Of course not. I just turned on the TV and this was on.
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That was actually more or less predictable, Trump is way too insane to leave quietly.
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He openly sewed his cult of personality, and now those weeds are bearing fruit. :/
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I believe that he is a disgrace to humanity.
This lying, foul-mouthed, ego-inflated, attention-seeking man-child should have never been president.
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The left teached well to the country how things works. Never expect anything else than Newton's third law.
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I dunno if police taking selfies with people breaching a government building to interfere with and/or overturn an election is an "equal and opposite reaction" to a protest against police brutality, that is met with police doing shit like firing teargas cannisters at point blank into the heads of incapacitated participants heads to deliberately maim them. ;P
Unless you meant to say that the left have been highlighting the systemic hypocrisy, and this latest event just underlines everything further, then I agree. The wording was a little hard for me to interpret clearly.
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Yeah, because police is onipresent and teleports to anywhere any time with any equipment. That's clearly how police works. :D
Oh, have to add this because your edit: Of course there's no hypocrisy beyond their acts against their own existence. Their acts were all 1 billion per cent legit and justifiable. There won't be an opposite force because equilibrium has never been a thing. ;D
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It sounds like you think you're making some kind of smooth 'gotcha' clapback here, but even trying to account for the language barrier, all I can say in reply is : Wat?
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Nope. I'm pointing to the facts you are denying using irony. I don't expect anything else but denial.
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Seems my reply to this got eaten, I'll post the shorter version :
I said that I can't make out what your post is exactly trying to say. I'm denying nothing, just saying that I can't work out what you're trying to say exactly. When I try to re-read what you say, if not the two things I mentioned, then it comes back more unflattering, so I'm trying not to put words in your mouth despite the tone I'm getting from it. If you can't clarify then it just reads as weird deflection or double standards to me. This language barrier may be too much. Though I suppose my vocabulary isn't helping either :P
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I have no idea what they're trying to say either. Usually they write quite well, this time it's somehow bonkers
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The language barrier is something we often take for granted. Either when a non-primary langauge and hand-written, or auto-translated. I always check steam profiles in case it's a factor. Given it's 2021 and times are still stressful, there's every chance they've been drinking, and tried to translate a more tricky metaphor but totally missed the mark.
If I tried to write in my usual style but translated to portuguese, it'd look like a spaghetti mess of nothing, haha. That said, there is a chance that we're witnessing just what a fringe post looks like through that filter. Who knows. I'm trying not to assume the worst but I'm not holding my breath either. The one time I really love to be proven wrong, heh.
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This will be arising where left has put feelings and hugs before law and logic.
I.E. Europe has no go zones for reasons I can't say before be labeled as X or Y.
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Yeah but these guys don't usually try it unless they have more support than random twitter trolls who skipped their meds.
It's all a pretty standard start for a coup: start bitching in advance about some phantom election fraud, incite violence, refuse results. At that point, though, the real winner of the election tends to get arrested by the military and they use "unrest" to justify curfews and arrest and media shutdowns. Ofc, Trump is too narcissistic to realize neither the military, police, and none of the federal agencies like the FBI, CIA and NSA have his back but that's the only save.
It's still a disgrace but one that was entirely predictable. Not one minute of dignity since he's taken office. Why would it change now?
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Tell me about it. I live here.
Also loved the description: random twitter trolls who skipped their meds. Too bad some of them are here on SG as well.
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At least one person was shot. There are conflicting stories. One politician claimed a woman took the police on a chase before getting fatally shot. There was a different claim that the woman was shot and is now in the hospital. Either 2 people are shot or someone's confused.
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Its time to start paying close attention again to what the police say, what the media portrays, and what emerging evidence actually shows. Given the political climate and who is getting up to these antics I doubt the officer response will reach anything remotely like the level of brutality / illegality shown during the BLM protests, but I'm expecting some degree of shitshow to slip in there all the same. Its a pretty bitter pill to see the difference in response though, especially given the subjects at the core of the two.
edit : Just saw this on twitter. I know the double standards are already known, but this is beyond taking the piss : https://twitter.com/bubbaprog/status/1346920198461419520
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Can you imagine the police response if those were black protesters storming the Capitol building? I shudder to think...
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Well, police did nothing when blm and antifa were trashing streets and people's businesses. So yeah, I can imagine.
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Nothing like in other BLM "protests" capitol may be burn down and some business too.
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If its any similar to previous years, police will just close down the street nearest to where the protests are taking place.
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That was my first thought. BLM peaceful protesters got beaten and gassed for being in the street in the same city as rioters but Trump Trolls can storm federal buildings...
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I point out the two because the politician was the only one who talked about the shooting differently. Everyone else claims the woman was hospitalized, which is why I wanted to point out that there are two stories as to what happened.
I completely agree with you.
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So peaceful that someone spontaneously grew a bullet in the head.
But yeah, its obviously 100x better that conspiracy theorists forcefully invade an important government building during a process vital to the structure of your society. Why, the Portland situation wasn't in any way complex or nuanced nor the natural manifestation of a shit-ton of documented and witnessed misuse of authority and force over many years, and the only violence was perpetuated solely by those naughty rioters. They are totally similar and comparable in every way. Great news everyone, this entire year is The Purge because a portion of the Portland protests turned into riots when people started getting fuckin permanently blinded, randomly abducted and hospitalised for challenging corruption.
Shave and a hair cut, two bits~
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Its funny because you just went from saying this, to necroing one of my threads to say (and I quote) :
"And now we are dealing with 1 billion people dying from Covid-19 lockdown"
So is this like method acting and you're doing the equivalent of a Borat but for the worst right-leaning stereotype, or...?
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Ah yes, sorry, you saw it on an influencers Youtube channel.
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It's sedition and treason. And there's only one legal and historical answer for seditioner's, treasoners, and those that lead them...
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Protesters storm Capitol, House and Senate evacuated, Electoral vote count stopped.
That's MAGA-Trumpers for you.
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USA should invade pacify USA to spread freedom among their citizens.
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Of all the things in the world, can you imagine being the most angry at Donald Trump losing something? Sad bunch of losers
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Of all the things in the world, can you imagine destroying streets and businesses because of a random criminal being shot/choked/stabbed/run over (choose whatever correct)? Sad bunch of losers.
