Should nearly free games be treated differently than bundled games?
I think 4 categories would be good as long as it doesn't overcomplicate things for the people who do the bundling. Maybe have unbundled, bundled, nearly free, and free. Games get bundled at 95% off and nearly free is 99% or more off. I'm not sure if nearly free should get 1% value though, it might be a little too low.
Comment has been collapsed.
as long as it doesn't overcomplicate things for the people who do the bundling.
I'm already glad when the bundle list is somewhat uptodate. Making it even more work for support will be a nightmare.
Ticket response-times aren't showing any head-room for that.
Comment has been collapsed.
I'm not sure if it will create much more work. If a game is over 95% off, someone has to create a support ticket and the bundler has to check the price and add it to the bundle list. If a game is over 99% off, they should do the same thing, but just add it to the nearly free list instead of bundled. I'm sure it will be a bit more work to program the site for the change though.
Maybe someone should create a program where you enter the US retail price of the game and the sale price and chose the country or currency that the sale price is in. The program will automatically go online to get the current exchange rates from google or another site and then tell you what percent the discount is or just say bundled or nearly free.
Comment has been collapsed.
First world problems. Now, please explain why I should care about the other people's CV?! xD
Comment has been collapsed.
Their CV is what determines the value of your CV. If people exploit the CV system to artificially inflate their CV, then it makes the CV system worthless. If you don't care about their CV, then you don't care about your own CV. If that is the case, then you are a better person than most and give for the sake of giving and not gaining CV :)
Comment has been collapsed.
I just don't find the importance in this kind of things. And I can't really make giveaways anymore, so yeah, I also don't care about the CV. :P By the way, with the same logic, I'm a shitty person when I cheated in an exam and took a better grade than the girl that helped me cheat by showing me her answers (you know, it's like using an easier way than the others in order to achieve the same or a better result than them). Heh, that made her angry. xD Additionally, why do you think they're doing something bad? They didn't get the games for free. They paid something, no matter how small their price was. You just think that they have to gain the cv in the exact same way that you did.
Comment has been collapsed.
The CV system is meant to be a way to show how much value an individual user has given to the community so that if someone wants to restrict their giveaways to people that have given more to the community, they can. When people give away a game they got for $0.03, but the CV system gives them credit for $2.40, they are getting credit for 80 times the value they have actually paid.
I am not saying the users that do this are wrong, I have done it myself. It is just a way of gaming the system without breaking the rules and this is what businesses around the world do every day, they try to find weaknesses or loopholes in the laws and take advantage of them. It is part of competition and if you don't take advantage of it while your competitor does, you will fall behind.
I don't have any problem with people doing this, but I am in support of changing the way the system works to prevent this and make it more fair for everyone.
Comment has been collapsed.
There are also times that I have paid a lot of money for a game to give away here, but I have got a CV lower than the price I paid. Maybe the system exploits....ME? :P The CV system was never fair anyway. Someone may give 5 euros for a game and get 5 euros as CV, but another person may give 1 euro for the same game and get 5 euros as CV too. :P Unless we implement traceability (heh, like we're talking about HACCP here) on steamgifts, the CV system will always be unfair.
Comment has been collapsed.
Group giveaways are a prime example of this. I've had several unbundled giveaways for groups that due to the groups having ratio rules or such have given me no CV due to the lower number of entries.
Comment has been collapsed.
Your poll should maybe have another option - remove CV because it's a load of bollocks anyway.
Comment has been collapsed.
Damn, tomorrow you'll find out about people getting massive amount of keys directly from devs, farming CV while spending absolutely nothing. Now THIS will be the true unfairness compared to the others!
Life is not fair, deal with it. People giving away 0.03$ keys is literally nothing compared to what is possible to do, and if you treat CV as any meaningful value, then you're already deeply wrong.
Comment has been collapsed.
What? I thought they really bough 50x steam gift copies of that unbundled game! :)
Agree with you on every point
Comment has been collapsed.
I don't mind people getting mass keys from devs because they did some work to bring us games that we would otherwise not have and they also lose most of the value when giving over a certain number of copies of the same game which means they are not getting much CV anyway. Also, I think these users usually continue to give games in mass after reaching level 10. It seems like they are more interested in getting us games than gaining CV.
