very bad move from them.
You bought disk, its yours, isnt it? so you can do with it whatever you want.
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I am honestly not buying it. You can stalk me all you want to make sure.
I give my word to you that what I have is 76 reason to not buy it.
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i've read it years ago, when companies started to release bugged games or VERY short ones
game will sell
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how is it a bad move from them? do you think this will some how many gamers think less of bethesda or not as interested in their products... or, even that they'll take some sort of stance against buying their games? lol.
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Murica. They wouldn't be able to pull this off in the EU.
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Land of the free... LOL
Very interesting read though. Thanks for sharing.
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soon there will be times when nazis are considered naive children in comparison with Paradox, Sega, EA, Bethesda, Ubisoft and other motherfuckers who want you paying for every fucking pixel in front of you (a pixel which, by the way, you haven't bought, but "rented" according to their hypocritic User Agreement or whatever they call their lie).
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I doubt any of them will systematically slaughter six million people and start another world war, so no they'll never be worse than the nazis.
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I stand by your right to say this even if I may or may not disagree with it, some of the mods on this site are easily triggered snowflakes who are not open to debate. They also make some bullshit excuses about how free speech does not save you from aggression in return when that's in fact the case, Free Speech means you should be able to say what you want without having people retaliate against you.
But I guess feefees take priority over principles.
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And 6 million was just the number of Jews that were killed during the Holocaust. The death toll closer to 15-20 million when including the other targeted groups.
Your right, those are some big shoes to fill if major publishers are to be considered worse than the Nazis :0
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Can you point me to some sources for that 15-20 millions?
I was just reading up myself and only found number in the range of 400,000 for Sinti & Roma, disabled people, ....
Edit: Seems I was just stupid. Found 15 million myself.
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Exact numbers are always difficult to determine. More to the point is that even one murder is one too many. Regardless of rationale, killing another human being is an extremely serious matter and should never be taken lightly. Wanton slaughter is even more reprehensible.
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I am fully supporting your position. I was just confused yesterday evening as I had a number greater than 10 million in mind but did not find support for this number reading wikipedia. A little later I search for another phrase and found an article for those higher numbers.
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well, Holocaust is a myth (in my opinion) - I'm sure in that as much as you sure that it actually happened (it didn't, by the way).
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Sadly it is no ban yet. Suspended folk can come back.
Edit: This comment might have been a little emotional. See eeev's comment below.
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While I cleary share the common take on akhsavi's comments being way beyond moronic, I'm not sure if stupidity and ignorance are valid reasons for suspending someone permanently from SG, I'm actually quite a bit shocked if his personal opinion, however wrong and fucked up it may be, really should be the reason for this punishment - and you're even asking for a ban! What kind of community is this when freedom of speech is turned into censorship?
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My approach is that freedom of speech doesn't grant you the right of your opinion and behavior being welcome everywhere. Imho he used this anyway to cause a maximum of annoyance and opposition. No matter if he was serious or not, I appreciate any site that gets rid of such characters. Just like I expect a club to get rid of drunken bullies too, despite their "right to dance and drink".
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Hm. Honestly, I've read much worse stuff around here without such consequences. akhsavi's an idiot, but I can't help it but seeing this harsh punishment as unjustified. There was no attacking anyone, just an expression of poor education, bad company and a huge pile of ignorance and dumbness.
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there are (and were) also people that denied Pallestine is a country, but despite reports no action was taken. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
i doubt this comment alone got him banned.
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I doubt it too that just this comment alone caused the permanent suspension, but it certainly was his "greatest contribution" to reach the target. ;)
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... but it certainly was his "greatest contribution" to reach the target. ;)
Nope. Not even close.
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A permaban was not given due to what was posted. Rather, Akhsavi pursued that result until Support acquiesced. Not everyone pauses to consider their mistakes, learns from them, and moves on with their lives. Some people keep bashing their head against a wall and then are surprised they have concussion.
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I didn't find any connection between those two posts until you pointed that out :P
So it doesn't feel like there is more to it than pointing some people keep bashing their head against a wall, and then are surprised they have concussion.
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Granted that context should be considered, but there is no connection between the two. Even so, I will crib MsKOTOR's analogy for the sake of sensitivity.
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Weeeeeeeell, there is freedom of speech and there is what he did being an actual criminal offence in Russia with prison sentences attached. (Not like anyone ever served any time for being openly and publicly anti-Semitic there, but technically this law is in effect for a while now.)
So, probably getting perma'd from this site for repeatedly being an asshat with its staff (see above) is still mild compared to him technically having the possibility to end up in jail for the same comment.