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Angry? More like laughing at this whole situation. The very same people who were supporting this a few months ago now losing their minds. I need to grab my popcorn. :D
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not all of them were criminals, Breonna taylor certainly wasn't. And even if they were, criminals still have rights. they're still people. It's okay to be upset with the state murdering people, even if the people weren't perfect.
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It's okay to be upset, but it's not ok to looting and burning down or even killing in some cases people, who don't have any relation to an event. While I'm not exactly supporting the breach of capitol, many who are now acting shocked and angry at the current situation were supporting it back then. I'm were pointing out a bit of hypocrisy on their side.
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riots are the voice of the unheard
And i mean okay? yeah rioting aint good. what's your point? most of the murders during the many recent riots have been by cops and national gaurd member and altright members, so idk why you're acting like they'res been mob of leftists killing people during protests.
And blm protests are calling for government reform. trump's, what ever the fuck you call this is trying to interpret the political process to keep thier fascist in power. not the same thing, and not hypocritical to support a protest and not a facist takeover.
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Of all the things in the world, can you imagine destroying streets and businesses because of a random criminal being shot/choked/stabbed/run over (choose whatever correct)? Sad bunch of losers.
Everyone please mark "Whataboutism" on your bingo cards.
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Everyone please mark "Memory of a goldfish" on your bingo cards.
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Okay, let's try following your line of logic-- If said summer protests were loudly lambasted by the right, then how is reciprocating the same actions somehow defensible?
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I don't really see the right supporting them or calling them to continue to do that (majority of them at least). Many of them find the whole situation ironic though.
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Lol, and a majority of the left did not condone violent rioting either. Yet, there you are suggesting such as the foremost reasoning in your first comment.
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Whataboutism much?
You don't always have to start every argument with "But what about the other guys?"
Children do that, and it never really works.
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Trump could end this with a simple tweet... ask for his supporters to back off from the Capitol. But he's not. He must be enjoying the shit show.
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I just watched a video statement from Trump that ABC just broadcast live where he told people to go home, and he just tweeted it around the time of your comment. Whether or not that is believable, enough, or sincere is a different matter.
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He said "we love you" to them. Think he said that to the BLM protestors?
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"To each their own on what they love" doesn't apply to a president encouraging his terrorist supporters to commit crimes in his name
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He was the one who first incited the violence. I don't read the news. I read his twitter account. Are you serious?
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What terrorists?
You are aware right-wing domestic terrorism is the #1 terrorism problem in the USA right?
Antifa ranks very low on that scale.
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Yeah and instead of keeping it simple and classy, he had to mention that the election was stolen from them, that it was a fraudulent election... yada yada yada.
He was supposed to defuse the thing and yet, he could not help adding fuel to the fire.
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Except he can't now. Twitter banned him and took down his tweets.
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Thankfully without a brain behind the whole thing. If Trump had half as much brain as ego, he'd be truly dangerous.
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Sadly we are all lucky to have Trump instead of Pence, Pence is way more dangerous.
Trump is a populist, Pence is a zealot.
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saw it in the news two hours ago. this is just nuts.
you really can't envy biden. he will spend his whole presidency stitching the nation back together, repairing the damage trump has done and dealing with corona and its aftermath.
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And more than likely taking blame for things not running smoothly, while Trumps cult of personality keeps insisting that Biden is 'the left' just because he was Trumps opponent in the election.
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If the cult can split the Republican base in half it should make future elections easier.
Unfortunately Trump is just the flavor of the day, I'm afraid 2 years from now most of his fanclub will have moved on.
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The funniest part is these people saying this is "unamerican" trying to avoid in all terms how EUA has been last year.
I absolutely love how they redefined the moral grounds to cover this protest.
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You're seriously blaming this on antifa? Get out of here
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I'll just leave this here...
Far-right group Proud Boys claim they will attend January 6 DC rally 'incognito' and wear all-black to blend in with antifa protesters
I'm not saying this is what is happening but... at this point, who knows? It could be Antifa. It could be Trumpers in disguise trying to put the blame on others. I can't say I would be surprised.
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I'm sure the media are pissing off more people by disregarding that this 'protests' cause orbits around interfering with an election, and their going directly physical hands-on with the enforcement there has resulted in almost zero pushback or legal consequences compared to the other protests.
To suggest that the media are being unfair for not treating the two protests exactly the same, and pretend that the BLM protests weren't repeatedly called 'rioters' and 'thugs' and shown as such as a focus (rather than showing due diligence and showing the majority of actual peaceful organisation)... but then you also say there is too much confusion and finger-pointing? Honestly? Really dude?
As for 'too much anger', I think there's not enough anger at what these protesters are doing, or the contrasting response they have recieved. I mean this isn't a call for more police brutality, just a harrowing reminder of the double standards and another very public show that the police do very much know how to engage without abject brutality when they feel like it, even when the circumstance involves the the subject of voting and the democratic process. Even if we believe what you say and Antifa are going to adopt the agent provocateur tactics that police/proudboys all too happily use, they're already occupying the building, taking selfies with the police, and were able to do so by getting physical with the security there. How do you pull an agent provocateur when the situation has already escalated itself? At that point there is no 'covert' shit you can blame on hiding bogeymen, they already did everything themselves and everyone shrugged about it. :P
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Except for the BLM and Antifa groups that weren't burning down buildings, stealing, and tearing down statues, which still got snatched by unmarked police, maimed, and hospitalised. Again, the generalisation is a red flag here. If a group of protesters turn violent and an appropriate level of force is used to subdue and arrest, that's normal, that's expected, that's how the world turns. But that's not what we're talking about. We're talking about how ALL of them were treated as a single violent criminal monolith, which enabled the ongoing police brutality against the nonviolent members, and the media often rolled with it, instead siding with them whenever a juicy slice of pie caught the worst of the violence. Yet people keep insisting that the media magically became a one-note hivemind siding with BLM despite riding on the situation like an opportunistic parasite as it always does. Even then, it wasn't as if the violent elements was a first response that was provoked by nothing.
