Should there be a method to protect scamming winners?
Hmmm, the polling seems to be falsely stated. The question should be Should there be a method to protect AGAINST scamming winners?
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i also had such kind of a giveaway, the person told me, the key was already used and asked me for a new one, i swear it wasn't used yet...
he clicked on not recieved directly and i checked, if the key was used, it was and before the giveaway it wasn't
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Set a relatively high CV like level 3 or so. This reduces the chances of some asshole winning your GA.
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It could be, but that still mean that SG have lack of protection against scamming winners.
What I meant to address is this lack of protection, because scamming winners will be free to fly away while scamming GA creators could be punished.
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If you are so concerned about these things then maybe you shouldn't be giving anything away. It's inevitable to have some assholes in this site.
Right now, a high CV is the best solution to prevent yourself from being defrauded.
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That's a rather heavy-handed solution.
I am just pointing out a flaw in SG. Whether they want to fix it or not, that's not my concern.
If I am "so concerned" I guess I won't be gifting away games, right?
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You do seem extremely concerned.
Right now, Steam does not have any protection in place for keys trading/gifting. It's not Steamgifts fault. There is little support could do to protect you if you want to give keys away because you can't prove that it works because STEAM does not have a system in place to verify keys.
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Thank you for taking the time to write about this issue. As you can probably guess, we have been aware of this for a long time. Currently, aside from "being careful," there is not a lot you can do about it. The root of the problem is the lack of any way to identify whether or not a key has been used. This is the same reason why some websites are willing to replace or refund keys which you have purchased from them (they may be defective) while others refuse to offer any refunds at all ("at your own risk").
If you think you have found a solution to the lack of key verification, please let the world-wide Steam community know. We would like to hear about it.
In the meantime, I'll stick to trading in gifts.
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Yes, I understand the root of the problem : inability to verify any key. We can't blame it fully on Steam though, people could use the same system to "find" working keys. I think this problem would not be fixed forever, due to its possibility to be used for illicit activities. I guess we will also reject those kind of verification if it could be abused.
I write the problem because it is impossible for me to trade in gifts, due to region restriction issues.
But, no problem then. Thanks for taking the time to reply.
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I did a few giveaways where I sent out cd-keys, but they are always more hassle than regular SteamGifts.
Here is how you would protect yourself:
- Take a screenshot of your purchase proof showing the cd-key.
- Take a screen of the e-mail/chat conversation of when you sent the cd-key to the winner.
- Create a ticket with both screenshots.
You should also know that as a giveaway creator, there is always a chance for the winner to not activate the gift.
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This is why I buy games directly from Steam and not from CD-KEY websites, even if it end up being more costly.
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That's not the solution.
You could still end up with assholes who don't mark it as received or come back to you a month later and claim you never gifted anything to them or our gift was revoked.
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Screenshot sending the gifts/keys and send them to SG Support in those cases.
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If I send the keys (which is clearly there), and the key is duplicated, that won't solve the problem.
In this case, SG will know that I have sent the goods, but the "facts" as told by the winner will told me that the goods are defective.
Will SG stand with the winners or the GA creators? That's the question.
We can't verify that the creators have sent a bad code, but we can't verify either that the winner have not sent the key to someone else.
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You can easily proof that you have send the gift on steam, using the inventory history.
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You still have to go through the hassle of creating a ticket..... And support is overwhelmed with tickets now.
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You are actually right, but other than the fact that keys can sometimes be a lot cheaper, you are forgetting something else. Since Steam started region locking games bought from the cheaper regions (Russia, South America etc), the people living in said regions have no way of gifting games purchased from their regional steam store and have no option other than buying keys if they want to make giveaways here.
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This is what I meant. To give away games I have to purchase from outside Steam.
If I purchase one from Steam and giving it away essentially I am violating SG's guidelines to NOT give away region-restricted games.
Thus, the correlation to the case at hand is that giving out keys could be problematic, as neither side could prove that they are correct.
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That's not the solution, as right now Steam is doing region restriction, not to mention that SG forbids us for giving away region-restricted gifts.
The problem is not on CD-Key or the Steam gifts, both are sequentially same items, but the problem is there is a lack of method to protect against scamming winners.
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Yes, but there are restricted countries, my country is among the restricted ones.
So, I have to purchase ROW games on HB or IG, but it does create a significant risk due to scamming users.
I honestly think that all keys from IG/HB should work.
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Region restriction isn't directly related to the issue in this thread.
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with how much you give away if a few keys where said to be dup would admins/users really hold it against you? even so i think you have to be at set % before any action is taken. i understand the ocd nature to have a 100% clear record but i'ed take the not received before i'ed give them another game as your also clearly not giving bundle stuff.
