Raging?
I have a strong feeling that Valve and Bethesda are tackling what is a giant beehive.
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So far there's no info about Bethesda being involved, picture shows Garry Mod mods But then, there's a reason why GECK is still not released...
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my bad, was referring to the drama of last time with Skyrim paid mods. But then again they also hinted at the possibility of paid mods returning so they arent completely out of the picture either so to say.
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If they're ever going to make this work, it can only start with a newly released game that has no mods whatsoever. What baffles me is that they recognize the reason it failed with Skyrim is because it already has a modding community, yet here they are doing the exact same thing over again.
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The last time they tried that their and other forums looked like a civil war zone.
And in the end they made a U-turn.
The end result was a more divided and fragmented modding community.
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Didn't bother me before, and doesn't bother me now. If a modder spends hundreds of hours making an awesome mod and wants to get compensated a little bit for it, what's the big deal? If it's worth paying for I'd buy it, if not I'll pass, same with any other game.
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Steam is one who will get most of cash not mod's creator.
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Actually, most of the cost for those cheaper mods would end up covering payment fees and that sort of stuff. So valve would not get much from those, once you take that into account.
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I'm sure valve would find a way to profit even from a nuclear apocalypse so yeah...They are the ones who will be collecting majority of buck here.
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If you look at how it worked last time around, valve did not get most of the bucks. It looked like they did, because the mod creator got such a small cut, but if you factor in payment fees, they did not. The mod creator got more.
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Last time around it lasted for like a split second because everyone said ' f&ck you ' to valve.Even some of the major mod creators said they dont want nothing to do with it. I'm 100% sure valve doesnt give a flying turd about well being of mod creators. Unless of course they are working directly to Valve and creating them revenues.
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My guess is that last time around they decided to terminate it because it turned into a legal nightmare, more so than because of the backlash. Modders using content from other mods and assets from other games. While it's illegal to use assets owned by someone else for your own project (unless they give you permission to do so), most people/companies will look the other way, as long as it's not done for profit, or you're doing something that could seriously harm their brand. But here it was done for profit, and it was just a matter of time before lawsuits would start happening over mods sold on steam.
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Of course, if you don't use copyrighted assets, you're legally fine. But with the exception of some texture mods, that's a pretty rare circumstance for a mod.
Besides, look at all the amazing things modders have accomplished without the incentive of money being involved. You throw in money, and all sorts of bad things can happen.
Basically, Valve is taking one of the few shining examples of non-capitalistically-driven, openly offered human creativity, and shitting all over it. :X
Allowing modders to get a donation would likely be acceptable- but then, Valve couldn't get a cut off that.
So yeah, the whole thing stinks.
It's one of the few times I'm glad for the rigidity of copyright laws, hindering Valve. Then again, I can see too many companies being eager at the chance to monetize their modding scene.
Ugh.
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Well, they do allow selling cards for 3 cents, which means 1 cent for them...
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The cut that Valve takes for each market transaction could be viewed as a transaction fee going to Valve. Valve has to pay a similar fee (with a higher lowest payment) each time you buy something, that's payed to your bank or paypal.
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I know. And you're saying "Valve will earn nothing because mods are cheap, so fees will eat everything".
And I point out that Valve has no problem with those fees, as they allow selling cards for 3 cents - which means from every 3 cent card sold, they have to send 1 cent to game-dev. Fees would kill whole market if that would happen.
Which is probably why Valve make simple system: we don't pay you until you earn enough to cover all fees.
When mods started for first time, they would not send a single cent until mod author would earn at least $100. Which means both Bethesda and Valve would also earn over $100 each.
Which means fees are not an issue.
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That's not how transaction fees work. Every single time a person buys a mod, a transaction fee would have to be payed, you don't clump them together like that. So if each transaction as a 0,5€ transaction fee, and each mod costs 1€, when you've sold 100€ worth of mods, 50€ would have been used to cover the transaction fees. The fees are covered at the very moment you buy something.
There can be several reasons for why they decide to wait until a certain amount of money is earned before they send it to the mod maker. Some banks will have a transfer fee, so when Valve send the money to you, the bank will take a cut (one developer actually ended up having to pay more in transfer fees than he got from Valve, and it was due to this that Snow Light had a price tag of 100€ for a while, as the developer did not want you to buy the game, but that seems to have been fixed now, as the game is back to 10€). And then it's just easier to handle things this way, you won't constantly have to send small amounts of money to everyone. It also means that Valve can "hold" the money for a while, in case something goes wrong (like you're not the author of the mod).
