''Cliffe's voice can still be heard as a narrator in the game, saying iconic phrases such as "terrorists win" and "the bomb has been planted."'' mmmmmmmmmmmmm I wonder why they didn't mention ''Counter-Terrorist win'' or ''the bomb has been defused''
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In before the countless petitions to remove his announcements from the game, because... eh... well, seems like the thing nowadays.
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i bet there's at least one petition already asking to remove csgo. ^^
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Nope. Slowly flipped over time and now it's "guilty until proven innocent". We'll see what happens here.
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The "officials" and "justice system" doesn't exist without "ordinary citizens". All of the law is an agreement between people like "yeah we're gonna do that and not gonna do THAT" (except totalitarian regimes and similar stuff). Until he's proven guilty, he's an "ordinary citizen" entitled to all the rights you or me have, including the right to not be perceived as guilty before proven to be guilty. And I don't even care who he is. You just put your rights above someone else's who ALLEGEDLY did something wrong.
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These are not thoughts or perceptions. This is a public article. YOU can have whatever opinion you want about him. But the journalists who play a major role in forming people's opinions should never post articles like this. They form an opinion that he's guilty already and even if he is proven to be innocent, this will stay as a stain he can't wash. I'm not saying people should not be informed about what's happening but this is absurd. They try to spill all the shit without none of the facts. For example, they're mentioning he was acquitted of assault charges. What's important - he was innocent on these charges. What people will remember - assault. Same with "terrorists win", when he also recorded "counter-terrorists win". People read this bullshit and perceive him as a bad guy when he's not proven to be a bad guy yet and the only indication of such thing (so far) is that he was arrested (while in another thread the same people will blame the police for making a lot of mistakes). And now it's "guilty until proven innocent", as some other guy said. You wouldn't wanna be in a position like this yet you judge him that way.
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But we wouldn't want to let facts get in the way of a preemptive lynching now would we?
I mean, what if they find him innocent? Then whose life would we ruin?
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So you are telling me people are falling like flies on shit bees on honey, without idea of what's really happening, spreading half story and stuff like that?
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people who apparently don't think it's wrong to sleep with someone that's underage nor is prostitution wrong either
How is prostitution "wrong" exactly? I thought the motto was "my body my choice" 👀
in reality it's an insignificant amount of accusations that are fake, imo
So... is it in reality or in your opinion? And anyhow, even if they are rare doesn't mean they don't exist and shouldn't be considered as a possibility before fucking someone's life. People who turn out to be fake accusers usually end up with way less trouble than those whom they falsely accused.
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because of how rare it is, it shouldn't be considered as a possibility
Being a possibility doesn't mean it's a get-out-of-jail-for-free card. It just means "let's find some real evidence before putting someone in jail just because someone else accused them of something". That's how justice in general works. Otherwise we don't need investigators and judges, we can just put anyone accused of anything behind bars right away, and happily (or not) live in WorseThanNorthKoreaLand
different crimes, different times
How is being falsely accused a crime? :o (I was talking about the falsely accused getting lots of trouble: "People who turn out to be fake accusers usually end up with way less trouble than those whom they falsely accused")
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I'm pro guilty until innocent
The problem with that is it would require really harsh penalties on false accusers. But then:
1) person A accuses B of doing something bad => person B guilty until innocent
2) person B accuses A of lying => person A guilty until innocent = person B innocent until A can be proven innocent, ie we're back to B is innocent until proven guilty. Or do we just jail both if no evidence is ever found? Or does the first person to accuse always win? What a nightmare :s
And anyway, that's already how the crowd works, that why the falsely accused get their life ruined even after they've been proven innocent. We don't need the judiciary institutions to make it even worse...
I wish I remembered how to do those fancy quotations on SG. Anyway.
Put > at the start of the line ;)
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in the real world which side is it better to err on? Over-believing accusers or under-believing accusers?
It's interesting that you don't mention how accusees should be believed. How about believing all people equally, which should be the obvious choice in today's reign of "equality"? If everyone is equal, nobody should be over- or under-believed. Up until facts back up someone's claims.
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Obviously I agree, and I made that explicit, that ideally we would believe everyone equally, but no system is currently set up that way, nor is it likely that it can be.
Believing everyone equally isn't hard. What is hard is that when we believe everyone equally, then we have to decide what to do in case of a draw, or as you say indeed:
Who are we willing to let fall through the cracks of justice?
Then, I would argue that the crowd is already prompt to condemn without proof. We don't need "justice" to have the same bias. No proof should equate to no judiciary sentence. Accusees already face enough punishment from the crowd, and not only for the gravest crimes: https://www.nydailynews.com/new-york/bronx/truck-driver-wrongfully-accused-stealing-lost-job-home-article-1.3638960
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Because a specific belief which I shall not name, normalizes it while these specific people try to enforce these belief on the more conservative people... And some popular people who I shall not name, support this belief so they can get away with their sexual crimes against children and females.