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This is why I don't buy anything from steam.
Just kidding this isn't why. I'm just bored. =(
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Actually, yes.
The problem is that it's impossible to implement such system. Until Valve adds a way to check if key is valid and unused WITHOUT actually trying to activate it, there's no way to check that. You can only check if the key is valid without activating it, if you already own the game and try to activate it. But it won't tell you if it's used or not anyway.
So you're pretty much asking for impossible here.
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What I am asking is not to check the key for validity, but allow the GA to be deleted if both sides can't prove their theories.
The GA creator, if they are honest, will only lose one key.
If the GA creator is cheating they will lose nothing, but gain nothing.
If the winner is honest, they will lose nothing, gain nothing, like he never won anything.
If the winner is cheating, they will have one key.
Maybe some other verification are necessary, maybe a screenshot from the IG page? Or proof that the winner has contacted IG/HB regarding the duplicated key?
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You know that you're only adding tickets to the support, which is already busy enough?
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Are we discussing about how busy the support for SG is?
Yes, I know they are very busy, but we are currently discussing methods to protect against "evil winners".
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And what do you think, who would be responsible for resolving the conflict?
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Again, we are just hypothesizing to invent a method how to protect the winners. Should the method disrupt SG, we reject those methods. But the method itself must be accepted first as a principle, though will then be rejected from a practical point of view.
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The thing is, as I said, it's impossible to even think of the proper system if Steam itself doesn't provide you with any tool for checking the keys.
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It would be easy for people to spam the check to come up with keys though D: I don't know anything about computers though.
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Just a little food for thought: there was a time I bought a key from BundleStars and it turned out to be duplicated. Once I got in touch with their support, they quickly corrected it, so no big problems there... But some good, reputable sellers do make mistakes, so it is possible that some of (maybe all) the 3-4 people that complained are actually telling the truth.
Well, maybe. Just my $0.01.
Cheers!
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Sometimes older keys don't work anymore. One of the bundle places (I think it's Indie Gala) says you should activate your keys right away because they can't guarantee them after a month (or was it more time than that?).
There was one bundle on Groupees with one game that for some reason suddenly the keys didn't work anymore. Something to do with the devs. I can't remember what the deal was. But I never got around to activating mine or giving it away and now I'm screwed.
Those are rare examples, but stuff does happen.
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Yes, I understand that stuff does happen. But in those cases you mentioned, surely you could go to the respective game store and have it replaced, right?
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No, sometimes your SOL. That's why they say to activate it right away so they don't have to buy new keys for you.
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game you were, most likely, talking about: http://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/y7iZo/warning-eryis-action-steam-keys-are-not-working/search?page=31337
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Nope, that wasn't the one. It was last year sometime.
Okay, I looked it up. It was Nekro from Groupees Be Mine 13 bundle. Anyone who didn't use their key right away got screwed.
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I dunno if it was Eryi's or Nekro, but the devs came back and gave out a new batch of keys for one of 'em.
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I had mine replaced by sending a polite request that included where I purchased them from and the actual keys that were affected. Instructions with an updated email address are now located here: http://steamcommunity.com/app/246400/discussions/0/619569341071480896/
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Indiegala ask you to activate right away, but they also say the key will never expire.
PLEASE ACTIVATE YOUR KEYS AS SOON AS POSSIBLE.
Your keys and your account will NEVER expire. You can activate your keys
even after a year has passed.
Most of the unsold keys are sent back to the vendor 60 days after the
bundle ends, so replacing keys after this period may be difficult.
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You can't prove you sent a working key, and they can't prove your key didn't work.
If you think a bundle key really should have worked, you might try asking the support people at that bundle site for help. Apparently they can revoke it and send you a different key instead, but I've never tried. That way, if your hypothetical evil giveaway winner secretly sent the "bad key" to a friend, the friend will lose the game. Yay?
The couple times someone told me their bundle giveaway key didn't work, I sent them a gift from the Steam store instead. Were they lying? Did I screw up and send them a used key? Who cares? Life's too short to worry about this stuff... :)
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for putting his thoughts in words n making this post of course!
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Well obviously I responded to this along with the giveaways I was entering; so the thanks can be for not making fun of my mistake.
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Well, I don't know how you.....respond this along with giveaways.... as this is on a different section of SG.
Just be more careful next time, lol.
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If it's on Indiegala, for example, can't you check who the key is activated to? It shows that, does it no?
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The question isn't really if it should have any, but how would it be implemented.
It's easy to say that something should be done, but it isn't easy to actually do anything.
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i have a suggestion abt how. it's how steamcompanion works.
when ever creator sends key, the winner gets notification, but he won't see the unless she/he clicks button to show the key. when button is clicked , the time is recorded. so support knows exactly when he got the key..