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Because the transaction fees I'm talking about are the ones that happen when you pay for something using your credit card or paypal (or any other payment service). As long as the money stays with Valve (as it does with steam wallets), they don't need to pay anyone else for doing the transactions. A transaction fee happens when you put money into your steam wallet (and my guess is that this is the reason for them not allowing you to put less than 5€ into it at a time), but then any purchases that's done with your steam wallet are "free" for Valve.
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Hmm, if I remember right, you could only use Steam Wallet to buy mods, just like market.
So whole fees talk becomes pointlessy then, if I remember it right that is :P
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If my memory serves, you did not actually have to use your steam wallet, but could pay directly for these. Using steam wallet would be a way of mitigating the issues (but that would hurt impulse purchases).
Looking around online for further information on the issue, I could find no mention of you having to use your steam wallet, but I could find people discussing the topic of transaction fees and mod prices.
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Yeah, checked it around, you might be right.
No more trusting friends (yeah, I have one friend who actually bought mod, he has weird fetish about having at least one item from all inventories).
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Also, a further thing to note: All the mods had the option for a complete refund. This is basically something that Valve has to implement, because of mod compatibility (both with other mods & with new versions of the game invalidating old mods). That's also something that their cut would have to cover (because Valve still has to pay the transaction fee for your initial purchase, even if they give the money back to you).
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1) Refunds were only for 24 hours - so if new game version came after 25 hours, Valve said "screw you"
2) According to post I found, they refunded mods to Steam Wallet, no matter the option used.
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Yeah, but if you instantly started the game and something bad happened, well, you would be likely to seek out a refund.
And depending on how you use the money you got back from the refund Valve may or may not end up paying extra for it. If you get your money back and buy something of lower value, then it's not a problem, but if you get your money back, and then use it to partially pay for something more expensive (like a full game), then Valve has effectively had to pay the fixed part of the transaction fee twice
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Ah, yeah I just read that the mod author only gets 25%. That's pretty lame, but I guess it's better than nothing. The only mod I would pay for anyways is a huge total conversion or expansion, not some lame costumes or weapon skins.
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Yep thats the thing here. Really impressive and massive mods are very rare. I agree that mod which completely reworks a game and gives you new experience and tens of hours of extra game time is worth cash, but weapon or player models? No thanks.
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Ah, yeah I just read that the mod author only gets 25%.
As I said above, this is not surprising as each transaction has a fee associated with it. So if you buy a 0,8€ mod, and the mod creator gets 0,2€, that leaves 0,6€ of which ~0,5€ will be used to cover transaction fees. If the mod creator would have got more than 25%, then Valve would start losing money on each transaction. And many of the mods were in the 0,5-1€ region, if my memory serves (0,5€ transaction fee is not one that's set in stone, it varies depending on the size of the transaction and transaction method). Heck, if Bethesda gets a cut as well, which I guess they do, then that's no money left for Valve for the really cheap mods. They're just getting enough to cover the transaction fees.
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And who gets that transaction fee? It's legit question,not sarcastic one. Then you are selling items on steam's market you pay fee which is collected by valve. Isint this the same>?
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And who gets that transaction fee? It's legit question,not sarcastic one. Then you are selling items on steam's market you pay fee which is collected by valve. Isint this the same>?
No, it's not the same. If you're paying directly each time, then the transaction fee will go to your bank, or Paypal or whatever other transaction method you're using. This is part of the reason why Valve has added a minimum price for games, previously they actually lost money each time someone bought one of those 90% off 1€ games.
Transaction fees is one of those hidden costs of shopping that you, as an end user, won't see. But every time you use your credit card, the store you buy something from pays your bank a small sum. This is why some stores won't let you buy things for under a certain sum with your credit card, because they'll actually lose money when you do so.
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Transaction fees of 60%, seriously?
A transaction fee usually works like this:
set cost + %of the cost of the item.
If the transaction fee is 0,5€+3% of the cost of the item, and the item costs 0,5€ then the transaction fee will be 0,515€ or 103%.
If the cost of the item is 50€ then the transaction fee will be 4%
Do you really think you are unveiling some revelation, that fees exist?