It's not only reddit. :p
(incoming "you're racist" comments, again...)
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First off it's:
LGBTQQICAPF2K+, they added a K few days ago.
Secondly, no... I speak of a totally different group of people who I dislike and people keep attacking me about even if I know that I'm right, about it and they just hate it.
Thirdly, I prefer to keep my words away from the LGBTQQICAPF2K+, cause having an opinion about that is illegal in 99% of the world and I don't plan to start a war which I know I cannot win, as people prefer to either stay silent or just jump on me like wild beasts.
And I'll give you a tip. Germany had ~2000 females protesting, about the group I speak of last Sunday and as I understood they'll be doing a mass movement against them which is NOT supported by the "Progressive modern feminists".
I see you don't want to talk on this topic, so I wont bother you with it. IF you want to, better move it to private chat as I don't plan to be dog food again. My 2-3 comments are enough for the anti kapy squad to start flooding people with "proof" that I'm "racist", "sexist" or "Nazi" and other such bollocks.
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western civilization reveres the ancient greeks whose widespread pederasty was well-documented additionally, a historian once described girls in Spartan society as "anally adept virgins"
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That's just plain nonsense. Specially the romans have brought depravity to a whole new level and everybody who is even vaguely interested in roman history knows that. Here's an interesting little article I came across recently.
The 11 Most Sexually Depraved Things the Roman Emperors Ever Did
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Wanna talk about the "Feminists" and what they did on the hijab day and what the actual females who fight for oppression did?
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1) I didn't claim anything, you spoke about the immigrants yourself.
2) I live on the literal boarder of Europe, so migration being my issue is totally logical.
3) I literally said that MVP in high places are doing such deeds and just want to get the belief that supports is a mass belief and a way to excuse their sins over under-aged or forced females.
Details in PMs. Suggesting that I said something which I did not and even if I did, I didn't say it so you can't use that against me, in PMs. Anything on this case and western civilization and details on what you clearly didn't understand. In PMs.
A small bonus. He who brings the word of the creator, had 9 under-aged wives while he himself was over 40 at the period where he became the chosen one. He had committed crimes against females who disobeyed, worse than the ones we see today, but can be still be seen at his home place. So claiming that his belief is a benefit to Uncle MVP in the cool place in Hollywood is a fact. IT's a fact that Uncle MVP will support movements that are trying to enforce that belief and if you don't see that as an issue, then... well as I said. Details in PM.
VoteKapyPresident2020
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I call bullshit on your anti-immigrant dog-whistling.
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One. It's migration, immigration ended last year.
Two. There' was over 2000 woman out on the streets on Sunday, against the migrants who were the cause of the rape and death of a young girl.
Three, as the media refuses to cover this, I found some info that they actually plan to do a REAL Female march for female rights, which is totally meant against the guests who decided to touch their under parts without permission.
So come here and claim bullshit on all my words. I ain't going to get another ban by the liberal moderators once more, because of getting baited in just bollocks arguments, if you wanna talk/discuss this topic you can add me and call me and my arguments bullshit whole night.
And just casually reminding. Europe wanted us to build a large fence on our boarders to stop the migration. England gave us military cars to defend the boarder. And Europe decided to allow us to deport a majority of our migrants after they physically attacked the woman who were doing their dinner for free in the camps they were settled in. And don't forget the part where they were willing to harm and murder poor Syrian girls who stood up to defend the cooks.
Well... good thing I'm... sorry my country is a "bullshit anti immigrant dog whistle", so we wouldn't have a major accident which would of enforced the media to cover it... right?
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At this rate they will end with something like Supercalifragilisticexpialidocious, I'm outdated after the second Q
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+1. Nowadays, "allegations" are enough to end a career. F-ing social media lynch mobs :x
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+1
Innocent until proven guilty should be our first instinct. It's too easy to get caught up in the moment and start a witch hunt.
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Imagine you are the one accused. And imagine you wouldn't have done anything wrong in the first place. A misunderstanding, a false interpretation of an eye witness. Valve might have suspended him and continues paying the wage until there's a verdict. But could your employer do this also? And if there's an article in the local newspaper about you and the suspicion: Your best friends and family might be loyal. But how would your neighbours react? Your co-workers?
And in the case you get a conviction overturned: do you think the newspaper will definitely publish it? It would be boring. Only if there were doubts (paid witnesses or sth. alike), the media would report about it again. So how will those people who know you, but don't have often contact with you, know that the charge was dropped?
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Well, I was referring to the general public, since you are completely right that we have no evidence for innocent or guilty. Valve did the correct thing in suspending him until the investigation is completed too, for that same reason. Noone outside of the Seattle PD has any information of what's going on. That's why we all need to calm down and take it easy.
The problem is that it's too easy to get passionate and to assume the guy is guilty. If that ball starts rolling and it turns out after the investigation that he's innocent, it's going to be hard for him to recover from that witch hunt and to restore his public image. Every gaming news site has probably picked up this story by now. That's why we assume innocence as the public, let the investigation run it's course, let the authorities do their job and then give a press release after it's concluded. If after all that he's found guilty, burn him alive.
