better buy directly from steam or other official 3rd party key resellers than do both of those , grey market and pirating are almost the same :)
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developers are calling g2a worse than pirating as they have to deal with key / credit card fraud and support for something they received nothing from on an inital sale.
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yeah and i totally agree with them on that , and buying from sites like g2a will just give more money to those who does not deserve it while adding extra cost to the people who actually need it especially indie devs who are so passionate in the making of their games which is sad to see :(
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when you buy from g2a and sites like it you'll not harm the developpers but also you'll provide those grey market people extra money to even harm the developpers more and more
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But they completely ignore that most of the sales generated on these sites come from legit keys from cheap regions. Of course they get money that way. Grey market sites are rightfully criticised for several things. But we shouldn't paint such a black&white picture of the situation.
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There is best, and various worse options, in order of how bad they are. We know the best is to buy, that is absolutely the truth. But the article / OP's intent was to say that sometimes an option is much worse than it looks like.
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yeah exactly , i for instance did not have any methode of buying games from my country until 2014 , since then i started paying for my own games and re-buying games i pirated before whenever i can even though my country does not have any regional pricing and a new AAA release is almost or even little bit higher than 1/4 of my salary but even though i prefer to save up and get the games i want knowing that my money is going to the people who made it instead of having my money going wasted to someone who does not deserve it and harming the developpers along the way . the only way i agree with piracy is when you have absoloutely no way of buying games " which is different from not being able to afford them since anyone can do some saving " and in the intention of buying what you pirated once you are provided with a way to pay for it , the other good argument people may make about piracy like using it as a demo i say that's bs now that we have youtube and twitch where you can see people playing the game live and it should give you a clear idea and sometimes better idea of how the game is and if it'll be worth your money , not to mention the 2h gameplay before refund . so to sum it up , as a former pirate i can agree that buying games from grey market is far worst than pirating for both you and the game developper :)
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You mean either right? Pirating AND buying off grey market seems a bit... Useless. :D
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Is there a list of games this guy affiliated with? I will do as he said - just torrent instead of buying. If he is so dumb to believe no money at all is better than money with discount - then who am I to argue? My torrent client is ready.
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They get no money at all in both cases, but at least people don't expect them to provide support for pirated games.
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Most of games on grey market are just bought from legit stores on highest discount and then re-sold with higher price.
Yes, there are some cases where keys are bought with stolen cards, but that's negligible amount. But of course publisher only notices those cases, as they require attention. So they only see the tip of the iceberg and jump to assumptions.
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The credit card cases are a lot more frequent than you may think - so much so that some smaller developers had to stop selling the game via their website because they were losing all their money to credit card charge-backs. And exploiting regional pricing only leads to region locks or the removal of regional pricing, which doesn't benefit anyone.
If the developer really wanted to earn pennies on the dollar, they could have a super sale on their game, perhaps by bundling it together with other games into a soft of "game bundle". That would allow them to sell their game at a ridiculously low price while still earning something, and avoid the grey market resellers that make a profit from reselling the developer's game and don't pass any of those proceeds onto the developer. Now if only there was a site, or sites, that sold such game bundles...
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If they were frequent - people would not buy from gray market. The fact that people still buy, and buy a lot, from grey resellers, proves that keys are revoked rarely, and that, in turn, means that cases with stolen cards are rare.
they could have a super sale on their game
You know, thing is, publishers do believe that if someone won't buy their game with discount (that they put there themselves!) - then the same person will buy it full price. So, they count it as lost income. But in reality, this person almost never will buy for full price, they'll just wait till next sale.
And once again, if some particular publisher willingly allowed me to pirate their games - then they don't want my money, and I won't feel guilt for downloading their games from torrent. And even will brag that I saved them some money!
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Purchases made with stolen credit cards are much more frequent than key revocations. Most developers don't want to deal with the backfire, reputation loss and huge amount of support tickets asking why the game got revoked.
Ubisoft did it once for thousands of illegally bought Far Cry 4 keys back in 2015, but later decided to replace the keys and as far as I'm aware they never did it again since then, even though illegal purchases obviously still do happen.
[EDIT] Also: https://twitter.com/devolverdigital/status/466588027708375040
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"If they were frequent - people would not buy from gray market. The fact that people still buy, and buy a lot, from grey resellers, proves that keys are revoked rarely, and that, in turn, means that cases with stolen cards are rare"
That's some mental gymnastics right there. People still buy from grey resellers because it's still the cheapest option for them, they already made up their mind. Most people that already buy hundreds of cheap games from grey resellers won't stop buying because of a few cases of invalid or revoked keys. In their mind they're still saving money buying from there even if negative experiences occur from time to time. Just go on any popular game on G2A (Prey 2017 for example) and then scroll down to offers. You can see there that even the most successful sellers, with over 90% positive feedback, still have hundreds if not thousands of negative rep. If you don't work in the game industry, in grey markets or don't even have proofs to back up your claims, then everything you said is your own speculation and you should treat is as such, not as facts. You and me don't have the slightest clue of how frequent or not it is. If you still want to buy from grey resellers or use torrents then go ahead but stop trying to justify it by throwing the blame at the devs or publishers. Be a man, admit that what you're doing is wrong, keep doing it if that's what you want and move along, no need to be shitty.