Judging by the replies I've got, it would seem like people are not aware of them, and judging by your comment, I don't think you understand how they actually tend to work.
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After reading both your replies... what is your point or reason for commenting really?
It doesn't seem to add anything to the discussion at hand except that you do not like an extra explanation of transaction costs to be added to this thread.
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And maybe it'll come as a surprise, but they're all factored into the price.
Well yes, it is factored into the price. And it is why valve takes such a large cut for any sold mod, because they need to cover the transaction fees. It's not greed, but the simple fact that each transaction costs them money. That's what I've been trying to explain to people who think that Valve is just greedy when they take their cut, and why transaction fees became a topic in the first place. If you read the discussion you'll see that. So does it matter if most people know what transaction fees are, when I'm explaining it to the ones who don't know what it is?
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Transaction fees on the community market was never the topic, transaction fees for buying things with your credit card or through paypal was, so now you're the one misleading people. Please note that transaction fees varies by country.
Also, the transaction fees I used in my example are the ones based on local conditions, rounded to a single significant figure, so don't claim that they are unrealistic.
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Well, you stated the fees on the community market in your last post, not the transaction fees for using your credit card or paypal (you did state the transaction fees for using Paypal in the US earlier, so I take it that you were at least aware of this being the topic). So you're using transaction fees from an internal market, like steam, to tell me that my numbers based on transaction fees using a credit card are misleading. That makes your information misleading, as you were using numbers from something completely unrelated.
You're quite clearly mixing things up here. Mods could, based on the sources I could find, be bought directly with your credit card, and you did not have to use your steam wallet to pay for those. And this was the topic, paying with your credit card incurs transaction fees. The system for buying mods was different from how steam community market works, so your example of what happens when you buy something on the community market is completely irrelevant to the topic, and also misleading.
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Yes, and I edited mine. You're talking about something completely different. The topic was never the steam community market, giving examples based on that makes your example misleading.
Let me just break it down to you in a simple example:
If I were to buy a mod on steam, using my credit card it would cost valve the following amount in transaction fees:
0,47€+2,5% of the price of the mod
That means that for transaction fees to be completely covered, if Valve takes all the money, the mod would have to cost 0,49€.
If you buy things on the community market, Valve will just have to cover the cost of you adding the money to your steam wallet. That means that they'll have to get 0,595€ back through their "internal" transaction fees. But again, this was never the topic, so it's a moot point.
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I'm still talking about transaction fees that valve has to cover when you buy something with your credit card. The modder got a flat 25% of the price of the mod sold. They did not have to worry about transaction fees, that was covered by the cut that Valve got when you bought a mod. This means that for cheaper mods to be viable, Valve would have to take a large portion of the cut, otherwise they would lose money from each transaction due to transaction fees.
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What do you mean with "transaction fees" ?
If you mean "taxes", I doubt that's the case, taxes are not that high and I guess that devs should pay taxes on their own.
If I sell x100 mods and I gain 0.2€ each mod I'll gain 20€ and I'll have to pay a % on that amount (based on my country laws)
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Transaction fees and taxes are two very different things. A transaction fee is something that the store will pay for each transaction that's being made. When you buy something with your credit/debit card your bank gets some money from the store for the transaction. If you buy something from paypal, then paypal gets some money for the transaction. So if you buy a 0,2€ stick of gum from your local store, and pay with your credit card, the store will actually lose money from the transaction, as they'll have to pay your bank ~0,5€ for the transaction.
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Oh I see, but steamwallet it's not a credit card.
If you buy a random item on the market the seller takes the 87% and valve takes the 13% (and that 13% goes to valve, because they are not running the market because it's cool)
For example if I buy a csgo skin for 100€ = 87€ for the seller, 13€ for valve. There is no one else to pay.
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As long as all payment is through steam wallet, this is true. But if my memory serves, last time around it did not have to go through steam wallet, you could buy mods directly, and due to this, Valve had to take a large cut.
For example if I buy a csgo skin for 100€ = 87€ for the seller, 13€ for valve. There is no one else to pay.
When the money was added to your steam wallet, your bank/paypal did take a cut. For such a large transaction, it would have been about 3%. For smaller transactions, your bank/paypal takes a larger percentage.
