I want it all, I want it all, I want it all... and I want it now!
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I'm just really sad the games are considered canon since they captured the atmosphere of the movies really sad.
Never experienced the books.
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I voter for Disney cause i felt they are undervoted. but in all truth, as long as the story is good, i don't care if it's canon or not.
it can be fanfiction and still be good...
most importantly, i saw the SW VII trailer ~10 times already. and going for another go now since you reminded me...
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=K5PTBM2COa0
new trailer... sort of
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I'm not particularly a fan of the Star Wars series (I prefer Frank Herbert's Dune), which I find to be very archetypal and vapid for the most part. It's rather uninteresting and I find the sincerity and inspiration of George Lucas to be lacking in the later additions to the story. I'll try my best to respond, though...
When it comes to canon, I think it's difficult to determine what is and isn't canonical in the series. My personal opinion is that only the movies are canon, since that was the original medium through which the story was told, and thus the two trilogies (and any further movies produced by George Lucas) would be canon. The other media, such as the books and comics and whatnot, can be classified as canon if published with Lucas' approval, but even then there comes the issue of whether the Word of God is the final decree and whether it can change or expand the canon in any capacity.
The issue of the creator's assent to classify something as canon also comes into play with the matter of the prequel trilogy. Would this be considered canon? Some would argue yes for the reasons above and elsewhere, whereas others would argue no because there is uncertainty about whether the prequels were intended all along or if they were afterthoughts. To some, "afterthoughts" or appended works by the author or creator do not qualify as canonical because they attempt to resume an otherwise closed canon. Again, the primary point of contention is whether the creator of the canon has the authority to amend, alter, or append additional material to it, or that the canon itself is otherwise self-sufficient after the initial release and ends when there is a break in continuity.
A final issue regarding the topic of Star Wars canon is whether the work was created by the author himself (in this case, George Lucas), or simply directed or approved by him. To some, mere approval or assent by the creator is not sufficient reason to classify something as canon, whereas for others not even the Word of God is final.
In my opinion, I would only consider the two sequels as canon. If I may propose an alternative, however, I would argue that it is all canon (except anything that was not approved by George Lucas or Star Wars as canonical), but canonical by degrees of separation from the original material. In other words, material closer to the first movie (Star Wars, a.k.a. Star Wars Episode IV: A New Hope) is of higher canonical merit and value than later material. Moreover, degrees of separation applies not only sequentially, but also by degrees of separation from the original medium used, the first degree of separation being whichever medium proceeded the first movie. The canonical merit of the work is then determined both by the distance from the original source material and the degree of separation from the original source medium, the former taking priority over the latter and the movies taking priority over the other media when conflict in the former occur. Whenever a form of media is a part of a series, however, its merit and value as canon is determined by its relationship with the other installments of that particular series and its veracity to antecedent source material of a higher order of canonical merit and value, like medium taking precedence when multiple media is equally represented (unless the media is cinematic, in which case it takes primary precedence, and the secondary precedence is therefore determined by likeness of medium). Lastly, works by George Lucas himself always holds greater canonical merit and value than those sanctioned by him as canonical, and the latter holds greater canonical merit and value than those sanctioned by Star Wars (and not George Lucas specifically).
To illustrate this more clearly, the first trilogy would hold the highest canonical merit and value, Episode IV being at the apex and Episodes V and VI following, respectively. Then comes the first Star Wars book, then the Star Wars comic book series. Depending on which serial installment came first among the two media, the early work possesses higher canonical merit and value (this means that sometimes, one installment of the comic book series may supersede an installment in the novel series if the latter installment was later than the former). If any of these media installments were published between the original trilogy movies, I'd argue that they hold greater canonical merit and value than the movies, but only if they were written by George Lucas himself in the same level of involvement (or greater) as he did with the movies. If not, then the movies naturally take precedence over them. Thereafter comes the prequel trilogy and later book and comic book installments. Then comes the cartoon series, video games, and other spin-offs. Then, finally comes the miscellaneous works sanctioned as canon by Star Wars but was not authored nor sanctioned specifically by George Lucas himself (this may include the cartoons, as well, so this category is virtually synonymous with the previous one regarding the cartoons, video games, and other spin-offs). Of course, there are the noncanonical works and fanon which constitutes the lowest possible tier of canonical merit and value, ordered in hierarchy by their veracity to the above source material, following the rule of closeness to original source material (irrespective of medium), both in content and date, holding the greatest value and merit as canonical.