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Most people that already buy hundreds of cheap games from grey resellers won't stop buying because of a few cases of invalid or revoked keys
v
few cases
v
FEW
That's what I said. It's rare.
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Few cases per person, it's rare per person. Of course if it would happen more than 50% of the time to every person no one would ever buy from there again, that's common sense. But the few cases per person then multiply it a few hundred thousand times or a few million times (since they claim they have 16 million customers) and you'll see it's not that few anymore. They implemented their G2A shield for this exact reason.
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Now you're starting being childish just for the sake of not losing the argument. Yea also 0.016% of people die in car accidents worldwide every year, that's a small percentage indeed but still that's 1.3 million deaths, do you consider that a small number even though it's a small percentage? Even if it happened to 1% out of all their customers (and I can bet it's way more than that), that's still 160k cases of bad keys, which is a lot. Actually I just went on a random game on G2A (Call of Duty: Black Ops II), I scrolled down to offers, I added every sellers negative rep from the last 12 months and I ended up with 9.669 negative rep. That's 26 negative cases per day my dude, plus I only added the negative rep from 21 sellers and G2A claims they have 400,000 sellers. It's rare my ass.
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Now you're starting being childish just for the sake of not losing the argument.
That's just rude. You even ready to insult me for the sake of not losing the argument. Great.
do you consider that a small number even though it's a small percentage?
I can't see humankind abandoned cars because of that. And I definitely don't believe someone will say "you better just go to street and kill someone than driving a car!". That would be ridiculously exaggerating, and so is the phrase we discussing here.
(and I can bet it's way more than that)
And I would agree to bet against it. But sadly we have no way to know for sure.
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That's just rude. You even ready to insult me for the sake of not losing the argument. Great."
Wow you got offended by being called childish? Isn't that more proof in itself that you're being childish? If that seriously offended you so much then my bad.
I can't see humankind abandoned cars because of that. And I definitely don't believe someone will say "you better just go to street and kill someone than driving a car!". That would be ridiculously exaggerating, and so is the phrase we discussing here."
It was an analogy. I gave you an example that a small percentage of huge number can still result in a big number. Why you decided to continue talking about cars I have no idea.
And I would agree to bet against it. But sadly we have no way to know for sure."
Then if you have no way to know for sure (as I said myself earlier) why did you continue blabbering about how rare or not it is? I, at least, provided you some numbers showing you it might be more frequent than you think (a part of my comment that you didn't even address) but you've provided only your personal speculations. We can go on arguing all day if that's what you want.
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It seems you are too childish to admit you are wrong, and to lazy to think even a second about it, you just keep blabbering some nonsense. I guess it's time for me to quit.
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Lazy? You're trying to use my own words against me, now that's lazy. Wrong about what? You never proved me wrong about anything. I may be childish from time to time I agree, but I can admit I'm wrong when I'm wrong. Prove me wrong and I'll admit it. Something that you yourself can't seem to do, you'd faster give up than admit you're wrong.
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You know, thing is, publishers do believe that if someone won't buy their game with discount (that they put there themselves!) - then the same person will buy it full price. So, they count it as lost income. But in reality, this person almost never will buy for full price, they'll just wait till next sale.
No, they don't - https://www.gamasutra.com/view/news/174587/Steam_sales_How_deep_discounts_really_affect_your_games.php
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You know, I'm inclined to agree.
Devs say: "Pirate our games." I say: "With pleasure!" :D
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One does not imply the other. Revoking keys is a PR nightmare for developers and publishers. It only hurts the people who bought those keys, not the resellers who profit from stealing them.
Every time a major publisher revokes keys, users get upset and lash out against them on social media. For an indie, it could be a the end of them. It's generally better for developers and publishers to just let stolen keys go than to revoke them.
Think about it, if you bought a key from a grey market and it was revoked, would you think, "Oh, I shouldn't have bought that game from a grey market source. Let me make it right by buying it on Steam!"? Unlikely. You'd most likely think, "WTF? My key was revoked? That I paid money for? F this dev, F this publisher, I'm going to go tell everyone about this injustice!"
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"Oh, I shouldn't have bought that game from a grey market source.
That's exactly what I would think. What else?
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chargeback fees are fucking massive though. Even if the number of stolen cards was "negligible" (which i dont believe it is), chargeback fees add up extremely quickly.
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No matter where the key originally came from, a purchase on G2A still brings no money to the developer. (The purchase, if legit, already happened somewhere else.)
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Oh really? So buying physical copies on CD also don't - all those money go to the shop owner, developer not getting even a penny. The purchase, if legit, already happened somewhere else. So, following your logic - buying physical copy is worse than a piracy.
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Mmmh. How many PC games do you own that has a physical disk and was released since the appearance of G2A?