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Being more of a centrist myself, I sometimes manage to offend both sides at once.
It reassures me that I'm not part of either toxic extremes when I'm being called both a right-wing fascist and a left-wing communist by different people over the exact same post.
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Um.
Why are you up in arms over police arresting a suspect? It's standard practice to arrest someone before a trial. Warrant, arrest, trial. That's how it works.
And assuming you meant Valve suspending him - it's not like he was going to come into work anyway while he's in jail. If they don't suspend him or put him on leave, they'd have to fire him for not showing up. "Suspended pending the outcome of the trial" is not "Canned his ass the second the accusation came up"
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Ah, gotcha. Yeah, it is pretty dumb that the media goes out of their way to publicize the names of the accused before they're even charged with anything officially. It's why an accusation ruins people's lives almost as well as a conviction.
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Discuss.
Nothing to be discussed. He made one of the best games (mod, whatever) ever. Being in jail for whatever reason doesn't change that. But also, creating a game doesn't interfere with justice, and a child molester needs to pay. He'll pay like any other sob of this kind would (if it turns out to be true). Case closed.
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Never understood the mentality of "I hate everything you did, no matter how good or popular it is, cause you're a piece of S in your personal time"
So yeah, discussions are pointless. People like/love the game, they should keep playing it and give 0 Fs what the creator did or not in his personal time. He should still get jailed if proven guilty. :p
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This dialogue (apparently voiced by him) from CSGO cache might just be removed. :X
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qZ0zEc_-tJg
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CS co-creator. His name is just one of the hundreds behind CS:GO (which is technically CS4), but he was one of two people who made the original, long before Valve put its greedy hands on it and transformed the series into an online casino.
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Wait, where does it say that he was "creating child porn"?
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A witchhunt before it is clear what really happend....
I am too old for such a shi*.
Long long ago was the way "innocent as long as nothing is proven". I miss that time....
And as a sidenote... why is it more special by a "known" person then a unknown ?
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Public relevance, more people know X than any Jhon Smith
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You can't project on people you don't know the first thing about, be it positive or negative. Why do you think people care so much about all that celebrity gossip in the first place ;>?
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In general i would answer your question with "because a lot humans are very stupid" :o)
Because the "known people/VIP's/celebrity" (or whatever called) are not better or special in any way.
Maybe only a escape from there "little" lives.
But there lives are not little... they are not fewer worth then "celebs"...
To teach my son how to make a fire or build a bow and to see how he learn, educate me too with his acting, behavior and so on is more overpowering and much more important than any news of "celebs".
And i think it should be much more important for anyone what they teach/learn with there families, friends and close people around them.
That can change the world.... maybe only a bit ... but a bit from each one make the world surely to a better place :o)
I hope i can make it clear enough because it is hard to translate this time.
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saying we shouldn't take an arrest as an important piece of evidence that requires further investigation
An arrest isn't a piece of evidence. It's the beginning of a long process where real pieces of evidence will have to be gathered at some point.
(edited to put a slightly longer quote)
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sort of. without getting into the legal definition of evidence, for the police/prosecutor it is part of the process of gathering evidence and/or apprehending criminals.
For the lay person, it is "evidence" that the police have reason to believe the person may have committed a crime. For people not involved in the investigation, the arrest and the conviction are often the only "evidence" they ever get
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an arrest is evidence in favor of the claim that the police believe they have probable cause to think the person committed a crime
That's not what you said initially. Unless you meant you want to investigate every time someone gets arrested, which sounds a bit weird unless you really have a lot of spare time. I guess my comment would have been clearer with a longer quote, I extended it.
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Reporting on someone's being arrested is neither a guilty nor a not guilty verdict, and the only person rushing to conclusions is you by claiming that anyone has judged Cliffe guilty.
You are totally right with this, but the way the headline is stated it looks like they are 100% sure he did.
Let's say he actually had nothing to do with any sort of child porn - his name will always be connected to it by the people that know him due to such an article online.
A lot of people will only read the headline and be like "what a freaking pedophile" without even reading the article which states that nothing is sure yet.
In my opinion it's kinda unncessary to post such a misleading article before any sort of evidence is set. Additionally no one - except the dude writing the article - said anything about childporn.
The author later said
that a booking over such charges "typically indicates" the creation of child porn
which means that he states that Mr. Cliffe was arrested for
alleged child sexual exploitation
without having any officail information about this [if I misunderstood anything I am sorry, english is not my mother tongue and I tried my best to understand it - please enlighten me if I made any mistakes]
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Ah, alright.
I apparently misunderstood it then - but still.. It just INDICATES it :/
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He explain it very good....
People "read" the headline or overfly the text and in there head will this guys name ever combined with this MAYBE crime. If he is guilty or not is unimportant for them. MAYBE he have done nothing. MAYBE he have done a other crime. NOTHING is sure at the moment.
