Hating Fish and loving Fez don't have to be mutually exclusive. I think Fish an absolutely olympian prick. I got Fez from Humble so I know my money didn't go towards funding his bullshit. I didn't play a whole lot of it but it was enjoyable enough. I also know a lot of console gamers who loved the game but didn't know any ofthe background stuff till Fish kicked off again with the sequel on twitter.
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I've never played FEZ, but I've heard it's a pretty good game.
I don't like Fish at all, though.
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& the Phil Fish saga continues. Does it never end?
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Peeps hate Fish for a reason, I'm not a fan of him either, but gotta say this: I don't agree with how he says things, but sometimes I just can't help but see his point. While other (every other?) studios/devs/publishers either react nicely or don't react at all to gamers who literally demand things from them, this guy's not afraid to tell them where can they go with it.
Yeah, it sucks not to have FEZ 2, and Fish is a total d*ck, but seeing these entitled peeps given their way is actually somewhat satisfactory.
Am I a bad person for this?
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Once you make a game, you're in sales. (Unless you have a publisher to do all the work for you, but then you are just told to shut up.) When you're in sales, there are certain rules when dealing with the public. Why? Because now your entire purpose is to ask them to give you money.
Most people don't like all the butt-kissing that comes with sales, so it doesn't make you a bad person to feel the same. But unlike you, Fish is in sales, so his personal reputation is important, and thus doing what he has done is a really stupid move. Now, a couple of meltdowns can actually burnish an artist's rep, but too much and you get flushed.
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His reputation is only important when he wants to stay in sales. If you don't feel like bending over and get f**ed up, you just don't and live with the consequences and that's what he did.
I don't think it was terribly clever the way he acted, and he definitely wouldn't go on my friendslist but as torik posted, I too can see his point.
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I don't really get the hardcore Phil Fish haters.
These are people who hate Phil Fish for having a different opinion but want always want their different opinion to be heard, they want Phil Fish to stop getting attention yet whenever he did something always gave him the attention that they didn't want to give him and blamed him.
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Maybe most of these haters are those who are too entitled to their opinion. Always used to get everything they asked for on a silver plate (butt-kissing as Chambers said) both from the gaming industry and probably other places too, then Fish comes and reminds them the hard way that the world doesn't revolve around them (not all of them obviously, but..some).
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I think Fish is making these up himself because he's a PR master as we could all see. People are still talking about that one game that he made a few years ago, and they'll talk about HIM for decades to come.
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Not gonna happen; notice that GG only targets indies and women, who tend to be more progressive, versus the AAA developers who literally control people by controlling who gets review copies?
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I'm the Founder of TR, and wanted to hop in and hopefully clear things up. If I don't, I can understand peoples' frustration with all this, and not having all the facts - I just try and be transparent with people.
We've actually contacted, or at least tried to contact, all of the people within the interview. The thing is, none of them have replied save one, and we're working on an interview with that person.
We spent a lot of time going through the allegations, and never treated them as anything but allegations, because we're trying to verify them as best as we can. We're following up, and anything that we find will be published and shared with our readers - whether his allegations are true or false.
We want to get to the truth as much as anyone, but we didn't just publish the interview without looking into it a bit first.
At the same time, why wouldn't those people lie to Jason in order to protect their names? McGrath, by his own words in the Kotaku article, essentially confirmed what Allistair was saying, too.
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McGrath didn't essentially confirm what Pinsoff was saying. The large allegations were that Fish and McGrath had come to an agreement that Fez would not be released, that "significant" amounts of code were stolen, and that McGrath did nothing about it because he was afraid of being ostracized by the IGF. McGrath refutes every one of these points. It does look like Fish jacked his idea and ran with it, but the crux of Pinsoff's claims ring false.
Regarding your question about why these people wouldn't lie, I'd ask, given his background, what makes Pinsoff inherently more credible?
This seems like more smoke and mirrors for GamerGate to latch on to, by another person trying to use the angry mob to get their name out there.
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I honestly wish that there was more information or documentation to what happened so we wouldn't have to rely on hearsay and such to get any details. We did the interview with Pinsoff with the knowledge that it was allegations, and the majority of the interview was some really interesting content overall, outside of the allegations themselves.