But nobody cares enough to actually think about a fictional universe and story to structure its canon and content in this way, especially not someone who doesn't even enjoy Star Wars all that much.
...
I really need to get a life.
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Dune series is amazing. Couldn't make it past ten minutes of the movie, though :/
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It's one of those movies that don't age well. But the books are phenomenal. Frank Herbert and Arthur C. Clarke made my teenage years pretty enjoyable.
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The movie has little to do with the books anyway.
As for Star Wars, I'm not voting because my main canon are the KotOR games. I haven't read any SW books; I might give the comics another try (bought them on Humble Bundle, but the first try didn't get me hooked); the first trilogy of movies was good (well, RotJ not so much), the second was pretty, but mostly so bad it's good. The KotOR games were good, though. And in a little while I might do some SW roleplaying because our Wild West campaign is coming to a close.
But I'm re-reading Dune. Again. Right now I'm in the middle of Heretics of Dune.
I'd known SW was a blatant Dune rip-off - and it's the main reason we'll never ever going to get proper Dune movies - but when I heard about Sith Witches in the new movie, the only thing on my mind was oh, gods, they ripped off the Bene Gesserit again.
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I used to believe Star Wars was a Dune rip-off, as well, but it's a bit more... complex than that. Although there are certainly some striking parallels between the series, George Lucas was inspired by a number of different sources, most notably The Hero with a Thousand Faces by Joseph Campbell (1949) and The Hidden Fortress movie directed in 1958 by Akiro Kurosawa. In both series, however, major Ancient Greek, Indian, and Eastern influences were prevalent throughout, and both George Lucas and Frank Herbert were amazing science fiction-fantasy world builders. I prefer Frank Herbert, however, only because he was more a soft science fiction author and focused more on politics, philosophy, and psychology. Lucas was great at telling a timeless story, but I felt it lacked the intellectualism of Herbert's Duniverse.
EDIT: Believe it or not, Frank Herbert and Dune almost prevented George Lucas' Star Wars from ever coming to be. During the original production of the film, the original director (read the article; part of the story can also be found in Dreamer of Dune: The Biography of Frank Herbert by Brian Herbert) soon realized that the full story of just Dune would take over 22 hours of length to properly tell and the costs for production would be enormous. Back then, science fiction wasn't that popular and long, epic movie sagas like Star Wars and Lord of the Rings wasn't even out yet—let alone popular—so they gave up on it. The director was fired, the original work was scrapped, and they start over with a much lower budget. Lo and behold, Star Wars then came out only a few years later and was arguably one of the most successful box office releases and franchises in entertainment history. Just think: had they created the full series and cut it into three or four installments like they intended, people might be talking about Dune today, and not Star Wars.
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I think the same reasons you loved DUNE rather than Star Wars are the reasons I found it far less captivating growing up. I thought DUNE was dry (no pun intended) and pointlessly obtuse, and it always reminded me of another mythology I loved so much more and understood better. at the time. I mean, I was trying to read the series at 14 which is a difficult time in most people's lives to figure things out. I didn't touch the DUNE series for years, then reread them in college and absolutely adored them. I then tried reading the "Sequels" by Brian Herbert and Kevin Anderson and wanted to punch them both.
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Well, the Star Wars series was more action-packed and filled with excitement, whereas the Dune series was more introspective and dialogue-oriented. Then again, the former was cinematic whereas the latter was literary, which undoubtedly contributed to the emphasis of both aspects. But yes, the Dune series was very complex and it is considered the Lord of the Rings of science fiction. Before Dune, science fiction was the poor man's genre fit only for novellas and short stories, and few took it seriously. Only after the magnum opus series of Dune (along with the other science fiction and fantasy works occurring at around that time) was science fiction seen as a respectable genre. The series quite literally changed the shape of literary thought and how people perceived science fiction as a whole.
The formidability of the work was in part due to its complexity. As a result, many people couldn't really enjoy it until their late teens and early adulthood, at which point it became a sensation among the youth. It became so popular, in fact, that Dune is considered recommended (and sometimes required) reading for many college courses.
