What exactly does that mean to "remove the slider". I am not really up to date with the game - is it like character creation, where you select a gender or what?
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I'm honestly not sure what exactly happened, I just know everyone is in uproar right now. I'm guessing they removed the option to select male or female in character creator and every character is just neutral V.
I might be wrong, because all sort of info is circulating around. That's why I said if anyone is gonna dig deeper into this, feel free to explain/update.
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It sounds like instead of selecting 'male' or 'female', it goes more the route of 'masculine' and 'feminine' or perhaps even 'bulky' and 'slender' in relation to body / face, and then pitching in voice.
It makes sense given the games specific subgenre and its themes. So long as it's pulled off with enough polish and capacity for fine-tweaking (which people were expecting anyway) then it's really a big non-issue, and seems to fall in the category of how certain types become vocally upset if a game adds 'they' as an option.
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I think you nailed it exactly. It's a huge non-issue which only benefits players by improving the character creation and making it more versatile, and it's only an issue for those who view anything that could be seen as making games more inclusive as a personal attack.
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I'm betting mostly everyone has no problem with the actual feature, and more so turning their nose up at what they perceive as virtue signaling.
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If the 'virtue signalling' took the form of greater customisation options and zero intrusion upon anyones experience, it should really cause such people to re-examine exactly what they classify as virtue signalling and why they feel its bad enough they need to go full swarm-mode about it. It's one thing if a dev makes a token or patronising addition that feels to go against the setting, interferes with mechanics or somesuch, but this actually goes right down to the roots of the theme and subject matters. Though maybe I'm expecting too much from gaming forums where crowd mentality has already kicked in. ;P
Even then, a lot of what is considered virtue signalling is by and large just meagre allowances for inclusion. I can't really think of the last time a company made an irksome move worthy of genuine annoyance, to be honest.
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I pretty much agree with you except for the part where you conflate the added customisation with their PR.
If I had to assess the motivation behind the way they revealed/talk about the information - using progressive buzzwords like "inclusion" - and how the media picked up on it with its main focus being on the lack of gender (which, by now is apparently not strictly true anyway), with the secondary focus being on any improved customisation, it does seem like virtue-signaling-for-free with the promise of media coverage.
So I can totally buy that it was part of a larger rework of characters towards the transhuman, but I wouldn't go as far as discounting the deliberate virtue signaling PR - not that it makes a difference to me personally.
To understand how I get to that conclusion, think about how gender options and more/shared body types aren't necessarily mutually exclusive. Then think about how there was no tie-in to the lore or culture of the game in the interview; the first line being "With [Cyberpunk 2077] we really want to make a video game that’s really inclusive", and later on "Our team is very international and very diverse..."; nothing mentioned is about the in-game world. Then look at all the titles of the articles written, and most of their first paragraphs - many even opening with how CDPR have been criticised for how they've handled all the progressive stuff in the past.
In the end, it's pretty smart PR, because as you point out, it's not all that egregious, even to the people sick of seeing the culture war bleed into all areas of entertainment. But it is just enough to get those with itchy fingers fearing the proverbial slippery slope to light up forums and social media.
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I think that's a key distinction, because 'virtue signalling' is the prioritisation of ego / status over the any value the related act has, whereas "We did a thing because we felt it had (representation) merit" is less so. I haven't seen the actual reveal of the feature so admittedly I'm operating under guesswork here, but an angry mob tends to make for unreliable narration, and so far the devs haven't seemed to be flag-waving clout-chasers trying to cash in on current issues for free hype points. Depending on the usage, even repetition of the word "inclusion" can be well outside the realm of being a mere buzzword, as it summarises a bigger subject. Though I guess until I take the pause to go check the reveal myself all I have is my little "press X to doubt" routine, so I suppose its reckless of me to be too resistant to your judgement call until then. I'd go watch it now but I'm sleep procrastinating with this post, so I guess I'll get back to you later if I still have any noteworthy disagreement ;P
The positive PR is always a nice bonus, but they're not new to the gaming scene so likely understood the whole equal-and-opposite reaction such a choice would have. If the devs had a lower reputation I would have considered it move to adjust public opinion and play the whole social game (as there were a number of strangely critical articles and reports on the game that had little to no basis other than projections of "Hear me, these guys are bad!" and attempted smears based on race and 'bad take on cyberpunk'). Though given they've been generally chill in the limited stuff I've seen or read of them, I'm going to stay optimistic and hope it was more a decision for the sake of the system than burning man-hours on a social move. On the bright side, even if it turns out I'm being naive regarding their intentions, the end result is better representation across the gamut of gamers, and in a big title where the inclusion couldn't be a better fit, so fuck it, I'll take it even with the 'forced hand' aspect, haha.
I suppose there is also the aspect of "all publicity is good publicity", where even if they upset the more dudebro-leaning individuals, even the negative attention is helping spread and maintain awareness of their brand and flavour. It's hard to really gauge what is naivete and wishful thinking, and what is callous / jaded expectations where any big budget is involved. If a speaker doesn't nail their tone and approach, even a genuinely motivated project can come across as dishonest or having unduly selfish motivation.
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It sounds like they replaced the male / female toggle with a slider that takes you from ultra-masculine body to ultra-feminine with androgynous in between.
From a character creation perspective, this sounds great, and should make it easier for people to create the exact character they want to play.
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Yeah I would totally see how that would piss people off because... you know... the nerve... or something.
And yeah who wants to create characters they want to play anyway? let's all go back to having Schwarzy looking dudes and that's better, no?
My sarcasm ends here though. Seriously, it feels now that the people bitching about how society is being ruined by "all the SJW" bitching and being offended by anything... are the ones constantly bitching and being offended by everything now.
Outrage culture reached a high point.
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It is that way because people have learned the only way to see anything approaching fair treatment is outrage.
If the other side is outraged when something is said / done that could remotely be seen as appealing to your side, then very likely they get their way, whether it's removing the thing or adding a thing or punishing someone. If when they in turn make the same kind of faux pas, and your side is not sufficiently outraged to compel a reaction from the relevant corporation or government, well then suddenly the other guys get to benefit from a double standard in their favor.
Modern governments and corporations are bad parents that give bratty children treats, while taking well-behaved children for granted.
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I never thought of it that way, but yeah, these tend to be the same people often telling others not to be offended, and yet here we have a male/female toggle being replaced by a masculine/feminine slider sending them into a tizzy and cancelling their pre-orders because CDPR is somehow removing gender.
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You don’t choose, ‘I want to be a female or male character’ you now choose a body type. Because we want you to feel free to create any character you want. So you choose your body type and we have two voices, one that’s male sounding, one is female sounding. You can mix and match. You can just connect them any way you want.
That seems reasonable? Am I missing something with the backlash?
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I dunno. I tried reading through the forums, but there's so many new threads opening it's kind of impossible, and most of them end up being about unisex bathrooms and whatnot.
A friend told me they apparently replaced a male/female button with a slider for body type / voice. Which basically gives you the same polar result with something in between too. So you can still be male or female if you want, it's not removed. If I understood it right.