Comment has been collapsed.
And those users are spending their 3 cents for giving away a game that you would otherwise not have if they didn't spend those 3 cents. People giving away dev keys are not giving one single game but hundreds of games in mass quantities, long before they get bundled. A lot of those people also publicly admitted that they're giving those games away only as a free CV boost, and later on use that CV for winning over 2k games on SG, from other users that spent their own money on them.
This has become especially a big problem in ratio-based giveaway groups, to the point that I had to add such point to my Touhou Giveaways rules, around a year or two ago:
Games you obtained for free, e.g. directly from developers, for a review or through a promo, must have a maximum of 1/4 of the default value. If we suspect that you got a key for free, we might ask for a receipt that is given to you as a proof of purchase. Trading is not a valid excuse. In case of third-party giveaways that are not given in mass quantities, it's evaluated on case-by-case basis, depending on actual probability, required effort and likewise.
I can actually speak about this from my own experience as a group owner. Yes, there are many people that truly want to give away something to the community, those people usually have very low or even 0 amount of wins, while very high CV. cg is the best example. There is also a second group of people that is mainly giving away only dev keys and shitty bundles with values that are far lower than what is talked about in this thread, and they have far over thousand of games won from normal non-dev users in CV-powered giveaways that were farmed through dev keys alone. Only because those people typically don't expose themselves in public doesn't mean that they don't exist. And BTW, that CV is usually farmed in closed ratio-based groups, so while getting CV they're also getting in-group currency (ratio) that they can spend in order to get even easier access to games, because public giveaways are not efficient enough :).
Like I said, the "issue" raised up in this thread is like complaining that government has only 95% VAT tax instead of 93%. CV in its current form has absolutely no meaningful value, regardless of how much people want to believe otherwise.
Comment has been collapsed.
Yeah but it's not like this matter wasn't discussed previously, and a dozen of times as well. Many users have proposed alternative solutions, including me, and nothing of that was really taken in account, apart from free games now being possible to be given away for zero value.
CV system can't be fixed or reworked, it can only be replaced by entirely new metric, but that metric would need to take in account actual price of the game at the time giveaway was created, and calculate CV not as fixed 100%/15% but as % based off that metric. In addition to that user would probably need to provide proof of purchase of every "suspicious" game being given away, as a matter of fighting with dev keys.
This goes too far when it considers SG, this is why a system very similar to above is instead implemented in my giveaway group, with ArchiBoT providing full automation to everything that can be remotely checked by a machine. This way all of that is automated, and my staff is just on a look-out for potential suspicious giveaways, verifying that they're legit and not dev keys.
If you want fairness, consider using a group with its own in-group currency instead, SG CV metric doesn't come even close to what could be considered fair. I see it more as a metric that divides poor and stupid from smart or rich.
Comment has been collapsed.
Damn, tomorrow you'll find out about people getting massive amount of keys directly from devs, farming CV while spending absolutely nothing.
Still really gross that you and others do this.
Comment has been collapsed.
That's interesting, I knew that happened, but I didn't know it was 14x. The problem is that for the first 5 copies, they are getting 80x the CV for each copy. You start reducing CV after copy 5, so you just keep creating 5 copy giveaways with different $0.03 games to keep getting the big CV boost.
If you could keep finding more deals of similar value to this one and give away 5 copies of each game, you would only need to spend this much to reach each level:
$0.32 - level 2
$0.63 - level 3
$1.25 - level 4
$3.13 - level 5
$6.25 - level 6
$12.51 - level 7
$25.00 - level 8
$37.52 - level 9
$62.54 - level 10
These values are for bundled value of the current game being given away in the other thread, not full CV. That's pretty insane compared to how much most people will give to reach those levels.
Comment has been collapsed.
And only thing they need to do is find 2.1k 3 cent games :)
You could also just become a dev yourself, make 10 silly games and set price on $100. Then you can use the keys you get for free to get to lvl10. No cards, no massive pushing to farmers etc so shouldn't be any problem with Steam, especially when those 50 people are the only ones that will ever own the game.
Comment has been collapsed.
