I can only afford one of the above, but I don't know which one offers more hours of content.

Update: thanks for the helpful discussion, friends!

7 years ago*

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Eldritch or Luftrausers?

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Eldritch
LUFTRAUSERS

Luftrauser is an arcade shooter defense game. Try it here: http://www.freewebarcade.com/game/luftrauser/
It will always be shorter than some dungeon crawler, but it's up to you to decide which genre is more suitable.

7 years ago
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Try chess. You will get a whole life of time of content with it I promise.)))

7 years ago
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I am an alright chess player myself, used to play a lot as a kid.

7 years ago
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7 years ago
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Pirate both. If you insist on wasting your money by giving it to corporations, then at least waste it on Eldritch. I'm not familiar with LUFTRAUSERS, but I know that Eldritch is an enjoyable game if you like its genre and theme.

7 years ago
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7 years ago
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In what way is Minor Key not a corporation?

7 years ago
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Well they're both indie companies and Minor Key only put out like 4 games, so they're not much of a corporation.

I am from eastern Europe, place where piracy is a common habit, yet it just doesn't feel right to me. Really looking to do something with my 2,13 euro quids (I wish we could use our currency like Russia).

7 years ago
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Why doesn't it "feel right" to you?

7 years ago
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I don't know, mainly because whenever I mentioned piracy once or twice I was called either poor or was given a lot of shit for it, so I kinda learnt a lesson.

7 years ago
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So, piracy doesn't "feel right" to you because you experienced peer pressure that dissuaded you from it, not because you have any personal position or conviction about the practice? Why do you care what they think?

7 years ago
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Dunno, my man, but it's also the sensation that you achieved something by owning an item and not pirating it.

Ain't sayin' no, but I do have Hotline Miami 2 pirate on my PC (I plan on buying it sometime soon though). I am just more reclusive when it comes to talking about piracy and such.

7 years ago
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It's nothing but software that manipulates electrical currents in your computer, which then follow prescribed formulae such that it digitally resembles something meaningful on your monitor in the form of pixels on your screen. Even if you purchased it, what exactly do you own? How is obtaining a pirated copy any less your property than purchasing it? That sensation is foreign to me, and has been for years ever since I realized that it's nothing more than a spooky fiction that has been socially constructed in my head and impressed on me by society so that I can continue giving money to faceless commercial machines owned by a tiny minority of directors who take advantage of their workers every single day and overcharge me for a product I'm told I will enjoy.

Do whatever you want. It's your life and your money. I just think it's a waste of that money and doesn't generally serve your interests to use your money to buy those games when they are freely available elsewhere. For what it's worth, I would consider buying Eldritch, as well, but only because of the special circumstances of who developed and produced it.

7 years ago
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It doesn't feels right because it's theft and when he enjoys the game he realises he should've paid for it. Sometimes I pirate games to try them out but I often end up buying them on steam later down the line.

If everyone would pirate every game they wanted I don't think gaming would be a thing anymore tbh...

7 years ago
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What, exactly, is being stolen? Theft according to who? Who, or what, benefits from that definition and classification of theft? On what material basis is that definition and classification established? Software is infinitely duplicable without an input of any physical material aside from a negligible amount of electricity. It is practically unrestricted by rules of natural scarcity. Being infinitely duplicable, it makes no sense why a particular piece of software should be anyone's property, instead of being free access to all. The only reason why such notions of so-called "intellectual property" exist is because of the capitalist system which produced them at the behest of the capitalists who financially benefited from such notions. It is only within that context—that bourgeois ideology—that it makes any sense, a context which itself is nonsensical and absurd from an outside perspective.

I'm sorry that you are so intoxicated by such ridiculously bourgeois notions of property and theft that you actually experience guilt for acting in a way that is inconsistent with those notions. It truly is a tragedy that otherwise good people experience self-induced suffering as a consequence of behaving in a way which completely satisfies their own self-interest and which produces pleasure without an iota of pain, but which is nevertheless condemned because it conflicts with the interests of a moneyed elite.

It still doesn't make digital piracy "bad", though.

If everyone would pirate every game they wanted I don't think gaming would be a thing anymore tbh...