In my eyes is it UNETHICAL to write such a story or to spread them before anything is proven.
I seen in a small village a "witch hunt" on one that proven later as innocent.
He loosed his wife, childs, house, work, car, moved away, his family had people around that said they burn there house down and such things (it gave much more but i don't have time right now and it is not so important because the direction is clear with this examples).
The one that spread out rumours can't be punished because he must get anyone that hear it direct from that person and none of them wanted helping him with that (and stand against all the other people of this village).
So in short... his families and his own life destroyed and the one that "throw the first stone" unpunished (fair or ?).
Years later, nearly, each one say "the cop's was there... it's impossible that he was innocent". He and his family is guilty for the most people... not from interest what the investigations brought up (innocent).
It was and it is sick ... but that's the way it go, at least, in germany in a small village.
Because of this experience with that village i am very cautious how i react on not proven "rumours/facts"
(and i am happy that only a EX girlfriend lived there and i live far away from this village in a other zone of germany and was only a sometimes visitor.. so had avoided most of the drama stuff -i believe my village people are a bit better... but maybe only my hope in humans and that they are better then i afraid :o)- )
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Reporting on someone's being arrested is neither a guilty nor a not guilty verdict, and the only person rushing to conclusions is you by claiming that anyone has judged Cliffe guilty.
Look around in the thread and you see how many say from this few """informations""" (i would call most of them rumours) that he is guilty.
And to present the """informations""" in the way you did it with the Headline it is UNETHICAL and WRONG and provoke exactly the way a lot of the people go in this thread...
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Ever hear of a police blotter? Its public record.
There are no rumors here. He was arrested for crimes related to child pornography. Whether he is guilt or innocent--those are speculation for us. The arrest itself and the way they justified the arrest---that is a simple, stone cold fact.
There's one thing to be said for printing allegations, but at the point of arrest your argument isn't against the media, it's against centuries of precedent that the people have a vested interest knowing criminal arrests, charges, and prosecutions.
There's no rationale for singling out the media from reporting this information--especially in this day and age where 'the media' isn't an institution as much as a omnipresent entity. If it isn't picked up by mainstream papers it would still spread via alternative social means, so its just an irrational restriction on the forth amendment anyway.
If you want to change the ethical standards for newspapers, you're going to have to justify why the public shouldn't have a priori to the information.
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Wrong.
In the message don't stand that he was arrested for crimes related to child pornography.
Other relatings are listed up ... and "normaly....". Nothing to his case.
So it is NOT a fact that he is arrested for that.
look easy at:
https://www.steamgifts.com/discussion/umJKb/valve-employee-and-csgo-co-creator-arrested-for-creating-child-porn#3TkyDcZ
To the rest it is nice that you say me how i intent my words and for and against what/which i intent it.
That's only your feeling/your opinion.
It's not the same as mine.
In short:
Bringing up proven FACTS is ok when people are guilty.
Unproven rumours or "half facts" over maybe unguilty ones are not ok.
And UNETHICAL with such a headline (valve-employee-and-csgo-co-creator-arrested-for-creating-child-porn), because the thread creator KNOW that "arrested for creating child porn" is not proven.
People can wait a few days to get facts instead the "fast shoots" with less or no facts.
No one get harmed from waiting on that infos.
(In his case, he is in jail and no one can be harmed from him)
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Okay first off...
You clearly have no damn idea what I said since you didn't address the larger point at all, and didn't even touch the entire fundamental premise that it's literally public record and has centuries of common law and societal backing. You just hone in on the same shit you've said elsewhere as if repetition is equivalent to sustaining an argument.
But, no. You're wrong. It is a fact. He was arrested. He was arrested for crimes related to child pornography.
These are things that happened.
They're charges related to child pornography in the sense that we don't know the specifics (and we also know we don't know the specifics) but it's a very related sphere of activity that is clearly understood. Nothing he could've been arrested for where the reason given was "sexual exploitation of a minor" are uniquely different enough.
You're stomping your feet pretending there's a meaningful distinction to be made by the technical terminology as if somehow any distinction made could ever be outside of what the non-technical vernacular (people saying "child pornography" as shorthand) are actually concerned with. The specifics don't change what it means in terms of the conversation, ie. comparing:
"WAIT UNTIL WE GET ALL THE FACTS! He was only trying to FUCK an 14 year old! Not take pictures!"
"Ohhh okay, my bad"
The difference doesn't change the situation.. It's not related to the relevant interest of the public, or would change the discussion being had were it one or the other without any more detail than exists. The fact there's such an obvious language barrier makes it pretty damn baffling that you'd be so insistent about the distinction you perceive from the terminology----but perhaps that's exactly the reason why you don't understand.