Meanwhile, this current protest was physical from the outset, was aimed at interfering with an important government process at the root of society, and was met with a level of counterforce that is absolutely farcicle in scale, moreso when contrasted with the deflection of "but media, but BLM". If the peaceful elements in the BLM protests couldn't even stand idle without having first aid tents (with permits) attacked by police, if press can't even cover within curfew limits without getting targetted too, then surely you see the contradiction to the current protest group marching up and directly scuffling with security at a location critical to an immediate election as their first act, right? Please tell me you grasp the hypocrisy here? How the police showed they're able to NOT default to brutality, even despite the importance of the location and unnecessary instant escalation? And surely you can then understand why 'media is being too mean about this' while in the same post pointing at BLM, and THEN even saying people are pointing too many fingers and being too angry, just really comes across as beyond just a little shortsighted and biased?
Also, I saw a photo of the 'hammer and sickle' guy. It was a tattoo from a videogame, of the 'sign of the outsider' from Dishonoured. Yeah :p
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Seen a few pics of the people that broke into the capital building having Hammer & Sickle tattoos, which some are saying means they are Antifa members (instead of just regular trump supporters) trying to escalate things
You seriously believe this? Might as well wear a tin hat if so.
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You are denying the blatant truth happening in front of your eyes to consider a conspiratorial hypothesis.
Is it so hard to admit Trump Supporters are the ones disrupting the order instead of blaming someone else?
Gee, man.
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Was it so hard to admit BLM and Antifa supporters were the ones disrupting the order instead of blaming someone else?
How is saying that something might be possible denying anything?
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Free speech after several racist killings nationwide for decades =/= Coup d'etat supported by a president and tolerated by police
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You mean rioting, looting and burning down everything on sight after one fentanyl and methamphetamine abusing junkie got killed by cops? There is nothing racist about that. Read today that black cops use equal amount of unneeded violence against black criminals so are they racist towards other black people as well?
https://www.statista.com/statistics/585152/people-shot-to-death-by-us-police-by-race/
Sadly, the trend of fatal police shootings in the United States seems to only be increasing, with a total 999 civilians having been shot, 226 of whom were Black, in 2020.
Less than 1/4 people killed by cops are black. Most black people get killed by other black people. Black people do much more crimes so obviously they get in situations where cops might kill them far more often also. But let's forget about everyone else dying since only black lives matter, right?
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Lol, wonder what this guy's true feelings are? Nazi piece of trash, take your white supremacist talking points somewhere else.
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WTF are you talking about? How are my feelings involved and why do you see facts as supremacist talking points?
Is it law abiding citizen supremacist if I say that more criminals are killed by the cops than law abiding citizens?
But yet another classic example of far left extremism, everything supporting using facts in discussion is a nazi...
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No, hating black people makes you a nazi. Isn't hard to read between the lines, you are fooling nobody
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How exactly am I hating black people? It seems to be too hard for you to read, period. Go back to your cave until you can at least read actual text instead of imagining things...
I guess that makes you a Stalinist Communist then, I read that between the letters so it must be a fact.
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It's funny how an European's view is somehow immediately racist to radical Americans.
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I guess I should be racist against you as well since you're a dirty foreigner but at least you're from one of the good countries on par with Nordic ones and you have nice coffee shops and salmiak candy so I'll let it slide this time. :P
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I only bother when I find it amusing to trash obvious lies and attacks against facts and statistics. He's just like some Russian users here, when I trash their Soviet Union they automatically assume that I'm pro-USA. Both extremes see everyone not agreeing with their violent ways as an enemy on the other side even when a huge majority simply isn't on either side.
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Statista is a German company specializing in MARKET and CONSUMER DATA.
Nice source you got there.
Also, no one here said police kill more black people than white ones. So your numbers are both unreliable and not needed.
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Find me a better source then if you want, that was the first on Google. Why is that always so hard for people to do instead of just claiming something must be wrong based purely on the source? Could it be that hard to admit that any other source could tell the same thing?
Also I didn't say cops kill more white people than black either. You call it racism when cops kill a black criminal but justice when cops kill a white criminal. Meanwhile I only see cops killing criminals. So facts and statistics are both unreliable and not needed, right.
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https://www.washingtonpost.com/graphics/investigations/police-shootings-database/
Black Americans killed at 34 per million citizens
White Americans killed at 14 per million citizens
So over double the rate
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https://www.ojjdp.gov/ojstatbb/crime/ucr.asp?table_in=2
https://www.census.gov/quickfacts/fact/table/US/PST045219
Black people arrested for all offences: 38%
Black people in the population: 13.4%
Almost triple the rate and you fail to see the connection? If you do 3x the crimes and only get killed 2x for it, then that actually means that the system favors you.
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You're clearly the one failing to see the connection. You think you are favored by the system if you are arrested 3x the normal amount and killed 2x the normal amount? Just bending over backwards
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Also, Moontouched numbers are about racial killing by cops, not overall offences.
You are again trying to change subject by pasting unrelated figures.
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No you get arrested 3x amount when you do 3x the crimes, but yet you get killed only 2x. Why is it so hard to see that criminals are killed by cops and if you do more crimes you're more likely to get killed by cops and this has nothing at all to do with race. This is like elementary school math you know?
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You do realize what you are implying here with your numbers, right?
You are saying cops kill more black people just because black people (supposedly) commit more crimes. But you don't have the guts to say it, so you use numbers instead.
And we were not even discussing BLM. You brought it up just to make racist implications.
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Huh? That's literally what I have been saying all this time even multiple times. So you're saying that facts from the US government are just supposed fake news? Something isn't implied when it's stated out openly...
How do you explain it that black cops are equally likely to kill black criminals with unnecessary use of force as white cops? Are they racist fascists are well or just cops vs criminals?
BLM and Antifa have been the main rioters of 2020 and done it in a far more violent and destructive way than what happened today. So obviously it's easy to make fun of people defending one and attacking the other.
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No, you're making an assumption that institutional racism doesn't exist, when it has its own role in the outcome. You think the ratio between race for legitimate process isn't skewed in such an event?
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I never said it can't exist, only that it gets inflated to something far more major than it actually is when there is a far more obvious explanation to the majority of the differences in stats. Please explain to me why black cops also kill black criminals? Are they racist fascists as well? Or the latinos like OJ. But yet again only white cops get blamed for it by some people, that must mean that all cops are white or something.
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I will not jump into all this stuff but:
Statista is buying data from trustworthy sources all over the world.
If you would have an account you could seem that the source of the data is "Washington Post".
Statista is not a bad source and is not left or right or anything. The numbers here are just used out of context.
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Just curious, how can statistics about a context be out of context?