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None. But I know some people who bought disks recently, with modern games.
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Uh-huh. And what exactly? Genuinely interested, since I know maybe two games like that on PC.
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Do you understand that I have to search for it, because I never bought it myself? Ok, let's see what I can find in discord history:
https://www.eldorado.ru/cat/detail/71214820/ Dishonored 2 for 99 RUB (~$1.6). DVD, legit store.
https://www.mvideo.ru/products/videoigra-dlya-pc-batman-rycar-arkhema-40063788 69 RUB (~$1.1)
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Heh, do you know what is usually on a Bethesda-published disk? A code for Bethesda.net or Steam, and a small install file that connects to the server and starts to download the game.
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More or less. The phrasing was terrible. (Then again, it is a plague on this site, the FAQ wording is almost as terrible as the Steam Grand Prix rules.) Now I understand that you actually meant to say "retail copy." In that case, yes, valid point.
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Sorry for bad phrasing. English is not native for me, I'm trying to improve it, but it takes time.
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Eh, it is okay. Common thing, sometimes even among native English speakers. The problems can only arise in these situations when the meaning can change a bit. ^.^
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What do you mean? Physical copies are still completely normal on PC and are available for most big games. Doesn't have to be an actual disc inside, of course. But retail copies are not rare or anything. Which is why you often get a scan of a retail box when buying on those grey market sites. Ryzhehvost is not wrong about this.
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He said "physical copies on CD." Haven't seen one on PC in ages.
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As in "the whole game is on disc"? Right, that would be quite rare nowadays. But for this discussion all that matters is the key in the retail box. The content of the CD/DVD (if there even is one) doesn't really matter. The key is what gets resold on grey market sites.
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Physical copies run out if they are sold and gets purchased again from the publisher, and the bigger the numbers the bigger the discount. It's a completely different matter than digital copies. Not related at all.
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Oh come on, think at least a little bit! Grey market don't have unlimited supply of keys, they need to buy them from the publisher, it's not different at all.
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If the purchase happened with the intention to sell on G2A, then yes, that does matter. If they buy cheap retail copies to sell on a grey market site, that initial sale is directly linked to the sale on that website, and it therefore does generate revenue for the publisher/developer. Not as much as in more expensive countries, obviously. But it does.
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I'm not too familiar with this stuff, but wouldn't fraudulent purchases be refunded or charged back? If so, wouldn't that mean the keys are useless after a while since they'd be revoked?
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Because of the backlash that happens when developers are revoking keys (because gamers are usually attacking the developer and not the fraudster where they bought their key) most developer won't revoke keys, or at least not those that have been already activted. Chargeback also doesn't happen right away, so usually many keys have been sold off before the dev has a chance to do something about it
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Sorry, but the only time this has really had any backlash was when Ubisoft did it. That was also because it was over a game that was overhyped, overpriced and people didn't sympathize with the big monolith who, at worst, lost like 20-30k of profit.
When indies have revoked keys and they've actually explained themselves when they did it publicly, then it's been fine and it's barely even hit news sites. Maybe I'm missing a crucial part here or something still.
Regardless, I appreciate the response.
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it's no money either way. It's actively loss of money in G2A's case.
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to stole drugs is better than buying from dealers, etc
but its still wrong, at least the thief is not earning money
who is dumb here ?
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The opinions that "pirating games is better than buying them on G2A" and that "G2A is the biggest cancer of the gaming industry" have been heavily promoted by TotalBiscuit since early 2016. Since then many developers adopted this first motto and if you wanted to make a list of games "you now will pirate" you'd have to include at least a few dozens of indie devs as well as some bigger studios and publishers like Devolver Digital, Bethesda or Ubisoft.
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I don't mind if the list will be big. If they want it - why would I argue? I'm a good guy, I'll pirate.
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They don't say they want you to pirate, they're just saying that pirating isn't as bad as buying from G2A and the like.
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Following THIS logic, piracy is also better than winning from steamgifts, you know.
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Because you pay how much to enter SteamGifts raffles, exactly? It is less or more than you pay for a key on G2A?
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According to Zomby2D it doesn't matter, because
They get no money at all in both cases
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There are plenty of steamgift giveaways where keys were bought from real retailers where the developers received money. I can get what you're trying to say but that logic is even more flawed when suggesting that "piracy is also better than winning from steamgifts".
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This logic is not my, it's Zomby2D's. So, tell him you are not agree, not me. I can see flaws of this logic good enough.
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I mean, not exactly? Steamgifts is kinda like trading in the sense you're taking a product you own/bought and giving it. If there's a problem, you generally have to buy another copy or delete it, in which case the devs lose nothing because no copy is given, or another one is bought. In that sense, giving stuff during birthdays or holidays makes no sense since the product owners don't earn money through the transaction, even though they did beforehand. Now if every giveaway here was from a site like G2A, then you'd be right.