I'm surprised you don't like Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson's continuation of the series. They are both skilled science fiction writers, though they were better at the sort of action-packed science fiction writing one might expect from a Star Wars novel. Brian and Kevin, in my opinion, were no match for Frank Herbert's legacy and writing style, so they made the wise decision to not try to emulate him and thereby potentially disgracing the series. Instead, they chose to preserve Dune 7–7.5 in much of the father's work and writing, despite how this resulted in very fractured and fitful writing. Their own original installments were much in line with their own writing styles, however, and thus one would notice much less dialogue and much more (and more detailed) action scenes. In this sense, they complemented the father's work because whereas Frank Herbert was adept at dialogue and stream of consciousness writing, he was a bit lacking in the sort of lively and exciting detail one would desire from action scenes—and this is precisely where is son shined the best.
It's a pity that Frank Herbert died when he did. Believe it or not, he and Brian Herbert were planning on coauthoring the prequels and considering how their writing styles complemented each other so perfectly, the prequels might have arguably been better than the original canon. Unfortunately, Herbert Sr. died of pancreatic cancer (and a broken heart) before this could come to pass, leaving an unfinished legacy and unfulfilled plans which would only resume over a decade later, when his son stumbled across the master's old notes and outlines for the unpublished Dune 7 in an old storage lockbox. In his honor, Brian Herbert (with the help of friend and fellow science fiction author, Kevin J. Anderson) revived the series and attempted to accomplish what father and son never had the opportunity to do.
Anywho, story time aside, the son's continuation is certainly not as "good" as the father's original canon, but then again it's pretty difficult to top the legacy of Frank Herbert. For what it's worth, though, I enjoyed the continuation. It sucks that it doesn't have Herbert Sr.'s guidance, but at least the story continues and the origins are more fleshed out. Being the diehard fan that I am, any new Dune is arguably welcomed Dune.
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I only read The Butlerian Jihad. It was a disgrace, so I gave up on all other non-canon works. The six Frank's books are Dune; Brian & Co. are just fan fiction.
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I disagree. For the most part, the son's continuation has been faithful and rigorously accurate to the original canon, while also taking sufficient artistic liberties to liven the story. Brian Herbert and Kevin J. Anderson may not be as good as Frank Herbert, but then again they aren't trying to emulate him either. They're simply carrying on the unfinished legacy left by a genius who died before he could complete it himself.
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The Butlerian Jihad breaks canon quite a bit; form what I've heard, so do the House prequels.
I will probably never read the rest of the new books. I don't want to get disappointed again.
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That's your decision, I suppose. Yes, there are some discrepancies, but the entire series is riddled with discrepancies, including the original canon. In the end, though, it's still a part of the Duniverse and, at least in my opinion, any new Dune is good Dune.
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There are discrepancies in the original books. What you have in the prequels is breaking the canon. It's much worse than simple discrepancies.
But hey, to each his own.
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I suppose so. It's still Dune, though, and that's good enough for me (even though I wish it were much, much better).
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I respect you for knowing the sources. I actually got into Kurosawa because of the Lucas connection, so I have to thank him for that. And my well-thumbed copy of Hero of a Thousand Faces is sitting on my bookshelf behind me as I type this.
I love Star Wars in the same way I love Lord of the Rings:Both are huge, cyclopean mythologies that have come to define generations and have established themselves in our cultural lexicon in ways that other SF and Fantasy series have not largely because there are elements missing that the former two have in spades.
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I haven't read the The Hero with a Thousand Faces yet, but I definitely do plan on it (it's kind of necessary for my personal studies). I'm not a movie fan, however, so I'll honestly probably not watch Kurosawa's works (unless my significant other is a movie fan, in which case I'll suggest it). It's a bit ironic, though, because Frank Herbert's Dune was more definitive than Star Wars (the latter was influenced by the former) in the science fiction genre. It's only due to Star Wars' big success in the box office, coupled with the more general appeal of cinema to audiences than books, that it became the more popular (and influential?) series. In the end, though, it is Dune which is considered the "LOTR of science fiction," not Star Wars. And yet, it is the latter which is more popular. I guess you have cinema to thank (and the studios to blame for rejecting Jodorowsky's vision) for that.
