Even if there's sexism... most of them are on ("skill"-enhancing) drugs anyway. So you can't blame or sentence them.
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I've also heard eating sweet potatoes all the day will make you very fast! VERY FAST!
(At least for the next 7-10 years, when - in the end - they'll discover your doping technique)
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Well everyone who thinks there is sexism in Esport games is wrong. Even if there is sexism it's against guys. Lets say the best pro teams earn 5000 euro per month (not accurate at all but just for example) and the best female team earns 1000 euro a month. You might say this is sexism but really it's not the male teams generate much more revenue and publicity. In reality those best female teams are like the same level as tier 3 male teams, and these teams get no monthly income at all or for example 500 euro per month. Alot of tournaments also have no rule against female teams entering tournaments where only males attend, but in reality the girls aren't as good and simply don't stand a chance.
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Quote from CSGO-Talking-Head: https://twitter.com/Thooorin/status/801196522209771520
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Ah Thorin, Good man. Hadn't seen that one but that's basically what I said so ;D
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I would be delighted to see woman playing together with men in the same tournaments, in top teams, and performing equally well. And then it would be obvious if salaries are just.
And commenter I like to hear the most in CSGO is Lauren Scott. Not because she's a woman, but because her style fits me best.
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I absolutely hated her back in the days, now she's a bit better but still annoying in my opinion. Anders and Semmler are the best commentators in my opinion, they know alot about the game and get you hyped up really good. Haven't watched any tournaments in a while though. Females and Males used to play together around 2 years ago, but the females simply didn't stand a chance. Here is an old video from Titan vs an Female team. Well let's just say they didn't stand a chance.
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False facts and twisted quotes? What else would you expect from the main stream media? They have an agenda and their articles will be made to fit that agenda or they won't be posted. The main stream media no longer reports news, instead they report lies to mold the opinions of the masses to fit the agenda of the elite that control them.
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Let's grant that this is a slapdash article with little context and sloppy reporting. Your post, though, doesn't seem to be addressing the fact that the issue is a real one. It's one thing to point out that the BBC did a poor job of getting to the bottom of it. But the reply article you link to states the bottom line here well: "[T]he actual issue is a serious one and one I don’t want to make light of. It’s a complex issue, gender division in esports, and should be treated as such."
The framing of your post, your general discussion, and your poll in particular all contribute to the perception that if one explanation for a problem isn't valid, then there's no problem.
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Agreed. But the reality of confirmation bias guarantees that the takeaway for a lot of people who see this post will be "there's no sexism in eSports" instead of the tiny point that "there's not a problem with prize money in eSports stemming from sexism." Does that make sense?
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Well I'll be honest, at first CS:GO males and females teams did compete against each other and sometimes they still do but they simply don't chance a change, especially tier 1 females against tier 1 males, they just get completely rekted and they're lucky if they get 1 round on the board (and if they do it's mostly because the male teams are just messing around). And if they play againts Tier 3 male teams they still lose! That's why there aren't any mixed tournaments, female teams can't compete against male teams and even if they were to compete in the qualifiers they get knocked out there, because they simply don't stand a chance. Here is a match between a male and female team 2 years ago.
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Well the following that I'm going to say is about the CS:GO E-sport scene because that's where I know the most from. You have to understand that these teams don't get randomly created. Alot of the players are friends IRL and have been playing together for years. Sometimes the organisation swaps players around too. And it's true that the males are better than the females, especially in CS:GO the males just rekt the females 99% of the times. I can only remember 1 1v1 tournament where a female did quite well, but she was shut down afterwards by KennyS. I know mixed teams might sound a good idea to you, but if the teams get weakened by it they aren't going to do it. Also any female team can attend the big CS:GO tournaments if they want, they just have to qualify for a tournament, win that tournament, then they have to play with 15 other teams in the qualifiers and the top 8 of those teams get to the tournament. I've never seen a female team in the qualifiers though and I've been watching since Katowice 2014 (Early 2014). And again alot of these players have been playing together casually and professionally for years, some even 10+ years! Complete teams have been build around players because they all know their play styles and they're comfortable around each other.
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I'd say they get paid according to their perfomance.. If one player/team is famous enough and can fill an arena it's obvious that they'll earn more money than someone who doesn't even appear on LAN tournaments..