However, on a purely business based perspective, Steamgifts is worse then sites like Fanatical or Humble Bundle, and def worse then Steam directly because there are plenty of shady keys that do end up working but shouldn't have been used. I won't argue any of the other G2A/Piracy/Whatever because there are too many people talking about that and I don't have a good opinion on that
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I would agree. To sum it up Steam > steamgifts > piracy > grey market. I'd say it's more complicated than that and there is also some opinion involved. But yeah that's the order I'd put it in
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You took his words
pirating isn't as bad as buying from G2A and the like
and turned them into your own version of "his" logic saying
piracy is also better than winning from steamgifts
He never said that and his logic does not lead to that to something like that. As I explained in my previous comment and you agreed with that statement that piracy is indeed not better than winning from steamgifts.
I was merely pointing out that the words you pushed upon him saying his logic is the same as saying "piracy is also better than winning from steamgifts" is flawed and fallacious built on a strawman argument.
pirating isn't as bad as buying from G2A and the like
vs
piracy is also better than winning from steamgifts
= two very different scenarios and cannot be said that if you agree with one then you have to agree with the other. They are mutually exclusive and one can be true while the other is false.
Edit: No harm meant from my side, just wanted to point out that his point is different.
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He never said that and his logic does not lead to that to something like that.
It does. I'm very good at logic. Why piracy is better than G2A? Because G2A can have keys bought with stolen cards. Can SG have keys bought with stolen cards? Of course it can. So no difference between G2A and SG in this aspect. Ergo, SG is worse than piracy. If it's right in one case - it can't be wrong in another case. If it's wrong in one case - it can't be right in another. So, either SG is worse than piracy or some publishers are dumb.
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Do SG users sell games on this site for a profit?
No.
You said:
Why piracy is better than G2A? Because G2A can have keys bought with stolen cards. Can SG have keys bought with stolen cards? Of course it can. So no difference between G2A and SG in this aspect.
Can you buy games from Steam or Humble with a stolen credit card for yourself ?
Yes !
Thus the argument your making that by buying a game with a stolen credit card = site worse than piracy means that even steam and humble fall under that category which is absurd.
Mr "I'm very good at logic", your reasoning does not make sense here. Don't take it personal man. PS. I don't endorse piracy at all.
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Well... G2A is destroying the market. You do understand that the reason Humble Bundle and sites like that aren't giving away as many good games in their bundles is because of G2A and places like it. Developers have started to realise that bundling their games is a death sentence because they'll be bought en masse and sold for profit on grey market sites. They'll never sell for anywhere near even half value ever again.
If you go to a shop during Black Friday and buy a TV, you can't expect that it will be forever discounted. The issue with games is that this is exactly what happens due to the number of keys available. They can't limit numbers for subscription services like Humble, so it's a bit of a mess.
I would much rather wait for a sale than buy from a reseller, that's just me.
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Well, I do agree that g2a and similar services are bad for marked. But honestly, do you think if people will pirate instead this will help market even a little?
If you go to a shop during Black Friday and buy a TV, you can't expect that it will be forever discounted.
People sometimes buy something during black friday just to resell. And I never heard that some shop owner said "better take my TV for free than buying used one!"
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Yes, but you missed my point. During Black Friday, resellers might get their hands on one, maybe two of those TVs, not 100s or 1000s. It doesn't hurt the market because there's a VERY limited number up for grabs. Once they are gone, they are gone. With games, the numbers are not limited. These resellers are basically buying up a huge supply. Even getting them from bundles like Humble, totally ruining the whole premise behind it.
As for "torrent, don't buy from G2A" not helping the market. Think about it this way. If people torrented instead of buying from grey market sites, there wouldn't be such a high demand. There wouldn't be a gazillion keys out there. More people would go to the legit site and buy games, some would still torrent no matter what. Some would never pay full price anyway and wait for sales, but... in the long run, games wouldn't be relegated to their bundle price forever. You must remember that there are a huge number of people who game, but don't buy or really know much about bundles. Those people are going to see those ads to buy a game cheaper on G2A and buy it there instead of Steam.
On top of that, developers wouldn't be expected to sort out problems for people who bought their keys via grey-market sites only to find out that they don't work. Why should the dev of a game have to fix a problem for you when you knowingly took a risk and went to G2A for your key? People are so dumb... I can't even understand people like this. If your key doesn't work, you bring your dispute up with the place you bought it from. >.>
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More people would go to the legit site and buy games
No, they will continue pirating.
I can't even understand people like this. If your key doesn't work, you bring your dispute up with the place you bought it from. >.>
Yes, this is dumb. But those people also do the same when buying from legit stores, and YES, issues happens with those too. But for some really strange reason devs don't claim that pirating is better than buying from legit stores. I wonder why.
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You assume that everyone who buys from grey market sites would just pirate the games anyway. That's most certainly not the case. My brother is one of those. If he sees a game going cheap on a grey market site, he's been tempted to buy and was kinda pushing me that way, but otherwise, likes to have his games on Steam. You cannot pirate games for your Steam library. So yes, there are a percentage of people who WOULD buy their games legitimately.