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Never watched the movie, to be honest, and I'm not sure if I will anytime soon. Frank Herbert originally liked the movie, but later recanted it as a poor representation of his work. In particular, the final scene wherein Paul Atreides caused it to rain on Arrakis was absurd and completely digressed from the story, not to mention extremely inconsistent with the canon. Paul Atriedes may have had many powers, but he was not a god. He couldn't make it rain on command, nor could anyone else in the Duniverse (unless you count the weather alteration technology).
As for the novels, I've read the original six by Frank Herbert, including Dune 7 and 7.5 by his son (Brian Herbert) and Kevin J. Anderson. I've also read the biography of Frank Herbert by his son, as well as most of the prequels and quasi-canonical works by Brian and Kevin, including those which apparently fell in-between the original canonical works. I haven't read all of them, though, and I've kind of fallen out of the series due to my recent interest in dry, academic works (namely philosophy), but I hope to reread the entire series, including the son's continuation, all again. It's the only series I have ever considered doing so.
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The ONLY thing I consider canon is my old ratty VHS copy of the original Star Wars where HAN SHOOTS FIRST!
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This.
When the creator can't make up his own mind about the characters he thought up it's hard to put any value in what's canon and what isn't.
And if you don't understand why the "HAN SHOOTS FIRST!" is a big deal: The scene originally sets up a moment that defines Han Solo as an anti-hero with little in the way of morals, which he grows out of over the course of the movies. That moment loses a lot of it's impact in the revisions.
Also, for the new trilogy they'll be ignoring Timothy Zahn's "Heir to the Empire" series (which up until now were pretty much considered to be episode 7-9 ), probably making the movies diverge from the extended universe even further. Which is sure to upset a number of extended universe fans.
Oh well. At least it's not yet as complex as Transformers canon & continuities...
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For what it's worth, as a Dune fan, I agree that Han shot first and I believe that George Lucas was a fool to revise it. The moral dubiety of Han Solo was what helped shaped his antiheroic character. By removing that, in particular the defining part that represented the questionable morals of Han Solo when he shot first, Lucas made the transition much less meaningful. He effectively undermined the entire character as a result.
A pity, too. Even worse is that Lucas later bold-faced lied about it and Ford took his side.
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They did make a pitiable Laser-disk copy that plays in your DVD player. It is the original trilogy in grainy wide screen and my preferred method of Star Wars injections. Linky incoming...
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The 2 film trilogies do a good job. I've never read any of the books, but I've heard they can be quite ridiculous lol
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I only consider Jar Jar Binks / Chewbacca slash fanfiction to be canon.
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Hey there...
Star Wars FanFic
by OstePotet, Jan 7, 2015, 3:17:10 AM
Literature / Fan Fiction / RomanceJar Jar Binks had set his course for the planet of Naboo
The reason to this is kinda taboo
He wanted to see his love Chewbacca
Together they made some wacka-wacka
But on the planet there were none
Everything there was long gone
So Jar Jar he swore
That next time he soar
He won't visit Naboo no more
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The eight films (The Phantom Menace, Attack of the Clones, The Clone Wars, Revenge of the Sith, Spark of Rebellion, A New Hope, The Empire Strikes Back, Return of the Jedi), radio dramas, and novelizations, parts of the Holiday Special, the Clone Wars television series & related media, the Rebels television series, and the upcoming films and movie spinoffs.
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Since the scrapped the Thrawn trilogy as canon, I don't care.
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Doesn't anyone consider the Star Wars Holiday Special to be canon?
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Even Chewbacca's family doesn't consider that to be canon:P
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Canon for me:
Both trilogies, because yes.
Books, at least those by Timothy Zahn(yes, Mitth'raw'nuruodo and so on).
The rest is simply bad, inconsistent ramblings... Take Clone Wars tv series... Between episodes 2 and 3 Anakin was just a padawan. For the show he suddenly got his own padawan. I'm not a big fan of Star Wars, science fiction for me means Frank Herbert, Stanisław Lem, Arkady and Boris Strugatsky, Ursula Le Guin, Asimov, Clarke, Dick... Still it bothers me when I see such inconsistencies, or however you spell that.
And Disney showing middle finger by saying everything past commercial cinema/tv creations isn't canon. Bunch of fucking pedos...