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Like i said back then, it was terribly implemented with steam And Bethesda only thinking about their personal gain, not only did they lost the community trust, they even managed to turn modders against each other
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pretty much like this
people are fooling themselves if they think they cared one bit about modders best interest, they were merely throwing them a bone with the ridiculous profit shares.
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except that modders already had the option to get paid through donations on Nexus, to which the usual reply I get is that : hardly anyone donates.
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The main problem is support. When you pay for something, there should be support. Due to
the unofficial nature of mods, there won't be much support in most cases, even if the modders
do their best and are really helping best they can, they simply can't test all side effects with
other mods.
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What if you don't use Steam? Imagine you bought Witcher 3 on gog and you are using some mods. Now the modders move to Steam and stop updating and uploading them in Nexus. You bought the same game, but only the ones bought in Steam have mods. That is unfair competition
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It's competition, but I don't see it as being unfair. You still have (had) the choice to buy it on either Steam or GOG, and each platform has its advantages and disadvantages.
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Nowadays mods exist for all versions of a game. If paid mods are set, Steam would kill mods in the rest of platforms
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I think there are plenty of modders who oppose paid mods, and will continue to release theirs for free. Other platforms for paid mods will appear that support other platforms. I don't think Steam introducing paid mods will kill off modding on other platforms, just as Steam doesn't control all the digital distribution of games.
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If it happens as the last time, most famous modders will stop udating their mods in other platforms to dedicate all their efforts to Steam Workshop. It is normal, they spend a lot of their free time making mods, and it is fair that they can get money for it. But then you are forcing people to use Steam Workshop. Modders would stop udating their mods in Nexus and other mod sites because their free time is just enough for making/updating their workshop mods. In the Skyrim scenery that means saying goodbye to SkyUE, Climates of Tamriel, Frostfall... But what will happen with the next TES? Will be unofficial patches exclusive for Steam's Workshop users? I hope not. Of course it depends on the modders, but they have limited time and "getting paid" vs "not getting paid" has a clear winner. If other platforms for paid mods appear in the future, it will be even worse, because then you will have different mods in different platforms, I doubt a modder would make its mod for all the platformers because it implies lots of time, and of course nobody is going to live from making mods when they just receive 15% of the money
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Thing is, people started stealing mods. Some people uploaded mods that were only on the nexus site, claiming that they were theirs (which they weren't). That way the actual modders not only don't get anything, but other people profit from their work.
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If they screw this up again...
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there should be a set of pay sliders like with humble bundle:
Fallout 3 GOTY:
Bethesda $2
remove GFWL mod dev $18
unofficial patch devs $30
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Payment's mods exist long time ago.) They called "DLC's", :D
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Which used to be free until some people started buying silly hats n shit and gave way to people being ripped off with content being released which should have either been a free update or in the game to have started with.
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Well, some good games deserve to be payment after long time they was presented.) Like Euro Truck Simulator 2 - that is a good game which still have mountly updates, payable dlc - it's a good way to support developer.)
But another thing American Truck Simulator - same developer, but pay for each state - it's to much I think.)
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I'm still not fond of this. Not unless Valve does some serious quality control this time around. Last time some of their featured mods had content from other mods or packs, things that the modders were allowed to use as long as they did not make a profit on it, but as soon as money is involved, things change. Considering how much many of the different mods rely on content from other people, this is going to end up being a major headache for everyone involved. Again. And from the modding community, the main thing I've heard people complain about was not the fact that someone got a bit of extra money for their work, but rather how it will change how content from other mods & content packs can be used in the future, thus making the modding scene a lot more splintered.
I doubt anyone would really object if Valve added a tipping system instead. If you like a mod, you can give the mod creator a small tip, though this would still require Valve to oversee things, as there would be people uploading mods that they don't own just so that they can get money from tips.
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I doubt anyone would really object if Valve added a tipping system instead. If you like a mod, you can give the mod creator a small tip, though this would still require Valve to oversee things, as there would be people uploading mods that they don't own just so that they can get money from tips.
sadly, as I wrote in a previous comment:
"except that modders already had the option to get paid through donations on Nexus, to which the usual reply I get is that : hardly anyone donates."
i had that kind of discussion about a possible donation system back in the days when the outrage was still going on and each time it ended at the same point.
some simply dont understand that mandatory paywall wont magically get people to pay money for those.