You cannot keep saying these things are not facts. You're trying to conflate the uncertainty about specifics or whether he's innocent or guilty with the known factors and going off on some stupid crusade (and in a totally disingenuous mask of ethics lacking any nuance at that) as that is an article that should not be printed. It's bullshit. You wanna justify that? Then you have to start explaining away the public's right to this information which is backed by centuries of precedent and societal interest. The way you play fast and loose with these concepts is more of a lie than anything you're railing against.
The only point even worth making in all this is that the thread should be titled "Valve employee arrested for sexual exploitation of a minor'," and that's pedantic at best.
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Maybe thinking of the good old American '50s, with their good old values hunting down communists, people that look like commies, and people photographed next to them.
Sheeeeeet. Very nice post. Why aren't you on my whitelist already? I wouldn't WL for a shared opinion rationalizing the simple matter of fact a man was arrested for a crime as distinct from the assumptions others make about guilt or innocence. However I got a lot of respect for quality posts with an application of historical context (with specific examples and informative links at that) and commitment towards smashing the beer goggles of nostalgia with their subjective "way it felt" approach that tends to cast a shadow over the objective realities of history.
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Read the text. The headline is misleading.
KIRO pointed out, according to its sources at the King County Prosecutor's Office, that a booking over such charges "typically indicates" the creation of child porn.
+
Counter-Strike co-creator arrested over alleged child sexual exploitation
It is yet to be proven that he actually did something wrong
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Thats my very black/dark humor :o)
But you should be cautious .....
ONLINE written it will often misinterpreted/misunderstood and make often trouble
(that is the reason why i make my jokes only with people that know me and understand when i make jokes and when not)
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i'll discuss when there's evidence he did something. ¯\_(ツ)_/¯
if this is fake it's pretty bad taste to incriminate someone like that
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I assume that it's true that he was arrested (due to this: "which public records show happened at 1:17am Pacific Time")
But like I stated in one of my comments above, I agree that the author made a pretty bad and misleading headline to describe something just because it "typically indicates" such a felony..
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i checked 4 other sites and they all are repeating the same things, no one knows for sure but news spread like fire.
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Been doing the same, the same exact words for all them, while this are very serious accusations, I really want to know the full picture.
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Two years back there was some Russian guy who came up with a brilliant news article about Russian soldier telling the truth that he was sent to Ukraine to fight with the rebels. American and British news companies like The Guardian, BBC, CNN etc. used all the same article and the news spread like crazy across the globe.
Turns out the original news website was a fake interview with a picture that had nothing to do with Ukraine-Russia crisis, and as they used it as source, everyone who visited the original website brought the owner unique visitors and ad revenue. They never apologized about spreading fake news, simply just deleted it, but some European news covered it so now when these kind of news appear it's hard for me to believe it really is the case. Could be that he shot someone, robbed someone, drove while intoxicated, anything really. But pedophile and rape news make the biggest headlines in 2018, so...
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Evidence is always questionable when we speak, about rich people. This type of stuff always end up in 2 scenarios.
1) he did it and paid specific people to clear the case down, so he will end up "innocent"
2) someone wants him out of the way and wants to get rid of him planting false evidence and paying the specific people.
well there's 3 which is like... impossibly rare.
3) He's actually innocent/guilty and the evidence provided are 100% believable and he gets fair trial.
Meow :p
p.s Is your avatar actually suppose to be Ariel from Disney? (not that the eye color is totally different) :p
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It is pretty likely to be one of these cases..
Normal folks like us will never know :P
What's written in stone for now is that - guilty or innocent - such a headline will forever be connected with his name.
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Well... Hollywood proved my theory already. One guy who we all know is guilty has 0 hurt to his fame and they all still love him. While the other one, even if guilty was just removed out of his own show, out of all possible awards and from a recent magazine poster. I dislike both of them, I believe both are guilty. But I don't believe that only one of them had to get choked by the duck.
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Mhm, can't say you're wrong with what you're saying.
We will never know what's true and what is not...
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I got 20 blacklists out of this, so guess people do disagree :p
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I'm sure of it too. You forgot to call me something...
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What do you like to be called?
I'm so far away from your problems, it's hard for me to know.
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Oh, didn't you know? I have a "Nazi" or "Adolf" tag. I'm still shocked that my fanclub is still not here hating on me. Maybe it's too early.
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Don't mind Kapy, she's a resident troll who likes to parade her previous open, unashamed, public posts stating admiration of nazi figureheads as a weird kind of badge of victimhood. Daring to observe the things she said means you're part of her 'fanclub' that are obsessively hating on her apparently.
Yeah, I wouldn't try to read too deep into it either. She randomly brought it up for a reason after all. :P
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Wow! I don't even have that many in total (yet xD)
Some people can't take someone who has a different opinion than their own /: Sadly.
And about your "nametag" - I didn't know about that either :o
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Just don't post any Hitler or Nazi symbols on my profile... I spent 2 hours last time to remove all of them...
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:/ didn't plan on doing so .-.
Why should anyone do that ...