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Yeah, the forums right now have a new thread every 30 seconds, sheesh.
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Warlords Battlecry did the same and it was an RPG-RTS from ~ a decade ago :D
Suddenly I don't know which side is having a meltdown and why.
Forced and decreased variety about you character
or
Not having two distinct genders therefore it's SJW ohmagaawd.
tbh I would just love to have a hedonist-corrupted option in the game - just like how cyberpunk is. Everything can be sold and whatever sells, will be sold - along with people who destroy their own human bodies to pack as much firepower/communication options/pleasure-giving options as possible. In a fundamentally distopic cyberpunk setting this would perfectly fit the transhumanism - people turning themselves into living weapons, stock-accounts, cameras (imagine a cyber-pimped top reporter) or sex-dolls. Like Fisto, just with more variety and less creaking.
With the game's trailer having a woman (?) applying mascara while technially missing their whole lower face that is exchangeable, there could be so many logical but creepy/inhuman options that - IMO - would be so interesting to explore.
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Yeah, I'm with you. "A rose by any other name..." etc.
From the dev side of things, it may have been a hassle finding all the pronouns in the script to ensure they could have "he", "she" and "they" dynamically depending on the player's choice, so CDPR may have re-written everything to avoid specific pronouns. That could read oddly... or not. It's also possible the script was already written that way in the first place.
But as for things to be upset about? -- I'm fine with this tiny interface change. As a straight male, it's not hurting me at all to not be able to specifically choose "Male" or "Female" for my character.
Also... it's 2077... wouldn't be surprised if gender is a bit more fluid in the Cyberpunk universe a la Ghost in the Shell anyway.
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or just make everything first or second person. No third-person, no problem
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Mostly, sure, but I think some dialog with it makes for better storytelling.
"Hey boss, you want me to take him/her/it (player protagonist) out?"
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"Hey Boss, want me to take 'em out?"
I'm sure it's an extra challenge for the writers - especially when translating to other languages.
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It only depends if you are allowed to select the pronoun as well. If the text always describe the hero as a male, then they indeed deleted the gender option.
I should add that gender option costs a lot regarding translation, in French it's not just a pronoun translate for example, it also changes the verbs, the adjectives, etc.
That's what they need to clarify.
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Considering it is set in a future where people modify their bodies in ridiculous ways it doesn't sound too far fetched that someone could have a masculine body with a dainty female voice or vice versa. Doesn't the trailer have a woman with shiny chrome skin and people with gun arms?
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I agree. Even in current time there are transgender people who change their genitalia through surgery. I can imagine that in a transhumanism world even more odd and kinky stuffs would happen. IMHO, they really should have done this from the beginning of development, because it perfectly fits the theme. Like their explanation in E3 2018:
This is cyberpunk, so people augment their body. So the body is no longer sacrum [sacred]; it’s profanum [profane]. Because people modify everything, they are losing their connection to the body, to the meat.
Source
I really don't get why people would get angry with this. We get more choice, and it's a good thing. If one want to be male then just put the slider all the way to male side, and vice versa. It's not like CDPR are forcing everyone to be transgenders.
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I don't intend to buy the game anyway as I've never been interested in it, but I don't see the issue since they haven't removed any customization options, just added some. Or... am I missing something?
It's probably an issue people have with "woke-ness" and virtue signaling.
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I have same question. Seems they removed the simple Male/Female option to give players a much wider palette to choose from - and they complain? I am also wondering if I'm missing something fundamental here...
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They see it as CDPR "bending the knee" to the "sjws".
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I still don't get it (well I get that, but still not)...
I mean adding inclusiveness without making any changes for the groups already present is a good thing, no?!
If they'd removed the option to play as a man or a woman in favour of all in between I would understand the heat, but like this I don't.
They are literally angry over that they can't choose man/woman by a simple button, and have to use a couple of sliders instead, that's all I see here. And I don't get it.
I get that as many SJW's often don't actually want equality at all, they want whatever's right for them and everyone else can go die even though they are in extreme minority - that type of discussion/changes I can understand getting heat. But this? Here CDPR gives everyone the option to do what they want - without making any cutbacks for anyone in favour of the other, and this gets heat like nothing else?
I can understand a sense of (man)rage against SJW's and/or feminists because many times those factions lose their balanced discussions in the roar of their own extremists, and we get upset as we don't listen to actual facts and needs, we only hear extreme anfger and sometimes outright fascist solutions and we react strongly. But here?. Here we do what they do, as the extremists on the other side, the ones we love to point out are too extreme, here we do exactly the same. That sort of invalidates the entire argument against extreme SJW's doesn't it?
Here is a gaming company that tries to cater to everyone without removing ''our'' preferred modes, and we rise to the fight over it?
Nah, this is not my fight, I think they have done good here and should be bloody commended on it, and I don't understand it at all.
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They think including trans people will cause society to degenerate and cause western civilization to collapse. (no I am not kidding check the steam forums)
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I'll take your word for it, but I won't check it out - I did at first but quickly realized that it's a huge shitstorm, and I just wanna grab'em by their scrawny little necks and shake some sense into them all - but as that will just come out as angry texts/more fuel on the fire I just had to leave.
I will use you as my force shield on this! ;-) Hahahaha!
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Promote the game for a paycheck because he has a role in it and watch pathetic internet people jizz over him like he's Jesus Christ himself.
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i dont care about discussion boards. gender doesnt matter. the gameplay! its all about gameplay not the gender of my character. moreover creating alpha male with D size boobs sounds like fun:D
cyberpunk is most exciting release for me. im going to preorder the game ASAP:)
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Ah, well. I think it's just impossible to satisfy everyone. There will always be people rage quitting over something insignificant.
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Thought the point was to adapt every aspect of the game, in the most fitting way, suited to its universe and the story its trying to tell.
I think the art should rise above all.
I believe this is a good change for cyberpunk, The mistake here, is how changes were announced.
That...and the huge fanboyism that was created around CDPR. It was a matter of time before all inploded over insignificant shit.
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Thought the point was to adapt every aspect of the game, in the most fitting way, suited to its universe and the story its trying to tell.
I don't think offering user choice for character is truly related to the universe and story. In some ways, the change can even be detrimental. The story would either have to be written with the assumption that the protagonist is genderless, which I think is ridiculous and doesn't serve anyone, or the story will have to assume that a certain body type matches a certain gender, which would make the choice a joke.
It would have been better IMO to offer a gender along with a body type, because it's perfectly legitimate, for example, to have a man's body but define yourself as a woman. But that can't be defined by body type and voice alone, and if it's not defined it can't be incorporated into the story and world.
I think the art should rise above all.
I think that in this case the art sinks under.
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In this case, these players seem angry because CDPR decided to add extra options to the game. Options they don't have to use.
That tells you a lot about the people complaining, doesn't it ?
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I haven't read the complaints, so can't really comment about them, but the way I see it, they did remove an option, and an important one at that. They had an option to select gender, and it was removed. Instead they offer a choice of body type and voice. These aren't the same thing, and for people who do want to select a gender, they no longer have that option. I'd say that most if not all people have a gender identity, even if, in the case of trans, it doesn't match their gender, and that gender identity is an important part of a person's overall identity and interaction with the world. Making the character genderless removes something that would be integral to the character.