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"except that modders already had the option to get paid through donations on Nexus, to which the usual reply I get is that : hardly anyone donates."
There's a matter of convenience to consider here as well. If you through a single button press can donate say 0,5€ to the mod creator on steam, then it's likely to at least get some use. If you have to go through paypal or any other multi-step procedure, you'll lose out on a lot of spontaneous tippers, as it's too much effort . I'm not saying that people will make a fortune from tips, but making it convenient would at least give them a bit more cash
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good point
its just that in my personal opinion modders need to understand that they wont make a fortune from their hobby, unless their creation is some insanely huge/amazing thing that can get people to pay good money for (and in all honesty i doubt theres much of those, and i dont count in slight texture changes or adding in a few items)
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If the mod is really big like that, the mod can get picked up for a paid release, or the mod team can get hired by the developer.
Plenty of examples of that lying around.
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Hopefully most modders understand that they'll be lucky if they get enough in donations to buy a can of soda, and modding is never a good investment of your time, form a pure monetary point of view.
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But if it's good enough, why shouldn't they make some money off of it? Many commercial game releases are built on someone else's engine, which is basically a "mod". Depending on the scale, a total conversion can be practically a whole new game.
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I'm not saying that there's anything wrong with them getting some money for it, just that, well, you won't. Not on the mod itself at least, but your mod might be an entryway into the world of commercial game design.
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Yes, this, absolutely. The Steam workshop has succeeded because of simplicity and safety. Most average gamers won't even search out and load mods off of sites like Nexus because they feel it's too complicated and/or are afraid of viruses. I have a friend who hosts a 7 Days to Die server and he refuses to load any mods until it gets workshop support for those exact reasons. The same goes for donating - if someone has to go through a separate, manual process to donate money, by clicking on a link they may not trust, then they're less likely to do it. But if they can donate right through Steam, using their wallet or pre-approved payment method, then you'll see a whole lot more of it.
But like has been said too many times to count, putting amateur mods behind a paywall is the worst possible idea, a despicable cash-grab by Valve, and will end up ruining the game community.
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Don't worry, it will stop as soon as the first lawsuit from a publisher comes round. Most mods use textures and sound files from other games which is fine as long as it is non-profit. Start making money then a whole can of worms is unleashed and considering Valve is acting as the publisher in this case they are the ones liable to be taken to court.
Nevermind the fact that last time the paid mods came what was found that people took content other people had made and started charging for it with Valve not caring at all.
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Valve was forced to remove several mods from their service, including the mod that was basically the poster child for it, the fishing mod, due to them containing content from other mods.
Most mods use textures and sound files from other games which is fine as long as it is non-profit
It's not really fine, from a legal point of view, it's just that most companies will look the other way unless they are doing something that's really bad.
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I'm OK with it because I'd rather have paid mods than no mods like EA on consoles.
I'm also OK with paying people for work that benefits me but of course mod writers will have to give a cut to Steam and the original publisher so they'll be lucky to get 1/3 of the selling price.
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I'm raging but, like somebody said before, is our fault. When people said this is ok... Those people have no idea about PC gaming or shit. What a shame. I guess mods on consoles will be the final stab from valve and friends. Time to GOG or piracy, i guess
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keyword here I believe is having a controlled environment for those, if we are reaching to a point that we will need to live with it
not too happy about it either but people will adapt to it, hopefully modders will also realise that removing their free mods and putting it behind a paywall is a very stupid and contraproductive idea, as it was proven previously with people literally making compilations of said mods and making it avalaible free of charge for anyone to use.
at the end of the day if there is still as much resistance against them, chances are that they will have no choice but to drop the idea, assuming that we could gather the community as a whole to boycott those once again.
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piracy
Just because of paid mods? Piracy is never the solution, but for this, it's just stupid...
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The way I see it, its not a solution, its just a way to "attack" the paid mods. Reddit did it and, somehow, helped. It was temporary, it was just a way to speak, to say "no", not a solution, of course.
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Tha shitty day would eventually come back... Well then, pirating mods will be fun :P The Modding Bay for the win!
Also, remember that 5 Euro sword mod for Skyrim which You had to add by console? My guess is also this will Increase amount of shot at mods, if it wasn't high already..