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A lot of the EU is best experienced as a younger person, I find. Trying to get an adult who has read a lot of "proper" SF to appreciate the Star Wars novels is probably like trying to get me to appreciate anime:it's far too late, and I'm quite fine with that.
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And then, Star Wars isn't really Science Fiction, it's Fantasy with spaceships instead of horses.
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Space opera is really the definitive term since among Lucas' influences were the Flash Gordon and Buck Rodgers serials. I tend to refer to it, as many do in the science fiction and fantasy milieu, as science fantasy.
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It's never too late, one just needs to learn that "anime" is a medium, not a genre.
"I don't like anime." is no different than claiming "I don't like TV shows."
Ok... what KIND of tv shows? All of them? It's the same for anime.
A large percent of Japanese animated works are shows for kids, but there are hundreds of series that have been produced for the adult demographic.
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No no no no...
I mean that I dislike the medium in general. There are a few shows I liked when I was younger but I just have absolutely no interest in trying to "learn" more about it, much as I don't want to read the harry potter books nor the twilight drek. I don't really understand the obsession of 21+ year olds enjoying YA fiction, whatever the medium.
I don't care if the anime has "adult" themes,gore, lots of gratuitous sex or "complex" psychological ruminations on humanity, no one can convince me it's worth watching any more. On that note
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Your very comment indicates that you think it is a genre, and not a medium. There are all kinds of animated shows. Only some of them are "YA fiction".
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Clone Wars "tv series" is absolute canon however. "episodes 2 and 3" are actually part of a movie that were split up for later airing on television
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I tend to view "canon" more fluidly then most. What's canon is whatever the person creating the work decides it is. This lets people tell the best story they can.
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Doesn't George Lucas only have a "Greenlight" though?
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2 trilogies? You mean there are more than 3 Star Wars films out there?
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DEATH TROOPERS was the greatest book i've ever read, though i'm not sure it should be canon.
I don't really care though.
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"The original 2 trilogies and all media which don't contradict the movies or each other." That was a smart way to put this, since there are many situations where this occurs, in various franchises, esp. SF and Fantasy.
I was obsessed with Star Wars growing up, which is odd considering I was born one year after ESB came out, so I never saw the original trilogy in theatres until they released the Special Editions and by then I was hooked. Star Wars is what started me down the path to a lifetime appreciation of the things I am passionate about now; indeed, I may never have read the Hobbit at 9 years old if I hadn't seen the original trilogy on tv first.
I got into the EU the way most people did:The epic and still one of my favorite SF works of all time, the "Thrawn trilogy" by Timothy Zahn. I devoured every SW novel I could find, played all the pc and SNES and N64 games, collected figures and the awesome Action Fleet micromachines, and even got my HS D&D group to try the West End Games Star Wars RPG.And then...The Phantom Menace happened. I won't say that it broke me, not at all, I was even one of the founding members of the Star Wars Fan Club at my university(I may or may not have a Star Wars tattoo). We convinced our student activities board to finance our trip to The Celebration 2 because it would be "Edumacashenul";even our SO's came for free.
Attack of the Clones was the straw that broke the bantha's back. It was as if it signaled an era of sub-standard Star Wars fiction, games, and of course the latter two films. I had my memories and all the stuff of the "good ole days". To me canon ended when and where I said it did. Clone Wars cartoon? Whatever.Nu-Star Wars related games? Worthless. Novels where major characters die for no good reason other than shock-value? Didn't happen. Since then the only real interest I've had in learning more about the EU of SW has been the Old Republic era as explored in Tales of the Jedi graphic novels and Drew Karpshyian novels and KOTOR games.
All that being said, I considered it a huge travesty to many fans when Disney's shareholders decided to consider everything they and Lucasfilm didn't release "glorified fanfiction." "Millions of voices cried out in terror, and were suddenly silenced" to paraphrase an old Jedi.
Even though I'm still very interested in the universe, I don't go into nerdrage mode every time some kid says how much they love Star Wars and really mean clone wars-era media. It's a bit like when back in the '90s pop-punk was gaining ground and all of us kids who listened to Green Day and Offspring and NOFX and stuff were saying how much we loved punk rock.Older punks hated it but eventually moved on, and some of us learned to value actual punk rock (coincidentally realizing just how interconnected those bands were with the actual punk scene)
TL;DR I'm a dyed-in-the-wool SW fan and really love the expanded universe and will continue to view that as canon.Bearing in mind that a lot of those novels probably haven't aged well considering I read them as a tween and then into college. I tried rereading the Jedi Academy Trilogy by Kevin J. Anderson and it was awful, terrible writing, cliched, and cringe-worthy storylines.