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You see what's wrong here, is that... it's okay to write an article about an issue in the gaming scene. And it's okay even if I don't fully agree with the article, BUT ONLY IF IT'S FUCKING ACCURATE OR MAKE A BIT OF SENSE rather than looking like someone ate a keyboard's keys, shit them out and typed what it said.
For fuck's sake, this is just such a bad, unprofessional article. I'd agree with whatever point they were trying to get across, if it weren't for the simple fact that every single one of the statistics and "facts" published here are half-assed bullshit. This is disappointing of BBC. Whoever let that article get the greenlight needs to get some better quality control.
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I've once followed Misfit Remilia who had been qualified for LCS in NA, as a female League player in almost male team. She plays quite good. It's clear to say she played a big role when her team went to top tier series. But she suddenly stepped down after a few plays in LCS, saying she got harassed by her teammates and such. That was sad.
Some part of what BBC said about discrimination would be true. But more important point is that almost none of the physical sports can be played gender-freely in competitive scenes. Esports have possibility to become one, which is a huge positive potential for this area.
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maybe they put all men playing dota/csgo/lol on one side and women in another, then compared the total earnings/prizes they got...
# feminists
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I'm not even going to read the article, the BBC is garbage in my eyes... That being said, I really wish all this crap about the wage gap, pink tax, etc etc, would just come to an end. As for sexism in gaming... I've had guys threaten to kill me, rape me, ask to suck my dick (and vice versa), and all sorts of stupid shit. I've also had girls flirt with me, or hit on me, and other crap as well (including stuff to the degree of guys)... The way I see it, sexism in gaming doesn't exist, it's just people trying to get under your skin, or get something from you, that's it.
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That's the problem in my eyes... Everyone seems to think it's how a message is received that's important. People get so triggered over words that they can often misinterpret the intended meaning even in harmless debate or conversation, instead of trying to remain calm, and level headed so they can seek clarity. But even then, in the case of rude or insulting comments or conversations, people need to relax. Words only have the power we allow them to have, and these days, everyone makes themselves an easy victim by giving them too much power (go ahead and call me a victim blamer if you want, since it's quite possible that's how you'll "interpret it"). Growing up, we had this lovely saying "sticks and stones may break my bones, but words will never hurt me" for a reason. The world is full of ignorant people (although they're still a minority), and people need to learn to rise above them instead of being a victim. Humiliate them, put them in their place, or just ignore them and leave the situation, it doesn't matter... Just don't allow yourself to be victimized by words, or you fuel the fire that keeps them doing what they do.
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+1 - there is little ruder and insulting than being told by some ass hat on a game that they are going to come and find you and rape you - especially if it is just cause they got shot by someone they perceive to be a girl - don't know anything about the pay thing, but we would just love to play a multiplayer game without being subjected to racial or sexually explicit comments - all tied up with they tired platitude that it is just locker room banter among gamers - no, it is just plain rude behaviour that I taught my child to never do and, having watched them (without them knowing of course :), am glad to see that they don't do it - just wish others could control their mouth in a similar manner :) (but, of course, when people complain about this behaviour, the people who exhibit this behaviour just say that people are being too thin skinned !).
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All people may be affected by words, but not all are victimized by them. If people don't want to be victimized, they need to put others in their place, or leave the situation. Don't get me wrong, I dislike the behavior of many online communities, but an individuals feelings should not govern peoples freedom to be who they are, and how they act (so long as that behavior does not pose a threat to ones existence). In the event situations escalate to a point where they can be deemed a viable threat to ones safety, then yes, people should be punished, but until that point is reached, people need to learn to deal with it. Honestly, I'd love if everyone could behave in a proper manner and display sportsmanship, but achieving that goal at the expense of violating freedoms is not a good thing.
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so you consider threats of rape as people being free to be who they are! oh boy!; and expecting people to show basic respect and courtesy online is not violating their freedoms in any way in my opinion, it is something that I would hope would be taught when they are growing up as being expected in a free society - being polite costs people nothing - threats of rape cause they got shot by someone in a game costs self respect - again in my opinion ! - but I have come to learn that many do not see it that way, and many have little control over their mouths it appears :P - In this scenairo, women should never have to leave the situation in order to solve this specific problem, when is such a simple issue for others to simply be polite and exercise some self control; it is not about curtailing freedom of speech, it is about showing civility in a civil society.