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Ikr, I wasn't even going to bother arguing with him. I was like "Yea, well we'll just see what the mods think about that little number."
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While I cleary share the common take on akhsavi's comments being way beyond moronic, I'm not sure if stupidity and ignorance are valid reasons to suspend someone permanently from SG, I'm actually quite a bit shocked if his personal opinion, however wrong and fucked up it may be, really should be the reason for this punishment. What kind of community is this when freedom of speech is turned into censorship?
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Suspension length was ticking up in several steps. Seems like support took each comment as a single offense.
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I know. And I agree with your position. My comment above was more in affect.
If each comment is a single offense, I can understand -not support- the permanent suspension. I created a ticket to ask support if each comment in such a case is a single suspension.
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And the offense would be "Inappriate behaviour" I guess? Honestly, I've read much worse stuff around here without such consequences. akhsavi's an idiot, but I can't help it but seeing this harsh punishment as unjustified. There was no attacking anyone, just an expression of poor education, bad company and a huge pile of ignorance and dumbness.
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Support told me that it was not just the comments here.
The increase in suspension length I observed was for something else.
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Well, I guess they had their reasons then. Thanks for investigating, Oppenh4imer. Got tired of speaking up for them anyways ;)
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Wenn ich mich richtig erinnere, gab es da noch Kommentare seinerseits im 'Street Harassment Awareness' Thread.
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Ah, da schau ich quasi nie rein. Danke für den Hinweis!
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But you were doing such a good job of bashing us. Why stop now? All the cool kids are doing it.... D
(Yes, that was said in jest. Seriously, though, it takes thick skin to moderate this site, and Support is pretty even-handed. Being foolish isn't enough to earn a permaban.)
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C'mon Khalaq, I was not bashing anyone. I just felt like what I've seen didn't warrant a permanent suspension and questioned the fact. Actually what I was thinking yesterday was "Where is Khalaq when you need him?" ;)
Thanks for clearing things up a bit and for doing what you are doing. I don't read every other thread nowadays and I'm not up to date with all the drama happening around here.
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I don't read every other thread nowadays and I'm not up to date with all the drama happening around here.
One would hope that we could avoid most of the "drama," but people are people, I suppose. Back in "the old days," it was understood that you had the freedom to express yourself, but other people had the right to respond negatively if you misbehaved.
More and more often, I find the voice of Rodney King in my head, asking, "Can't we all just get along?" Amen, Brother.
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He got to use his right of free speech. Free speech does not grant you immunity, free speech has consequences. You can wrap it up in opinion, but that doesn't just make anything okay to say. Funnily enough he said it's his opinion, and ended with stating it was fact :P
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Hmm...
"He got to use his right of free murder. Free murder does not grant you immunity, free murder has consequences".
Free speech equals without conseqences - but what most people forget, free speech is a regulation in citizens->government contacts, and is not required to be used in Internet forums or other random street contacts.
And SG does not have free-speech policy, there are bunch of things you cannot talk about - like begging or links-to-scammers.
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Free speech equals without conseqences....
Not so. Freedom of expression is usually understood in the context of the government not preventing you from expressing yourself. It does not mean that your expression is without consequence. The consequences of what we say and do are largely dependent upon how we express ourselves, but there are always consequences. Different governments have different restrictions upon the freedom of expression, but I cannot think of any that are "completely free." When people talk about "freedom of speech," it is usually a matter of the government "staying out of the picture" as much as possible. Private individuals are generally allowed to react however they see fit as long as they do not infringe on the rights of others.
You are correct, however, in pointing out that SG is a private party rather than a governmental one, and our Mods are therefore not bound to "stay out of the picture." We just prefer to do so.
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You pretty much wrote what I wrote after the "-", that "free speech" is only a citizens->government regulation and you can't say "muh free speech" when someone kicks you out of their home, bakery or internet forum, but you can say "muh freedome of speech" when cops start to beat you for saying "our government sucks".
When people talk about "freedom of speech," it is usually a matter of the government "staying out of the picture" as much as possible.
Most of the times when I see someone saying "muh freedome of speech", they usually mean "my ability to be an arsehole without consequences" and they don't mean government at all...
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I took exception to your semantics, but we otherwise seem to share the same viewpoint.
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its normally only neo nazis that deny the holocaust, which is one of the reasons for it being a criminal act in various parts of the world.
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I can imagine the criminal sentence of denying who the Burger King is.
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True, I'm aware that way more than 6 million people died but I can never recall the total number of deaths whenever I need to. Hopefully I didn't come as disrespectful to the other millions of people that died, I'm just stupid with numbers most of the time.