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raging?
no
pirating them?
yes
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tbh this is already in Dota and it is working fine.
http://blog.dota2.com/2016/03/supporting-custom-game-developers/
http://www.dota2.com/customgamepassfaq
So as long it works similar to how works in Dota then I'm fine with it
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Might aswell rename Steam Workshop to Steam Microtransaction Shop while they are at it. .
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origin could take this as a chance :P
lol, who am i kidding...
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Come On really ? They didn't learn the lesson last time ?
Paid Mod aka"How to piss off a community Simulator"
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Still testing waters And considering how the community is só infatuated by this lord Gaben meme i don't see why they should stop.If anything goes wrong a simple Gabe appearence will resolve the issue
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In some ways I'm happy, in some ways I'm not. They clearly handled it wrong last time and there's a great idea behind there, I'd love to see bigger, better mods and if they are actually that, I'd want to pay the modder for their hard time.
But the drama, oh dear god the drama, I could understand people who were against it because of the shitty mods they chose and the pay rate for modders... but the guys that decided mods shouldn't cost any money because they've always been free... I already feel like hanging myself.
I remember the same discussion when indie games became a thing and almost everyone was like "but flash/browser games have always been free, they should be free forever!"
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IMO it will not bring bigger mods.
To make bigger mod, you need team. And if you have a team, why bother with mod that you'd be barely able to sell for $5 when you can make whole game - especially this days, when you have Unreal Engine 4 for free.
Example: Xcom Long War mod team dropped modding and announced making their own game.
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You don't "need" a team, I've seen plenty of big mods made by single people. Sure, it's probably less common, but don't act like it's impossible. Besides, who's to say the Long War team wouldn't have made more mod expansions if they were paid for it?
It seems kind of obvious that they're making a game to sell their talents, if they could sell their mods, they might not have moved onto making their own game. Not to mention not many people even show their appreciation for mods, nevermind tip for them.
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So for someone who wasn't around during the last ruckus. Were all the mods forced to be paid for or is it the creator that decides if it has a price tag?
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Authors could decide. Authors get like 25%, 75% were taken by Valve and Bethesda (as it was Skyrim mods).
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I am certainly in favor of paid compensation to mod creators. However, this absolutely needs to be handled well, as this is the precedent for everything down the line.
As has been stated before, there needs to be adequate policing of both copywritten material and outright theft of other modders' work. I also really hate the idea of Valve and the publisher being able to determine their own cut of proceedings. As is, the system is still ripe for abuse and we have heard extremely little on how Valve will attempt to address these issues.
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Yes, I'm not against paid mods as a general principle, but tackling on an existing game wasn't a good idea and the split was too unfavorable.
If Valve and Bethesda want to give it another try, at least I hope they've learned from their mistakes.
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SpeedRunners already have paid 'mods' (trails).
http://store.steampowered.com/itemstore/207140/browse/?filter=all
You can submit your own via workshop and sell if it gets approved.
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Yeah, just like KF2 skins or TF2 hats.
But I guess there's thin line between those curated mods that turn them a bit into 3rd-party-DLCs and Skyrim Mods, where you had to pay to use armor that you had to use cheat to be able to use it, with no guarantee you didn't paid to download something that will be broken with next patch...
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It didn't went well because they went to old game and added paid mods to it. If they had tried it with Fallout 4, it would've went better, because there wasn't baseline of free mods.
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:D
Fallout 4 optimalisation mod! - $5
Fallout 4 community patch, fix several bugs - $6
Fallout 2K textures & better light - $4
Pay $60 for the game and $15 for quick fixes made by fans to have nice looking and smooth gamethrough! xD
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My modded Skyrim playthrough had over 50+ mods installed, so lets say I would pay 1$ for each mod that would be over 50$ just for mods. And I think the guy who made the infinite wood chop animation instead of just 3 chops or some random armor color change doesn't deserve to get paid for it, just like 95% of the other mods out there.
On another note, if Valve makes the mod quality control as good as Steam Greenlight... I don't even want to imagine it.
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Mods are usually made by a 3rd party (not the game's creator), so content is generally of a lower quality. Also, you can get banned for using some mods on Steam, can't you?
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But I think that's only on games with VAC servers or something
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So you cannot use any form of mods on VAC-server games?
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I'm thinking about mods with which You can gain slight advantage over other players. I'm not multiplayer guy, I don't know how this exactly work , maybe other mods are prohibited as well :S
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NeoGaf
Some Article
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