Sometimes when they see an ad for something cheap, it's hard to resist. I generally follow the rule that if something is too good to be true, it generally is. I have never risked buying grey market and I'll never do it. Other people do, and they're not piraters. So... yeah.
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You assume that everyone who buys from grey market sites would just pirate the games anyway.
I assume that because some publishers said it would be better, so I evaluate this possibility. So yes, in a world those publishers would consider better place - this would be a thing. People would pirate instead of buying from gray market.
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Reseller prices are not precisely free. Maybe they should get better prices for the digital titles. What is not normal is to have the physical copy with steam key for 10-20 euros in retail and 30-60 euros on steam "sales" only digital months and years after release. As a consumer i couldt care less about what they think with these policies.
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just to play devil's advocate, the physical copy that's been reduced to $10-$20 euros will not be replaced with another copy - the retailer is trying to get rid of it so they can stock their limited shelf-space with new games people are willing to pay full price for
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The G2A keys are coming from devs and pub in the end, if you don't want your game to be sold in gray sites just don't make keys for it
Asking people to use torrent and get a lot of viruses instead of buying legitimate code they got from devs/3rd party sites is clearly a Bulls*it
before doing that let him release drm-free copy and asking people to support them
This dev has only 2 games, action henk which bundled ton of times (not a good game anyway ) and this "descenders" which is not my type
games like witcher 3/ DMC5 were released as drm-free and they still succeed and make ton of support and profit
If you made a not good game that doesn't make a good profit, don't blame gray markets
P.S i'm not defending gray markets here, but asking people to use torrent show the dev careless about his clients
P.S It is the first time i see or hear about this game "descenders" a game with peak 100 players seems already dead for me
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It's not so simple. Sometimes you sell keys to a third party that doesn't give you the money, other times are fraudulent YouTube review era that ask for keys for reviews, nd it's a lie.
At least with torrent, developers don't have extra costs like credit card fraud.
Also, have you seen how the numbers of game bundles have decreased? Blame it on G2A
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It's not so simple
It is
Sometimes you sell keys to a third party that doesn't give you the money
You dont have to, is that happen with humble bundle? or you are talking about sites like bunch keys?
other times are fraudulent YouTube review era that ask for keys for reviews, nd it's a lie.
Youtube keys are very few, and you have to have a big number of followers , i dont think 50-100 copies will harm the devs
At least with torrent, developers don't have extra costs like credit card fraud.
let them release drm-free then
Also, have you seen how the numbers of game bundles have decreased? Blame it on G2A
You are talking about humble bundle right? fanatical, indiegala and other sites still doing good
For humble bundle: maybe people make the full payment for the charity, or humble bundle takes much fees and devs get very low profit from this
If a game cost 10$ on g2a, and has the same discount on steam, people will never buy from g2a
usually people sell their leftovers for cheap, and g2a sellers are buying games from humble store, like grim down is usually 7$ at humble store but they sell it for 10-20$ on g2a
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You are talking about humble bundle right? fanatical, indiegala and other sites still doing good
By still doing good, you mean rebundling the same games over and over (Fanatical) or bundling trash by the dozens in moderately priced bundles (Indiegala)? Because that's not really good.
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you mean rebundling the same games over and over
even hb is doing that,and they put bundled games the their monthlies
with humble bundle you get a new bundle with 1-2 games no bundled before
fanatical is the same with lower price and they are not talking about charity
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Also, have you seen how the numbers of game bundles have decreased? Blame it on G2A
SO much this! Devs are getting ripped by bots getting bundles by the hundreds and reselling on G2A so they don't want to play the bundle game anymore. Can't blame them
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once the game bundled, it is done you wont buy it at the full price any more
so it doesn't matter if bots got ton of copies or not check what Factorio devs say
https://steamcommunity.com/app/427520/discussions/0/2592234299545022370/
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From the developer's perspective, the options are:
1) Customer pirates game, pays nothing, developer doesn't get paid.
2) Customer buys game from grey market reseller, pays something, developer still doesn't get paid.
So if the developer won't see any money from the sale anyway, they might as well save the customer some money.
If only there was a way for the developer to sell their game at a huge discount, for pennies on the dollar, perhaps by bundling their game together with other games into a sort of "game bundle", and sell that bundle through an authorized reseller...
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developer still doesn't get paid.
How that seller got the game? he got it from the dev or the pub, so he paid for it in a way or another
So if the developer won't see any money from the sale anyway
Because their game is bad and no one buying it
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As others have pointed out, keys are often given away to influencers or are effectively stolen via stolen credit cards of credit card chagebacks. Some indie developers had to stop selling via their website due to credit card fraud and the fees that they incurred as a result.
Because their game is bad and no one buying it
Now you're just being mean. If their game is bad, why are you buying it from a grey market seller?
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As others have pointed out, keys are often given away to influencers or are effectively stolen via stolen credit cards of credit card chagebacks. Some indie developers had to stop selling via their website due to credit card fraud and the fees that they incurred as a result.
Again, they dont have to sell their games outside of steam, they are stealing steam this way dont pay fees to steam
Now you're just being mean. If their game is bad, why are you buying it from a grey market seller?
