What?
The majority of giveaways on here are games from the bundle list. Being bundled does not prevent people from giving away games, and users are fully rewarded for giving away bundled games as long as they also give away non-bundled games.
Also there is absolutely no way in hell that the amount of games that are bought with the intent to give them away on sites with similar rules to Steamgifts makes a remarkable impression in profits.
Comment has been collapsed.
Because it's not like their cheap/people buy and own them by themselves, right?
Sales due to them going to giveaways is their only source of revenue, yeah?
Comment has been collapsed.
That's because to a lot of people the games usually aren't worth buying at full price especially of they're not buying them for themselves. Which is why you really only see them given away while the bundle they're in is running. Being marked as bundle or not has little effect on that. It's the same reason you see floods of NON-bundle games when there is a sale on them, and when the sale ends the number of giveaways for them goes way down.
Comment has been collapsed.
POSTAL and POSTAL 2 were at their lowest price ever (Base price drop + 75% off), and with my filter off, I did not see many give aways for them in comparison to other similarly priced games. Not saying POSTAL is better or worse, just saying, it definitely shows that it was in a charity bundle before.
Comment has been collapsed.
I knew it wouldn't be popular, just I was getting tired of all the CV arguments, just wanted to say what it is like from the other side
Comment has been collapsed.
It's one of the many problems with the current CV system, I personally think the value should be based on how much people want the game (I think it's sad to see a flood of a rather bad game giveaway just because it's 90% off on steam, when there are a lot of better games on steam for the same price)
Of course the hard part is finding a way to evaluate a game's desirability, but even a not very good system could be better than the current system.
One simple system would be to look at the percentage of users that have the game in their wishlist (and that don't have it, because sometimes a game stays in the wishlist even though you added it to your library). One flaw of this system is games that are no longer on steam (like prey) and so can't be added to the wishlist.
Comment has been collapsed.
I can't speak for everyone but I don't give away games just for cv, and those on this site that only care about how random people on the internet look at their "charity" aren't the people you want promoting your games anyways as they only care about inflating their own ego.
Comment has been collapsed.
But it's the exact same product therefore they have the exact same value. The only person that a steamgift is more valuable to is a trader.
Comment has been collapsed.
Yes it should. Steam is not the only place to buy games.
Comment has been collapsed.
That's true, but currently it's impossible for Steamgifts to distinguish between a gift and a key
Comment has been collapsed.
Every bit helps though. Given your choice, both are 75% off, which are you likely to give away. Game A, which is worth full value, or Game B, which is worthless since you are capped. Assume you are someone that cares about CV because a lot of people do.
Comment has been collapsed.
I think you (and other developers) need to consider the impact being in a bundle is having your long-term sales, and the general perception of your game's value to players more than considering the impact being on the bundle list here is going to have. As others have pointed out, the number of sales lost by being on the bundle list is relatively small. Also, even if your game was not on the bundle list, if people see it up for giveaway many are going to think "bundle game" and thus, "not worthy". That doesn't describe everyone's reaction, but it describes many people.
Bundles make for some quick sales and perhaps popularity for your game, but I think in the long run they make your game seem less valuable. In fact, I know many people whose reaction to new indie games is, "I'll wait for it to be in a bundle." If you're an indie developer, especially a developer with games that have previously been in bundles, you have an image problem. The answer perhaps is to not bundle your products, or if you do, wait for a year or more to do it.
Comment has been collapsed.
I was going to write something similar but I will just piggyback Ceildric here.
I think you've jumped into conclusions too eagerly by claiming that a bundle list on this site would affect significatively the amount of sales your game is capable of making.