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As I said...
"In the event situations escalate to a point where they can be deemed a viable threat to ones safety, then yes, people should be punished, but until that point is reached, people need to learn to deal with it."
Fact is, the majority of people threatening rape and murder in games are children or idiots who pose no actual threat, and aren't sexist or the likes, but rather retarded. Running around crying victim over it is just as retarded. If someone encounters people like this, simply report them and move on. It's not that difficult. Civility may be desired, but you can't enforce it without limitations that would damage freedom of speech because hate speech and insults/rudeness are based on how dialog is received, and just about anything can be received in a negative light (as this post may be due to the usage of the word retarded). Thus regulating things based on feelings is an issue.
Edit: Just to clarify in case though... No I don't condone rape or death threats. Honestly, I'd deck the people who make them if it were possible through a computer. My views aren't based simply on those remarks however. I've seen too often how enforcing behavior can become an issue. Like once at work, a female co-worker got in trouble for sexual harassment because she shared a funny comic strip (Below).
This is what happens when things are regulated based on individual emotions, even the little things which are harmless become wrong, and it takes away from peoples freedom. Pic may be NSFW, depending on how things are enforced.
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The Canadian Charter of Rights and Freedoms
- freedom of thought, belief, opinion and expression
The Bill of Rights (U.S.A)
- The right to express your ideas and opinions when you speak is called freedom of speech. Freedom of speech also means the right to listen to the thoughts and opinions of others. This freedom guarantees that Americans are free to express their thoughts and ideas about anything. They may talk freely to their friends and neighbours or speak in public to a group of people. Of course, no one may use his freedom of speech to injure others. If a person knowingly says things that are false about another, he may be sued in court by the person or persons who believe they have been harmed by what he said.
By harm others, they do not mean hurt their feeling, but rather Defamation of Character which is protected under Tort Law. As for the sexist debate, it's all based on interpretation. It should not be based on assumptions of implications and intentions.
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trying to justify asshat and rude behaviour under the guise of freedom of speech laws is a fallacy, obtuse behaviour is still just that, nothing more, nothing less; I was taught as a child that such behaviour is against common decency, and I passed this fact onto our children - I would like to think others feel that common decency is something that our children should be taught, but I am under no illusion that this is apparently no longer the case.
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Freedom of speech wouldn't exist if speech was censored. That being said, I'm not trying to justify asshat and rude behavior (I've been trying to tell people how they should deal with it), as I've said numerous times now, I don't condone that behavior. I'm simply standing up for the principles of free speech, as I know the moment it begins to get censored, it will just continue to get censored. Assholes will always find new methods of being assholes within the boundaries of legality, and people will continue to be offended, thus leading to further censorship, it's an inevitability. But on that note, I'm just going to stop bothering, because clearly none of you can understand where I'm coming from, and just want to continue assuming things about me (talk about decency), so clearly this is a wasted effort.
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I agree with free speech - but in my opinion you are conflating this with simple rude and abusive behaviour - which I was taught was unacceptable in a free and civil society - the ability to moderate ones behaviour is open to all people (note all), and to ask one side only, in this case females being told to deal with it or leave, is in itself, based on your argument, curtailing the freedoms of one section of society against the other (the male side in this argument could simply choose to stop such vulgar behaviour) - also self censorship is not society/state censorship - I am perfectly able to not shout down a team speak line that I am going to rape someone violently because they shot me; why is the other side not also capable of that in your argument?
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My opinions and arguments were not directed at females, they were directed at everyone. Males are also not the sole perpetrators of this rude and abusive behavior either. I'm also not conflating anything, you're just not understanding the points I'm trying to make. It's possible the misunderstanding is on me, I don't know, but everyone I know personally gets what I mean when I say stuff. Also, I've never threatened to rape or kill someone online either. In fact, I rarely play online games these days because I'm tired of the stupidity and ignorance of people. I've never personally taken offense to it, I just grew tired of dealing with it, so I removed myself, simple solution. Lastly, asking why other people aren't capable of being polite, respectful, etc etc... Is like asking why some people snort cocaine, knowing full well it could kill them. People do stupid things, nobody can say they never have, some people learn, but some people just don't care, and nothing will ever change that.