That said, it's certainly possible to establish gender identity during the game, via conversations, so a toggle isn't necessarily the only way to go about it, but there was no indication that would be the case.
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Oh, the snowflakes rioting again because some stupid thing.
I was reading about that slider today and after reading I was "meh, if I'm able to make male or female character anyway who cares what it's called or how many sliders it gets". People really don't have better issues in their lifes if that little change is so offending to them. It's really pathethic - all that shit storm, screenshots of refund, making topics for refunding people... What the fuck is wrong with people this days?
Also cyberpunk setting is just perfect for gender, unisex and other such things. I don't see better game to include these topics.
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Holy cow... giving people the opportunity to play any character that they want is now bad? Whenever I read a discussion about 'SJW' I'm asking myself if that discussion is really about SJWs or more about people being backwards. In this case it's bloody obvious...
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I've come to find the term SJW to be pretty hypocritical. Those who tend to rally the loudest against 'SJW' subjects are in themselves becoming a mirror image of what they claim to hate. More to the point, they are using unreasonably obnoxious degrees of dissent in pusuit of what they feel is a negative / destructive social phenomenon, which pretty much lands them under the umbrella of 'social-justice warrior', just that their idea of 'social justice' would never adapt that monicker. The silhouette is exactly the same.
The original popularisation of 'SJW' was in people being overly combative and not taking constructive or more peaceful options, preferring catharsis and bitter / toxic interpersonal methods, an association that happened when too many overzealous advocates went off the deep end, and the term mutated to become an insult. Now, it seems to apply equally to the 'anti-SJW' groups.
Tribalism is fun in a weirdly depressing way, ain't it? :P
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Yep, that sums it up pretty much. I also saw some really weird behaviour from SJW some time ago, but then the 'counter movement' became even weirder. Now it seems like there's no middle and you are either a 'SJW' or a... whatever the term for an 'anti-SJW' is ;) I prefer to have my own opinion and in this case (Cyberpunk 2077 having a gender-fluid character generator) I really think that is pretty interesting idea (while I most likely will not use it myself). No matter why they implemented really and I don't get why anyone would get angry that there are now more than two options. Ah well, another day on the internet :D
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Oof, yeah I get that a lot with the 'no middle ground'. I'm dumb enough that I feel the compulsion to engage with people who spout tribalistic stuff, and by dissenting I tend to get instantly defaulted to the 'other side', "SJW" or "MRA" status respectively. I mean I have my own thoughts and leanings and all, but it gets tiresome apparently being everyones perfect enemy totem ;P
I only have myself to blame though. Gaming forums and social media aren't where sane people go for chill discourse, but how'd that one comic go again? "Can't sleep, someone is wrong on the internet". Actually thinking of which, I was just gonna play some Rocket League, a fine place for bizarre disproportionate passive aggression and rage.
三三 ᕕ( ᐛ )ᕗ
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I actually agree with this. As a mod on a forum, I found myself often having to suspend someone from being a bigoted asshole and causing riots. And... I got called a libtard for that. But then... this one person started taking the SJW thing to a whole other level, jumping on people for nothing and putting intent into their posts that was never there and causing more riots. She ended up suspended too... then I was called a trumpanzee by that person. I have no love for Trump and not even American to begin with. But yes, everyone is quick to jump on someone, label them one thing or another and stir some shit because it gets them a little attention.
All of them are as bad as each other, it's like the pot and the kettle.
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I tend to find in favor of "SJWs" more often though, if only because their antics tends to come from a good place, whereas their tribal opposites tend to be fuelled by prejudice and mentalities of the previous generations. I mean, if I'm going to have someone shriek at me, I'd rather it be because they felt they were sticking up for the marginalised, rather than just angry I dared tell them that maybe traffic-stops shouldn't result in fatalities just because the officers are conditioned to behave like they have panic disorders. :P
The end result is similar but one is typically, how do they phrase it? "Punching downwards". In the end you're still being pelted with tomatoes, only one tribe has a bigger penchant towards the rotten ones. I mean, not to overlook that the fringe of the fringe on the social justice side are normalising gatekeeping and new waves of prejudice too, buuut~
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Oh, I find both equally distasteful. When I see certain levels of extreme from either side, I tend to get annoyed. Trust me, If I had been on the receiving end of a couple of the "SJW" rants I witnessed that were, in fact, aimed at totally innocent people, I would have been pretty upset. You might have been as well.
I have no time for bigots, I hate that kind of intolerance and they are easy to spot and no one argues when you deal with them. But... when someone is behaving like a victim or championing some cause where there is no case for it, it's like... "how do I approach this one without it backfiring?" Let's face it, it is sometimes more difficult to deal with militant SJWs because they believe that they are fighting on the right side. Being on the fringe of any extreme is never the "right" side.
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It's a weird landscape of bullshit to deal with isn't it?
after-edit : Smeg, I dropped another huge post. No stress if you don't feel like reading it :P
In one hand, the 'anti-SJW' types have an infinite number of backup members in any place at any given time, and are particularly fond of parroting 'witty comebacks' with a glazed expression ad nauseam, but the plus side is that they tend to be good at self-sabotaging any appearance of credibility, so can sometimes be a self-solving problem. Some places still go by the 'all opinions are equal!' attitude and totally buy into false compromise though, and if you get their attention you simply cannot block them fast enough. They are just as convinced of their standpoints, but their requirements to maintain that devotion are incredibly low. Usually chanting the same one or two jokes that circle endlessly, or sprinkle a few buzzwords at the latest senseless civilian fatality / beating / domestic abuse article.
In the other hand, the genuine 'SJW's are sometimes given an an automatic pass on their behaviour in certain arenas, and are happy to cannibalise one another over the slightest dissent outside the accepted norm in a kind of weird perpetual clout-chasing ecosphere. This has the side-effect of making it difficult to challenge people when they normalise regressive things hiding under the disguise of something progressive, and there are plenty of advocates/activists who seem to be in it solely for the catharsis (to the point of 'championing' causes for groups who do not in fact share their views, sometimes going as far as to attack the people they claim to be helping if they ask them to stop). Though in my eyes, at least that's some form of structure to work with, whereas the anti-SJW archetype is more a case of aggression for the sake of resisting all forms of social change, no matter how new or blatant the problem is.