Comment has been collapsed.
how does having once been bundled affect the price for those who weren't around for that? If I wanted gish(bought aquaria from the same bundle for $5 a several months before it ended up bundled again lol) the fact that humble bundle had it in 2010 for 1/5 of a penny doesn't help me any(not to mention that the reason I hadn't heard of it before bundles was I heard of it through bundles) what'm i gonna do go get my time machine unless you lower your prices? its only on the trading side(which doesn't matter to the devs, the sale has been made. what it goes for after that is of no concern. somebody bought it, somebody who wanted it played it, no copies were made)
the only games I'd assume this site has a significant impact on sales are Fortix and to a slightly lesser extent badrats
Comment has been collapsed.
I'm not saying it's entirely logical (many things about human behavior is not), but it is something I have observed. There is a perception that once a game has been in a bundle for a certain price, it's kind of foolish to buy it for a higher price (unless you really really want it). This does not apply to everyone, but I've observed it in quite a few people.
I do think that the effect dissipates overtime though. A game that was in a bundle a year or two ago, especially if it's not available readily for sale on the trading market, will not be as affected as one that was in a bundle a few months ago.
Comment has been collapsed.
Actually I was thinking more for the smaller devs who use the Charity bundles as a way to kick off. They are shooting themselves in the foot badly due to the discrimination that others in this thread have pointed out. I was more commenting on the fact that only Indie games (and some price errors, but not all) get bundled, while big time published devs (like the devs behind Borderlands/Bioshock/Duke Nukem/Darkness 2, etc.) get away with having massive sales (Amazon Bundles) that are the equivalent (or more) in discounts as a BTA Humble Bundle Game and even massive price errors (Bethesda Softworks @ GG) without getting bundled.
Comment has been collapsed.
The lost potential sales are there, they are not worth much for trade value either after being in a bundle. Sites even unrelated to SG are impacted, because SG is actually pretty influential now. Do you trade for Bundle Game X for the sake of giving it away? No, it has no value. You trade for something else.
Comment has been collapsed.
"like Bethesda Softworks get away with having massive sales (Amazon Bundles) "
Erm, you may be thinking of Gamersgate Bethesda Bundle. Amazon Digital Games does not carry any Bethesda game whatsoever.
Comment has been collapsed.
You are right, I was thinking of the Borderlands/Bioshock/etc deals there. Fixed
Comment has been collapsed.
Regardless of other points for/against the argument (there are far too many unknowns for me to jump into all of that), I had no idea Postal 1 and 2 were 75% off. Perhaps you could have made a post at the time mentioning it? I'm guessing that may have increased sales. (Granted, hindsight 20/20 and all that.)
Comment has been collapsed.
That would be advertising, I deliberately waited until after the sale was over so I would not be accused of veiled advertisement. I also didn't specify the games or company in the OP for that reason. In hindsight, I should have updated my logo.
Comment has been collapsed.
Again, hindsight is 20/20, so I don't blame you for missing the opportunity, but for the future, SteamGifts does have this in the FAQ: "If you would like to include some self-promotion in the chat or forum, please run it by a mod first."
I'm guessing that it would probably have been fine coming directly from RWS (i.e. not veiled). I know one of the Arma guys has run plenty of giveaways and I think we're generally happy to have people working directly in the industry around here. Although, as a giveaway and not a forum post, I still wouldn't have been aware of it since it would have been filtered out through my already-owned games list.
Comment has been collapsed.
I doubt being on the bundle list for this one site will drastically affect your sales, you still see people giving away good games that are on the bundle list even if they won't get full contributor value for them, bastion is a good example of this. If the product is good people will still continue to giveaway the game simply because they enjoyed it so much. Even if you do lose some sales from being on the bundle list it won't be that many sales...around 460,000 gifts have been given on this site, the number is large but not that large considering the number of different games that can be given away, therefore I can just not see the loss of sales being that large of a number. I am sorry for your dilemma but it probably isn't affecting you guys all that much.
Comment has been collapsed.
Actually, it more of a plea for the smaller devs, which is why I didn't name a company.
Comment has been collapsed.
Those games were not given away before they were in a bundle,so whats the difference that they are not given away now? Besides,the good ones pop up now and then and ofc the ones that get high discounts. Ofc not in the numbers they pop up during the bundle time,but if you expect this you are delusional.