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So, it's not just the Dune novels that Kevin J. Anderson butchered. Good to know.
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I'm still waiting for a Darth Revan and Shadows of the Empire movie.
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There's a Revan book if you're interested that describes what happens to him after the first KOTOR.
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SOTE would be a great movie, but I think that there has been so much re-written about the year between ESB and ROTJ that it's probably not even canonical anymore. The game took a lot of liberties with ESB's Battle of Hoth for instance.
Then again, the fact that the game's protagonist is a stand-in for Han Solo (who is then barely ever mentioned again) might mean that someone could consider it worth filming. I'd settle for a CGI or animated feature like the Rebels tv series, even TCW series might be a decent template.
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And if even the creator of the movie not even really know about their product
then how about us ? we just the audience :D
Seriously ? even the creator not even know what they really want with their own stuff they made ? o_O
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George is the creator. He said only his films are canon, plus Clone Wars cartoon which also premiered in theaters.
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Why isn't the original animated series considered canon? Hoping you might know because I couldn't find answers in my initial search.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Star_Wars:_Clone_Wars_%282003_TV_series%29
Found video link to entire series: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XVk9lPotcW4
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The other clone wars show originally aired in theaters by Lucas' directive. It was going to be straight to TV only originally. Lucas Approved + In cinemas = canon I guess.
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That's actually better than any explanation I could find.
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Pssssh, I got the original trilogy in VHS in christmas, envy me ( ͡° ͜ʖ ͡°)
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I personally consider only one thing as Star Wars Cannon - the Death's Star Superlaser.
Ye, I know it's got nothing to do with the topic, but I couldn't help myself.
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"only the movies (and clone wars series) would be considered canon in Disney's effort to move the StarWars franchise forward."
You must have previously been mistaken or under a false impression before the Disney take over.
Those are all that ever have been canon in the first place under Lucas as well. Look it up, Wiki has a nice compiled summary for example.
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I had the impression that before Disney's take over that all expanded universe was canon as long as they didn't interfere with higher tier canon. That was why in 2000 Lucas Licensing created the 'Holocron continuity database' which basically compares star wars media in terms of canon. http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Canon#cite_note-0
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They are only keeping G and T, with everything lower (EU stuff) moving to thew new "Yea, no thanks." Disney "Legends" line.
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Yep, the EU. None of which was truly canon to begin with. They made other tier levels like C and S to rank them, but only anything that appeared in theaters was officially the "true" story, to which anything else had to defer if someone was curious about discrepancies.
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Uhm,read that entire link. EU was certainly canon, which is one reason why Sue Rostoni, former executive editor of Lucas Licensing until 2011, is thanked by almost every author in their acknowledgements; she was the primary person in charge of ensuring continuity. Lucas knew of storylines and plots and character developments but until Lucasfilm was sold to Disney the EU was considered canon so long as it followed the rules I copied from above.
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That's "EU Continutity" (Now legends). It never was above C rank prior to Disney anyway.
http://starwars.wikia.com/wiki/Canon#Canon_in_the_Holocron_continuity_database
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"On April 25, 2014, a StarWars.com press release confirmed that the films of the sequel trilogy would not adhere to the post–Return of the Jedi Expanded Universe,[10] with further comments from LucasBooks Senior Editor Jennifer Heddle confirming that the EU as a whole is no longer considered canon. The EU has been re-termed "Legends," with related publications remaining in print under that banner. "
therefore until that point it was considered canonical, and was the second-highest tier of canon until recently with the childish cartoon show TCW. Frankly it disappoints me that drek is considered canon when many superior works of SW fiction are not.
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Has anyone read that Star Wars book where they are on a prison ship with zombies?
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I was disappointed when I heard that only the movies (and clone wars series) would be considered canon in Disney's effort to move the StarWars franchise forward. For me personally, I would always consider all media which didn't contradict the two main trilogies to be canon as they fit in so well with the universe and made it rich. I'm curious to know what types of media you PERSONALLY will consider as being canon in the Star Wars universe.
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