That's not the fault of digital piracy. That is the fault of the system which arbitrarily and artificially restricts infinitely duplicable products for the financial gain of its apparent "owners".

7 years ago*
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I pirate a lot of software myself but that doesn't means it's a good decision

If someone sells you something he created and you decide to take it from him for free without him knowing that's theft, but if it's digital it doesn't counts as theft? do you realise how stupid that is?

That's not the fault of digital piracy. That is the fault of the system which arbitrarily and artificially restricts infinitely duplicable products for the financial gain of its apparent "owners".

I'm sorry but, are you fucking retarded? If corporations go bankrupt because people decide to "steal" their inventions it's the fault of the people not the fucking system.

If someone makes software it's not yours unless they decided to give it for free, sorry but this just reminds of the console modding drama and retarded people stealing people's work (mods) and saying it theirs because they paid for the game, omg some people are really fucking retarded on the internet...

I'm sorry that you are so intoxicated by such ridiculously bourgeois notions of property and theft that you actually experience guilt for acting in a way that is inconsistent with those notions. It truly is a tragedy that otherwise good people experience self-induced suffering as a consequence of behaving in a way which completely satisfies their own self-interest and which produces pleasure without an iota of pain, but which is nevertheless condemned because it conflicts with the interests of a moneyed elite.

What the actual fuck? xD

Sorry but you just sound like a crazy dude trying to justify the bad things he's done.

Now please let this "argument" rest in peace where belongs...

7 years ago
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If someone sells you something he created and you decide to take it from him for free without him knowing that's theft, but if it's digital it doesn't counts as theft? do you realise how stupid that is?

Why should that person have exclusionary rights over that digital product? You are treating software as if it physically exists and could be tangibly stolen from its owner. It is not. It is an encoded set of formulae which manipulate the electrical currents in your computer such that it digitally resembles something meaningful on your monitor in the form of pixels on your screen. Should scientists and mathematicians likewise have exclusionary rights over the formulae they develop?

It's not stupid whatsoever to point out that notions of theft do not apply to immaterial and infinitely reproducible products. If anything, it's rather stupid to state otherwise.

I'm sorry but, are you fucking retarded? If corporations go bankrupt because people decide to "steal" their inventions it's the fault of the people not the fucking system. If someone makes software it's not yours unless they decided to give it for free, sorry but this just reminds of the console modding drama and retarded people stealing people's work (mods) and saying it theirs because they paid for the game, omg some people are really fucking retarded on the internet...

Are you? Those corporations only exist because of the system which defines and permits their existence. Why should that corporation have rights over the so-called "intellectual property" it produced at all? It's not theft, for nothing is stolen in any material sense. You are, again, arguing from a perspective of intoxication with bourgeois ideology. I reject those ridiculous notions as nonsensical and spooky fictions used to justify the actions of the capitalists who benefit from it, serve their interests, excuse their conduct, and obscure the reality of their activities.

Sorry but you just sound like a crazy dude trying to justify the bad things he's done.

Do you struggle with basic reading comprehension? I'm expressing my sorrow for the fact that people like you experience self-induced guilt for activities you have no reason to feel guilty about, nor should you. It's the same general expression I would make if someone told me they felt guilty for masturbating or kissing their lover because their parents told them it was wrong according some antiquated religious tome.

Now please let this "argument" rest in peace where belongs...

If you don't like my argument and its conclusions, then you are free to either ignore me or try to refute it.

7 years ago
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7 years ago
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Do you have anything worthwhile to say, or just oblique insults?

7 years ago
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7 years ago*
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I'm not trolling and nothing I said constituted any ridiculous conspiracy theory. Do you have any more shitposts to make now that you clearly can't produce a valid rebuttal, or are you done?

7 years ago
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7 years ago
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well it is not really theft because he still has his product even if you pirate it

7 years ago
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Exactly. The only sense wherein theft could meaningfully apply to software is if someone took the specific copy of that software from someone, which is extremely unlikely to happen since another copy could simply be made instead.