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Nah, your good, it's a common wording mistake. I was just highlighting the even greater level of tyranny that existed in Nazi Germany, adding on to your comment of how ridiculous it to compare Nazis to a video game publisher :)
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They didn't even start the first world war since the whole alliance thing was a cluster**** and they actively tried to prevent the second while unifying the scattered German people.
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That is a really stupid comparison. Please don't belittle the horrendous loss of lives and sacrifices by using it like that.
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Shit comparison is still shit, but you do you, everyone is free to paint themselves as morons :D
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the thing Bethesda doing (along with others I mentioned) is a digital fascism and if you don't understand that then the moron is you
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You made it already clear that you have no idea about fascism, especially that fascism is from Italy, and not similes with nazism.
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here's something else for you - from "moron" to a "not moron" so to say
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Companies directly attacking the grey second hand market was bound to happen sooner or later. If this goes to court it will be interesting to see what kind of precedent is set.
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I suspect they will lose because a unused game or key is not tied to any account or name of a person so Bethesda doesn't know whether it was purchased from a retailer secondhand and thus have no grounds to refuse any warranty. Unless they want to start asking or proof of purchases every time which could end up costing more time and money than it's worth. However anything is possible in a court.
Definitely not good PR.
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I somehow doubt amazon is "grey market". Bethesda never attempted to target the actual grey markets since those are waaaaaaaaaaaaaaay out of their lawyers' jurisdiction. (Grey markets hide from international law in places like SIngapore, Dubai, or Hong Kong.)
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I somehow doubt amazon is "grey market". [...]
Many "stores" on Amazon these days are often more similar to sellers on eBay; if you haven't purchased from there in a while, double-check your seller options when buying, and see if anyone in the reviews mentions which seller they got it from when they post a good or bad review (rare, but helpful when they do). Sometimes, even knockoffs are sold under the official listing for the product (easily-manufactured baby and pet toys in particular come to mind), and quality of third party products can vary greatly (e.g. battery replacements).
Anyway, a seller of a product on Amazon can easily be an unauthorized reseller -- as I understand it, the exact definition of gray market.
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Except it was a Physical copy of the game still in a sealed box.
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Does make the lawyer's claim very shaky though. How is a still-sealed copy not "the game in its original form, which would include a warranty." ?
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I really want to see how they get around that too because I agree with what you said and it’s exactly what popped into my head reading it.
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I think because private seller doesn't give like 30-days warranty that game works like retail shops do. Or second-hand shops that give warranty.
But when game is in original foil they don't need to give warranty. As it's impossible that game doesn't work. Unless Bethesda would make some big mistake and add not working keys to boxes.
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They've tried for years to shut down second hand sales, the Xbox One launch an easy example of this, but I can't see them succeeding due to the impact it'd have across all form of marketplace/ebay/thrift/charity sellers.
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It's no secret that companies are ridiculously greedy but this is again entire new level of low...
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Doesn't really matter. There are 2 things that would happen here. Either 1) It will get thrown out in court or 2) It will go to trial and Bethesda will have to pay legal fees once they lose.
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not in the U.S.
I know that in some countries the loser has to pay the winner's legal fees, but in the U.S. it doens't work that way. There, each side pays their own legal fees. in breach of contract cases, it's possible to include legal fees as part of the damages, but a defendant who wins is SOL
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A lot of cases don't go to court because of the risk and implication of financial and time burden (especially when a big company threatens to sue an individual). In stuff like these, for the individual, the upside of winning is very low, while the downside of losing is very high, so even when the chances of winning are moderately high most people won't want the suit to actually happen. The expected value just doesn't add up for most.
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seems really odd as it's already been quite established law about second hand sales of copyright material.. It's totally and utterly legal.. I'm not sure what grounds Bethesda is trying to go for on this one.. It's quite mind boggling in all honesty..
Maybe they are looking for a way to challenge the already established law and see if they can get it reevaluated or something.. Seems strange to me and I'm guessing eventually if they do this enough someone will decide to fight them in court and will ultimately win..
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It seems Bethesda's problem is his second hand copy selling it as a New. (Claiming it comes with warranty from Bethesda as per Amazon's rules, while it doesn't)
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But the game in question was sealed and unopened, technically not “used,” but being sold secondhand.
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Just a matter of time, on someone to introduce pay per view play, every time you click play they wanting you to pay, i am sure there are some out there already thinking about that.
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games whit gold subscription (where you cant play games that xbox advertised all days as "give to you for free"),ps plus and demo of arkanoid feel a little bit like that ....