I would agree with you in regards to Pinsoff - there's no guarantee that he's credible or not lying. Unfortunately, that can be said for almost anyone you interview about anything, too. We published the interviews as such, interviews and not investigative pieces (which we're trying to work on digging for more details to back up/debunk any claims made, but it's slow work) or editorials.
GamerGate supporters definitely latched onto it hard, much more than we had expected to happen, for sure. Now, we just want to find the truth, and we're doing our best to get in contact with those named in the interview, but they have yet to respond (other than one that I cannot reveal until we determine if anything is going to come from the questions being asked of them).
I know a lot of people see us as a blog, and that's definitely how we started (me, solo) - but we're trying to learn every day. If doing the interview was a mistake (which I don't feel it was, because there was some really interesting stuff within it), we'll quickly learn from it and adapt to be better.
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The allegation: 'Phil Fish allegedly stole Fez's code from developers who were uncredited.'
The pertinent quotes from Kotaku's article:
- 'So it was really early when he was working on it; it's not like he stole a complete game or something. Like I think people are overreacting.... I'm not cool with what happened, but let's be realistic about it.'
- 'To say that he flat out took the credit I would disagree with. But to say that perhaps he was less forthcoming than he could have been maybe would have been a truthful statement, but I don't think it's true to say he stole the idea and then claimed it to be his own. I would agree that he stole the idea.'
Yes, McGrath has come to terms with the idea that he'd wasted a year of his life working on an implementation of his idea that would eventually become Fez (not my words, this is also in the article). Yes, the code required a serious amount of work afterwards. But the allegation still stands.
Thing is, though, I also agree with McGrath in that investigating this now, after all these years, will likely prove fruitless: 'There's nothing that can happen, there's no situation that exists where everybody who gives a shit actually knows what the truth is. That can't happen, the way that the internet works makes that an impossibility.' It does set a precedent, though - which is useful in case other indies should decide to come out with similar stories. It may be an industry-wide problem, propagated by connections in certain circles, or it might not be. But it's worth discussing.
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I think the no-calling-out rule on SteamGifts is here to prevent "witch hunts," right? I can't help but see this as witch hunting. But hey, it's probably fine for you since he's already popular and he's already got a bad reputation..?
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Talking about a public figure hardly counts as a witch hunt.
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also not just a public figure but the talk here is about articles on gaming news sites.
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Oh yeah, of course... Gotta protect those who perfectly slip between the rules.
That's why they should either only have one rule [about the witch hunting] or not have one at all.
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The calling out rule refers to Steam and SteamGifts users. Someone in a news article, or often any game devs that have done something worthy of such a topic is fine to be the subject of a topic. So no, this topic is following all the rules.
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I know this topic is following all the rules, unfortunately. In my opinion, it's like the following example:
Written in the law: You mustn't kill any human Y in country X.
But what I can do is bring this human Y out of the boundaries of the country X and kill it there. I would be "following the rules," right?
See, I followed the rules, but in the end, I did something wrong...
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So, I point out that I am following rules (as the rule is in regards to Steam and SteamGifts profiles, not news articles and information about developers and publishers), and you compare it to murder for me doing something wrong. Wow, what got stuck up your butt?
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Compare it to whatever you want, that's all the same. Murder or not, it's not perfectly right.
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The difference is, I'm not committing murder. I'm not even breaking the rules. If you believed anything that had anything to do with a person was breaking rules here, the only topics would be about sales. And price errors would likely be suspendable because someone made a mistake, and people would talk about that and how they will be fired.
Learn the rules before telling people to follow them. It makes you look foolish.
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Learn the rules before telling people to follow them.
Then I'll just quote myself from a few posts above: "I know this topic is following all the rules, unfortunately."
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And yet you are also claiming it is doing wrong and comparing it to murder.
in doing the sorts of acts that would have news articles, the guy has opened himself to being talked about. That includes this site.
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Why in this society can't we compare something to murder? It's just a case like any other. It's like people are afraid to say it or even think about it...
And when I say "wrong," I don't mean that it's breaking any rules because both of us clearly know it doesn't. I just mean that it's not totally right to say "Hey, look at this guy, he's done something wrong, we should do something about that."