In a sense I'm a bit hypocritical, because I find more in favor of SJW-types because of the liklihood they mean well but went too far, but at the same time I tend to be more critical of them, and against all my common sense, I try to engage with them whenever I see objectionable 'sjw-ish' content in my social media feeds. It doesn't often end well. I mean, I do the same to the anti-SJWs but given the level of their exchanges are typically "haha fuckin attack helicoptors, two genders, oppression olympics lolol" or "if he didn't want to die at that traffic stop he wouldn't have been black in our country" and similar blatant troll attempts trying to lampshade their views, there isn't usually much to work with. :P
Maybe its because I fall into the 'good intentions' side that I feel the need to try 'clean house' more, because if I'm not trying to point out the formation of homegrown prejudice and the enabling of sexism / etc within the ranks of the supposedly rational, then in a sense I'm also an enabler, I guess? The way I see it, is that the 'SJW's are basically the youthful form of the anti-SJW types. Right now, there is still a chance to disassemble pieces of what is wrong with it, and perhaps plant the seeds of doubt that will turn people away from future prejudice and hostility. But given enough time, the fringe SJW types will 'mature' and turn into fully fledged perfect mirror copies of the 'anti-SJW' drones, just parroting mindlessly and not even engaging in discourse in the slightest.
My oldest buddy keeps trying to remind me that I'm not the asshole whisperer, and it's not my job to try talk sense into every internet salt golem, but like I said, I guess I lack common sense. Heh.
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Haha! For sure.
(And no prob, I read it and I agree with you on all of it.)
One thing: I am glad that some third level schools are banning "safe spaces" and "trigger warnings." I hope they all follow suit. When I was an undergrad, there was no such thing. There were societies for people to hang out and feel safe. A students union or a counselor you could go to if you needed help. Everywhere was safe because there was no tolerance for bullying. Then again, Europe is more progressive I suppose. Our free speech laws exclude hate speech. All these so-called modern "safe spaces" do is allow young people to run away from opposing opinions so they can sit together and discuss it, condemn everyone else and feel totally justified in their extreme views on how the world SHOULD be. Echo chambers. I don't believe that is healthy. I've always found it fun to debate with others on various topics. I have never been truly neutral. I can't claim that. Having moderate views does mean that at times, I have found myself siding with the left, other times with the right, depending on what the issue/bill that was being voted on... but never siding with the more extreme people. The truth is always somewhere in the middle of crazy debates, methinks. lol.
Kids need to learn to look at opposing ideas instead of being closed off in their little tribes, so they can make more informed decisions. I don't think humanity is doomed, yet. lol. Perhaps if more schools shut down this trigger warning stuff, we'll start to see people dealing with what is going on around them instead of hyperventilating and bursting into tears. =) If you get THAT triggered, you really need to speak to a counselor and sort out the underlying reason for extreme reactions.
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After-edit : Uh oh, another big one. Seriously, having free time and waiting on other things has an awful effect on my posting length ;P
The TL;DR version :
I feel trigger warnings are actually really good things, and safe spaces have great potential if managed well.
The full version :
Trigger warnings are supposed to exist as a means to let people brace for impact though, and in that sense I think it's important they stay. People with trauma or really tender emotional issues deserve the chance to self-moderate instead of being blindsided by panic attacks, and the inclusion of trigger warnings takes no effort. Akin to if we could stop old car exhausts from backing up around PTSD sufferers, a filter that makes them clear their throat first and say "Here it comes" as a little means of mitigation. In the case of entertainment media, this lets people with certain histories make an informed choice. To be honest instead of short trigger warnings, a more informed general content review system would be great, because I love horror but despise movies that are nothing but cheap startle-scares and gorn / overreaches for disgust. It can really fuck up a persons whole mood when a generic action flick throws in an arbitrary rape scene for token vengeance rhetoric, and for parents who have lost a child, the unexpected inclusion of child abduction as a throwaway action-justifying trope can really hit hard. Even if they have to preface the content warning with 'Spoilers be here', it'd go a long way to helping general moviegoers make a more informed choice when picking what to see if you have criteria that tends to make you dislike stuff more. Same for games really.
I would love it if media would give out misophonia trigger warnings because nothing ruins my mood faster than the deliberately exagerrated sound of someone open-mouth chewing, haha. Moreso if it catches me at a certain moment and I get a lovely recurring instrusive feedback effect, urgh.
(Fun fact : Misophonia is basically the polar opposite of ASMR, where similar sounds cause an emotional and often physiological response, disgust, need to flee, genuine rage, etc. Weirdly enough, you can still get the positive ASMR effect while having misophonia, but it's a total minefield on which sounds trigger which response)
Safe spaces also provide an important outlet, and while I agree that without being exposed to opposing opinions we are at risk of turning 'soft' social bubbles into full coccoon-like echo chambers, different people have different experiences and requirements. If someone is dealing with trauma relating to sexual abuse for instance, then having a place they can retreat to when they feel overwhelmed lets them catch their breath and prevent their building mental/emotional responses from boiling over. An equivalent videogame metaphor being that without a safe space, for some people it's like trying to complete an underwater dungeon but without air pockets to refill at, making it an all-or-nothing effort each time, where total retreat, a risked public meltdown, or an admission of impossibility becomes the only real options. Safe spaces don't just act as a way for people to calm themselves down and get back on the level before going back out, but also as a place to field their concerns and get feedback when their internal narrator is unreliable. If you have a bad history with the opposite sex, it's natural that you start to see them as more of a threat and may begin to see hostility or red flags where there are none. Being able to get a second opinion lets them actively counter the nasty shit their experiences conditioned them with, and they get to do that without any other nearby students or staff of said target group overhearing and feeling judged / sneered at. Not every area outside of the home has to be a 'free marketplace of ideas', at least not where adaption for human welfare is concerned, and a properly moderated safe space can be a great resource, especially where there is a trend towards certain issues within a given locale. Sometimes all a person needs is to ask "Is it just me, or?" and get a reply like "It's not what you think it is" or "I can see why you feel that way, but try to think of it like this-". Safe spaces can act like save points in the process of deconstructing these patterns, and if properly done, can be thought of as taking some burden away from the public as much as just relieving the sufferer themselves.
That said, I do appreciate that the concept that safe spaces can easily mutate into something more harmful if that protective intention gives way to an echo chamber on public grounds, but really such social mechanisms exist already (in the public) even without safe spaces. Any group of people can hang out in open areas and unless they are regularly overheard at length, the bubbles (and sometimes the echo chambers) still form. Sitting on grass, hanging around a park bench, leaning up against a wall. All within the public realm but rarely overheard at length, all capable of similar becoming insular. While the inclusion of four walls makes that easier, at least in a 'safe space' environment the hosting establishment can post a representative / guide / counsellor / staff member / whatever, to both offer more official support, but also track matters and gently challenge if something bad seems to be taking shape. Perhaps it's my own lack of familiarity, but I would have imagined safe spaces to be more than simply reserved rooms that are essentially just empty until a certain demographic goes to just hang out in there. If there is a genuine need for a safe space, then it stands to reason that the need should be attended by staff with some degree of relevant training, or failing that, someone who can at least signpost the matters and refer to people more able to assist. If a safespace was literally just a limited-entry hangout space with no other requirements, then the establishment who organised it are only taking token measures and shows they don't really care (and in those cases, perhaps causing more harm than good). But then that's the host entitys fault and not the whole concept of safe spaces.