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Why would anyone post a death thread and after I delete it, for his own sake to start lying that he never did ? (rofl) he might even reply in a few about it, cause he's like this stalker waiting to start his bs on me :d
People are weird, they do weird stuff. :p
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She's one of the forums resident trolls. She likes to bring up the fact people noticed some of her old public posts admitting admiration for nazi figureheads. Don't worry, most people are confused by her randomly bringing it up the first time they see it. She does it so she can claim victimhood and cash in on the negative attention when someone inevitably explains what is happening so the random non-sequitur makes sense. :P
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Discuss? Why? Why is this even news?
I don't see the minutia of district attorney X from Y doing their daily job plastered across newspapers every day?
People don't have other problems in their lives? We truly must live in glorious times.
Why would I even want to know this?
Better idea: We should've made bets on which user would open a topic on SG about this.
xD
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Metallica is always good.
But Evil is not one of her best one. At least from my taste :)
I prefer https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WEQnzs8wl6E , https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ckom3gf57Yw or Master of Puppets
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So .... there is anything to dusciss here ?
Or we going down the classic tough train that some people seem to have.
Since hes CS-GO Co-creator and his making child porn . CS-GO Players are pedophiles ?
Dont get me wrong , that guy is scum and deserve to get what he did to those children done to him in jail continiously over several decades ... but that doesnt mean thats really a gaming related news/dicussion tbh .
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Don't get me wrong......
It is nothing proven right now...
not that he really made a crime and not that the crime have anything to do with pictures of/with a child/childs.
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Dont get me wrong , that guy is scum and deserve to get what he did to those children done to him in jail continiously over several decades ... but that doesnt mean thats really a gaming related news/dicussion tbh .
You're doing exactly the thing everyone is talking about.
Jumping to wild conclusions based on a reporter's interpretation of a paraphrased comment from someone who might work with the people actually handling the case.
KIRO pointed out, according to its sources at the King County Prosecutor's Office, that a booking over such charges "typically indicates" the creation of child porn.
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I often feel somewhat uncomfortable when a creator or artist whose work I appreciate turns out to be a terrible person in real life. When Bill Cosby was accused of drugging and raping dozens of women, I wondered briefly what that meant for my appreciation of the Cosby Show that I grew up watching. I had similar discomfort when Louis CK was accused of and admitted to masturbating in front of a bunch of women he had power over because I really enjoy his comedy, acting and writing.
It puts one in a difficult situation because, on one hand, their art has nothing to do with their actions as a rapist/predator/etc.. The two are independent attributes. But then, there's the question of whether my money or attention goes toward supporting the actions of this villain. But even if I know, absolutely, that my viewing doesn't benefit or endorse the actions of the villain, it sometimes feels a bit like saying, "Hey, this rapist makes some pretty funny comedy."
It makes me think of someone trying to defend the artwork of Hitler. (Godwin's law, I know.) Technically, his paintings had nothing to do with the extermination of Jews, but is it really okay to praise it? Should we maybe forget that it ever happened? Conversely, there are a lot of other artists throughout history that could easily be convicted of some terribly crimes, but we still celebrate them. Lewis Carroll was a pedophile and took a lot of pictures of children in nude and semi-nude positions, but we celebrate him as the amazing author of Alice in Wonderland. At what point does one's crimes invalidate their art? Does it depend on the quality or popularity of the art? I don't really know what the right answer to these questions are. But it's something to think about.
Edit: I mixed up Lewis Carroll with C.S. Lewis in my original post. The point is the same either way.
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Does a great painting? But rapes kids. Put the painting in a museum and use the money out of it to help children instead to pay the artist.
Is a rapist, but has a great comedy show? Confiscate 80% of his earnings and give it for children with such issues...
This could be made so easy, but yet people prefer to just "Hate" and "Destroy the art"...
IF proven guilty this guy could easily get his winnings of the game cut short and given as charity to children in need. There's tons of kids who have a issues which can be fixed by surgery, but they lack the money. In my country for example the parents are very poor and their kids aren't getting the treatment or surgery for what they have thanks to it... If the money of such people was cut down and given to charity for such kids, they would get a normal life...
But don't forget. People hate instead of abusing the situation for a better tomorrow.
Child rape is the worst and most disgusting crime, so people should be punished for it, not only by jail, but in losing funds for forced "charity"
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That's a great way of thinking about the matter. I never thought of it this solution so thanks for bringing some of these thoughts to me :)
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Don't worry. Nobody ever did. That's why all the mobs exist :p
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Well that's probably right.
In fact the problem really is people talking about subjects they don't fully understand without bringing anything useful to the debate. You're right, people hate but don't try to think about real solutions.
I certainly won't pretend I'm worth better but at least when I don't have anything useful to say, then I don't say anything at all (contrary to way too many people out there xD)
At least now thanks to you I have something useful to say about this matter ;)
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I LOVE Subway. I don't care what some TV guy did. (now translate it to CS)
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I mean this dude made some game that I like, so obviously he's innocent.