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The winner can still claim the key is a dupe though, so I'm not sure if this would help.
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it's not full proof. if he didn't activate game in next ..4 mins then assumption leans in GA creators favor that key is okay n winner gave it away.
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I dunno, I won a giveaway where the key came directly from indiegala and it was a dupe. The GA creator contacted IG and they gave him a new, working key. Sometimes even indiegala and humble make mistakes.
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I found the feature where marking the GA as "Received" can be rescinded as odd. I think they should make it permanent but they should prompt the user that "By marking the GA as received, you are acknowledging that you have received and activated the gift on your account.". That way, it will protect the GA creator from scammers and blackmailers.
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I can see where it is useful.
Say an over zealous member hits the received button in excitement of winning.
Only to never get the game, wrong game, or invalid key. It will then be necessary to open a ticket to correct.
Those that abuse this function, I am sure the site timestamps such a thing for when the received game is checked.
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That's why there should be a prompt with acknowledgement so it will prevent people from accidentally marking it as received and they should only mark it received when they actually activated it to their account..
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I think this is a brilliant idea.
That way winners could not held the game at ransom.
A simple prompt upon the lines of "Upon clicking this you have acknowledged that the key is indeed working as intended. This decision is irreversible".
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let's say i bought a bundle with a stolen cc and gifted you a game from that bundle. key worked fine but after a month it got revoked. now what?
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Yes I've already thought about that, the user will need to file a ticket to the support. It's actually very rare that someone will take time to steal a cc then buy a game that you will give to someone. One of the advantage is it will actually prevent people from abusing the system. I saw a post in the forum where this GA creator was surprised that one of the winner marked his GA as not received after a month in the end, the support still gets a ticket about the issue. But if my suggestion will be implemented, it will force the people involved (GA creator and winner) to resolve the issue immediately if a problem arises and the support will be freed from responsibility because of the acknowledgement I stated above with the exemption of the situation you stated .
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or the giveaway creator can submit a ticket instead, pointing out winner has the game in their library. if they don't have it, giveaway creator should have reported the winner for not activating the key.
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I updated my reply to you. Another situation, Let's say I did mark the game as received even though I didn't activate it then the GA creator caught me and confronted me that he will report me. Since I'm an asshole, I immediately changed the GA to not received and tell that the key is not working. So that's one of the way to abuse to system.
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i seriously doubt people will read the pop-up warning but if you want this that much, okay then. if only i could implement it to help you.
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They should read it! It's like signing a contract without reading it. If they don't read it then it's their own fault if something went wrong.. It's just a suggestion actually, I just want SG to be more fair to GA creators who spends their time and money to share..
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One option would be to use some sort of remote desktop software like Teamviewer to verify key activation on the winner's side. Connect to the winner's PC, make sure his Steam account is open, then type in or copy-paste your key yourself into the activation window and press Next.
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Can be a bit cumbersome, but this will at least provide the level of security OP is talking about ^_^
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True and basically the only 100% way to make sure I suppose.
Remote Desktop key activation requirement site wide!!! ლ(ಠ益ಠლ)
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I think it's not necessary since you can see if they activated the game at their steam profile..
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OP is talking about the cases when the winner claims the key has been used. Activating it via Teamviewer would ensure you see the "invalid key" message yourself and at least have no doubts about the winner's sincerity.
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Oh I see, it's up to the people involved but I'm opposed to it if it will be mandatory requirement to SG users since it's totally unsafe to have someone access your computer.
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He didn't come outright and say it, but I'm sure Sleepy wasn't very serious.
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we gonna need hell lot of mods to keep an eye on that...
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I can't see this approach being very popular with bundle keys. However, If someone was giving away an expensive key for a AAA preorder, they might want to have extra security.
In any case, this wouldn't be something enforced by support.
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honestly...this post is making me paranoid...
we are relying on fluffy clouds called good human nature as security..
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Remote Desktop is not a trojan horse. Both parties can see what's going on on the screen, both parties are in control, both parties can drop the connection at any time. It's not like you give someone full access to your computer and then go cry in the shadows while he subscribes you to malware ^_^ Like I said, I listed it as an option for someone who wants to control the process of activating their key on someone else's computer.
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but he will know abt my porn satchel on deskt..ahem ahem..
i meant to say the whole thread not your post in particular...as we are discussing it like every winner is potential scammer..
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i had a not correct key or something on one of my GA. it was probably a typo.
had another key, so gave him that one, and activated the first on my account (had two, waited for the GA to end)
not all are bad ;)
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I know I've sent someone an invalid key before, I had two keys, and accidentally gave out the same key twice instead of one of each. wasn't too hard to see what happened as I keep records.