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If you take this statistic it shows the absolut numbers. With your quote it looks like that more white people get shot and in absolut numbers this might be true but not in relative numbers.
in a group of 20 people there are 5 people with green pants and 15 people with red pants. All there people are equal and the only different is the color of the pants.
4 "green" guys and 5 "red" guys get beaten up by some yellow pants guys...
Yes, more red pants get beaten up totally but:
4 out of 5 are 80% while 5 out of 15 is only 33%
So it looks like the chances of get your ass kicked by "yellow pants" is much higher when you wear a green.
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You're forgetting the part where the green pants people go shout obscenities at every yellow pants person they can find 3x as often and then wonder why the statistics are like that. Let's fix the numbers.
5 green pants guys try to harass yellow pants guys while 5 red pants guys do the same. That means 100% of green and 33% of red are doing it. So for red the rate of getting beat up because of their own actions is 100% while greens only have 80% making the system favor them by the 20%.
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I don't forget anything because I did only talk about 20 people that are not even real.
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So you were in fact the one who took the statistics out of context, not me. We just have to look at all statistics to see relations between them, not focus on 1 at a time completely out of context.
If you do more crime then you're more likely to be killed by the cops, a simple causality if any.
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Do your thing but I don't play your game.
You can simply try to read my comments.
Fact is:
- in absolute numbers more white people got shoot by police (That's what you linked in your comments)
- in relative numbers more black people got shoot by police (That's what criticized by the "blm")
That's it. not more, not less.
I'm done with this conversation.
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I do simple logic, if that's not your thing then why bother to even talk about statistics?
The fact still is:
In relative numbers less black criminals get shot by police than non-black criminals. Just like the statistics above show a non-black criminal is 1.5x more likely to get shot than a black criminal. Black people do 3x the crime compared to their part of the population and yet only get shot 2x more. So police killings actually favor them and their own actions cause the increased relativity because of other increased relativities. See how the numbers change when we're talking about criminals of any color getting shot instead of the general population who doesn't do much serious crime on average.
So this is obviously not the problem but the reasons why the black people do more crime are. For example the inability of black people to own houses in many places. And these segregation problems were made much worse by Obama/Biden and improved by Trump/Pence, go figure. Come back when you're ready to accept all the facts, not just parts you like.
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That's how some coups start, you usually just need to cause some chaos in the capital of a country at a point in time when things are already touchy. It's not that hard to break a democracy when people are disgruntled.
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During an important government process.
That stopped the electorial process they were doing.
Getting access to the premises where sensitive information can be located.
In support of someone who has told proudboys to 'stand back and stand by'.
And has been firing dissenters, and threatening people with influence to garner support.
Who in hearings to examine their allegations, have found zero compelling evidence. Repeatedly. Even by their own members.
Who now have access and capacity to plant evidence.
Which has synchronised with occupation (and attempted occupation) of other buildings, in other states.
This isn't just some random building, and its not just a random time my dude.
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yeah, but if you ignore all the context this really ain't any worse than the people who stormed McDonald's after they ran put of sezchen sauce. yeah, it's stupid, but it's harmless, I don't see why everyone's making a big deal out of it.
you people want to make everything political, I don't see how you can possibly connect messing with the us capital building and interrupting an electoral conformation with politics, it's just some good ol' boys playing around, nothing to worry about.
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It MIGHT be harmless. The strange underground support for Trump's staying in office might be an indication that things might not be. Don't see how it's strange to make such a connection given that they're there for a political purpose? Context usually is important.
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To be fair, you genuinely had me in the first half.
In your defense, the degrees of absurdity we're seeing make it really hard to determine what is genuine and what is parody. I nearly whispered "Oh, thank fuck" when I started on the second half. Y'little rascal you. <3
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yeah, but if you ignore all the context this really ain't any worse than the people who stormed McDonald's after they ran put of sezchen sauce. yeah, it's stupid, but it's harmless, I don't see why everyone's making a big deal out of it.
The woman who got shot during the chaos died because of political division. Therefore, I wouldn't call this so-called protest "harmless."
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Antifa could cause havoc every day against many possible federal targets. Timing and location are pretty obvious.
Now one could always think of a PR stunt, trying to provoke blaming to your enemy, but imho that's overrated, confusing for members of both sides without proper planning.. and the majority of the attendants doesn't seem able to think so far.
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You don't know much about Antifa, do you? Their entire goal is to cause anarchy, so it is very much a possibility they would do this.
Quite ironic to write that, when it highlights your own lack of knowledge. All anarchists are antifa, but only a minority of antifa is anarchistic.
And therefor anarchy can't be "their entire goal". That's actually to stop or prevent fascism. Duh.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Antifaschistische_Aktion
No their goal is destroying democratic societies with violence until everything collapses and can be replaced with the Soviet Union. That just has never worked in history of Earth.
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In the postwar era, the historical organisation inspired new groups and networks, known as the wider antifa movement
Maybe you'll figure out if we speak about the antifa group from the 1920s or today. And if you do find the article about today's antifa, you'll read this:
Anti-fascism has been an element of movements across the political spectrum and holding many different political positions such as anarchism, communism, pacifism, republicanism, social democracy, socialism and syndicalism as well as centrist, conservative, liberal and nationalist viewpoints.
You disappointed me.
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Maybe you'll figure out that using the same name carries the historic meaning and ideology with it. Would you believe in National Socialism today which is about protecting the nature and human rights? Yeah me neither, which is why I never believe the Marxists either when they try to make their agenda appear something completely different to fool people.
Or maybe you should stop seeing western democracy and capitalism and fascism?
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Okay, so it doesn't matter what ideas people actually represent, only their chosen name matters. Got it.
I honestly have no idea what "Or maybe you should stop seeing western democracy and capitalism and fascism?" is supposed to mean.
And after your comments so far, I actually don't want read more about it.
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Yes the actual ideas matter, not the ones used as PR BS to fool people into supporting something violent. If you would get it you would study more what they are about instead of believing everything they say outright.
That's what your precious Antifa has always been and will be about: hating western democracy and capitalism and justifying it by calling them fascism. They aren't rioting against actual fascism in Russia, China etc etc places but against democracy and society. So by supporting their cause you obviously side yourself against those as well. Just like wearing a swastika armband would mean something.
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Okay, then I'll have to accept my fate and will start to undo democracy and capitalism right away. Shame, considering that I'm an economist and member of a democratic party.