They only need to spend a total of $12.51 by giving 416 games of this value to reach level 7 and they will be equal with you. That is 5 copies each of 83 different games. 83 very cheap games may sound like a lot, but there are Russian sites that track these really cheap sales of games for a few cents and there are a lot of these sales. I bet someone could reach level 7 from these cheap games in less than a year and spend less than $25. Do you think that is fair? Do you think they should be on level 7 with you for spending less than $25?
I only checked these Russian sites once a few months ago and I ended up sending a support ticket to add 9 games to the bundle list because people were giving 3 or 4 cent games and getting full CV. I have not looked into it since then, but i know there are a lot of these games.
Another problem is that these games are not in popular bundles and can go unnoticed and never get bundled. Sometimes the people giving them away get to keep the full CV.
Comment has been collapsed.
83 doesn't sound like a lot of anything to me, neither do I really spend time thinking about how fair or unfair some other people's stats are. I have also given away lots of games that cost me 1 or 2 cents and not in Russia either.
To some people CV seems to be very important, to me it's like just another game stat, you win the game when you max it out at lvl10. :)
Comment has been collapsed.
The problem is that CV means nothing if it is this easy to exploit. The only purpose of the CV system is to create an incentive for people to give games. The more you give, the higher you level, and then you can enter level restricted giveaways. Some people do it just to show off as well. They don't care about entering giveaways, they just want to look better than others.
People spend hundreds of dollars to reach higher levels and then realize that there are hundreds of other people that reached the same level by spending very little money, it ruins the purpose of the CV system.
Comment has been collapsed.
How could we fix this then? Give all games 100% CV of the cheapest price ever anywhere? That way a 3 cent game will never give more than 3 cents. Personally I don't really see it as an exploit if you play by the rules so it must be the rules that are wrong if there is a problem.
Comment has been collapsed.
Exploit is probably the wrong word to use. Yes, the system is somewhat broken and it is a very tricky thing to fix. The people leveling up cheap are not technically doing anything wrong, the system is just not sophisticated enough to prevent it. I don't think there is a fix that will make everyone happy. There are some things that can be done to reduce the problem, but it will probably never be fixed completely and these fixes may add confusion to the CV system and make more work for the site programmer and the admins/support.
One solution is what the OP mentioned, adding more levels of bundled CV. Instead of giving all bundled (or over 95% off) games 15% CV, there could be an even lower CV given for games with a higher discount. An example would be giving games that have been 99% off or more a CV value of only 1 or 2% instead of the normal 15%.
Comment has been collapsed.
Yes, I agree, but there are a lot of these 3 or 4 cent games sold. People only giving 5 copies of each of these games could level up pretty fast and extremely cheap. Level 10 is kind of ridiculous, but something like level 6 or 7 would be much more attainable for quite cheap and probably under a year.
Comment has been collapsed.
If you think something is being exploited, your best option is always to send a ticket to support so they can review the case and decide a course of action.
Making things black and white is rarely a good idea, and only works in certain cases. There's a line between black and white, and there will be no end of debating over where that line should fall. I just send tickets to support when I see something out of the ordinary.
Comment has been collapsed.
I brought this up back when the Clickteam Fusion thing was going (15x), and was resoundingly told to fuck off. And if you look in the giveaway history of pretty much anyone high level on SG (I looked through quite a few), you'll find some stuff like this. So, fuck it, that's the way it is. Get used to it and work the system yourself.
Comment has been collapsed.
And on the other side you should be level 11 to enter any giveaway.
I mean ANY.
Comment has been collapsed.
First, put a stop to normal users giving away 50x free dev keys. Dev giveaways should exclusively be done on Dev accounts that are not used to enter giveaways.
Comment has been collapsed.
developer account
not entering giveaways
seems it's just a tag for people doing massive giveaways, it should be either removed or renamed.
and yes, REAL developers shouldn't have privileges to enter giveaways. they should be here to promote their games, not farm cv, then leech.
but, it's SG™
Comment has been collapsed.
And 9 months later, look at how much more prevalent this shit is.
Comment has been collapsed.
Does what you pay really matters?! As long as you have paid for it then it doesnt matter. Do you think its fair to buy the monthly for 12$ and then get about 150 up to 300 $ or more full cv value while others who can't sub to the monthly for some reason have to grind for it?!
And in a situation where someone live in a country that sells games for cheap (india for example) they can buy games for cheap and get the same CV value of someone who bought the same game from a different country for higher price.