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I literally go around and post that we should hold back judgement every time anyone is arrested anywhere. I'm all up on yahoo news and the blog for the local police blotter just like "well that couple was arrested for keeping their kids locked in a basement---but innocent until proven guilty, so maybe don't talk about it at all, okay?"
It's definitely not like I care about this selectively as some pet issue because of some other situational bias or anything.
EDIT: Oh hey! By the way, that slender-man trial just ended. Turns out the two girls were guilty. I'm glad that we finally know.
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Before this point we had no idea if the kids were in the basement, on the roof, or in Seattle. There's a strong difference between not talking at all, and waiting a brief moment until you can speak out of something more than ignorance and vague implications.
That all said, now you have a basis for going after him, especially as his own lawyer's phrasing implies the veracity of the arrest charges: https://arstechnica.com/gaming/2018/02/a-risk-to-the-community-counter-strike-co-creator-faces-150k-bail-post-arrest/
Cliffe allegedly contacted at least one minor via a website, who he paid for sex "multiple times." In one encounter, Cliffe purportedly videotaped his sexual contact with this unnamed witness "against her will."
"Even if the facts are true as claimed, this was a meeting on an adult website," Cliffe's defense attorney Zachary Wagnild said when requesting that no bail be set for his client. "He was not looking for underage women and had no idea this woman was underage."
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For sure. The comparison wasn't anything near a 1:1 analogy about what the thread knows and what judgement it should be making; it's was way too broad and glib for that anyway.. The post is a take-down of the ridiculous mentally that keeps getting presented as if the absence of total information is the equivalent of no information at all.
At the time we know he was arrested and arrested for the sexual exploitation of a miner; the arguments that are concerned with that not specifically meaning child pornography ("that we know of!!!") are totally asinine in pretending there's any meaningful distinction between that and whatever the technical terminology could actually end up referring to (though turns out it did literally include child pornography) as if it'd be a different conversation. Call it an arrest for sexual exploitation of a child specifically or child pornography, either way, the matter of fact that he's arrested for some shit under the same umbrella.
It's not so much about whether there's enough smoke to call it a fire, but just being able to say "no that's some fucking smoke right there; I can't tell you if its a forest fire or crossburning--but that shit ain't fog." Mostly though, I'm making fun of the selective concern and the hypocrisy behind the morality-flag waving for "innocent until proven guilt" and the injustice of printing accusations as fact (as if that's even close to what this is) that's coming from some of the total weirdos here when they're clearly not the type that's in this shit for the principles of justice. Just some goofy motherfuckers.
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No idea who he is and I've never played CS:GO, but what do you want to be discussed? If this is the typical artist vs person discussion that is brought up every time a talented person is accused of something, my take on it is and has always been this: I will never stop enjoying something because the person who created it is a bad person. Not wanting to support said bad person is one thing, but completely dismissing their work by, for example, never playing their game again, is a bit extreme in my opinion. I'm pretty sure many bad people were behind a lot of the things we use on a daily basis and enjoy, we just don't hear about all of them.
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No, that's where we fundamentally disagree. I don't believe at all in the idea that by consuming a product created by a rapist I am endorsing rape, implicitly or explicitly. Their product has nothing to do with their actions, people need to learn how to separate the art from the artist.
I'll never stop listening to Chris Brown's music or watching Louis C.K.'s stand-ups, and I look very much forward to start watching House Of Cards soon. I am perfectly able to separate the art from the artist, that does not mean in any way that I endorse those artists' actions.
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yea, it's the same with Hitler. He was such a great painter and writer! Great artwork and his book is a masterpiece. Everyone should have a Hitler painting and Mein Kampf at home. I am perfectly able to separate the art from the artist, that does not mean in any way that I endorse those artists' actions.
No seriously, you should check out the painter Balthus. He painted, not out of mind, a under-aged girl naked in explicit sexual poses. And the discussion about it is essential. Art needs to be discussed and not everything is legit. I hope we can agree on that, can't we? The art is always the product of the artists, it's creator. That's why you can't separate them so easily. But I know what you mean. You can't reduce a person on one action. A prisoner is more than is crimes and an artist is more than is art. But sometimes these actions are the only actions we know of and sometimes these actions are really heavy.
P.S. no hate, we are all more than just our posts :)
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No, that's not what I meant at all. I'm talking about the product, not the creator of the product.
Just look at it from this way:
- Rapist makes a game where you rape people - If you like that game, then clearly you're a part of the problem, and it reflects the actions of the creator.
- Rapist makes a game where aliens invade the Earth and you have to fight them - What's wrong with liking the game? What does aliens invading the Earth have to do with rape, and therefore the actions of the creator?
The games could have easily been developed by someone else:
- Decent person makes a game where aliens invade the Earth and you have to fight them - So now it's ok to like the game?
If you like the product, the creator behind it is irrelevant. The product speaks for itself. The creators of the products are disposable.
