They do say that the keys are for "personal use only", so giving them away is not encouraged even if you do already have a game in the bundle. The reasoning behind this is that if you keep the keys for yourself, then whoever else wants the game will just have to buy the bundle to get it, and that means more money for the developers, charities and the humble bundle people.
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Assuming you're wondering if people (or yourself) are allowed to give them away on SG...
The legal contract of the terms of service are binding of HIB and the games you purchase. SG holds no legal ground to enforce your agreement with HIB's TOS on what ever you do. You are however, bound by SG's TOS when you use this site (SG). These are two different legal contracts you hold with each of them.
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I know but i don't want to screw a charity by exploiting their TOS
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Their TOS forbid giving the keys to other people in legal terms. When I contacted HIB support by mail with an explicit question whether or not they allow it, they clearly said that giving keys away is not allowed.
(So yeah, basically all of those people are breaking the HIB rules and the SteamGifts guideline telling them not to do that. My "Report Giveaway" button is getting tired. If only it were on the same place on each page, as I Ctrl+Tab through them. But nooo, it always has to be at a different position. :-p)
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I just read the important parts of their TOS and couldn't find any passages that explicitely disallow giving away parts of the bundle. Since i'm a european, such a passage wouldn't be valid either, so i decided to give it away
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The "legalese" for this is the part about "their personal, non-commercial use". Once someone other than you uses it, it's definitely not your personal use.
Of course, it may not be legally binding; most promises people make are not. That's why people who do this can't be imprisoned or fined for it. Admins of various sites, such as SG, are however free to ban them if that's against that site's code of conduct.
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You're wrong. "Commercial" use indicates that you purchase with the intent of reselling, and what he is doing is considered philanthropy. If that was the case, none of your giveaways are considered "personal" and by the Steam TOS you would be a pirate, too. So would everyone here if you consider what he's doing buying with the intent to profit.
Are you mentally handicapped? You are taking this too personally. Don't ruin this entire site with your idiocy.
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Of course, but that is hardly the point. I never said any such use was "commercial".
What I said was that such use was not "their personal", because it is not thier person who is doing the using. I also did not label such act as "piracy" per se, but as a "breach of a non-legally binding contract", or, if you will, "breaking a promise".
Please try hard not to call people "mentally handicapped", "asshole", "anal douchebag", or accuse them of "idiocy". Thank you.
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Gifting it without receiving anything in return is definitely personal use
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And will the winner, who will -- due to technical limitations of SteamGifts -- be most certainly a different person than the gifter, promise to never use the game (because that would not be "the buyer's personal use", but "the winner's personal use")? In such a case, the winner would be forced to not activate (or otherwise use) the key, and ultimately get banned from SteamGifts for not activating it. Does the gifter want something like that to happen to the winner? That would be mean, wouldn't it?
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That's not what i meant. Gifting something without the intention to get anything in return is by any means a personal use. The opposite would be a commercial use, where the gifter has to be some kind of commercial institution that expects certain financial or marketing benefits from this process. This is absolutely not the case
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Gifting something without the intention to get anything in return is by any means a personal use.
Of course. But at the very moment it leaves your hands, any usage of the thing would have to stop.
You seem to see "your personal" and "commercial" as opposites, but they're not. There are two completely different requirements in the TOS. The first says that only you personally can use it -- and the moment someone else starts using it, this requirement is broken. The second requirement is that when you are using it, you can only do it non-commercially -- meaning for example that you cannot use Minecraft to design microchips that you would then sell (if Minecraft's TOS actually forbid such commercial use).
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So, you mean, "personal use" does mean two things:
1) Only i am allowed to use it
2) I must use it non-commercially
Did i get this right?
I did a quick search on google for the difference between "personal use" and "commercial use" and every explanation i found told me that "personal use" means only 2), which is exactly what i thought
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No.
I mean "my non-commercial personal use" means two things (both of which must be fulfilled):
1) Only I am allowed to use it (that's the "my personal" part)
2) I must use it non-commercially (that's the "non-commercial" part)
See the difference? If you'd like, you can try to explain to me how a person I have never met, seen, or talked to, whose computer I will never touch, but to whose e-mail I sent a key, playing a game, counts as my personal use of that game.
mum: "Jason, stop playing the damned game you won and go to school!"