In my opinion as long as you paid for it then it shouldn't be considered as free game regardless of what you paid.
Perhaps adjusting the precentage of real CV vaule gained would be a good idea for example
HB montly games give 50% value since i find it unfair to make someone who gibs montly games equal to someone who is giving unbundled games
Normal bundles (up to 90% off) give 25% value
Ultra cheap bundles (99% off) give 15% value
Comment has been collapsed.
Rather than 1% I would make it 2.25% (15% of 15%, a double bundle status basically) if the discount is at least 99.25% (when the price is still at least 95% off after bundle value is applied). It would be even more painful to explain how the system works though.
Comment has been collapsed.
even more painful to explain how the system works
And even more so to maintain. Countless 'normal' bundle-cases of the 95% threshold type slip through already mostly from those hardly known russian back-alley key-sites and some from steam store discounts, getting discovered months late if at all.
Making the system more complex will be an administrative horror and given the current staff situation be more than inadvisable.
Comment has been collapsed.
CV sure shouldn't be the main reasoning for making GAs, but when it is main reasoning for some, in overall the site seems to rather benefit from way more GAs being made and even level 0s having quite good odds to win at least some copies of those "super-bundled" games.
As for high level users who spent quite some for copies of full value games to give away, if they care a lot about being on higher level than those having gotten CV mostly from "super-bundled" games, then a few $ to increase their CV with super-bundles as well means that they can stay ahead in "CV race" quite easily - all while it is up to discretion of GA maker about whether they want entries only from high level users or not, meaning that it is not really a right of high level users to expect some GAs be made only for them.
Also, lowering amount of cheap GAs doesn't necessarily equal increase of expensive GAs. I mean, in my case, even if there were not CV/levels whatsoever, I still would have spent some for sake of ratio (especially when just giving away spare copies from bundles would have seem too few in amount and/or value). But I still would have preferred to go with option of dozens of copies of non-asset-flip games to spread around instead of just several copies for several users.
All in all, even if there were no CV/levels, or even if some changes happened (due to e.g. that many find it unfair that a group of 5 persons can purchase each other gifts and increase their CV quite some in private or restricted-group GAs), I still would be around as I find SG better than some reselling spare copies or spending perhaps even hours every day for sake of some trading. Just meant to point out that a change based merely on "I spent $500 to get to level 6 and some others spent only $10" seems to me a moot point since even if amount of GAs wouldn't decrease, someone having spent that much could have spent $10 of those $500 on super-bundles as well and be at level 7 - all while if there happened to be a huge amount of super-bundles, then the CV system can easily account for that by raising the roof of CV or by adding further levels.
Comment has been collapsed.
Comment has been collapsed.
1 Comments - Last post 5 minutes ago by nguyentandat23496
2,007 Comments - Last post 1 hour ago by Wok
50 Comments - Last post 2 hours ago by spodamayn
15 Comments - Last post 4 hours ago by Axelflox
84 Comments - Last post 9 hours ago by CasadoTambemJoga
15 Comments - Last post 9 hours ago by FluffyKittenChan
25 Comments - Last post 14 hours ago by Atombomb2097
42 Comments - Last post 1 minute ago by PastelLicuado
25 Comments - Last post 9 minutes ago by Myrsan
249 Comments - Last post 35 minutes ago by wigglenose
25 Comments - Last post 45 minutes ago by TinaG
7,102 Comments - Last post 54 minutes ago by lav29
794 Comments - Last post 1 hour ago by Mdk25
74 Comments - Last post 2 hours ago by jacoz26
After reading this thread I was thinking of the other super-CV farming giveaways. Not the regular bundle stuff, but games like the attached $16 game going for $0.03 means $2.4 CV, or 80x or Humble Software Bundles GameDev Software Bundle: $172 worth of games for $1 - gives $25 CV , Cyberlink Bundle: $155 worth for $1 - gives 23 CV, Gamemaker Rebundle: $1600 worth of software for $15 - gives 240 CV, or 16x
For games/software that is never quite free, but where the discount is beyond ridiculous, can we treat them as free? Or, if that's not acceptable, can we create a new category for super-bundled games that give 1% CV?
Comment has been collapsed.