The moment a game gets bundled it is worth almost nothing. Not just for SG,for the gaming community. No one will buy a game for 5 or even 10 $ when it was in a bundle and you can get it much much cheaper because of that. You lose probably way more sales because of bundle key trading or "leftovers" trading than because of SG.
Also: When a game was bundled the will to give it away drops because simply "everyone has it anyways,lets do something new"
Finally: If I really really want a indie game I buy it as soon as I know about it. However,most bundle games are just "I grab it for a very low price"/"I take it cause it comes with something else"/"I totally dont care for that game"
Comment has been collapsed.
They were not on Steam before that is why it was never given before.
Comment has been collapsed.
you speak for generalities on some points and specifically postal on others if its about postal then the post about "is steamgifts anything near a signifigant portion of your sales" being answered with "i was speaking more for smaller devs where every sale counts even if its only a few" doesn't work.
if its about in general than "nobody was gifting it before either" "because postal wasn't on steam before" doesn't work.
besides postal is oold, how many giveaways were expected? its hardly the classic fallout was and even those giveaways are few and far between without having ever been bundled.
Comment has been collapsed.
Although this is the case for your games as well as a few other Greenlight titles, most of these games where virtually unknown before being bundled. People will share them from the bundle because they don't care about them or already had them.
Comment has been collapsed.
I'm with you on that. It's a shame that "bundle" label prevents from creating giveaways for great, one of the kind, games like Postal 2 (still have CDs somewhere but I would love to have Steam version too). Not only it prevents from new giveaways but devalues games itself.
Comment has been collapsed.
That is the point I was trying to make, thank you for the excellent summary!
Comment has been collapsed.
Then buy the game for yourself if you want the steam version,that would be a sale,too. If you think the game is worth it then go for it. The devaluation of a bundle game is subjective. The ones who won't buy the game for themself and just want more giveaways and the ones who just care for CV will always say the * makes the games worthless,while people who dont care for CV will always value the game for the game itself
Comment has been collapsed.
Sadly, most people likely don't just give for the warm fuzzy feelings of giving something away. They want something in return.
Comment has been collapsed.
There are those that give away to give away, but you can't deny there are those that care about their CV too. If they didn't care you would not see all the CV whiners, such as Just Cause getting listed over a price error.
Comment has been collapsed.
Why do you assume people give games away to receive something? I give away games that I have extra copies of or bought for the purpose of giving away not for a reward because that is counterintuitive to the point of "gifting".
To be completely honest here people don't buy your companies games a lot, because some people get offended by them or think they have bad taste. I am not one of those people but there are a lot of them.
Comment has been collapsed.
Actually, I wasn't speaking for my company, I didn't even mention it in the OP. Just talking about Charity and Indie devs in general. Only mentioned I worked in indie just so I didn't get seen as yet another CV whiner post. Just as a PSA for the other side of the coin. Indie bundles inflate CV values, so they are made worthless. Worthless Values impact giveaway quantities, not 100% reduction, but there is still a reduction. The really small time devs need the funding to grow, and getting kneecapped, even slightly, can be enough to prevent that.
Comment has been collapsed.
I know, but you said you were speaking from experience.
The bundle aspect is one of the many things an indie game dev has to think of when they are selling their game or need a boost of money. There are downsides and upsides to ever decision. It just depends on the state of the company.
Comment has been collapsed.
if you're that small the quick cash and huge boost in user numbers and anybody even knowing you exist is probably worth more to you anyway, but thats the sort of considerations they do before going into a bundle like that.
besides if thats an issue not getting marked is a bigger problem anyway. if the bundle list wasn't a thing and this website is as significant as you think than that would just mean more lost potential income because people who win it here don't buy it, and they would be winning tons of cheap copies from the bundle that cv boosters bought to gift here.