Jason: "I can't, mum, I'm not playing it, it's this European guy -- it's 4PM over there in Europe, and he's decided to personally use it right now."
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Then i won't agree with you and our both interpretations of law is completely different. HIB says the purchased products are only for "personal use", and according to my knowledge (and as i said, every other explanation i could find doing a quick search), this only means 2). And because gifting it without receiving any benefits as a private individual is a non-commercial act im allowed to do so. Apart from that, this discussion isn't needed since HIB doesn't disallow giving parts of the bundle away
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Someone wants to give away something they bought, and you report it? Congratulations on being an asshole, dude.
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You are WRONG. Steamgifts guidelines do not say that HIB single key giveaways are not allowed. The rules say that "please review that bundle's terms of service to ensure you have permission to do so," and do not explicitly deny such giveaways. The mods have said in a previous thread that it is up to their discretion to decide on a case-by-case basis. Your reports are entirely frivolous imo.
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The mods have said in a previous thread that it is up to their discretion to decide on a case-by-case basis.
And that is exactly what reporting is for -- it's a clickable equivalent of "hey, mods, come and look at this case!"
Also, while I would certainly appreciate people who exploit the bundles being suspended, that is not the sole reason. In my own giveaways, I blacklist all people who have broken bundle rules (I asked for a mod approval for this rule, and I got it, including one reroll). An explicit list would be too long, so the solution is implicit: if I report such giveaways during these floods, then later, when someone like that wins, I don't have to contemplate "was it from a bundle? when exactly was the bundle active?" -- I simply look and see if I reported any of his giveaways. Sure, it doesn't stop all bundlers from entering my giveaways (because if you give away a game from a two months old Indie Royale now, I won't report it), but it helps.
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I believe Indie Royale allows you to give away the steam keys. The ToS says not to, but I remember someone sending an email to the organizers and they said it was fine to do so. The rule is only to prevent people from reselling the keys, but gifting is okay. I'm afraid I won't be able to dig up the post though.
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I don't care about piracy. But for the records: I didn't keep the DRM-FREE version of this game. I didn't download it and i deleted the email containing the URL to my purchase which means i destroyed my DRM-FREE copy.
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i deleted the email containing the URL to my purchase which means i destroyed my DRM-FREE copy.
You did not. You would have to close down your e-mail account:
http://support.humblebundle.com/customer/portal/articles/243191-humble-bundle-key-resender
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Didn't know of that resender, sorry. But it seems like we both agree that this does not make a difference
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Well, that might be a bit complicated. This depends on the exact legal interpretation of the sale -- was it a game or perhaps a transferrable license being sold, or a non-transferrable license being sold? If it was the game or a transferrable license, then theoretically, he can transfer the ownership to the winner. In that case, he would become a pirate the moment he would start downloading the DRM-free version (but he might be honest and refrain from doing so; it's similar to knowing a pirate bay link but not using it). However, if the sale was of a non-transferrable license, then possibly, the winner would become an unknowing pirate the moment he would activate the key, because a different person would have the license at that moment.
(Man, that looks complicated.)
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Since i'm a european, i'm allowed to give away or sell any software license i own regardless of what the entity that gave me the license says. Which means you can treat this license as a transferrable one. And you're right that i'd only become a pirate if i download the DRM-free copy, which i didn't
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And that's why I didn't call you a pirate. So far, you only seem to be determined to break the equivalent of a promise, and the discussion can go on whether it is sometimes ethical to break promises, and under what conditions.
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I could not found anything in their TOS that disallows giving away parts of the bundle nor during the purchase process. This means not only i am not breaking any law but also i'm not breaking any promise
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It says nothing like that at all. I have no idea what you're talking about. That thread simply points out that Humble Bundle said the following:
"All keys are for your personal use only."
and
"Please consider your bundle a "unit" and not to share copies of the games or Steam keys from it."