I imagine the trick behind this is trying to balance limited resources (room and attending staff availability) against the liklihood of attendance. There are a good number of gentlemen who are very on-edge around women due to childhood abuse and toxic relationships that condition them in a trauma-adjacent way, and having a place they can field concerns or get advice without having to worry about what others may think, or having any lasting petty judgements leveled against them, it would be a big help. Though if the campus had a limited number of free rooms, there would be a struggle to organise them in a manner where the most prevalent groups get regular access during the day, and less intensive groups have access more in the shape of an 'after hours social' kind of meetup. There have been establishments that have flat out denied safe spaces due to being male centric, which I would consider total bullshit, but on the flipside if they had tried to host such a room and there were almost zero attendees then I can see why it would have been nixed. A big part of male-centred issues is the heavier cultural attitudes towards silence / dated 'strength' concepts, etc. How we'd crack that particular nut is a whole different barrel of fucked up.
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I still think that seeing a councellor is a much better option than running to a "safe space." It's a different thing if someone is spouting hate speech of course, but for something as silly as having a difference of opinion you would really need to work on that.
I've suffered from an acute stress disorder myself brought on by a number of bad things happening in my life at the same time. It got too much for me. I even had to put my Master's thesis on deferral because of it. I know what it's like to have panic attacks. I found the trigger and faced it head-on. Once you know what your trigger is, you can deal with it. Finding the trigger is the difficult part. If you need trigger warnings, you know what it is, go get some help. =(
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(Oof, another big one. Sorry :P)
Oh yeah. I mean, straight-up councelling is the way to go, but they're not on-call 24/7 and if a persons triggers are numerous or violent enough, then a safe space could act as a handy pressure release valve. It certainly couldn't replace actual therapy-related activities, but it can help make things manageable.
Well, I say that, but in my own instance councelling isn't much use due to the whole gender paradigm, as it has instilled a rather concrete neurosis in me where all the blame is internalised and has become rather permanent over the 20(+?) years I've carried it, so being honest about it, admitting to the issues, not smothering them in layered "its your fault, dont speak about it" crap, and actually entrusting it to someone else is an exercise in torture after having been forced to bury it for so long. :P Had there been a passive support structure in place during my time at college where it was possible to do an unofficial talk-therapy deal where you aren't a direct focus (but can instead volunteer participation at your own pace), I imagine it might have had a positive effect. It could be a good introduction to the concept of councelling, where the stigma still prevails.
Besides, sometimes a person isn't ready to undergo the transformation required to 'beat' their problem on a permanent level. I imagine sometimes it can be a lengthy and painful ordeal that may have a severe negative effect on studies while freshly unearthed stuff is intruding on your mind and distracting you. Life moves on, even when you're towing a metric ton of invisible baggage with you, and those who still have their momentum will sometimes want to get through college / university, but not all people are made of the same stuff. Some people such as yourself are able to be that much more lucid when faced with unsettling mental/emotional health issues, and are able to dive head-first against their fears and uproot it with some outside guidance. Others not so much, particularly where the other aspects of their foundation aren't as stable, either through other bad experiences that were not resolved well enough to bestow them strength, or perhaps a lack of bad experiences that left them unprepared for a particularly harsh event. Sometimes the triggers are layered atop one another, and where there is more than one issue at play, things can get particularly muddy and difficult to disassemble. Co-morbid issues are a real bitch like that, haha. Or, as is my case, you have low self esteem and everything appears to be an insurmountable risk that you cannot reasonably see through to completion. ;P
Not to say that your own issues were simple or easy, by no means. The fact you were able to gradually home in on its root and pull up the barbed weed that was affecting you speaks volumes about your tenacity and self-clarity, but the degrees of support, self-awareness, and issue complexity are so variable that its a real "your results may vary" kind of deal. Especially if part of it is trust. My own issues saw me attempting councelling a few times but there was little effect, as the first attempts had reduced effectiveness due expecting hostile or patronising judgements on anything I say, so I was very reductive and cautious about anything I brought up, which naturally led to what I got out of it being effected in similar manner. Later attempts had almost zero effectiveness as things had compounded on itself.
The mind and the emotional system interface in a really weird and variable way, and that sometimes means that some people really can be over-emotional, unreasonable, have a weak constitution, or a victim complex, but the solution isn't necessarily to force more exposure via removing outlets or cooling areas. Sometimes that doesn't harden a persons defenses or force a reconcilliation with their actual environment, but can instead have the opposite effect.
Maybe safe spaces aren't a solution, definitely not on a level of therapy-adjacent methods, but I still feel they're a useful outlet if managed properly. I suppose that's the killer distinction isn't it? "If managed properly", heh. If just insular hang-out rooms with no trained staff or pathways to appropriate support, they yeah, those kinds of safe spaces could be pontially damaging.
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If safe-spaces were managed properly, were completely impartial etc, I'd be like "okay, no harm done" because they wouldn't act like echo chambers for dissenting opinions. Like a place where you could go to talk with others, but political or religious topics were completely banned.
I guess there sorta was one at the university I studied at a couple of years ago: "The Quiet Room." You were not allowed to talk, just sit there, read a book or study. I often went there to study because I am not one of these people who can mentally block out background noise. I need absolute quiet in order to take in information. XD. I often saw people just come in there and sit down in silence. Doing nothing but listening to music. But... I think you could get the same effect if you went outside in the fresh air hehe.
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What does woke mean? I don't think it refers to the particple of wake.
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A new fancy word.
Copy-pasted.
"A word currently used to describe "consciousness" and being aware of the truth behind things "the man" doesn't want you to know i.e. classism, racism, and any other social injustices. The term comes from a genuine place but is becoming overused. People mainly use it to sound like deep thinkers when they are really just following a trend."
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Well, English is not my native language and the term (and the concept) is quite new for me. I guess I'll grasp its meaning the more I read it in different contexts. Thanks for the answer
Regarding the game as long as it does not interfere with quality, story and launch date, I don't care if a I play as male, a female, a cyborg or a mutant space cat.
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what people? it's sjw, sjw aren't even a person
it's S J W
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Are you saying the people who are 'crying' right now are the SJWs?
Are you in the right thread? :P
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People are absolutely idiotic.
Agreed, though for me, the SJWs and hardcore feminists are the idiots. Keep your stupid politicaly correct bullshit out of my games, would you? >_<
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And yet, there is no sign of that in this subject.
Your post reads like a self-affirmation / rally flag for your idealogue, tbh.
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While I see no issues in what's been done in this game... There's some merit to people complaining about "woke." I'm not siding with the bigoted man-babies, but I'll explain what I mean...
You take a show like "Star Trek: Discovery." Star Trek has always been progressive anyway, but of course, some of those man babies don't agree, (they bitched about the gay couple in Discovery) but it truly has. It was just sneaky about it, so that some of it's man baby fanbase never realised. Now, the creators of Discovery introduced a gay couple in the way they SHOULD be introduced. Paul and Hugh are two valuable members of the crew, that's how we meet them. A couple of episodes in, we find out that they are a gay couple. It's simply them looking in a mirror while brushing their teeth and chatting. It needed no more explanation. At no point did the writers put their sexuality above their value as members of the ship's senior staff. It was so well done. It was like when I met a work colleague for the first time. I had no idea he was gay until he introduced me to his partner. I suspected it in the back of my mind, but wasn't sure, and it's not something you ask someone. Watching the show felt like that, a natural introduction.