CV people don't buy a shit ton of charity bundles at $1 each because they know it isn't worth much cv or in trade. All that never asterisking them would do is make that a thing that happens. That would way offset any future full price purchases that may trickle in if not for the bundle list
i agree that bundle list has flaws and inconsistencies, but just existing isn't one, at least not from that perspective, at least the cv limit immediately around the bundle serves as a shield for the developers. i'd say it should eventually run out, but when? too soon and people'll just hoard up at the bundle and wait it out, too long and it hardly matters anymore as far as impact on small companies from game sales specifically for steamgifts.
I'd say if anybody's hoarding keys for a couple years thats plenty long enough to discourage mass abuse so why not let them and take it back off the list; personally. not that you'd care at that point
Comment has been collapsed.
I think that bundled games still need to give some value above the 20%. Something like 10 cents (just an example, the actual value could be based on the games bundle price) + 20% would at least give users some small benefit to giving away bundle games.
Comment has been collapsed.
Well so I took the time to look into some statistics.
Bastion You can appreciate a increasement of the amount of games being given away when it was bundled and when it was featured on the weekly sale. Throughout the rest of the time the amount of games being given away has remained somewhat consistant except to those small spikes I'm going to assume are from Steam Sales.
Limbo Here we can see how even if the amount of games being given away AFTER it was bundled was somehow lower than before (which could be also due to less people without the game, not precisely for it's bundlement. You know Post hoc ergo propter hoc and that) moreover there has been significantly amount of Limbo games being given away after that.
What do you think about this?
Also, well Postal2 is 10 years old. Hoping that it makes a significant revenue on a sale is well, naive.
Comment has been collapsed.
I am not arguing that a game will never be given away again once it gets bundled, but I am just saying it is less likely to be chosen to be given away by those that care about their values. The Bastion one coincides with when it was in a Humble Weekly bundle, practically nothing before then or after. Limbo I believe has been bundled a couple of times, but I could be wrong there.
Comment has been collapsed.
Sure. And you draw your conclusions basing yourself in which data exactly? You are just making things up and jumping to the conclusions you want instead of analizing why your hame is doing poorly.
Limbo it's being bundled ONCE. And your particularly nothing is still the same both after and before. So we could think that bundles do not affect giveaways. Another example SMB The biggest spike correlates to HIB V. The rest I suppose that are sales because it has never been bundled after again. And as you can see, the amount of games for a given period (excluding the bundle periods) is consistent and constant.
Comment has been collapsed.
Am I? :p
Also either good or not 10-year-old ones. One of those.
Comment has been collapsed.
Which game are we talking about then? I want to see its sales figures.
Also, please answer to my post. I've kinda developed why I think bundles do not make THAT big an impact.
Comment has been collapsed.
Yeah. There's a number of reasons that could affect why a game does well or not. Oversimplifying it to being bundled in a website which has 355,365 Members out of a community of 5,443,319 currently connected steam users which makes SG hold a ridiculous 6.52846177121% of the Steam community well. I'd like to say it's stupid, I will comptempt myself with saying it's naive.
Comment has been collapsed.
It has nothing to do with RWS, I was speaking as an Indie Dev, not as a RWS employee.
Comment has been collapsed.
I personally disagree. Being in the bundle list has no significant effect on game sales whatsoever. I buy a copy of Sol Survivor whenever it's on sale despite it being on the bundle list because it's a game that I enjoyed thoroughly and want others to enjoy too. If I'm not giving away Postal or Postal 2, it's because I don't deem these games good enough to share with others. I assume that's the general case with games that are on the bundle list.
Comment has been collapsed.
Well I'm sure most people would stop caring about CV if they had $20,359.01 already (especially the financial implications of being able to afford that many giveaways). But those of us who regularly see giveaways we can't enter have to think if we want to spend our limited money on a game that will give no CV at all or an equally priced game that will.
Comment has been collapsed.
That is one of the major things, those with huge values don't really care anymore and do give away for the sake of giving away, those with smaller values, are more likely to avoid bundled games.
Comment has been collapsed.