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In terms of badness, murder is multiple levels of magnitude worse than 'any other case'. It's called false equivalency when you try to equate two things that aren't the same to make a point.
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Different opinions, I'd say.
This was meant to Dhoomdealer just above but I somehow messed up.
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As stated by Dhoom, murder is something big. I could steal bread, that is bad, but not to the same degree. I could pay a dollar, get banned from the store, problem fixed. Murder goes far beyond that.
Secondly, I didn't make this topic to muckrake as you seem to believe. I made it because this forum didn't have anything about this topic. I even stated in the opening post that I hadn't yet read the links myself, and used 'Allegedly' in the title.
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You do realize rules and laws are open to interpretation right? With the most open interpretation of the old no calling out rule, you can't even post or make giveaways without being suspended. Because, you know, you're calling attention to yourself by doing that.
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And then there's the recent case of a SG user who started a thread about the alleged death of the author of a giveaway he'd won.
The guy ended on multiple blacklists once someone took a look at his profile and saw several attempts to cheat the CV system. Last I checked, nobody even mentioned the no calling out rule even though people are generally quick to invoke it.
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I missed that. Whee for blacklist time. :D
With that topic, I don't believe he mentioned names or posted links. So he was following that rule.
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Yep, it was just an "I took a look at your profile and ho boy, are you in trouble now". ^.^
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I don't see a link to Fish's SG profile anywhere... Where is the calling out?
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Ahh, I see... It's not written anywhere in the rules that you must not call out a non-SteamGifts user. Does that make it right though? No.
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Call out non-SteamGifts users on what? What SteamGifts rules is he breaking?
"Right" is subjective, there has been previous threads about news in the gaming industry where the developer(s) did scummy things. The news doesn't try to brainwash you with that's "right" and what is "wrong" people can come up with their own opinion.
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So if a dev releases a broken game we can't talk about it because "no calling out"?
What if some dev starts DMCA'ing people for criticizing his game? Can't talk about that because "no calling out"?
No. It's perfectly fine to talk about people who are public figures in the industry. The rule is in place to prevent people from harrassing other users on this website to keep the place civil, not to prevent anyone from talking about any human ever.
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I don't get what you're trying to say. I just expressed my opinion on the picture, nowhere in that thread did I insult the devs.
I don't care if a dev releases a broken game. I'm pretty sure there's no rule, law, what have you, saying that a game should always be released in a stable state.
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The OP didn't insult Fish either. We're trying to figure out what your problem with this particular topic is.
Posting a screenshot of a broken game is just as much of an incentive for a 'witch hunt'.
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The rule is in place to prevent people from harassing other users on this website to keep the place civil, not to prevent anyone from talking about any human ever.
The problem is these "other users" are human too.
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I'll reiterate. Would you mind explaining how you've no problem with bashing on Ubi for Assassin's Creed, but take issue with bashing on Polytron?
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I wasn't bashing on Ubisoft, I just found that picture funny, and so I said it. Also it's nowhere near as harsh as the drama you can find around Phil Fish.
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Fish is not a SteamGifts user and at this point is a public figure in gaming. Discussing gaming often involves discussing the creators of said games; oftentimes in a less than positive light.
The rule was put in place to prevent users from making threads calling out others for "fake giveaways" or as "scammers" because people have often been wrong about these things. The rule was not put in place to prevent any discussion of any human on Earth.
Do you really think Fish is reading this thread or that it will effect him in any way? No, it's harmless to him, which is why it's not against the rules.
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Well, when I worked on the radio (a lot of fun, btw), the difference between invasion of privacy and legal speech depended entirely upon whether or not the person was a public figure. Since this person is a public figure after making a game and a movie about the making of the game, it seems kinda reasonable that people put him under a certain amount of scrutiny and/or talk about him especially when a story like this comes out. (although it looks like the guy making the allegations may have...distorted...the truth based on the retractions he's making)
I'm just not sure why you're getting so bent out of shape over people discussing it.
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As I said above, support is there to interpret the rules. If you feel that the OP is calling out, go ahead and submit a support ticket.
Seriously though, people who argue so much over semantics is why we can't have nice things. What ever happened to just believing in the spirit of the rules?