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Well if the price per play would be pretty low, like 1 buck or similar, then that doesn't sound like such a bad idea. In most singleplayer games you only press play once, unless you exit the game. You could finish a 10 hour triple A game that would otherwise cost 40-50 bucks in one sitting for 1 buck (or a couple of sittings for a couple of bucks). It could work well as an alternative method of payment alongside our current one but companies would probably lose money. Now paying everytime you die, paying more than 5 bucks or starting you from the beginning, that would indeed be absurd and most likely will never happen (not saying that my idea will).
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Oh, I hope that this is gonna tear their ass up much. If not, what is going to come next from them?
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remove language in region,remove family share,sell mods...many they an do bad lol
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I still don't understand why they still try to push this and fight second hand games. Nowadays console games (I mention console games because pc games are usually digital) cost way too much and many people don't have that much for a game. They instead decide to pick a cheaper yet used version. Second hand games let more people be in touch with more games, this move only restrict more people from playing them.
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Bethesda... Bethesda never changes. If they keep digging eventually their fanboys will see them for what they are and stop supporting them.
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I wasn't buying Fallout 76 to being with, the "MMO" part killed it for me.
This just makes me not want to buy any more of there games at all.
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having read it, i understand the issue... hes selling it as 'new', and his argument that he has a right to resell his game isnt the problem, its that hes trying to sell this product as a new one. if he simply sold it as used, this wouldnt be an issue. nothing is stopping him reselling the game - its all about the word 'new' from the looks of things. If he puts it up as second hand but states 'unopened, perfect condition', bethesda not only couldnt touch him, they wouldnt bother.
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If it's factory sealed then the game is still new.
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it is not, because beside physical product what contributes to full 'new' product are also things like limited warranty. Let me give you an example - a very common practice in my country for people to get a quick buck is to extend their contract with mobile operator for next 2-3 years, get a brand new phone thanks to that then resell it. Thing is warranty starts the very moment the official transaction happens. If phone has 12 months warranty and it takes you 21 months to find a seller you are selling a factory-sealed phone yet with just 10 months warranty compared to 12 months one. Thus these products are actually different from each other.
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It wouldn't be new if they unsealed it then rewrapped it themselves. Which is a lot harder to do than it sounds. Only scammers would try to do that anyway. Factory sealed means new and has nothing to do with warranty. If they wanted to try this then they should have went after Ebay years ago that has sellers selling games as new before Amazon Marketplace was ever a thing.
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+1
And here is the statement for u lazy's:
Bethesda does not and will not block the sale of pre-owned games. The issue in this case is that the seller offered a pre-owned game as “new” on the Amazon Marketplace.
We do not allow non-authorized resellers to represent what they sell as “new” because we can’t verify that the game hasn’t been opened and repackaged. This is how we help protect buyers from fraud and ensure our customers always receive authentic new product, with all enclosed materials and warranty intact.
In this case, if the game had been listed as “Pre-Owned,” this would not have been an issue.
✌ Peace 💖 Love 💲 Some sort of Understanding.
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Thank you for that snippet, now I see where Bethesda is coming from and they're right, someone could have opened, used then resealed it to make it look "new". It would've then been a scam when the inside product doesn't work for whatever reason and not Bethesda's fault, which would not be covered in a warranty.
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Is there even such a thing as "Pre-owned" listing? Cause I don't see anything like it anywhere on Amazon or Ebay, just "New" and "Used".
From what I see here Bethesda is trying to make it look like by listing the CONDITION of the game as "New" (rightfully so if he's truthful about it being unopened) he's somehow pretending to be somehow certified by them which is total crap in my opinion. Bethesda is just bullying people for daring to sell their own property while masquerading it as some sort of consumer protection.
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pre-owned is a term developed by the automotive industry to sell used vehicles at a higher price. "used" cars have a negative connotation, so car dealers came up with the term "pre-owned" to justify higher prices.
There is no such thing as "pre-owned". It's either new (unused from a retailer) or used (from a consumer, or from a retailer who obtained it from a consumer)
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But we're not talking about cars. Unless there are actual laws stating that goods can only be called new (regardless of their condition) if the manufacturer says so, I still believe Bethesda is in the wrong here.
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calling goods new when they aren’t is fraud, and there are laws against that.
The issue is, what’s “new”?. Based on the dictionary definition this can go either way.
Oh, and I agre Bethesda is in the wrong
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As soon as a product reaches the hand of a consumer - said product is considered "used" or "pre-owned". < Just two words that mean the same thing in this case.
A company has to protect themselves in this way. However silly "the people" find it to be...
Let's say the (second) buyer of this item experiences a faulty disc, or whatever the issue may be. He contacts support for help, hoping to get reimbursed. Bethesda now can't do anything to help this guy, because it was bought second-hand. With no receipt and with No warranty. This new buyer is screwed. And Bethesda takes all the blame.