What is your point? i'm not buying the game anyway, if the game was good, ton of people will buy it, the devs wont care about gray market and they won't produce more steam keys
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They were selling on their website via the Humble widget, which still takes about the same cut as selling on Steam. It was just convenient for consumers since people could buy a copy right on the website rather than having to be redirected to Steam.
What is your point? i'm not buying the game anyway
If you're not going to buy the game anyway, why are you arguing in favor of grey market resellers? :)
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They were selling on their website via the Humble widget
Then hb will get all the problems, not the devs
If you're not going to buy the game anyway, why are you arguing in favor of grey market resellers? :)
Because the devs are retard and asking people to use torrent, btw, i think you need to re-read all my comments, because you are asking the same question again and again , i already said i'm not defending gray market https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/abfqjeb
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2a) Customer buys game from grey market reseller, pays something, developer still doesn't get paid, developer gets nailed with chargeback fee if it is one of the many mass-purchases using a 'gamed' or stolen source. Dev loses money while the grey market makes it.
Hence why they suggest you pirate it for free, that way the devs do not lose money, the grey market gets nothing, and the customer gets the game.
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its not the site but sellers that steal cc# buy lots of games to sell on said site then the devs get charge backs on all the purchases.
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Asking people to use torrent and get a lot of viruses instead of buying legitimate code they got from devs/3rd party sites is clearly a Bulls*it
The idea that torrents are filled with viruses is also BS though. That's FUD spread by (some) publishers in order to scare would-be pirates. They're banking on how cracks, due to their nature (they mess with other processes, RAM contents, etc), very often trigger antivirus software. Kind of like CheatEngine and trainers.
(I'm not taking any responsibility if a random torrent you grab infects your PC and burns down your house though, just saying 👀)
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90% of the Action Henk Keys on G2A are prob. from the bundle it was in.
They already saw money for that and if people want to sell this game because they don't like it, it should be fine.
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The things is devs are not getting a lot of money from bundles and they are using bundles as promotional tools. Sales used to be limited (in time so in number of buyers) and they'd get more players on MP games and maybe a few reviews on Steam, making their game more visible for regular sales/full price buyers.
Then G2A happened. Being able to sell unused keys from a bundle was not a bad thing but it's been taken over by the parasites who are killing every part of the gaming industry they attach to long enough to make a profit and then move on to another one once they corpsed the one they're on. These guys started to use bots to get bundles by the thousands, and the keys are reselling for months, making it impossible for devs to get any profit from the game once the bundle is over.
If it was just regular buyers getting a bundle and reselling a few keys, it would definitely be fine. But it's not. It's the same guys who killed the Steam cards market by turning it into an industry.
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Bundles weren't an invention of the game industry and they are used to sell products at a late life cycle phase, to get rid of bad sellers (for digital products only with the aim to make fast cash or to promote) or to gather new customers (e.g. a genre a gamer hasn't played before).
But in the meantime game bundles included games just released, even pre-released and many repeats. There are bundles based on one dev/publisher, though it wasn't necessary to bundle some of these games at that time, so they only wanted to have promotion.
In the beginning of the bundle era some devs might not have been predictive, but if they nowadays expect many people to buy games, which were much cheaper at some point due to bundles or heavy discounts, in such a saturated market they are plain naive. Most customers have enough to play, then there's gifting, trading, there's always a bundle running, there is always a sale at one or another reseller and a big F2P market.
Maybe we're already at the end of the bundle era. HB's fewer bundles, Fanatical's lottery and IG's fewer bundles (but at least better quality than before) seem to be indication for this.
I agree that G2A is probably the worst. There are reports how they further increase the difficulty for small sellers, their fees are scam, the requirements for their new "money-back-guarantee" is hilarious and irresponsible and the industry gets hurt as well.
Fortunately, not every key seller is behaving like them.
But devs should take more into consideration if they generate and provide keys, be it for bundles, betas, influencers or anything else. Valve didn't restrict the key generation for the fun of it.
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worked for me for some years, but now im sticked only to steam and there are too many games, so no need, only for ea/ubisoft games in the future, but i dont really care for those if im honest.
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Steam made piracy obsolete for a lot of people. Also cloud saves are just far more convenient.
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Let alone cloud saves (I found that whenever I resume a game I haven't played in ages, I usually prefer to start a new game rather than start from a save), it may be cheaper to keep a game via Steam than to store it on your own storage solutions, provided you're going for a decent level of reliability (RAID + remote backup)
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Ah yes... commit a crime, guys! We don't see a dime, so please commit a crime because if we can't profit, no one else can.
Mind you, I'm not on the side of G2A here either. They and other gray market sites are total scum and they should be more regulated like Ebay (a classic option for trying to legitimize G2A), if not completely removed.