There are many users that didn't care about contribution values when they joined, even if there were contributor giveaways present, and they don't care about it now too.
Comment has been collapsed.
There were no contributor giveaways present when I started giving away games, and I never stopped since. I never cared about CV, and I never will.
If you're making giveaways in order to get CV, you're here for the wrong reasons, but I'm not one to tell you what's right or wrong.
Comment has been collapsed.
Sadly, in a perfect world, everyone would give away without the need of an incentive. The fact the incentive system is in place shows there was a need for it. If CV value truly doesn't matter, then why restrict any? The more a charity bundle gets abused, the more money the charity makes.
Comment has been collapsed.
The penny bundles are gone now. Indie bundles almost always cost $5-10 now. (other than the non BTA which is always $1 and doesn't always give much)
Comment has been collapsed.
I'm not the owner of the site, I can't answer questions on his behalf. If you have problems regarding the bundle system, you need to bring this issue up with the site administrator. Personally, I would abolish the CV system, but again, this is not my site.
Comment has been collapsed.
I know Crossbourne, you are a good sport. I don't have a problem with the system really, just hate that Big Devs get a "get out jail free" card most of the time, where indie are imprisoned without a trial. (I guess I am saying why do similar price pointed vs CV valued Big name games don't get added, where as the ones that need the funding more do get added.) (I know it is because the big names are more popular and draw people to the site better, people are more likely to get excited over a Skyrim flood than a Little Inferno flood)
Comment has been collapsed.
I'm sorry if I sound harsh, it's just that I hate these discussions regarding the bundle list and the contribution value, and have strong opinions against it, yet I understand why it was implemented. That's why I can't handle arguments against it well.
I don't agree that indie games are imprisoned without a trial, however, I believe that bundling kills them one way or another. I see bundling as a developer's "last resort" in getting some money out of his games, by "selling" his game for incredibly cheap, under the "guise" of charity. Looking at Indie Gala, if you consider their "Happy Hour" promotions, it's possible to get 20 bundles for about 20 bucks, which equate to around 15 cents per game. I personally wouldn't think of buying a game if it was sold at 15 cents before, and I again personally believe that bundling is what kills a game's sales.
Edit: Disregard the paragraph above, Kangarooster's link pretty much disproves my thoughts.
But on the other hand, I have bought plenty of bundles, sometimes up to hundred separate copies, and have done featured giveaways of them here too. Of course, you may again say that I am "financially more capable" to do such a thing, but I believe if you truly want to give something away, it being in the bundle list or not does not matter.
True, people are more likely to get excited over a Skyrim flood than a Little Inferno flood, but I'm more likely to give away Little Inferno than Skyrim. I understand that there are people who take CV as an incentive to make giveaways, but I believe that there are users out there who think like I do and prefer to give away indie games compared to AAA titles.
This might seem like me rambling, sorry if I wasn't able to convey my thoughts.
Comment has been collapsed.
Not harsh at all. Even before I worked for indie I was favouring indie. I bought from Subsoap all the games of theirs I gave away. I bought SotMC before it was bundled and gave it away. I was giving it away again, when it was suddenly bundled. I then cancelled the giveaway and dropped it randomly on a forum. I do that with any bundled game now, if no one I know wants it, I drop it on the forum rather than going to the bother of running a giveaway. Laziness there though, not a sign of contempt for the system. Anyway, I think this thread has run its course. Thank you very much for your input.
Comment has been collapsed.
I'm not wealthy, until steam cards came out I had only ever bought maybe 3 steam games for myself outside of humble bundles/tremor games. Now with steam cards I can afford a few giveaways, but each one takes away from my ability to buy games I've been wanting to play for years. So yes I do care about CV when creating a giveaway, I'll still do bundle giveaways if I get duplicates from a bundle but until I actually have a decent paying job I'm going to make every giveaway count.
Comment has been collapsed.
I'm not wealthy too, you just assume that I'm wealthy because you think that the value I have on my profile represents my financial capabilities.