Some of these other badly written shows are like "we are so woke, wait til you see." Episode 1, you meet 3 sisters, one is African American, one is Hispanic, the other is Eurasian. One of them is gay, one is bi and one is straight. The fact that they're all different nationalities is funny enough, but each has a different sexuality too. Let's explain that away by giving them one common parent. Now we have our diverse cast. Instead of introducing us to the characters and building up their personality, they've just given us all this info and defined them by sexuality. It's poor writing at best, but people seem to love it. Just because it's "woke" doesn't make it a good show.
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As long as the game is good, I couldn't care less what genders (or lack of genders) there are in the game. I also tend to not concern myself with what people (or groups of people) think when I form an opinion on something, so this has no effect on me whatsoever.
Having said that, the sliders seem to add more options to the game, and not fewer, so I'm not sure what the ruckus is about.
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Having said that, the sliders seem to add more options to the game, and not fewer, so I'm not sure what the ruckus is about.
Exactly, it even could be interesting to play as someone between male and female, just as experiment, to reach new level of perspective to world, communities and self perception.
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Did these people fail to realize cyberpunk is basically about removing borders (between Ai and humans, machine parts and biological parts, corporations and governments, and yes... between humans and other humans). If there is a game that should have a slider stuff like this, it's probably Cyberpunk 2077.
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I remember a funny tweet from a solid 6 months or so ago.
Paraphrased, it was :
"Gamers : I love cyberpunk, we need a good cyberpunk game
Cyberpunk-2077 : Has a feminine cyborg with a purple mohawk
Gamers : WTF SJWS RUIN EVERYTHING"
I love the idea of cyberpunk, personally. Though I honestly can't think of a single mainstream title that delved into full cyberpunk in recent years, with only the general themes of sci-fi dystopia, cybernetics, neural hacking and transhumanism being scattered here and there, but rarely deep enough or coherent enough to '100%' the humanity crisis. Maybe I have a blind spot in my gaming. The new Deus Ex titles had a good shot at it, and EYE:Divine Cybermancy was fun too. SOMA tackled the usually missing aspects, and Observer heavily touched along the neural hacking/perception lines. It just feels that they're all near-misses and miss the full true 'cyberpunk' spirit, in a manner similar to comparing Coke Zero with normal Coke. It's close, it scratches an itch, but it's not quite the whole thing. I think that's why Cyberpunk2077 has so much hype. Not just its potential gameplay, graphics and open-worldness, but it's a whole-flavour dish that we haven't had in a while.
I just hope they don't hold back for the sake of appeasing the most people. That inner story and theming needs to be paramount.
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I agree, would nice to see how deep the rabbit hole goes in this game!
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I share your disappointment. Many of those titles merely check the boxes of well worn cyberpunk tropes, and sometimes in the most banal fashion possible (Observer). Take away the visuals, and there's nothing fresh or interesting there. The gaming industry seemingly has a ways to go before catching up to the current state of cyberpunk literature. I've probably got my hopes up way to high for Cyberpunk 2077 - I've caught myself looking for something more in line with the ideas of an M. John Harrison novel. Setting myself up for disappointment again, no doubt, but if the game turns out to present even a fraction of that quality, I'll probably be happy .
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I haven't been a big reader in quite a while. Due to some personal issues, I found it increasingly hard to maintain focus on reading long enough for the story to grab me (and then there's my eyestrain, haha). My exposure to the more interesting parts of cyberpunk has been through old games, where it seems fans of the genre tried to reproduce certain aspects that we only see in passing tropes in modern equivalents.
I actually enjoyed Observer, disregarding the graphics and only really scratching the surface of its chosen quirk subject, it was still a step in the right direction. The pacing and polish worked for me, even if it was just a revisiting of 'unreliable narrator' tropes. It did however make me hungry for more. I do worry whether or not Cyberpunk2077 can maintain a strong narrative or have interesting and meaningful encounters given its open-world styling. The more flexible or non-linear a game is, the less fine control the creators have over the players specific narrative cohesion and polish. I know that's greedy of me, to expect them to trancend the limits of modern technology and designwork, but the escapist in me can't help it.
People seem to be particularly hyped not just because of what Cyberpunk2077 could be, but because of who is making it. I own the Witcher trilogy, but I'm struggling to get through the first game just so I can pick up any references for later. It's not a BAD game, it's just showing signs of its age and the 'mission grinder' approach that older RPGs had. Trying to stay hopeful, but the last time I did that, I ended up with Spore. :P
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I've slowed down on reading a lot too. Gaming and film take up most of my free time now. (Sorry to hear of your focus and eyestrain problems - hope that resolves for you soon.) Come to think of it, for me, it might actually be how the atmosphere and concepts are presented in a cyberpunk scenario as being more important than the actual narrative. It occurs to me that many of these core narratives are simply detective stories like Bladerunner, Observer, Harrisons' Nova Swing, Snow Crash etc, or policiers like Ghost in the Shell, and that's probably not a coincidence. Unraveling the mystery is an ideal way to present those concepts and ideas and has the benefit of focusing attention and maintaining interest, and I guess that does require some linear storytelling to make it work and progress intelligently.
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Yeah, what the hell? I mean, it's basically world-building in this case. I don't understand the outcry -- even IF someone's against transgenderism, surely they can see this as a futuristic setting where bodies are so fluid that humanity (and, naturally, gender) is questioned? I thought that was the whole point??? Isn't the cyberpunk genre all about transhumanism??? What were people expecting??!?!?
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"lets create characters out of biomass, using sliders" sounds good to me.
as long as I can still create my sexy feminine character .. who tf cares about genders? who knows if in the future such thing as "gender" will still exist (: don't be male, don't be female. just be a badass cool person. 💪
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What we know until now, seems to be pretty well explained in this YT video.
Most likely, instead of keep the option of directly create a male or a female character, they have decided to remove this direct option, and only through customization screen we are to be able to create as "woman-like" or as "male-like" character, as we want. May make it for some a bit harder to create the character they want (or maybe even not so), but should have no effect whatsoever on the real gameplay.
Now, don't take me wrong. Not stating my personal gender identification, which I believe to be part of my private domain (actually, it's very rare and only in PMs, that I reveal my gender on Internet, main reason being to oppose so many people pushing me to do so), I am all for gender inclusiveness in video games, but meaning the options to be straight male or straight female (as the majority of people on this planet still identify themselves) and the option to freely customize your gender and sexual preferences.
That doesn't change the fact, that I think, it's a big publicity blunder on their part, and is very likely not only to cost them some sales, but also to be reverted (most likely "explained, that there was a misunderstanding of their statement", lol) shortly.
Instead of being inclusive, which they claim to shoot for, they are coming out as being exclusive. Instead of saying, that they will expand the customization options to include as many as possible individual gender preferences, they remove the option, that is most straightforward for most of the people. Finally, instead of working on development of their game, they venture into the area of almost directly making a very controversial ideological statement, that none of us is really a straight man or a woman... which may be the truth or may not, and is a very interesting subject for philosophers disputes, but not something, that a game company should try to push up the throats of unwilling customers.