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I agree - but if I am capable of not undertaking such behaviour - wouldn't you agree that they are also capable of not conducting themselves in such a manner - and thus no ones freedom is impacted upon; because we are both capable of doing the same thing - it is just that some people choose not to :) - both sides can equally do things to alter the state of play, simply removing onself retains the status quo and solves nothing - well other than perhaps helping to preserve our own sanity in such situations :)
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Would be nice, and you'd think everyone would be capable but... It seems that's not the case.
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yeah that is so very true, go figure eh :), I guess sometimes we have to just roll with it, I just wish it wasn't so prevalent and mainstream - but nevermind, at least we can find other things to amuse us in the interim ::)
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I have a few moments to do a better reply now, so here goes. First off, I don't agree with the limitations imposed in some regions for the simple fact it's a complete contradiction to the freedoms given. That being said, I don't care either way though, it's not like I'm threatening to rape or kill people. Second, these rules aren't in play across the board, so enforcing them online becomes a grey area since many people may live in areas that don't enforce these laws, so how can they be punished? Lastly, my main argument isn't about regional exceptions, it's about free speech as a whole. As I've said, imposing limitations on speech will merely have ignorant people altering their methods of being assholes. Then what? More rules against new speech? Okay, they'll alter their methods again... Then what? See where I'm going? Where does the line get drawn when there is literally no limitation on ways people can be rude and offensive? The words themselves, the phrases spoken, are not the problem. The problem is how they're presented, and even more so, how they're received, thus there will always be people wanting to censor further and further as a result of being offended.
Now tell me, do you think this boy deserved to be imprisoned?
http://www.cnn.com/2013/07/02/tech/social-media/facebook-threat-carter/
His joke was distasteful, but it was purely sarcasm (and the article leaves out the fact he said lol, jk initially). However his intent was of no importance, the method in which it was presented, which was clearly sarcasm didn't matter. All that mattered, was how people perceived it, and in a world where perception governs law, we're all at risk.
Edit: Taking that article and situation into account. Imagine a hypothetical situation now, you're playing CoD online with some mates, one on the other teams kills you, and you respond (in a joking matter because they're a friend) "You're so dead man, I'm gonna butcher you, just wait bro, just wait". Now imagine getting reported for that by a random stranger who isn't aware it's friendly joking, being tracked down by police, arrested and put on trial.
Edit 2: Also note I have previously stated... "In the event situations escalate to a point where they can be deemed a viable threat to ones safety, then yes, people should be punished"
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That's your opinion, just as I'm sharing my opinions, but currently my opinions are the ones that govern laws. Feelings are not protected by law.
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Which goes back to my previous statement.
"If someone encounters people like this, simply report them and move on."
If the company doesn't uphold their own rules and provide the service you want... Don't support their product. If you're going to continue using their product, not report people, and then complain nothing gets fixed, well...
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Well, the mute button is still there and voilá, problem solved. Even in the same game, muting someone is just like how you just don't talk to someone who you feel unworthy/stupid while you still have to be in the room. There are jerks in the everyday life, or on the internet, but why just stay there and be insulted? Talk back, mute them, report them. So many other solutions than complaining on forums that people are rude .
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I agree partially with the sentiment, but this is entrenched behaviour that I was taught is unacceptable in a civil society - and expecting people to use a mute button (I assume you mean mute those who are doing the vebal abuse, and not turn the sound off your in game and lose the immersive aspect of gaming?), does nothing to alter their behaviour.
As for the talk back, that somewhat goes against the muting part of your comment, and the reporting them is a joke I assume - as we have tried this, I spent many years doing so, and it falls on deaf ears :). It should be noted here, that I am more talking about expecting common decency from others, rather expecting enforcment of this (that is unlikely to happen).
The overall point is, that in an area that can have as many female players (and according to some statistics this is the case in America), as male players, why is it that the female players are often told to modify their behaviour, by turning off the sound, reporting, or simply leaving the game as they clearly have thin skin, but male players are not simply told to stop being crass ass hats :)
It would be just as easy for them to stop this behaviour, but they are never told to do so, instead it is the female players who are expected to just put up with the rape threats, or move on!
I was always taught to treat others as you expect to be treated, with respect, and if that is not possible, then with a deafening silence. It is just a shame that some others, and I appreciate it is a solid core of adults, who are still behaving like children, do not share such traits.
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It would be just as easy for them to stop this behaviour, but they are never told to do so, instead it is the female players who are expected to just put up with the rape threats, or move on!