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Why would "used" and "preowned" ever mean the same thing? They clearly describe different states of an item.
From what I see Hupp tried selling his unopened, unused retail copy of the game on Amazon. According to Amazon's guidelines he marked it's condition as New, since it wasn't used. These guidelines are clearly about properly describing Item's physical condition and not whatever some publisher feels like interpreting them. The guidelines state that original warranty's details, if there is any, should be included in listing comments, so unless he promised warranty that was actually void, he didn't do anything wrong.
There is a definite problem with sellers on Amazon - there's no way to distinguish some private citizen selling of their collection and an authorized reseller at a glance. I personally thought that you're buying everything from Amazon for a long time before I noticed that they have various sellers.
But the story here isn't about Bethesda reaching out to Amazon to protect their customers from confusion or anything like that, it's about Bethesda hiring some law firm to slam people with legal threats. They aren't defending anything here, they're looking to inconvenience people even more and make examples out of them. The fact that this firm advertises methods used against Hupp in their article on "Stopping Unauthorized Online Sales" clearly shows that this isn't about protecting anything, it's about bullying someone too weak to fight back and looking strong to their partners and investors.
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Why would "used" and "preowned" ever mean the same thing? They clearly describe different states of an item.
For you, in the literal sense. It clearly varies :p But for the provider of the product. It means that they cannot support the product as a newly bought item from their own "hands".
You are correct about one thing. " They are making an example " out of this guy. And for reasons that protect their own interests, (and the potential second buyer), however inconvenient it may be for the rest of us. Business is business. I'm not surprised.
But this whole "Big corporation, poking the small man with fire-sticks, and feeling big about it" - is getting old.
I see it for what it is. And I don't feel like debating something this silly anymore.
To me, it's clear as the sky what's going on. Even though I don't personally like it.
✌
Edit: (Aaand I'm blacklisted ) 😆
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I guess Bethesda will go after Walmart next, as they also say their copies of Fallout 4 are "New" and not "Unopened, perfect condition".
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Gamestop also. They sell "New" copies that have been opened at full price.
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Not the same, because they have to give you a warranty, starting at the moment you buy it. So if the game doesn't work or has any problem, you have the right to ask to Walmart, or whatever official shop, for a change to another one or to a refund.
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Games have a warranty now? So I can get a crappy game that I don't like fixed to become a good game for free during the warranty time?
Great, I'll buy and return all of their ruined Fallout games and ask for them to be remade by Obsidian into good games. :)
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Nope, games don't have a warranty, the discs have warranty.
You buy box and get disc split in half - you have warranty to get new disc.
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Warranty is just an optional bonus given by the seller/importer/manufacturer, not required for anything.
https://europa.eu/youreurope/citizens/consumers/shopping/guarantees-returns/faq/index_en.htm
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And in this case Bethesda don't give warranty for games, they give warranty for discs.
So, unfortunately, you can't send FO4 back to them so they make it a good RPG.
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Depending on where you live, warranty will let you bring back your copy within a set amount of time and get a refund or get a replacement if the disc appears to not be working. Of course warranty does not cover visible damage that may be the user's fault.
I know that it was a joke, but you can actually get a refund from the manufacturer if the game does not have the features claimed on the box (for example, a game that does not work even though you fit the requirements like Batman Arkham Knight).
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If this article is true, ZeniMax/Bethesda execs first really should start thinking about to stop listening to some coked-up, desperate for cash law firm, and second I don't think they actually try to forbid all selling games second hand but try to undermine the gray market (aka unauthorized sellers) like the ones G2A and sites like that offer. Thus, I find it funny how many people condemn Bethesda for doing so regarding how vocal some get when it comes to people buying games on the latter and how bad or robin hood-like they are and how they never cease to spout their weird reasoning why, regardless if gray markets are good or bad. Anyway, this whole thing reeks of grade A stupidity, doesn't matter who.
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They are really stretching the term "materially different." It is in argument that, in this case, as a no-law educated opinion, would not prevail in court. Nonetheless, because individuals who are actually being threatened with lawsuit usually do not have the resources to fight in court, the threat is sufficient deterrence. Really shady behavior.
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https://www.polygon.com/2018/6/28/17511658/bethesda-lawsuits-fallout-elder-scrolls-prey
So they both make crappy games nobody should be buying and sue everyone for them.
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Shame on Bethesda for still not being able to fix the region editioning problem regarding Dishonored for example. A terrible company, been skipping their products ever since.
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Article
I guess their sales projections of Fallout 76 haven't been doing so well. Need to find other avenues for revenue.
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