But this doesn't mean that because the developer's having issues with managing their finances, that the CONSUMER should suddenly start committing crimes. Nah, fuck that noise. You have to have a massive ego to think that you have the right to make such requests and demands. I empathize with them. I'd be extremely frustrated in their position. But either commit to your idea and release a DRM-free torrent on your own to avoid actual illegal acts or don't make these claims. Put your money where your mouth is and take the hit in the name of damaging G2A if you truly mean what you say. You shouldn't put your consumer base in such a position and I find it to be a total dick move.
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From my point of view this does not encourage me to "commit a crime". When someone says that something is worse than pirating games, it doesn't make pirating games any better in my eyes.
I also don't see why the developer should release a DRM-free torrent on their own (maybe it's connected to the above?). I do get that if they don't do it, then the game will be cracked by someone eventually, but the end-customers are still free to just not play the game if they don't have money to buy it.
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I also don't see why the developer should release a DRM-free torrent on their own (maybe it's connected to the above?).
Well, my thinking is this:
People buy a game from G2A, which is legal.
Developer says that instead of buying from G2A, they'd prefer the buyers actually pirate it. That's illegal.
Now in this case the developer is saying that instead of doing the legal thing, which doesn't benefit them, they should instead commit a crime, which is illegal (of course, depending on the country as well).
The developer should provide a DRM-free copy, not because of cracks, but because that would immediately make the act legal. Torrenting isn't illegal. It's the illegitimate software, that's illegal. Piracy usually requires you to download and also upload and usually, in most countries, at least one of those aspects is illegal.
So if they want to take this stand, then they should provide the means to do it. What they're requesting is illegal. The least they could do is make sure their potential client base won't commit an illegal act in their name.
but the end-customers are still free to just not play the game if they don't have money to buy it.
The end-customers are also free to buy the game from G2A at a way cheaper price, which is completely legal. A product's sold legally, so why can't you buy it other than moral reasons?
Once again, I feel like I need to add this, but I don't support G2A in this. I just find both sides to be wrong.
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I'd be extremely frustrated in their position
If they are so frustrated, they can just make sure every key they sell goes at the price they are comfortable selling it.
Put your money where your mouth is
+1
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"We make zero money on our games if people buy them through ads," he said.
Can anyone patiently explain to me what is the logic behind this (on their head of course)?
As far as I know, a game bought somewhere already gave their cut at the sold price.
Do they want to get another cut after get their cut? If the reseller sells to another reseller, will they want another cut after previous cuts?
If you extend, they must be very pissed with people trading games because same logic: zero cut after they get their cut.
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G2A is the worst site in the planet. They have stolen $50 from my account and I keep receiving emails being charged 1euro for not using my account for months. Having problem to delete it either haha
This site should be closed for a long time
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Maybe I'm missing something crucial here, but why didn't you just contest the payment and issue a charge back?
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I'll just leave this here. Some developers really do want you to torrent rather than buy from the grey market.
https://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2017-08-25-darkwood-developer-releases-its-own-game-on-pirate-bay
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That was an interesting read =)
And they have an "Overwhelmingly Positive" score on steam too. Good for them.
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when i buy a used car, the company who produced the car will get no money as well... thats how reselling works, i guess?
and yes, some cars might be stolen but if you are carefull, its pretty unlikly that you buy a stolen car... (also most cars should be legit)
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Reselling games is illegal just like reselling movies, on the beginning of a movie or a game they state that that work can't be reselled or copied
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just cause the company writes something, it dosnt need to be true. in Germany you are allowed by law to resell movies on dvd etc. (§ 17 UrhG)
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Digital goods abide by different laws. You can resell DVDs and other fisical things but you can't do it if they are digital
https://www.google.com/url?sa=t&source=web&rct=j&url=https://arstechnica.com/tech-policy/2016/05/reselling-digital-goods-europe-e-books-software/%3Famp%3D1&ved=2ahUKEwjJht7VuJbjAhXFxYUKHcqeA0YQFjAAegQIBhAB&usg=AOvVaw2SVUTd9fNcVb38DfP74xTD&cf=1
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Where does it say what you claim in that link? Because I read just the oposite:
"In short, if you've legally bought genuine software, or the license to use that software forever, you get to sell it on no matter what format you bought it in, and no matter what the licensing terms say. That's the EU-wide legal precedent."
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That was just one case, in the article they talk about multiple court cases and most defended that its not legal
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The other parts of the article are talking about other kinds of digital media, not software (the law is different). And even in the case of software, it's talking about reselling software licenses you've already used (and even this is legal), not unused licenses like keys are (if selling used licenses is legal, selling unused ones is even more clear). If it's illegal as you say, why no big publisher has even tried to take it to a court?
"The UsedSoft ruling was based on the EU's 2009 Software Directive, but things like e-books and music albums fall under a separate piece of EU legislation, the 2001 "InfoSoc" Directive on copyright and related rights in the information society."
[edit]
There's no law the covers the reselling of keys. So it's not illegal, but it's not regulated (hence the term "gray" in gray market. If it were illegal it would be called black market).
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You have individual papers for individual cars, and paypal refunds if the games were bought with fake cards - some places still allow offline systems, and they will get discovered only weeks later. And there is only the dev to be charged :\
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I know several indie and AAA devs and publishers, that feel the same way.