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Yet you support violent rioters and try to justify their looting and burning everything down? That's the democratic way there or what? Or did you figure the rebuilding of everything after the riots will boost the economy?
Have you ever thought at least for a moment that both extremes can actually be wrong? You really don't have to pick one or the other.
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Explaining to you what antifascism means and/or stating to support only antifascism (as a term) doesn't include supporting the Antifa "organisation" and protests and justifying looting or violent protest at all.
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Using their marketing BS as facts about them while ignoring all actual actions done by them is supporting them. If you pick one extreme just because the other one is bad that just means you're both equally bad.
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You are the one just talking about extremes. If there's a peaceful protest against fascism and I attend it, it doesn't matter to me if it's organised by Antifa, left democratic parties, unions, social or welfare organisations etc. pp.
And it's my personal integrity and responsibility to stay peaceful there.
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What fascism might that be? And you call what has been happening through 2020 peaceful protests?
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Well, we still have fascists and Neonazis here and there are attacks against foreigners, asylees, migrants, handicapped persons ..
With 2020 you are probably referring to the protests only in the US. While I can't claim that they were all peaceful, because I haven't been there, I highly doubt that all individual at all protests in the US became violent.
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Sure, I have always said that ship anarchists, Nazis and all other similar shit people to some remote island where they can do a battle royale and the winner gets to be right and rule their own island.
Yes doesn't make much sense to compare riots in other countries to this, like Hong Kong for example. There I actually side with the rioters because they are on the right side against actual fascism. Or Russia, Belarus etc countries where actual fascism rules with an iron fist.
It doesn't require all to become violent if enough of them are to cause city wide chaos and destruction.
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Huh? I never claimed anything else. I actually said that all anarchists are antifa and I certainly don't support their agenda.
But I also said that they are only a minority among antifa. If you struggle to differ on that level, that's entirely up to you.
But I'm amazed how I can constantly read about all of antifa being bad and violent, while there is an instant doubt if there could be enough bad apples among the hardcore Trump supporters or if those people weren't actually antfia.
So yeah, please spare me the suggestion that you'd try a fair judgment of both sides.
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You see Antifa so clearly but fail to see what the "fascism" they fight against actually is. All anarchists are anti-society and anti-democracy as well, not just fascism. It just sounds way cooler to fight against the big bad Hitler fascism than to say you want to burn your own country to the ground.
When have I said that Trump supporters aren't bad or violent? They are all the same shit. You see how you don't have to pick a side when you use actual facts about both sides and see them as equally bad? USA and Russia are equally bad as well, both 3rd world countries lead by despots.
Spare me the hypocrisy of must be a Nazi if it's not a Stalinist.
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Spare me the hypocrisy of must be a Nazi if it's not a Stalinist.
I haven't called anyone a Nazi. I haven't suggested that all not sitting together in one boat or opposing another group are Nazis. Or anything else.
You are the only one constantly running this mindset. Don't project your own limitations onto others.
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Well replace Nazis with Trump supporters and Stalinists with Antifa if it makes the point clearer. I just used extreme piles of shit to compare these lesser piles of shit we have today to illustrate how both are bad, didn't mean to say you said someone is a Nazi.
That's the mindset of the "anti-fascists" anarchists and you see that as my limitation how exactly? They are the ones calling everyone disagreeing with violent anarchy as fascist Nazis.
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All anarchists are anti-society and anti democracy
My, my. You have not read a single anarchist book in your life, did you? Before spreading such foolish ideas on the internet, try reading at least some Wikipedia articles about it.
Anarchist ideology is against Capitalism, Church and State (and, therefore, political elections). Anarchists are against fake bourgeois democracy, not against democracy itself.
Quite the opposite, in fact. They are advocates of true democracy and mutual aid.
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Do you even know what the word anarchy means? https://www.oxfordlearnersdictionaries.com/definition/american_english/anarchy
Socialism is against Capitalism, National Socialism is against Bourgeois Capitalism, Atheism is against Church and Anarchism is against any kind of State just like I said.
In actual anarchy there is no democracy at all and far more violent crimes than mutual aid as has been proven time after time in history.
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Do you even know what the word anarchy means?
The WORD Anarchism derives from anarchy just to denote it is against (state) government.
The MEANING of Anarchism is completely different.
Socialism is against Capitalism
Anarchism is also known as Libertarian SOCIALISM.
You are welcome.
In actual anarchy there is no democracy at all and far more violent crimes than mutual aid as has been proven time after time in history.
Educate yourself, son: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Spanish_Revolution_of_1936
Also, I am quite sure that as an anarchist and teacher who majored in political philosophy I know what Anarchism is.
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Yeah right. People who are for Libertarian Socialism are called drum roll Libertarian Socialists. Anarchy means that everyone is free to riot and nobody can stop them. It might work if there is some other -ism like religions binding a small group of people together but actual anarchy of today looks exactly like those violent riots. People trying to use force to make others do their will since there is nothing stopping them until a state kicks in and uses more force against them.
Let's see. 3 months of actual anarchy at the beginning in 1936 where violent rioters stole everything other people owned using force. Then some months of just limiting what the state can do, not removing it. And in the end it died on its own impossibility when the government (in anarchy lul) banned their newspaper. Yeah sounds about right.
You are welcome to learn the actual meaning of words so you can use the right ones instead of keep making up new meanings for other words. That just tells more about how sad your education system must be than anarchism.
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So you are one of those guys who believe Nazis were Socialists?
Because following your logic, Nationalsozialismus = Socialism.
Meaning of words, right?
The lack of knowledge and abundance of prejudice in your ideas and words were making me sad before.
Now it is just amusing.
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Exactly and I guess you're a leftist denialist who can see nothing wrong with Socialism ever even when it gave us both Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. History just doesn't change like that even if all the Communist countries are busy rewriting history for every new leader. They were just 2 different kinds of Socialist, Nazis were against the Marxist/Bolshevist types of Socialism but also against Western Capitalism because both apparently were Jewish conspiracies. Just because Hitler was insane from syphilis and methamphetamine abuse doesn't mean that the origins of the party somehow changed. It just illustrates perfectly what Socialism leads to if not controlled by other political ideals in a democracy.
The lack of knowledge seems to be completely on your side. Do you as a teacher you advocate using random words for something they never meant just to hide what they truly are? Have you ever heard of the Soviet Union?