That's a very clear requirement.
(European law seems to contradict them. I'm not disagreeing with that bit.)
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They don't say this in their TOS nor during the purchase process. This means, it's not part of the contract i made with them but only a request
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Well, i doubt those people would discuss about the possibility of giving away keys or even ethics if it was forbidden. And the only official statements they found about this are requests but no requirements
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They are stated as requirements, as my quote above shows. However, they're not listed in the TOS, as you said, so perhaps that means they don't legally count as requirements.
Also, people always discuss doing forbidden things. You should pay more attention to what people say in forums. People regularly talk about games they've pirated.
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That means it's also not a violation of their TOS or the contract i have with them. It's simply a "It would be nice if you don't give away any keys to other people but you can do so if you like"
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While I agree that something lawful isn't necessarily ethical, I think in this case, there is nothing wrong or unethical about giving away the steam keys. As long as you never access the DRM free downloads.
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Why would I leave my doors unlocked if I don't want people to come to my house as they wish? Don't look for ways to exploit it, look for the signs or FAQ articles explicitly telling you "do not enter, private property", or "do not give the keys away, consider the bundle a unit, use giftable URLs for gifting".
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Could you please link me where you got that quote from? Specifically "do not give the keys away, consider the bundle a unit, use giftable URLs for gifting." I'll remove my top-most post if support has changed their stance regarding the keys.
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Oh nvm, I though chuckie meant that steamgifts support said that
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Of course.
If you mean the HIB rules themselves, then the exact quotation is as follows:
Please consider your bundle a "unit", and not to share copies of the games or Steam keys from it.
If you'd like to give a copy of the games away, we have a system in place that allows you to buy a gift key from www.humblebundle.com so your friends can have access to direct downloads as well as any Steam or other keys we have included.
If you mean the SG ruling that basically says "obey the HIB rules", then the exact quotation is the following:
If you're gifting a game from a bundle, please review that bundle's terms of service to ensure you have permission to do so.
(Followed by the "If you believe a giveaway needs to be removed, please use the report button" instruction.)
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Sorry about that. Thought the quotes you had were from steamgifts support and/or FAQ.
As I said above: Steamgifts guidelines do not say that HIB single key giveaways are not allowed. The rules say that "please review that bundle's terms of service to ensure you have permission to do so," and do not explicitly deny such giveaways. The mods have said in a previous thread that it is up to their discretion to decide on a case-by-case basis.
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It so many repeats, what are they expecting? That I keep the extra keys unused forever? Nope, sorry. I wouldnt even bought it in the first place.
Also, if you already have the game and you are European, you are pretty much in the clear.
And gifting it is personal use. For example, the Groupees bundles had the same line in theyr TOS. I spoke to the staff directly, and they said I was free to gift or trade it, as the rule is only there to prevent the resale of the keys by other retailers.
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what are they expecting? That I keep the extra keys unused forever?
Well, that's what they're asking for. Even saying "please" and all that polite stuff.
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They can say please how many times they want, but im in my full rights to give the keys away under EU law. And gifting is personal use. When you buy a dvd or a cd it also says that its only for personal use, but nobody will try to stop you from gifting it.
.
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I think that the rule is mainly meant for people that buy many bundles and then split them to trade, sell or make otherwise profit if it. In my opinion it is ok when you give the games away that you already have but then you would also doesn't be allowed to use the DRM-free version (as you pointed out. But it is totally wrong in my opinion when you buy many bundles and split them to gain something.
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It's a massive grey area. Humble, for example, bundle the games under one or two combined keys (usually 'normal' and 'beat the average'), meaning it's actually impossible to gift the individual games. Of course, the side effect of this is if you own one or two of the existing games, its not very cost effective as Steam will not give gift versions for existing games.
There's the argument that if you're giving away the Steam keys but you're keeping the Desura/DRM-free downloads, then yes, you're essentially pirating. If you just want to give the entire bundle away, you should buy a gift copy. Make sure you pay enough for a Steam key ($1 I believe) and gift the entire lot via SG and it should, in theory, be fine.