It seems easy to argue, that there are so many games ignoring the gender diversity, that it's good that at least one AAA game will go in the opposite direction. However it's a flawed argument. The flaw is, that probably all, that would want to use it, believe that those games ignoring the gender identity are wrong in doing so. Well, doing something exactly opposite, is wrong in the same way. Excluding instead of including. And it's no good to fight wrong with wrong.
So, IMO, they've made a big blunder, and I'm really curious, how this situation will develop further.
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in the end i mostly use "preset" face or someone's face (remember saints row?).
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The problem is more about the script. They didn't say if you could pick a pronoun which is the most important part to not forget with adding such option.
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I thought any playing character would just be V, regardless of male/female/other? Why are pronounces even needed then, wouldn't it just be "Come here V!", "Look at that, it's our old friend V again" or "I want that punk V dead!" anyway.
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It does not matter in english. But pronouns matter in polish for example.
I did not see you in such a long time!
Said by female: Jak ja cię długo nie widziałam!
Said by male: Jak ja cię długo nie widziałem!
Kinda gender-neutral: Jak my cię długo nie widzieliśmy! (polish do not have gender-neutral form, not really. So use of "they" as gender-neutral is really awkward).
I know it's true for many other languages as well. So if they do not have male / female option, then I think they simply want to avoid translating so many sentences into so many languages, not to mention making voice over.
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Oh yeah didn't think about that. Serbian also makes difference in grammatical male/female/neutral (which is not always related to natural sex/gender/whatever). I'm just so used to playing games in English I completely disregarded other languages. Sorry about that.
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I was going to say exactly the same as MSKOTOR, in French, which is a language that is offered really often as language to play, pronoun do matter since you accord all verbs, nouns and adjectives.
Your sentence "Look at that, it's our old friend V again" would be translated :
- "Regarde moi ça, c'est encore notre vieil ami V" for a male.
- "Regarde moi ça, c'est encore notre vieille amie V" for a female.
You don't really know the nationality of the people who are making a fuss since they delete the messages, they can add sliders while adding genders, including neutral one.
Instead of saying like "No matter the gender you'll pick, you'll have access to all the sliders to create the character with the shape and voice you want" they simply deleted the option to pick a gender which causes some troubles in some languages.
I bet that a lot of native English speakers who don't know much about other languages may not understand why such a fuss because in English it simply doesn't change anything.
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Even in English, if someone is speaking indirectly about V, then they'd normally say 'he' or 'she'. Having a genderless character removes that option. "I want that punk V dead" is an example that might be used to overcome the issue, to replace "I want her dead", but in some instances it would be forced.
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there's literally nothing being removed, only more options lmao
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That video is kinda misleading and very clickbaity, just like most of the guy's videos. Outrage culture...
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I've checked quite a few places, before posting this video, and it seems to me, that it presents the facts correctly, at least as they were announced yesterday (don't have time to follow up now, sorry). His commentary, on the other hand, may or may not be to someone's liking, but generally is along the lines, that I take, without any outrage though.
Mind explaining in which part you find it misleading?
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Let's start with the title. It's already misrepresenting the situation. Obviously CDPR didn't remove genders.
He mentions that CDPR is pushing an agenda with this change, which is also more incorrect than correct, considering body modifications play a big part in Cyberpunk lore. This doesn't seem like a reaction to a minority of people, rather counscious artistic change that is ment to increase immersion.
He claims that players can't create their prefered male character only one that sounds like a male. This argument makes very little sense to me.
He is asking why we can't create a male or a female character as if that isn't possible, even though a slider clearly suggests that is possible.
Then he keeps going with the "it's not okay to be a man in videogames" as if the number of male game protagonists were shrinking. Typical outrage stuff...
Just look at the comment section, and see how many people now have the wrong idea of what this feature means.
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Eh, couldn't care less. It's just noise. Still cautiously optimistic about the game. Don't want to get too hyped.
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As long as the game is fun I don't care about the rest.
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When will they add Attack Helicopter as a gender? I hope they make the character fly, as it should be.
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If I remember correctly, some much smaller games had an option of attack helicopter AND an option to create your own gender.
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That's hilarious. I recently made a little compilation for a friend. He sent me a picture of PC Building Simulator on PS4, because he thought this was a really strange game. So I searched for the most hilarious simulator games I could find in a few minutes (see pictures below). That dating simulator definitely belongs in that list. xD
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added that game to my wishlist real quick. i love the forth video.
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South Park fractured but whole did the whole character creation thing pretty well. CDPR could of just copy them with the gender thing.
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I'm definitely.. puzzled and confused O.o anyways.. it's not even in my wishlist so it's probably normal that I'm not even understanding what's happening ahah I don't get the issues.. if a game is funny and entertaining who cares about everything.. and this doesn't seem to be my genre =P probably everyone's going there on the boards just 'cos nowadays everyone's bored and in some days no one will care about this thing anymore..
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meh , who cares about these stuf tbh , 99.99% of them are non gamers who never buy games at all and follow these little things to make an elephant out of an ant , see how resetera tried to destroy iron fury and started a controversy out of nothing and when the devs faced the real community backlash they simply decided to keep the game the way it originally was and guess what's most of the comments from resetera were ? well most of them were like no i'm not going to buy the game now and blah blah blah which means they never cared about the game and never had the intention to buy/play it anyway . same goes for cyberpunk 2077 , let cdpr realize their vision of the game and respect their creativity and designe decision and stop all this bs nonesence . and besides , you cannot refund a game you preordered if the preorder is dated more than 14 days and as you clearly know most of cyberpunk 2077's real preorders were made even before the summer sale so i would like to see anyone claiming to refunding after this just to provide another screenshot containing the purchase date , bet most of them will be in the last 24-48h just to spawn a controversy
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People already refunded the game because of this change, so some of these - for lack of a better word- anti gender slider people were probably gamers. The Ion fury issue isn't really comparible to this, since in this case the company made the change on its own.
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made what change exactly ? it's cyberpunk and if you actually had just a little bit knowledge of the cyberpunk culture you would easily understand that the whole culture is about evolving beyond the human limitations and that includes changing very sensitive and life-depending organs and even sexual organs or full body change and even mind
consciousness transfer using technology so you can say that in the cyberpunk world there would be people who are strait and still be defined as men/women and there would be others as well that are mix of different genders or even different type of organic materials like cyborgs and even IA minds in organic bodies . if the sex/gender would have much effect on the gameplay or story then they would have just used the pre-defined character they imagine to fit in like they did with the witcher series and again one of the most acclaimed games of all times and has a strait white male protagonist who's all about banging women whenever he gets the chance .
and besides all of that , nothing really changed other than CDPR making this "addition" and not "change" to better accomodate to the nature of the cyberpunk genre . and everything is still there , you can be strait male or female with no problem in the game whatsoever
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I made this exact same comment a few comments above yours.. Chill..
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you cannot refund a game you preordered if the preorder is dated more than 14 days
Nope, you can refund up until two weeks after release.