BTW, just in case you didn't know, the "no calling out" rule was revised in the FAQ. It now states:
"Use the appropriate avenues for support. If you have an issue with another user, submit a ticket with a user report, rather than calling them out within the community or on the forum. "
I bet now you're going to argue that it doesn't say "SteamGifts user" instead of just user.....
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Seriously though, people who argue so much over semantics is why we can't have nice things.
:/
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That rules only applies to SteamGifts users and SteamGifts rules.
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Calling out does not count for random non-sg affiliated celebrities.
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Actually, I might seem stupid, but what did the Fish do?
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According to the internet? Exist. Which is considered a crime against humanity apparently!
There's more to it than that, mainly him being a whinny bitch that can't take what he dishes out
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he worked with two other guys who did a big part of the coding but after a controversy they went seperate ways.
They decided everyone take his work what was distributed to the project so far and cancell it.
Fish still used the code against this agreement so it seems.
The two other devs made Dyad after this and were really shocked when finding out Fish released the game they worked on with him, both were uncredited.
Thats what I read on the linked articles.
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Someone voices their opinion and I don't agree with it. Boo fucking hoo. 9 out of 10 times it's your baby dick causing you to feel this way.
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So this arrogant,eternally pissed off whiny little b*tch is a thief as well,eh?
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In case anyone's interested, here's Pinsof's response to Schreier's piece on Kotaku.
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It's almost like Kotaku merely contacted the other side and took their claims for granted just to push their own sensationalist agenda.
I still don't understand how naive and oblivious people can be to actively visit Kotaku, they have been insulting and slandering their own target audience for years in almost every way, showing amazing amount of ignorance and yet people still visit the site.
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In Kotaku's defense, tech raptor did the exact same thing. It's called Right To Reply and neither "journalist" bothered with carrying out the proper, ethical actions. That is expected of Kotaku but a site that GG wants to prop up as the good guy has appeared to be just as biased and terrible, just for different people.
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If I ever had a choice to wage between any other gaming portal and Kotaku, I would never pick the latter. They have certainly made a name for themselves and not in a good way.
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We actually did contact everyone in the article - full explanation below:
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Well, it's anecdotal evidence on both sides. My gripe with Kotaku's article is that it doesn't actually refute Pinsof's allegations, and yet it revels in its dismissive tone and sports a rather hit-piecey title 'conspiracy theory doesn't hold up'. I don't know. Call me doubting Thomas, but asking someone if they really did know that a certain bad thing was being done and did nothing - this doesn't sound like a good investigation into whether the wrongdoing really took place. No matter how convincingly they say 'No' in response.
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Eh, what's next, someone bringing back Jack Thompson back into the news? Move along >,>
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TechRaptor is a site you should automatically distrust; they toe the GG line pretty hard, and won't admit when they are wrong about things (including this). Sadly there is a lot of "doubling down" when called out on stuff from this group, not a whit of accepting flaws or being incorrect or even responsibility.
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We will gladly admit when we're wrong, and we've done so before, as seen below
Link: http://techraptor.net/content/apology-readers
Also, for reference - http://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/siiBdcx
We're always working to improve, and we have never said that we're experts at this. I started this site as an amateur in 2013, and I'm learning every day how to make us better. I want to be better, and I know my staff does too.
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So in other words, they do EXACTLY what the "anti-GG" side does.
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Watch it to the end and then comment.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PmTUW-owa2w
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I find this sucpicious, mainly because it seems to work too perfectly in terms of getting people to hate him.
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In a surprise move that surprised noone, Kotaku has taken up arms trying to discredit everything here calling all the evidence "flimsy" and claiming none of it holds up.
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That would be a surprise, but it could happen. I doubt it's true, but I'm not going to like Phil Fish regardless of whether or not he's being framed; didn't like him before, won't like him afterwards.
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http://techraptor.net/content/relationships-indie-gaming-interview-allistair-pinsof-part-2
http://blogjob.com/oneangrygamer/2015/02/gamergate-phil-fish-brandon-boyer-highlighted-in-alleged-fez-igf-corruption/
I honestly took these from a topic on GameFAQs and haven't looked at it myself yet, but half of us love to hate Fish, so here is potentially more reason to do so. As well as a good reason there is no FEZ 2.
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