Indie Royale & Indie Gala are different again. They offer individual keys, so you can gift existing games freely, as it's sort of assumed if you're doing so, you don't care about the DRM-free portion, since you already have it.
As I said, it's pretty much a grey area that falls down to an individuals morality. Reporting people for listing HIBs is just dickery - the Steam keys have to be got from somewhere and yes, some people can be tools, but if you go through life expecting everyone to fuck you over, then you've got trust issues.
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Besides to be against the Humble Bundle's terms of service, I don't understand why I should enter these giveaway when I can buy a DRM free version of these games for 0.1 $.
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Like i said, i didn't find any passage regarding this issue in their TOS, so this remains a request and nothing more
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Yes, it's not in the TOS. I've said that several times myself. You, however, don't seem to have any idea what the word "request" means, since they clearly make demands, not requests. The TOS has nothing to do with how they phrase the answer to your question.
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I'm sorry if i used the wrong term to express what i meant since i'm no native speaker.
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That is your opinion, not mine and others. Keys are provided for personal use only, that is quite clear for me reading the Terms of Service.
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Yeah, it pisses me off. Same for Indie Royale, who specifically say in their FAQ not to give separate keys away, yet there are such giveaways here every time.
Personally I find it annoying that I can't put the extra keys to good use, but I respect their wishes.
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Someone actually asked the Indie Royale organizers about this and if I remember correctly, he got an email reply that said the rule there was only to prevent key reselling. Giving away the keys was entirely fine.
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That was me, and it wasn't Indie Royale, it was Groupees.
Indie Royale got this in the faq
"ndie Royale bundles are strictly for personal use only. Sharing Steam keys because you already own a game in the bundle is not allowed. The same applies for Desura keys. If your friend wants a bundle you should gift them or they can purchase it themselves.
The idea behind Indie Royale bundles is to support indie games, we always offer excellent games at a price you cannot beat - so please recognize this and support the developers participating by buying your own bundle."
More information on what bundles allow or not the sharing of keys here (I guess it needs a little updating)
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Ah, that's the one I remember. Looks like I was wrong
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I linked this thread in an email to support at Humble Bundle. Here is the reply:
Matthew
NOV 13, 2012 | 01:03PM PST
Hey Michael,
Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I’ll pass it on to the rest of the team for a response. You’re correct in that splitting up the bundle in any way is against our Terms of Service, however we simply don’t have the resources to prevent giveaways such as on this site.
I’m so sorry about the inconvenience!
Thank you for your support,
Matthew
Support Ninja
Humble Bundle
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Thanks for your effort! However, this remains beeing a demand as long as it is not in their TOS or clearly written on their website during the purchase process :/
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Of course. But i don't see the sense of their TOS if no one understands it
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Here's a longer version of our email conversation, since he replied again, displaying the most recent email first:
Matthew
NOV 14, 2012 | 01:33PM PST
Hey Michael,
Thanks for letting us know. We’ll see if there’s a way we can clarify the terms for future bundles.
Thank you for your support,
Matthew
Support Ninja
Humble Bundle
Michael
NOV 14, 2012 | 10:36PM PST
No worries, just wanted to give you a heads up that your TOS is being
misunderstood. Maybe there's some way to make it just a little clearer?
I'll post your reply in the forum.
--
Michael
Matthew
NOV 13, 2012 | 01:03PM PST
Hey Michael,
Thanks for bringing this to our attention. I’ll pass it on to the rest of the team for a response. You’re correct in that splitting up the bundle in any way is against our Terms of Service, however we simply don’t have the resources to prevent giveaways such as on this site.
I’m so sorry about the inconvenience!
Thank you for your support,
Matthew
Support Ninja
Humble Bundle
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Well, i hope they will make it clearer. It wouldn't make a big difference though since they most likely can't enforce it but it would prevent topics like this
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I'm a little confused. Is it, regarding the TOS of HIB, allowed to give away single keys from the bundle? Since they're stating here that those bundles should be considered as a "unit". I'm asking because i have i spare key i'm willing to give away if that's not against their TOS
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