7 years ago
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It's meme fun time, not shitty no brainier argument

7 years ago
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7 years ago
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7 years ago
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So Minor Key is a limited liability company, which has a company with the limited liability of a corporation, but which is not technically classified as a corporation according to corporate law. In any case, I was using "corporation" as a general term describing a capitalist commercial entity with a rigid undemocratic hierarchy, whose sole motive is profit, and which operates according to the rules of capital.

Whether Minor Key is legally a corporation or an LLC is inconsequential to the fact that it is an exploitative machine for capitalist aggrandizement. Having said that, Minor Key appears to only comprise two members, so perhaps my judgment is a bit premature. I'll give it a few years, at which point it will likely either fold or start hiring employees.

7 years ago
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"I'll give it a few years, at which point it will likely either fold or start hiring employees."

If everybody takes your 'advice' on pirating, it's definitely going to be the first option!

7 years ago
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If everyone took my advice on system change, that wouldn't occur and the notion of digital piracy would be rendered absurd.

7 years ago
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But still... "Software is infinitely duplicable without an input of any physical material aside from a negligible amount of electricity. "

Lowering the amount number in your bank account also costs "a negligible amount of electricity.". And since it's virtual (because you don't have anything physical at that point) it shouldn't matter. And what about database hacks? It's just strings and numbers they're getting... Since anything duplicable without much of a hassle seems okay with you...

So you obviously don't work in software development and will not in the forseeable future. So what do you do for your money?

7 years ago
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The money in a bank account is a representation of a physical commodity, and moreover is currency and thus not analogous to a product or good like software. Software is not a physical commodity, nor is it a representation thereof.

7 years ago
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A physical commodity is the delivered commodity at the end of a contract. So why isn't software that you buy a commodity (you order a game = contract, you get the game = physical commodity). Just because you can copy it without deterioration doesn't change what it is. You can steal an apple, but that doesn't mean it's free all of a sudden. You can xerox a dollar bill, that doesn't make it legitimate money. Because that's probably closest to your case. Software/music/movies can be copied without deterioration, so it has no value. Well, you can create false money bills, that doesn't all of a sudden mean it's actual money.

Let's say you're a student. But at graduation, you're getting an elf spotting certificate. Which is very nice, but useless. Because that's what happens. You spent a lot of years at university and end up with a useless certificate.

Well, people spent time making a game/song/movie and you're just stealing their hard work. Because that's the bottom line.

Yes, I'm a programmer. I know what it takes to get software to a customer. And I wouldn't have a job if they said "well, I can copy it, so I'm not gonna pay you". And no "system change" will correct that (or are you thinking of communism - everybody gets paid and eveybody get's the same salary).

7 years ago
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A physical commodity is the delivered commodity at the end of a contract.

As far as I'm aware, software is not a physical commodity precisely because it is not a tangible good. It can be delivered at the end of a contract and traded as a commodity, but it is not a physical commodity in the same respect as gold or silver. In any case, I wasn't using "physical commodity" in any sort of technical sense; I was referring strictly to the fact that software is a commodity that is, by definition, not physical. It can be physically transported by encoding it onto a disk or other storage device or hardware, but the software itself is not a physical, tangible commodity (and shouldn't be a commodity at all).

So why isn't software that you buy a commodity (you order a game = contract, you get the game = physical commodity).

Because you are not purchasing a physical commodity. You are purchasing a copy of the software that has been encoded onto a storage device. Strictly speaking, you are purchasing the physical product on which the software is encoded and the license to legally use that product; you aren't even purchasing the product itself, copy or otherwise. In that same sense, there is no such thing as actually purchasing the game or software itself on Steam; users simply purchase licenses to play a copy of the game or use a copy of the software, which can be revoked at any time.

Software may be a commodity, but that is another matter entirely. I oppose the commodification of software, just as I oppose the commodification of labor, capital goods, and basically everything else.

Just because you can copy it without deterioration doesn't change what it is.

Yes it most certainly does. If some this is infinitely duplicable and reproducible, it is no longer governed by the law of natural scarcity. It is, for all intents and purposes, a post-scarcity good. As such, it makes no rational sense to restrict access to it or copies of it. The only way doing so makes sense is from a bourgeois perspective, where socially constructed notions of property are treated as sacrosanct dicta which allots the owner with unlimited exclusionary rights over that which one owns, regardless of how useful it may be to society or needed it may be by others.

