was that common then we'd have way more proofs around.
That doesn't mean that there aren't any mysteries or weird unexplained stuff happening around us, but most of it can be scientifically explained, if not only for the self believing effect.
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I don't believe in ghosts either.
But I did come up with a bit of a conundrum a few months ago working at a party store on Halloween. If you don't believe in ghosts, and you come back as one when you die, does that mean you don't believe in yourself?
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Well, "believing" means you are claiming something without evidence, so ghost not believing in ghost is same as human not believing that humans exist - bat-shit crazy.
And when you're bat-shit crazy, you can believe in whatever you want, evidence be damned :)
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I'm quite skeptical about that.
I've had this experience where as a kid I saw some death head (in Tin Tin actually :D) like a skeleton head, and when the next morning I woke up and looked over my blanket, I saw that character/head sitting right on top of me.
So naturally I duck back under the blanket scared af, but I don't really believe that it was actually there, even though it probably was one of the biggest scares of my life. Just a projection of my own fear (or a way to handle it, who knows, I don't assume I know the reason why I saw it) or something like that. I mean, I know I did 'see' it, but that doesn't mean I 'believe' it, because I think it was just my brain tricking me. I remembered that as an example of how our perception might be inherently flawed.
Just felt like I had to share that given your set context. :)
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I fight people online trying to convince them that sasquatch is not real and they should stop looking for him because it's idiotic. The truth is that I am 100% convinced of the existence of this noble, elusive creature, and wish to protect it.
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I'm atheist and sceptical, but I tend to believe there is life elsewhere, and probably a lot, considering the billions of galaxies, each one with billions of stars. Though I'm sceptical about E.T's UFOs, but who knows.
I don't believe in anything paranormal. Though I've been confronted to a strange event two or three years ago. No alcoohol, no drugs, no whatever.
Me, sitting in my chair, on my computer. A baby cries like 10m away, probably on the road under the very bad soundproofed window in my bathroom. It gets closer, well that's normal, the mom/dad is walking towards my house. Closer, louder. Damn baby...
And it's starting to get ridiculously closer and louder, to the point it looks like the baby is not outside anymore, but inside. Closer, louder. I turn my head towards the sound (in my back, where the bathroom and the road under it are). At the exact moment I turn the head, the baby's cry stops.
Me, sceptical guy : "That was...strange. Bah, the baby must be just under the window and is annoyingly loud, and yes it stopped to cry right when I looked behind, but oh well, that's just a coincidence...", and went back to my computer.
Maybe five minutes later, baby's cry again, and seems close. And closer. And closer, to the point my sceptical ass freaked-out, got goosebumps and paralyzed. And closer, looks like the baby's less than a meter behind me. I turned my head again, spooked. And again, at this very exact moment, the cry stopped (and yes I know, it looks like all of the horror movies, when the thing disappears just when you look at it, how convenient).
I still don't know what happened, but I'm still sceptical about it. I need more than that to start to believe in ghosts or whatever. But yet, that was strange. No more baby freak since then by the way, hurray !
(I also have a little story coming from the dad to share if someone wants.)
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From the dad, when he worked on a construction site.
They were digging the foundations of a new house, and they dug up a skeleton. Well, it happens. They stopped to work, since they had to join the authorities. And then, one of their trucks (which was off) took fire without any specific reason. Off for a while (logical reason would be it started to burn during the digging because of a technical issue, but that's not the case, it wasn't used for it), so low chance for electric sparks, no gas on it or close, no smoke detected. Just took fire a few minutes/hours (I don't know about the exact time) after they dug up the skeleton. Insurance guys didn't find the cause.
No one has stories to share ? :(
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i believe in everything i can see, touch, smell and lick.
like pizza!
most other stuff plays in the same league as harry potter. it's bullshit for kids.
not that i mind. i don't as long as people don't bother me with it.
like jehovah's witnesses ringing you out of bed on a sunday morning at 8 am. kill'em with fire!
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The only thing I can't believe in is something other than marinara sauce on a pizza.
I try to keep an open mind to pretty much everything else, though. :3
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yes. only the 4 cheese can stand the comparison, but only if its done flawlessly.
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I believe in alternative dimensions/parallel worlds, but mostly because I want to keep the hope that some other version of myself out there isn't such a disapointment as I am.
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Man, you should not consider yourself as a disappointment. Have a virtual hug ⊂(￣▽￣)⊃
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Sitting here watching Ancient Aliens on History channel and I got to thinking (like I always do).
Do SG users here believe in the unknown and what do you believe in?
Things like extra terrestrial beings, the paranormal, the Bermuda Triangle, Atlantis, ETC.....
Personally, I admit to believing in UFO's since I swear I saw one as a kid. Also in the Bermuda Triangle and that Atlantis did, indeed, exist. After what I have read, there seems to be evidence supporting Atlantis's existence.
Anyone else here have their beliefs in the unknown and possibly unexplainable?
Go ahead. Laugh at me for what I believe in. I dn't really care.
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