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It doesn't require all to become violent if enough of them are to cause city wide chaos and destruction.
Tell this to Trump supporters who LITERALLY smashed a building that is not only PUBLIC but also a symbol of 'DEMOCRACY':
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They smashed couple windows and fences. You're still comparing that to burning and looting down whole streets full of buildings, not just 1.
It's no symbol of real democracy, it has never been. It's symbol of using guns and more guns to almost genocide other people just to steal their land, then using guns to bring in slaves to fund the country. Also a symbol of invading and bombing down any foreign country that has oil. If you think that's democracy then I'm not surprised that you didn't know what anarchy means.
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It would be the worst choice, granted. But Nationalsozialismus isn't really natural/logical name for any group, while anti-fascist seems pretty well suited for ... let's say anyone opposing fascism?
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Its also pretty coincidental that the Anti-fascists primary opponents have repeatedly used slogans from literal nazism as openly as wearing them on shirts, or worn symbols of the historical group, and there was little to no concern about it nor attempt to purge them. And yet Antifa are the ones who are apparently dragging negative baggage with their name? It was their opponents who popularised 'Antifa', as the term 'Anti-fascist' was too descriptive and harder to spin the intents of.
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Why can't it be both? One side just claims they are somehow innocent and superior when they are equal piles of shit.
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Nah, just realism. I mean we literally have a Centre party and they are the worst because they'll side with either side just to get into the government and then betray both their voters and ideals just to stay there.
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Exactly, Centrism is bullshit.
So, stop acting like you support such a line of thinking. "Both sides"-ing is nauseating.
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I'm supporter of realism like I have always said. I don't believe in any other -ism telling me how to think instead of using my own brain. You're confusing this with never agreeing with either extreme side about anything or always agreeing with the winning side. I'll agree with them about things they are right about, even if their other opinions are clearly wrong.
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Personally, I'm gonna side with the anti-fascists, rather than the pro-fascists.
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So you will side with Stalin to fight Hitler. Great choice, most people wouldn't choose either you know.
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You say that, but we still find you here in the trenches.
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So you imagine based on your own very limited world view. What exactly do you imagine I'm fighting for or against in these trenches? For facts and logic against violent anarchy? Yeah that side I'll always take. Maybe you should just stop making up opinions for me and focus on your own instead?
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All I said was that you're here, despite implying picking a side is an equal wrong move. I will now also add to that very simple reply, to say your posts have a certain heavy trend in which direction the criticism is directed. Your freshly made implication that you are being impartial and only about facts and logic, while contorting impressively to project negatively onto me, is beyond hollow.
Stick to reality. No 'imagination' required, Starwhite. I made up no such opinions for you. I merely observed the immediate, and held you to your own standard. It was literally a 12-word reply that was an impartial observation. The rest was all your own creation.
If you actually hold any remote value in actual facts or logic, then when you are feeling more lucid, you should consider reflecting on these bizarre acrobatics you just pulled with rehearsed automation.
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You said that I'm here in the TRENCHES making the meaning quite different as in taking a side in a war. You see some kind of trenches while I don't. You're the one projecting negativity and imagined motivations on me and then you get surprised if I respond in kind? Not talking about just this thread either.
My criticism is directed at those who pretend to be somehow morally superior while being equally shitty. I mean I have some standards, making fun of Trump supporters is like shooting fish in a barrel with a bazooka. And because I like challenges I take the harder route of going against the other side which claims to be all about peace and happiness while obviously not.
There you go again, imagining that I need to somehow be not lucid to have the exact same opinions I've always had which are based on only realism, no other -ism of any kind. If you find logic to be bizarre acrobatics then I think it's you that should get some sleep or something.
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You literally said the words : "So you will side with Stalin to fight Hitler. Great choice, most people wouldn't choose either you know", but now you're saying you 'dont see trenches' and thats all me? Really?
Then you say your criticism is "directed at those who pretend to be somehow morally superior while being equally shitty", and yet my 12-word reply that started you on your tirade merely pointed out that you're down here with the rest of us, meaning your criticism also holds you in your own crosshairs, which you reacted badly to.
Do you need me to screenshot it again?
Its like, right there.
I really don't get what part of this you're finding so hard to follow, nor why you consistently feel the need to project 'imaginings'.
And yes, we have history. I don't like you, but I still at least try to engage on a certain level of cordiality which you consistently convert into fresh spiels about literally imagined "imaginings", and clasically also ending with an accusation of me making stuff up about you. That's pretty much why I don't like you, its the bonkers whole ass-out hypocrisy. Even if it isn't a willing dishonesty and this is some kind of defensive reaction, its still really obnoxious, especially when paired with the self-evaluation of being all about facts and logic. Its pretty bizarre. But since you're a regular here I occasionally feel like being a dumbass on occasion and trying to see if you've chilled your shit out.
Guess not :P
Anyway, I'm not willing to stick around and watch you build an entire dollhouse family of strawmen over nothing again. Have fun I guess.
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It's not worth the time or effort to converse with a person who argues in bad faith. I commend you for duking it out as long as you did.
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I still don't side with either so how can I be in any trenches? How do you imagine a war works? Trenches full of neutral civilians? Being in the trenches means that you're fighting for one side against the other and not saying both sides are bad because war is bad from far away.
Your 12 word reply this and your 12 word reply that, how about making an actual point instead of building them out of straws and only having 12 word reply as some kind of argument?
There is nothing hypocritical or dishonest in my opinions, yet you still make up stuff about them. I'm always chill and calm like I have said several times, yet people imagine for me that I'm not. Yes that is really obnoxious. How about you follow your own advice? I always return back what has been brought to the table, so with some people I'm having obnoxious arguments and with others civilized discussions, go figure.
I always have fun, I fail to see the point in not.
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Most people wouldn't say both sides are bad when choosing to fight fascism, but you do you big guy
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You fight imagined fascism with violent anarchy and see nothing wrong with this. You do you little Stalinist.
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Wtf.. I don't need to side up with Stalin (thankfully it isn't even possible anymore) to confront a fascist. As a grown up you should be able to stand your own grounds without hiding behind a political ideology, leader or organisation.
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A real fascist or a capitalist democrat? That's the main point, they are calling everything they don't like as fascism to justify their violent anarchy. Have you ever stopped to think where the actual fascism is happening today instead of believing anarchists?