There is one simple reason for that. You can not convince stupid that they are stupid, especially through internet and (text) chat. It's easier to tell the reasonable side (be the victim or not) to ignore it, simply because they listen.
Btw I haven't started from females and rape threats. I was also told numerous times that I'm bad, kill myself and such. And yet I can just mute it, and move on... *shrugs*
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thus retaining the status quo, and accepting, and even condoning, the behaviour by default - trust me, I tend to ignore it as well - but that doesn't make it right, and doing nothing only perpetuates the belief in some peoples minds, perhaps those that are too stupid to know any different, that this is acceptable behaviour after all :)
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Yes, I know it's not good, but what else can one do? I can't recondition a generation ( or some adults) who had problematic / shitty upbringing, and think that it's okay to randomly insult people on the internet. There are people out there who still believe that the Earth if flat and can't accept scientific facts that prove them otherwise, but we should tell teens (who, unlike previous generations, can spit shit on the whole world through the internet instead of just their local area :D) that people get hurt by their words? I just feel that it's literally impossible, not to mention about "proper" adults who are just dicks :\ Definitely shouldn't ignore the whole problem, but I feel like there's two ways of it - either change the problematic source, or minimize the harm. I still feel like while it's easy to talk about how bad it is, we can't change half of the world that's usually rude because they feel ignored / they just like it that way, because if they ignore everything and therefore rude about them, they'll just ignore anyone telling them that they are rude. I
don't mean this as a mocking, but for me this feels like going to look for bears with a huge sign of "bears do hurt people" - there's visibility, but they still just go there and ... get victimized? As a parallel to online things, I mean people who just complain being harassed and still refuse to leave the place / mute the people who do it (it's also known that ignoring the bullies makes them go away). One can fight a concept they don't like without going head-on against it, especially if it causes harm to them. One can just mute annoying pricks, but in the meanwhile have normal conversations on other forums (forum now as platform, even be it newspaper, tv, online forum, friends) about how bad it is STILL, and change it for the future.
It's a little like environment protection - we know the problem, but we can't reduce CO2 output and energy usage from one day to another in every factory in every city in every country, but we can push forward to that direction, facing that the current problem is not solvable instantly, but still addressing it as a problem. The problem with these harassment and behaviour problems that people demand immediate change, and that just won't happen with multiple (ten?hundred?)millions of problematic players
TLDR: In my opinion, and about general harassment in my online gaming as well: put up with the present's shit and push it for a change for the better, for the future.
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the bear can't alter their situation - we can - it is just that some of the ass hats playing these games choose not to, and subsequently I end up trawling through their ill thought out vitreol - not sure about the C02 thing - I was always taught to start as you mean to go on in life - meaning just don't behave like this in the first place and then there will be no need to alter things - but it appears, based on my experience, that I am in the minority on this train of thought :)
but I agree with the TLDR in spirit here :) - thanks for the debate by the way, much appreciated - shame other people don't allow for conversations like this, they simply BL me it appears :) sigh
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Good luck with that. People are generally stupid and stubborn, telling them that they hurt others won't make much change in the majority of cases.
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Your capslock offends me.
Where's the SG Bully Patrol when I need them? ;_;
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That's a good approach. While they don't *really* need to actively do something against it, at least they could openly talk about and tell how bad it is. In League of Legends the developer Riot Games made an announcement about if you play with people who kinda suck in their roles, add them after the game and offer to play with them private to teach them. 80-90% of the playerbase would either flip out by this, or just report the offering player for treating the other as a lesser player, because - it's hard to decide if there's seriously good intentions or malice behind it. I can recall a time or two when people were actually thankful for help or guidelines, but in another case a teammate got into a situation: get a lot of damage and very-very likely a debuff, or run away, less damage and the same debuff for sure. And he stayed there, and after I told him how the ability used on him worked, the response was " I know how to play, stfu" and proceeded to die for similar mistakes. :D so yeah, I wrote too much. Problem is - and actually youtubers and streamers were laughing at the developer - that they are so disconnected from the playerbase that they don't even notice that there's a problem with it.
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Yeap, people just don't want to hear they suck, lol.
Which is too bad, because the first step to getting better is to accept that you're bad. Most people don't, and remain bad. Which brews frustration - it's a vicious circle.