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While it's true that some people can be assholes and try to scam an extra key out of you, you should not believe bundle sites are infallible, i'v been given a couple of dupe keys from bundles over time, not from Hib, but it has happened with Indiegala and Groupees, and they replaced them. Not to mention there have been cases of asshole devs who have invalidated all the unused keys for their games once a certain number of months passed, Nekro comes to mind.
If you already own the games you're giving away you could always check the key before you give it away, if it's ok it tells you that you already own the game, if it's a dupe it says it's a dupe. Or at least that's how i remember it working anyway :)
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If you already own the games you're giving away you could always check the key before you give it away,if it's ok it tells you that you already own the game, if it's a dupe it saysit's a dupeyou already own the game.
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Youre just assuming everyone's a scammer and there all out to get you. Just because a key was provided by a bundle site doesn't mean it was a good key. I've had bad keys from all the major bundles, just contact them and request a new key.
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Yes, I understand that they key itself could be faulty.
But what is discussed is that there are literally no protection for the creators of the give away.
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If you can show you sent the key support can mark it as received. They can't offer anything more than that.
"Personally during my 300+ GA I encounter 3-4 people who claim that their key is duplicated and they are asking for another one. In truth, the key came from Indie Gala or Humble Bundle and from my end, I am 100% sure that the key is not duplicated, and has not been used by me. In all of the cases, the winner just told me that they have tried to activate it but found that the key is duplicated. 3-4 in 300+ means that 1% are scammers, which is not a small number."
The only thing you can be sure of is that you didn't use the key, you have no way of knowing or checking whether it was a duplicate or invalid key. A key not working doesn't make the winner a scammer but you've instantly assumed they are.
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Sometimes i check my giveaways entries profiles and 1 or 2 times i found some users with bad rep or users with multiple " not recieved " in their won gift section that it is really bad to see that you can`t do anything to kick them from your giveaway that are running yet !
I was thinking wish we had an option like " Kick Button " to kick those sick users from our giveaway !
sorry for english !
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You have a lot " received " as well & i actually do not speak about every user with multiple " not received " in his/her profile . I mean sometimes its really clear for you that this user that has participate in your giveaway isnt a normal person but you cant do anything about it . You should just w8 and be hope that this person dont win your giveaway and if he/she won your giveaway , you should say : yeah, he/she had a chance like others !. all are equal and after that : I appreciate for your participation, take this game and then w8 again to see a " not received " in your profile !
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The old Oauth activation method of humble bundle allowed you to actually see who activated the gift, i may be wrong but it may still be the case if you explicitly generate the gift link instead of the key!
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It says who CLAIMED the link, but the person can still re-gift the link to someone else. Although if you can prove they claimed it then it means that it was 100% valid.
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Well, if i give an unclaimed link to someone and i see it is claimed i know the other guy is lying, and it's easy to say, « i see what you did » and provide a screenshot with the account used…
Also if you strongly suspect the user is a scam, you may try to look at his win history and contact the other givers of his wins to see if he asked for another key too…
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well, problem: there is no way to protect anyone from sammers since you cannot verify a key without activating it.
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Just want to add my rant here.
There is a lot of talk about the creator of the GA refusing to give the game. There is a lot of cases of scamming GA creators, but what about winners who are scamming?
Personally during my 300+ GA I encounter 3-4 people who claim that their key is duplicated and they are asking for another one. In truth, the key came from Indie Gala or Humble Bundle and from my end, I am 100% sure that the key is not duplicated, and has not been used by me. In all of the cases, the winner just told me that they have tried to activate it but found that the key is duplicated. 3-4 in 300+ means that 1% are scammers, which is not a small number.
In truth, however, it's easy to NOT activate the key on your account, but hand out the key to someone else, have it duplicated, and claim another key from the creator of the GA. After the creator gave you the second key, then you activate it on your account, so essentially you won two games. One for you, and one for your friends or something.
While we can easily report scamming GA creators, due to not sending their keys, it's hard to prove if a key is used or not. From what I know, Indie Gala keys should be 100% working. It's almost impossible to have duplicated keys if the key is not duplicated. If the creators have not send their GA, it's very clear, as there is no gift in the winner's inventory or there is no key at Steam Gift. But what about scamming winners? The creators won't be able to prove anything, although the creators might be on the right side.
On other hand, I still understand that some GA creators are scams, creating GA with duplicated key to scam people. But what I ask is that to protect GA creators who are not scammers, as buying a second game may not be cheap. If I handed out bundle games maybe I could purchase another one. But what if the bundle already not there? What if the game I give away is an expensive games?
I propose that if both sides have arguments, rather than immediately allow the buyer to mark as not received, there is a method to escalate the problem somehow, at least delete the GA altogether, creating a zero-sum result.
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