Regardless, again, if you care about CV when creating a giveaway, then you're doing it for the wrong reasons. Contributor giveaways were not present when this site was created, and you are not supposed to expect anything in return while making giveaways. But just because I don't agree with your views doesn't mean that I can tell you what to do. If you want to make giveaways solely to gain CV, that's what you'll do.
Comment has been collapsed.
well, in an opossite face of that coin...
like you, i didn't bought too many games outside of bundles, some on sale, another trading for TF2 items...
now, with the cards i managed to get some money, so i bought some games for me, and a couple to giveaway (like these two, and the TL2 copy for the chalenge... yeah, they where cheap as hell, but it's something :P)...
in my case, i don't care about CV, and i giveaway, let's say "for free" my bundle dups keys, droping them on the forums, or giving it to random people...
so, nothing is absolute...
Comment has been collapsed.
It has nothing to do with POSTAL 1 or 2, I wish people would stop bringing them up.
Comment has been collapsed.
Your post implies Postal. Considering that you're the only person that complained about this so far, despite the numerous developer and featured giveaways we had, I assume it's not a general problem but a specific one regarding your company and your game.
Comment has been collapsed.
Nah, we are doing fine enough despite the dust. If every other Indie game other than POSTAL 1/2 got delisted, I would be just as happy.
Comment has been collapsed.
As someone pointed out in this very thread "I'll wait for it to be bundled" is common for indie games, so I suppose you could say that too lol.... I am guilty of that, but that is mostly because of my backlog.
Comment has been collapsed.
I feel like bundles, other than Humble, are a bad idea for good indie games.
But I would bet bundles are similar or better income than just long tail and sales for mediocre indie games.
Getting into a Humble Bundle won't kill your indie game. All the money makes up for it. One of the other bundles, I'm not so sure...
Comment has been collapsed.
Indie Gala 2 was a long time ago in bundle years. And I think it was good bet for resurrecting a 15-year old game that didn't have any digital distribution platform at the time.
Giving Steam keys was doing a solid for the fans. But it looks like it bit them on the ass with regard to SteamGifts.
Comment has been collapsed.
92 Comments - Last post 11 minutes ago by Foxhack
24 Comments - Last post 28 minutes ago by RePlayBe
8,449 Comments - Last post 49 minutes ago by VicViperV
413 Comments - Last post 1 hour ago by MeguminShiro
33 Comments - Last post 2 hours ago by Kabirbd
15,377 Comments - Last post 3 hours ago by Soufant
89 Comments - Last post 4 hours ago by Chris76de
749 Comments - Last post 5 minutes ago by Bydydyndi
68 Comments - Last post 6 minutes ago by CakeGremlin
141 Comments - Last post 7 minutes ago by ConanOLion
140 Comments - Last post 9 minutes ago by freshduke
57 Comments - Last post 1 hour ago by aysil
256 Comments - Last post 1 hour ago by Sergiio
63 Comments - Last post 1 hour ago by Myrsan
I originally made this post for another thread, but figured I would make it have its own thread.
I work for an Indie Dev, and it hurts us when sites like this don't reward their members for giving away our games since we get less screen time just because we had a charity sale in the past. We also decided to give Steam keys to those that had supported us in the past, and suddenly we are branded and no longer really worthy of giving away. There was no way to know to exploit it at the time when our games were in the charity sale due to the games not even being on Steam or Greenlight at the time. The Steam keys were given as a perk to those that owned the game on Desura as Steam is the more popular platform, and we didn't want the fans to have regrets for not waiting for Steam or to have to rebuy it again. It really is discouraging to get punished for giving back to our fans. Had our games not been listed, and therefore have less value to the members of SG, we likely would have more sales. Hurt sales impacts development for indie since the sales money directly funds development and overhead. There is no publisher's money backing it. This would likely apply to any Indie developer, especially those using the bundles to get their name out there.
Comment has been collapsed.