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If I see someone verbally or physically attacking another person because of their origin or skin colour, it's a (Neo)Nazi/racist/fascist for me and I will interfere. And I would expect the same from my friends.
Looks like you are only talking about the grand scheme.. like the BLM protests and stuff. However, even then: you don't need to attack anyone personally while protesting (by claiming them to be a racist, e.g.), so you don't need evidence that your possible enemy is a fascist/racist. You can just protest against the thing. And yes, without violence or looting.
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Skin color = racist, just racist is required to describe them. Well also a biology 101 drop-out since there is just 1 human race. You can be against them without calling them a Nazi or fascist. It's really that simple when you use words for their actual meanings. So we agree that you don't have to make up new insults to call everyone who disagrees with you, just call them what they are and that's enough.
There has been much more violence and destruction in the riots of 2020 and you still call them peaceful protests and this something worse when statistics show that the number of people killed or injured is far lower (at least thus far) not to talk about the amount of property damage. So don't support violent anarchists just to fight against something, fight against them as well.
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It's just like the pseudo election fraud, really. Just because something is a possibility, doesn't mean it's what's going on unless proven otherwise.
Trump is making a pretty clear case against himself, by himself.
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So you are saying you have a theory based on a hunch? And you have zero evidence to back any of it up?
And you are the authority here on Antifa?
You shouldn't even have mentioned that kind of theory without some kind of evidence. It does not help your case at all, anyone with half a brain will not believe anything else you say when you cry wolf like that.
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Your original claim was that you saw photos. As in, you, personally, had seen more than one photo. So it seems you fell prey to confirmation bias. An easy mistake to make, but one you stepped into quite readily all the same.
A reasonable deduction must also factor in inherant biases when the source is an unreliable narrator (due to tribalism), and clear a certain passing level of scrutiny. Not trying to rail on you here, but you really dropped the ball in your hurry to align with your pre-existing interests. Now might be a good time to take a brief step back and re-evaluate. Being pissed at a political opponent can do funky things to the best of us, but if we get overly focused on just taking opponents down a peg or two at any expense, we can pretty quickly find ourselves justifying, defending or being permissive of the dumbest of things.
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https://mobile.twitter.com/AF632/status/1346924400432488451/photo/1
You mean this Hammer & Sickle tattoo that Corvo from Dishonored has?
🤡🤡🤡
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The phrase 'Fiery but mostly peaceful' springs to mind.
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Trump Votes Matter!
Why are people so surprised that the cops didn't stop the breach when most cops voted for Trump or do I remember that wrong?
Also the National Guard of Washington is under the command of Pentagon so they also chose their side when they weren't sent there in advance and only after someone got shot.
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Once again, Trump proves himself a self-serving, useless piece of shit.
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i just checked over my bug out bag wile watching the fun.
people thought 2021 would be better.
another world power is gonna make a move against america during the chaos and ww3 will begin
the corporations will take over
the world will be destroyed and the human race will be forced into space.
the 99% will no longer be exploited for currency but for air and water.
it all starts now...
im gonna go play video games, smoke pot, and touch myself. come get me when its time to get on the space ark that Mc.Disnooglbookmazon inc has been working on for 20 years.
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the corporations will take over
Hahaha, as if they don't rule us already.
100% with you on your last line tho ;)
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2021 sounds like a great year to treat ourselves to a bugout bag.
Sadly there's not exactly anywhere a lot of us can go. Good on you if you have a place you can bail to.
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i do actually have a bug out bag, and i did grab it, all i did was add one of my baby trump balloons to it.
im not a paranoid person, i dont actually think this is the end... the greys havent finished there human hybrid dna program yet.
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I see 2020 continues...
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I don't see what is the problem here. I thought protests of similar or even much bigger intensity became the norm in the US in the last half a year. "Fiery but mostly peaceful protest is not generally speaking unruly"©™ At least nobody thrashing streets and businesses this time.
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Yes, because respectfully dismantling the fabric of your democracy to support a totalitarian wannabe is better than a bunch of fucktards taking advantage of human rights protests to destroying shit and hurt people.
I bet you also admire white-collar criminals for their ingenuity? It takes skill to silently destroy the lives of thousands or more all at once.
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Oh look another political shitstorm, those usually tend to go good.
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I'm pretty sure most of you will recognize the "hammer and sickle" tattoo
Yep, totally ANTIFA, trump supporters are innocent, nothing to see here /s
https://mobile.twitter.com/AF632/status/1346924400432488451
spoiler: it's the outsider's mark of dishonored
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Excuse me sir, I believe you dropped this
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I'm getting tired of how much of a shitstorm the last couple of years have been, I wake up from a nap and find my family watching TV and they tell me how the US is basically going through an attempted coup, and my internal reaction is "good thing it's not our country this time". I'm tired of being used to shit hitting the fan, can the world stop being a dumpster fire, please?
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As long as the existence of the country pursues "the interests of the people", it will continue to burn.
For example, did you recently announce that Russia (or China, as Trump says) had hacked?
US: Hack of federal agencies 'likely Russian in origin' - ABC News
Opinion: The SolarWinds hack is stunning. Here's what should be done - CNN
Russia blamed for SolarWinds hack in joint FBI, NSA and CISA statement - CNET
For now, both sides should be aware of "avoiding bloodshed".
It is undeniable that some intervention from outside the United States is the distant cause.
In modern society, we just love the cause of justice, "for our own country," and instead consider "human beings in other countries" as "Human-shaped beast" and are closer to "cannibalism."
Sadly.
Will the "voting" mechanism for "democracy" become obsolete and replaced in the future?
Will the framework of the country gradually disappear?
Is it going the other way?
It may be time for such a choice.
Choice that exceeds the best. That's Spacer's Choice😉
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I don't know to what extent there has been outside interference, I'm sure that's a constant thing when it comes to international politics, but I don't think that's the only factor to blame here, there has to have been deep rooted problems that simply got pushed to the surface.
Democracy is a fragile thing, if trust in it debilitates it can go down the drain pretty quickly, they should probably consider doing away with their overly complicated voting system and implementing a more straightforward one to avoid this happening again.
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An option when you can't afford to bring in a new election system?
I think we have no choice but to call the UN election monitoring team.
Elections | Department of Political and Peacebuilding Affairs
USA have been urging other countries to do so.
And should be "trusted".