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no you can't , it's 14 days after making the purchace, tried that before dude and that's why i no longer preorder unti the final week if the game supports preloading and my system can handle it to the level of quality/performance i desire
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Your statement is contrary to what steam says
https://support.steampowered.com/kb_article.php?ref=6345-QIDX-7244
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it does not enirely ,and besides the last time i preordered something months ahead of release it was the division 1 and at that time i recall them saying that refunds won't be available if the purchasehas been made over 14 days ago , not sure if this has been included in their latest refund policy revision after the EwPIC store's launch though
"If the pre-order title was purchased more than 3 months ago, you may not be able to refund back to your original payment method. However, you may still request a credit to your Steam wallet. "
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Oh, boy person. Here we go again.
this is a joke and I think the changes are perfectly reasonable, unlike anyone getting mad about this
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Only a snowflake would be outraged at such a non issue.
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It's weird when a snowflake is outraged because it doesn't want others to be snowflakes and it wants all snowflakes to be the same. pure consistency 🤦♂️. Stupids everywhere.
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If that comment makes me outraged then we're in the same boat. I'm so sorry if my comment offended you ;)
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Mimimi about what?? Some people has problems.
I hope the games and devs has non backstage problems...
best wishes.
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now this is what i called "entitled gamers"
more like "whining babies" though
in the first place, i though people "support" gender equality, with lgbt and stuff
now they make it "easier" and people still screaming... wtf
i would buy it, IF i had teh monezz
i WANT TO PLAY GAME, not because i could play as a dickgirl
even i feel ashamed playing as a girl in SP games(well mostly because they run lika alpha MALE, that's torture )
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The problem is you have three camps with different goals:
camp 1: Wants gender to remain strictly male and female
camp 2: Wants a gender spectrum
camp 3: Wants anyone that is deemed a women to never show off their body (sort of sub-group of camp 1 or 2)
So in this case it's mainly camp 1 people that are mad camp 2 is being acknowledged in any high profile media.
That said, people in camp 2+3 are also mad at CDPR due to them showing off a trans character on an in-game advertisement in tight clothes (they see it as fetishism, and don't like that such a character might be happy with and want to show off their own body).
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The announcement was made specifically to cause controversy. CDPR didn't even need to mention this.
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sales - -
Would be a non-issue but in the current political climate this is clearly targeted - its pushing a deranged ideology/agenda, the subliminal message specifically in this one is "gender doesn't matter - equality". Except that doesn't hold true for almost anything outside the realm of fantasy and hard coded game designs. Men need women and women need men - else there would be no future to support a cyberpunk (game) fantasy setting.
(Possibly incentivized) pandering and free PR they think? We'll see how that turns out for them ...
I'll be sure to let them know what i make of this with my wallet - as that is the only language that sticks.
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It ain't pushing any agenda, it's pushing what cyberpunk is about. This genre is about uncontrolled modifications and pushing the boundaries of what is and isn't human. In a Cyberpunk setting Ais mix with people, cybernetic parts mix with organic ones, people mix with other people...
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This genre is about uncontrolled modifications and pushing the boundaries of what is and isn't human.
Contradiction - pushing the boundaries of what? The natural state of being - why would that involve excluding the very basic distinctions, why wouldn't it be a third option instead? The fictional 3d models/characters resembling men/women matched with according voices are the spitting image of reality. Unless there's some wild lore explaining/picturing, how the games characters aren't born naturally and have no gender/reproductive capabilities, its just forced political pandering. Something that would otherwise not require an explanation whatsoever.
Textbook pushing ideology/agenda - preemptively gritting their teeth for impact.:
With (Cyberpunk 2077) we really want to make a video game that’s really inclusive.
(how is removing/obfuscating the obvious inclusive for 90%+? main audience)... if you tackle certain subjects then you will expect people to have an opinion about it and we respect that.
("go easy on us, just a gaem bro")Because we want you to feel free to create any character you want.
(yeah? how about male/female/android or 4th option)It is a cyberpunk world after all.
(deviant/free pass - no need to explain - oh wait ... )
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I think you are misunderstanding this feature. They did not remove male or female, they simply changed the name and added a slider, so you can chose male, female or anything in between. I think this fits really well into the lore and world.
Considering getting your info from more than one source.
What was a contradiction in my comment? Cyberpunk is about pushing the boundaries of established norms and traditional social and identity politics. People in this world might be born one way and could chose to be something else. Even you mention 'android' as a separate type identification.... That actually seems like a contradiction on your part.
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I think this fits really well into the lore and world.
You're misunderstanding the statement being made by them.
Without an explanation/lore It doesn't add anything of value, its bad PR.
What was a contradiction in my comment?
Its an agenda. Cyberpunk doesn't get to obfuscate what constitutes the basics - male/female and then add some fancy crap on top. With exception of 3rd/4th options. Society and social systems breaking down and some kind of dystopia arising from it, with it all kinds of messed up things.
This PR move appeals to real world politics - the kind, the vast majority doesn't support, let alone represents. Efforts to normalize dysfunctional deviancy in real life - you either don't care or get he bigger picture. Why else would the target audience that caught on to this be angered? Why else would there be need to explain themselves if its "that common" in cyberpunk.
It ain't pushing any agenda, it's pushing what cyberpunk is about.
Yeah right, if that isn't textbook pushing an agenda, which they flat out admit -
i'm the gender neutral red clothed fatso also known as Santa Claus.
- "With (Cyberpunk 2077) we really want to make a video game that’s really inclusive."
- "CD Projekt Red has made it clear that they want Cyberpunk 2077 to be as inclusive as possible"
- "It’s CDPR’s hope that this will blur the lines between gender, allowing everyone to be the character they want to be."
These are types they are in league with and pander to and the reason of most peoples disdain.
If you don't get the idea now you never will.:
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I think you should look up what types of topics cyberpunk deals with, because gender and mind-body issues are among them. That means it's part of the lore.
This is like saying, you are against murder, so no piece of media should depict murder, since it normalizes killing people. This is how much sense your argument makes.
Otherwise, you didn't really address any of my points, all you do is bring up unrelated issues.
Once again, you can still choose a male or a female body, so it feels like you are pissing against the wind here.
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Once again, you can still choose a male or a female body
There wouldn't be outrage if it were that simple.
You're one of those SJW wannabes in disguise - a debate with you? Might as well talk to the fish.
But at least you served the purpose of elaborating on my own arguments.
Good riddance.
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It's hard to debate, when you are not even addressing the points I made...
Just call the other person an sjw and argument won...
It is that simple:
https://www.reddit.com/r/cyberpunkgame/comments/cx0se1/i_messaged_cyberpunk_2077_on_facebook_due_to/
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I'm not grasping the situation completely yet, but as far as I gathered...
sliderbuttons from the game for inclusion (apparently replaced with a slider or two for body/voice)If anyone is interested in the topic, plans to follow, you can update us, I don't think I'll care too much as it is. Still hoping the game ends up good, but honestly have more important things going on right now.
edit: some sources for what's actually going on
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