Expect to see more and more devs and publishers pushing for silent activation like Ubisoft and not giving actual keys anymore.
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Expect to see more and more devs and publishers pushing for silent activation like Ubisoft and not giving actual keys anymore.
Not on Steam though, since Valve doesn't want that. Humble tried it a while ago and had to stop it again. There are only a few exceptions (SEGA e.g.).
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Funny.
Where do the keyshopes have keys?
From box version no region lock countries.
So developers and publishers get money for every license.
But they are greedy and they want 60 USD/EUR for each license even from gamers who have monthly earnings ~ 300 EUR.
You don't remember when did it start? When people start reselling Call of Duty 4: Modern Warfare from Asia. It was 2007.
You don't remember when Rebellion unlawfully removed Sniper Elite 3 from steam accounts?
Conlusion. They have two options. They can sell each game for 60 EUR all over the world and 80% gamers return to piracy. Or they can use region lock for each country with regional price becuase I will never buy game on Steam or market for (comparing purchasing power local currency) 260 EUR/USD/GBP for base and 400 EUR/USD/GBP base + sp when I make 1600 EUR/USD/GBP per month.
For over 25 years of playing I bought only 2 games for the premiere: Black Ops 2 and Diablo 3. So they will never see my money.
And this is most important reason why CV system on SG is bad.
The last thing to US citizens. Today you pay for the new game = 60 USD. Tomorrow new games will cost 260 USD (this is price for me). Will you still buy new games? No, why? Games are entertainment for the "plebs" but in many countries it is luxury goods.
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Very well said. I live with 200 euro/month, simply can't afford 60 Euro titles. If I want to play games I either have to buy them from the cheapest source possible (grey or official retailer) or pirate them. I stopped pirating 6 years ago, but if grey market sites are banned, I will switch to piracy or PS4 where I can buy second hand games and resell games when I complete them.
Developers act as if reselling is a new thing, but pretty much 90% of the things you buy in life are being re-sold to you- cars, electronics, every food you've ever bought, etc.Now when I think of it, the last thing that I bought directly from the company that produced it was 11 months ago .
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I used to pirate almost everything when I was younger. But somewhere along the road I had a change of heart.
Ofc content creators should get payed for what they make - and I enjoy.
Luckily, I've never felt the need to use G2A and such shit sites. There are so many ways of coming across cheap legit deals anyway.
Granted it is way easier to get flushed with movies, music and games today - than there was 10-20 years ago.
Netflix, spotify, steam bundles ect ect..
I still have a grey zone though. Youtube and Adblockers. I'm sorry, but I can't stand another Shampoo or Gambling commercial popping up every 5 minutes. Which is also why I have not watched a regular TV show in 10-15 years.
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If steam and other sellers would be fair to every customer according to for example minimum salary in that country and don't just set region for European Union, where is salary from 300€ to more than 1500€ people will consider to buy only from these stores. It is difference to pay 4% from your monthly sallary and 20% for 60€ game. Steam discounts under 60% for games only some days in year look funny, because you can buy new box copy for that game whole year for lower price. I don't understand why digital copy and box copy should cost same. If you buy ebook you will pay maybe 30% less than for classic book, so according to this selling digital copies of game for more than box copies looks like fraud. I have bought from resellers just games from Humble bundle, because pay 11€ for mostly one game that I want to play is not very good deal...
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I kind of understand their logic, wouldn't like my game to be sold by an unauthorized "store" either, leaving me with no choice in price, discount, respect and support toward customer... That's why my game is not available on g2a. I simply keep check on all the keys circulating around, meaning there's very little to no keys at all. That's why you can't get my game in GMG, Humble, Fanatical and similar stores either, I'm basically paranoid about it. Now, it's easy for me to say that because my game is tiny and flies under the radar of the scammers and shady re-sellers and stuff, more popular titles are more targeted and that makes them harder to defend from such troubles.
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Well. I buy from where I can get working keys, mainly from official sources. But if it is G2A who gives me an uncensored version of a game not available her officially, so why not?
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I haven't bought a new-release game in years. I don't pirate anymore and I don't buy from G2A type places. I do trade with other players when I have leftovers from bundles, but mostly I just wait for a game to be bundled Senua's Sacrifice, or to get a big enough sale to buy it on steam. There are a few games whose latest discount on steam is just beyond my reach, but will probably be in my price range by the winter sale. So I wait.
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developers/publishers just want their cake and eat it all playing victims. mostly "developer" in those cases cause they think the victim card will play better than saying "publisher"
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I mostly use grey market to buy humble monthly games, I don't feel guilty I couldn't afford to pay these games full price anyway.
Developpers can decide to sell their games only in Steam store if they dislike what people are doing with their keys.
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https://www.pcgamer.com/developers-tell-people-to-pirate-their-games-instead-of-using-g2a/?utm_content=bufferd863f&utm_medium=social&utm_source=twitter&utm_campaign=buffer-pcgamertw
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