If the United States does not believe in the United Nations, it may use force as "the cause lies in another country!".😨
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The US treats the UN as their own personal tool to wield against other countries, I don't know if they're willing to listen to them, they routinely ignore the OEA (I think it's OAS in English).
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I get my news from Steam community hub so I had no idea this was happening until I saw this thread. In other news, Beat Hazard 2 just received an update
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Heh I'm pretty much the same.
I was on a plane when it started and when we landed people were checking their news feed and I'm like "oooh Hitman 3? Nice" and everyone else around me: "is there a coup going on in DC???"
So yeah my first look wasn't on the big news, I feel bad but hey still...
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Soo... if I'm right things happenned:
1) Shady practices during election - a.k.a. election fraud
2) A group of people decide to actually do something about it moments before it's too late.
3) The same people are universally branded as "literal terrorists", becoming demons in the public eye.
4) Anything said about election fraud becomes supporting said people.
5) Congrats, elections frauds become standard procedure. Good luck living in 1 party state.
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You aren't right, so no need to worry about your list past "point" number 1.
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I see. Why would anybody storm the Capitol right now then?
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Because they believe their opinion has more value and importance than evidence, due process or the opinion of the collective rest of their nation.
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1) Vastly investigated and debunked. Has had time in court to allow those who claim there was fraud to present their findings, evidence, etc, and each time it was thrown out due to lack of evidence, sometimes the actual total absense of any evidence, compelling or otherwise. Even experts that support the party that 'lost' have confirmed as such.
2) A group of people ignore the constant, ongoing dismissal, and instead of presenting actual evidence as per normal proceedings, decide to essentially ignore the actual democratic process, believing their opinions to be greater than all aspects of the whole system.
3) Given they marched up to a building important to the process, immediately became physical, then occupied the building during the time of the process, they are rightfully observed to be attempting to interfere. Factually. With evidence.
4) Anything repeating debunked election fraud -conspiracy- is then treated as more of the same empty rhetoric. If there was anything with actual substance, yes, it would be assumed to be false given the sheer overwhelming volume of bluster, incompetence and deliberate misinformation that has been used to muddy the waters. However if any actual substance or evidence was found, it would be presented in court. However no such thing has surfaced or been presented, therefore the ongoing rhetoric without substance has become its own biggest discrediting force. People have naturally observed this trend, and are increasingly jaded. Now even moreso when the people claiming fraud without evidence, are overtly interfering with a critical building where a critical process undergoes, and is in fact a golden opportunity to CREATE fraud, as things may be planted or altered by what are essentially followers of a cult of personality at this point.
5) Your bias is showing more than just a little, btw.
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Has had time in court to allow those who claim there was fraud to present their findings, evidence, etc, and each time it was thrown out due to lack of evidence, sometimes the actual total absense of any evidence, compelling or otherwise. Even experts that support the party that 'lost' have confirmed as such.
Those judges and election experts must be undercover ANTIFA agents.
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You can't debunk USA abolished the gold standard around WW2 and is under a fiat currency ever since and we are born with abundance but all paying to live on the planet we were born on. I could understand why they feel like elections are a fraud as why haven't these countries created passive income to lower the taxes that way?
My country wouldn't bailout bankers instead let capitalism run its course and others to buy up and allocate the resources more efficiently. My gas would be cheap for its citizens and the arctic would be lit up with THC concentrates of the highest grade, but we only accept bitcoin and we also mine it and have free basic electricity for every tax payer.
Soon peace will be more profitable than war. <3
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I'm... what.
What is this. I can't even.
I should have known my sarcasm/parody radar would break in 2021.
I have no idea what to do with this post. How to read it, in what tone, whether it's serious or hyperbolic, trying to be related to the reply chain or a leaping aside. I really just can't. Its like a cognitohazard in my squishy gray brainmeats. What do I do with this?
I left my hazmat suit in the dry cleaners. Help?
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That post was clearly authored by some sort of unfinished AI.
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1) I was not aware of that (I'm not American, so American news come to my knowledge at different times and with random selection of content really), but I did some digging just now and found that Trump's lawyers indeed dropped fraud allegations when in court hearing (1 and 2).
Which of course leaves points 2-5 (mine, not yours) unworthy of attention, because they rely very much on the 1st point.
2) Yeah, with new info at hand I can't disagree. As a counterpoint though - America was partially founded on somebody barging in and throwing away some tea to show that tyrannical decisions made without consent of the people concerned will not take place in American colonies. Current situation could be seen as parallel perhaps?
3) Interfering is interfering. That's what they did. No arguing here. When I said earlier "literal terrorists", I did so knowing that disturbing the process and being threatening with your presence or action is terrorising, but assumed it would be the main way of undermining protesters' efforts instead of addressing the crux of the matter. But it was addressed already, and I just didn't know that, so instead of being underhanded tactic of diverting attention, it's just another argument against current protests.
4) After reading a bit on 1), I can't disagree.
5) Yeah, a little. Let's chalk it up to being a hypotethical scenario, eh?
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Thats fair. I'm from the UK myself, so this is all something of a high-profile observer sport at the moment, heh.
We always see things through the lens of things we've experienced close to home, and I can appreciate how without keeping tabs on the political climate, their efforts may seem more honest and genuine. You were erring on the side of preventing a potential injustice, which is admirable even if it set off with accidental misinformation. Its why I always regard politics in countries i'm less familiar with with a bit of paranoid caution. The good intentions of good people are a great weapon for those willing to use misinformation, and when looking into another nation we're particularly vulnerable to seeing a skewed picture. Such is the sad way of modern politics and the back and forth oceans of misinformation.
Its all good.
I mean, back in the day I almost got suckered by the "Kony 2012" thing. Its also why before I donate to any charities, I google them to make sure they're not a weird front or have a history of nasty stuff. Fun world that we live in, eh?
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It should also be noted that Trump made similar allegations after the last election. Due to how the American election system works, it's possible to win the popular vote, but still lose the election. After the last election the results were:
Trump: 62,984,828
Hillary: 65,853,514
Trump claimed election fraud here as well Source and it was investigated. It was, much like with this election, found that there were no evidence of this widespread election fraud that he claimed was there, or that Hillary got millions of illegal votes. So him shouting fraud where there's none is nothing new.
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WTF!?!!
Did this country go insane and I didn't get the memo?? 😲
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w_Ma8oQLmSM
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