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I totally get your point. But we humans have, beside a logical, a moral mind. It's to easy to demand a separation from the product and the creator. And to provoke you a little bit more, why can't a rapist be a decent person? The actions of a person defines how you think of them. Producing art is an action. How does this not reflect on it's creator?
In my eyes, this is a philosophical topic. Just look how vivid the comments are in here. We have a person whose action were admired, praised and loved (creating CS) but who is now suspected of doing a really bad, hated action (child abuse). It's the same with Chris Brown and Louis C.K.. We don't know the person, only their actions/products. And they all have in common, that people admired them and were then disappointed.
I really hope you still want to discuss your opinion with me here. It's totally fine, if you don't want to talk anymore because I'm picking on you (i really am). I don't want to put you in a position, where you have to justify yourself.
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And in my eyes there is nothing immoral about separating the product from the creator. Let's not even go into a discussion on why a rapist is not a decent person, that's not even remotely related to my point. Next you're gonna ask me to define good/bad? Give me a break.
You keep on going about the person and missing the point. I'm talking about the product. Why should the actions of the creator define whether I am allowed to like their product or not? And don't try to equate the action of creating the product with the action of doing something bad, one has nothing to do with the other. It's perfectly fine to be disappointed when someone you admired turns out to have done something bad, but that doesn't mean you should stop using/enjoying their products. It doesn't in any way mean that you endorse that person's actions.
And especially when we're talking about games? Which is something that you don't even need to think about the creator when playing? It's ridiculous. I don't know who are the creators of 99% of all the games I've played in my entire life. Should I go find out if each of them is a bad person and delete them from my library?
Should you go find out who were the people that fabricated your computer to see if they were bad people and throw your computer away? What about that shirt you're wearing? Who's to say who made it wasn't a rapist?
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pretty good point! But I think there is a different between and artwork and technical work. I do care where my food is coming from, I do care where my computer is coming from. But yea, I have no clue who the person is, who produced it. Alright rafaelgs, I leave you alone. Thank you very much for the good discussion. Have a nice weekend :) no hard feelings!
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The only type of art that I can see someone feeling bad about themselves for enjoying is comedy/movies, because you're directly seeing the person the entire time. And maybe music, because if you can hear the person's voice surely you can imagine what they look like. But for every other type of art/technical work you don't even have to think about the creator when enjoying/using it.
But even the type of art that can make someone feel bad about themselves doesn't mean that they are endorsing the creator's actions. That was my point from the beginning, it's up to each person to decide whether they will continue to enjoy the creator's product or not, but if they decide to continue to do so they are not complicit.
Have a nice weekend. :) Not at all. I mainly took issue with va3victis "implicit endorsement" comment, because I refuse to believe I am implicitly endorsing masturbating in front of women when I laugh at one of Louis C.K.'s jokes or that I am implicitly endorsing beating women when I jam to one of Chris Brown's songs, because I am completely against all those things.
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Ben Afflect sexually harassed a reported, does this mean I shouldn't watch Justice League now?
A friend of mine is in love with CS:GO, do you think this will make him stop CS:GO and go play COD or something instead?
The girl I love (even if not a physical person) is a mass murderer? Does this mean I shouldn't love her now?
Your logic is like... amazing.
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I absolutely agree with what you're saying, but that third example should at least give you some pause. I think it's not exactly a perfect match to the current argument, because it has nothing to do with a product or some other form of consumer relationship.
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Third one was just a random emotional burst. Don't mind it. :p
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damn this thread have more cancer than ow, cs, lol, pubg, minecraft mixed....
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But does it have 'more cancer' than unironically and randomly referring to unspecified things as 'cancer'? :3c
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Well, far as I can see from the report:
Guy cheated on his girlfriend, paid a woman for sex, treated her nicely in general, but took a video of her without her consent. (I'm assuming for now that the video was for personal consumption.)
Girl went to an adult site to take advantage of horny guys and make money from sex. Obviously hid that she's a minor.
So while the guy is an asshole, and the girl might be underage, I feel that 'child porn' exaggerates the situation.
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A guy who found a prostitute on an adult site isn't someone who sexually likes children or pubescent girls. He's someone who likes young adult women. Just because the prostitute turned out to be underage doesn't suddenly make the guy a menace to society.
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What you say is true, but not really applicable. I mean, surely you can delineate between the cases. In the case of traffic, you can hopefully tell that if a guy entered a one way street the wrong way because the no entry sign was completely obscured by vegetation, that doesn't make the guy a traffic menace, even if it was dangerous. Similarly, a guy who is looking for sex with an adult and has it with someone who professes to be an adult doesn't suddenly become dangerous just because she lied.
That guy didn't seek out 'anyone he's attracted to'. He looked for a woman on an adult site. Trying to frame it another way is disingenuous.
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What if your car clearly says you are NOT going over the speed limit, but you actually are. Are you stil a menace to society? Because that would be the obvious comparison here.
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