You can steal an apple, but that doesn't mean it's free all of a sudden.

An apple is a physical, tangible good that is not infinitely reproducible. Unlike software, apples are consumed in the process of their use and deteriorate over time. It's simply dishonest of you to compare software to an apple. Either that, or you legitimately can't conceptually distinguish between the two, in which case you may just not be intellectually fit for this discussion.

You can xerox a dollar bill, that doesn't make it legitimate money.

That's because money isn't just paper. It's a complex weave of multiple fabrics and metals with government-issued technology embedded in, and imprinted on, each and every single bill. If you were to acquire a money-printing machine, however, and manufacture facsimiles of a given country's currency complete with their own unique serial codes, then those printed bills would be, for all intents and purposes, actual money and would be accepted as such anywhere in the world that accepts those bills. They may not have been printed by an official agency or institution, and thus may be legally classified as counterfeit, but they would nevertheless function as money.

Because that's probably closest to your case.

In a physically analogous sense, perhaps, and in fact it only buttresses my point. The only reason why money isn't available for free access, however, is because of its function as a currency—which, consequently, is what gives money its value. Software isn't a currency and moreover isn't even physically real, so such restrictions do not apply.

Software/music/movies can be copied without deterioration, so it has no value.

That's absurd. Value is, fundamentally, a subjective quality as determined by subjective agents. When treated as an objective quality, value has many forms, two of which are exchange-value and use-value (utility). Just because something is infinitely duplicable, that doesn't mean each duplicate does not have use-value. Even in contemporary capitalism, those copies (or, strictly speaking, licenses to use those copies) still have exchange-value, hence why they can be priced on the market.

I don't know what notion of value you have, but it doesn't appear to have any basis in reality, material or otherwise.

Let's say you're a student. But at graduation, you're getting an elf spotting certificate. Which is very nice, but useless. Because that's what happens. You spent a lot of years at university and end up with a useless certificate.

Are you seriously telling me that the value of attending college or university is solely determined by that résumé-aggrandizing piece of toilet paper you get upon graduation? Surely, you aren't serious? That may be one of the functions of colleges and universities in contemporary capitalism, but even in capitalism that isn't its only value.

Well, people spent time making a game/song/movie and you're just stealing their hard work. Because that's the bottom line.

Like I already explained, the notion of "theft"—and, similarly, of "property"—is rendered absurd when applied to intangible and infinitely duplicable products like software. It may seem to make sense, since you accept spooky as fuck nonsense like "intellectual property rights" as true, but that is only because you are viewing it from a fundamentally bourgeois perspective. You have yet to prove that any theft is occurring, or that the software is even their property. You are simply treating them as a priori givens because you uncritically accept them as true and never bothered to consider whether maybe they even make sense from and outside perspective.

Yes, I'm a programmer. I know what it takes to get software to a customer. And I wouldn't have a job if they said "well, I can copy it, so I'm not gonna pay you".

Welcome to capitalism, where your very life and livelihood is dependent on your economic activities, rather than your economic activities depend on your life and livelihood.

And no "system change" will correct that (or are you thinking of communism - everybody gets paid and eveybody get's the same salary).

That's not what communism is. Do you have the slightest clue whatsoever what communism is? Like at all?

7 years ago*
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"Are you seriously telling me that the value of attending college or university is solely determined by that résumé-aggrandizing piece of toilet paper you get upon graduation?"

If you seriously can't grasp the overly simple thing I'm saying here it's no use.

Also since movies and music seem to have a use value and software hasn't means you've got a strange view on things. All 3 are identical in use and value determination.

Final words: Yes. I blacklisted you. Not because of this. Because of the first remark you made in this thread. If you basically say a big f*ck you to developers, you certainly don't deserve to win games from me. And what are you doing on here anyway? Why the 50+ wins? Why the giveaways to reach level 1? You can just download everything, right?

7 years ago
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If you seriously can't grasp the overly simple thing I'm saying here it's no use.