In League of Legends, I wanted to get myself out of there, so I personally contacted a top player, introduced myself, told him I was bad, but was open to all criticism. What ensued were months of playing with his team and being yelled at, while swallowing my pride and listening to all the corrections.
Eventually I became a top player, and suddenly I was playing in such a mellow environment, where people just joked around, encouraged one another, didn't blame the teammate harshly. It's like everyone knew what they had gone through to get to that point, and there was mutual respect. How glorious it was to play League then.
But the majority of the players seem like they'd rather drag everyone down than help each other and enjoy the game while getting better. Gamer's mentality, maybe ;/
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Even after years, I still feel that there's so much to learn. Mostly because I had enough of the ragequiters in rankeds, so I play just loaads of arams. It was useful, in a way that aiming, teamfight focus and such is something I do extremely well, I just suck a lot when it comes for in-lane trades. Problem is that in last season when I tried to get qualified, I lost 8/10 games, and in a part of it having 4 afk players in 7 matches, 3 times they were adc. I was playing support, and it just ruined everything. I know I have the skill to get further up in leagues, but I'm really not sure if I can take the bullshit while trying to do so :\
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Well the 'women get paid 30% less than men for the same work' is already false, so doesn't surprise me that they spread more crap.
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I suppose this was meant as a 'It's actually true!!'
These studies don't take into consideration the different choices people make, like amount of hours worked, overtime, holiday, etc. When women 'earn less' than men, for the same job, with the same experience, qualifications etc. it comes down to choices, not discrimination.
Sorry.
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The problem is media outlets constantly shoveling false information down peoples throats, and they just swallow it. I'd like to hope in time people will actually look at the statistics, and see that it's basing this myth on total earnings as appose to actual pay rates, but... At the same time I question if it will ever happen since so many people seem to care more about equal outcome than actual equality. Wish I could find the actual study I read again, but google searches only find articles now. Really in the end of it all, when the study was controlled (basing results on individuals within the same career, seniority, etc), there is actually only a 2% difference between men and women in terms of pay equality, which I'm sure many would still rage about. However, they need to take many factors into account (which were not considered in the studies), like the fact men work more on average, so it's more likely for them to get a raise for their dedication and time. Or the fact women are less likely to negotiate pay rates, or ask for a raise, and so on...
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I thought the teams could be mixed, I don't even care about e-sports, so if something clarifies me could be great.
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Well, if we say sexism regarding the prize money is a non-issue, that leaves what? Insults and harassment?
I think gamers of both genders get insulted pretty equally, it's just that A: Guys don't make an issue out of it, because they know it's just hot air with no agenda beyond being a troll to get a rise out of you, and B: The more the person insulting you knows about you, the better they can tailor their insults to hit as close to home as possible. If they know your race, that means racial insults. If they know your locality, that means insulting your state/country.
If they know you're female, that means gendered insults. It's a no-brainer, and means just as little as the other kinds of insults. Is it nice? No, but it has as much to do with them genuinely hating women as it does them genuinely hating your mother when they insult her. >_>
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honestly sexism as a term has lost its meaning when feminist started twisting that word for everything that somehow offends them.
TL;DR: everything is sexist and discriminative and the world is about to end, and Trump is the antichrist
if you couldnt tell, that was sarcasm btw.
the poll should have an option of "I dont care about clickbait articles"
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sarcasm is something I love - but to just add, possibly without sarcasm (hey who knows), feminism as a term has so many iterations now that we have long since given up trying to understand what it now means, versus what it used to mean :) - don't get me started on politics, that is a whole different level of ass hattery - :0P
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Men are better gamers, deal with it.
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Maybe if they played like a man they'd earn more.
( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
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This looks like the 'cool' topic to write about nowadays.
The earning for the top male player in e-sports amounts to over $2,500,000 while the top female earnings are less than $200,000
Okay, cool? Why nitpick at THE 'top player'? He's probably just way better than not only the female players, but the other male players as well.
If I was as good as this guy, I would make a lot of money too. Skill is what's most profitable.
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Not quite. Skill is only second at best. Popularity is what's most profitable. Although one can say that a high skill will help gaining popularity especially comparing for the same kind of sport. Still if you look at physical sports there are a lot of skilled players and athletes which sometimes don't even earn enough to live from it because their sport isn't popular.
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