My best guess is that you're using a poor analogy to describe how digital piracy causes the developers of the product to have wasted their time, since they didn't get a reward for their work in the form of money. If that is your point, then my response is that what you're noticing is a problem inherent to capitalism, not to the free access of software. It is also capitalism which causes developers and programmers like you to be more focused on, interested in, and worried about remuneration than about enjoying the actual work you're doing (which you ostensibly enjoy, as most programmers and developers do). Rather than simply being proud of the work one did, deriving satisfaction from that work, and relishing in the fact that countless people are using and enjoying the product of one's labor, one are more concerned about the monetary remuneration for that work because in capitalism, one depends on that money to live.

Also since movies and music seem to have a use value and software hasn't means you've got a strange view on things.

I didn't say that software doesn't have use-value. Of course it does.

Final words: Yes. I blacklisted you. Not because of this. Because of the first remark you made in this thread. If you basically say a big f*ck you to developers, you certainly don't deserve to win games from me. And what are you doing on here anyway? Why the 50+ wins? Why the giveaways to reach level 1? You can just download everything, right?

In other words, you blacklisted me because you are personalizing my position and taking offense to it rather than judging its merits. I merely suggested that digital piracy is an option and that it better serves the OP's interests to pirate both games rather than spend money on them. I told the OP to do whatever he wants here, and even said that I would consider purchasing Eldritch due to the special circumstances of the the developer and publisher in that same post. Perhaps if I wasn't living in poverty and I actually had a source of income that allowed me to afford such luxuries, I wouldn't consider piracy as much myself, but those are the circumstances I live in and I damn sure will do what helps me with the daily struggle of poverty rather than basically donate what little money I have to some strangers just because I used a product they produced.

I have won many giveaways because I have entered into many giveaways. I had given away a few games back when I actually had spending money and I didn't have to worry about whether I could afford food, and that money was actually given to me by family for me to spend on myself. I decided to do giveaways instead because back then I wanted to give back to the community, and that low-quality garbage was all I could afford. Reaching Lv. 1 was also nice, since it opened me up to the largest bloc of giveaways beyond Lv. 0, but that was secondary to why I gave them away.

Some games are not available for being pirated, or the copies available are either untrustworthy or poor quality. Anyway, having a legitimate copy allows me to connect it to my Steam account, which gives me access to the Steam Achievements, which I used to care about.

7 years ago*
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LUFTRAUSERS looks better to me

7 years ago
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Eldritch is technically short ( I think there is an achievement for completing it in 10 minutes), but as it has randomly generated areas with random loot, random shops and items. It has a really nice style in my opinion, but it's up to you to decide how long can this entertain you

7 years ago
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I suppose it's technically short if you are familiar with how to play the game, you're adept at playing it, and do so with the intent of finishing quickly—either that, or your a savant at such games. I've watched streamers play Eldritch for hours and even on runs where they got far into the game, it generally took them at least 10–20 minutes, though usually 30 minutes and longer.

7 years ago
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True, I forgot to write the part that generally speaking it's a proper game, according to Steam I played 5 hours with it and finished the first area of the 3 or 4 only, and it was still a lot of fun. I think I wanted to emphasize that it's not an RPG with proper story, but similarly arcade-styled like Luftrausers. Thanks for the needed correction :)

7 years ago*
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No problem. I agree with you, I just don't want people to mistake that it's a short game. It's technically short, like you stated, but it's only "short" insomuch as any games of its type are. After all, games like The Binding of Isaac or Legend of Dungeon can be quick if you can play it effectively.

7 years ago
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Eldritch offers a lot more "content"

Luftrausers I would argue offers more "replayability"

I didn't really enjoy either, so I can't really say too much, but yeah, Eldritch wins.

7 years ago
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In terms of raw content, Eldritch wins hands down, but if you're the kind of person who enjoys score attack games, then LUFTRAUSERS offers more replay value.

7 years ago
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Eldritch all the way. Lovecraftian monsters, exploration, rogue dying. But, I haven't played Luftrausers to be sincere.

7 years ago
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Closed 4 years ago by Soulitaire.