Thank you and the other support staff for all your hard work!
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If it is not an emergency, however, then be assured we will deal with it when we come back.
But that guy whose GA (which I won) that ended 5 minutes ago declining my friend request IS an emergency! He needs to be permabanned immediately for such rudeness. Don't you understand ? /s
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You laugh, but I just had one of those last night. P
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I feel your pain. *gently pats shoulder*
I was trying to use making fun of as an educational tool for those you might file similar tickets or even contact mods on Steam about it which basically would feel like harassment to me.
Like negative reinforcement ;)
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Yeah, seems I am not the only one who thought Khalaq should remove that point :D
I am sorry, Khalaq, but some people simply lack common sense altogether. Their problems are urgent, so I think it's only gonna give them an incentive to do it again :D xD
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These rules should count for mods too. If a mod spam around, the opened ticket should not closed without suspension or response. Mods who threaten others with a ban, should banned too.
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The rules are the same for everyone, although Mods are held to an even higher standard.
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higher standard.
That means the rules count not for the mods.
This you can see mostly with flames. In this forum are many flamer. I already saw "F**k you" "Fym" and more. I asked the support. The answer "We do not ban for bad language". Super -.- But what would happen if I write to a mod "fym"? I would instantly get a perma ban.
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No, they are even observed stronger for their behaviour since they are representing the rule set.
Edit:
But what would happen if I write to a mod "fym"? I would instantly get a perma ban.
That's not only bad language, but arguing (being euphemistic here) with a mod (see point 3 in OP). And it makes sense, because it protects the staff. I don't see where you see unjust rules here ..
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You say, "Mods are held to an even higher standard," and yet, it's not Mods that have to walk on eggshells during any kind of contact.
The average user has to be a paragon of virtue, avoiding any kind of "antagonistic attitude" or bad temper in admittedly difficult situations where things are often not as black and white as the person being accused / targeted being the "bad guy".
While the Mod is free to be as cynical, sarcastic, and condescending as he may like to be.
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"free to be as cynical, sarcastic, and condescending as he may like to be."
That is allowed for regular users too. Some of them at least...
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It's exactly because mods have the power that they should be held to a higher standard.
Unfortunately, it's really only the other mods who can effectively do so, and tickets aren't handled in public, so it's hard to say what's what.
There's a fine line between being a jerk and being a dick. It's a balancing act for both users and mods. Users shouldn't be dicks because they'll get banned. Mods shouldn't be dicks because it's bad for the site, but calling them out on it is difficult. Both can be jerks, though, without much of any recourse.
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Jerk. Dick. I thought they have the same meaning. A clear proof I need to improve my english. /will look for them, no need to post the meaning i guess
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I don't think you'll get that distinction from a dictionary, or even that everyone agrees with a difference in meaning. :-)
To me, though, jerk is more a criticism of style (I don't like the way you say things/go about things, whether they're good or bad) while dick is more a criticism of action (what you're doing is hurting others, deliberately, and you don't care).
Alternatively, you can just see a dick as a worse jerk, that works too...
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They're pretty much synonymous to most people. I guess you could say that being a dick is slightly worse and mean spirited, but being either is something everyone should strive to avoid.
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Actually I tend to disagree with you entirely.
People are often pissed off when they get a response from us, or before they even get a response from us. Often times they are "cynical, sarcastic, and condescending" and we can't let our own feelings about it get in the way of handling the situation.
When we are following protocol (the steps we must take to ensure fair decisions for all), I often get yelled at, cursed at, told I'm making a lot of unnecessary work, etc...
This happens to all mods. We then need to take a step back, and consider the office we hold before making a response. If I wasn't a mod, I'd probably instinct react, but instead, we usually need to take a moment and carefully craft our response to be professional. We have to understand that a user typically isn't actually mad at us particularly but what they are currently dealing with or upset with. Sometimes it's not even the issue in question they are upset about, something else is going on that is bleeding into the ticket and we are the closest target at that time for them to vent their frustration, anger, etc at.
So, walk on eggshells? Or have to brush it off and not let the negativity affect us... Both can be similar. However, plenty of users don't walk on eggshells and suffer no reprisals at all.
Flip side point of view :)
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You say, "Mods are held to an even higher standard," and yet, it's not Mods that have to walk on eggshells during any kind of contact.
You have no idea. If you post something, perhaps a Mod will read it. If a Mod posts something, chances are good that every Mod will either read it or hear about it from one who has. Not only are you expected to follow all rules at all times, you are also expected to execute your duties flawlessly. It's like being in front of a jury every time you open your mouth. And then there's the fact that any regular posting by a Mod is almost certain to draw criticism, derision, complaint, insult, etc. Your response is only one example. It is small wonder that most Mods post rarely (if at all) and good Mods have quit because they'd finally had enough.
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I completly agree with what you say, but since you are a mod...
HOW CAN YOU? PRIVILIGE. DESPOTISM.
You say, that mods spend more time on other mods, instead of paying attention to normal users? Thats a two-class society!!!
I bet you even talk to other mods outside of SG and don't get punished for it.
PS: Added all mods right know to discuss this important comment. ;->
Tried to break all five rules in this post, but 1 is hard without just plain insults, and 2 and 4 are hard to break in a single comment as well.
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Couldn't you just be pre-active and hammer everyone? Maybe start with that cg dude too?
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We've been keeping our eye on him, but he always seems to slip by. Must be hacks.
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Must be hacks.
So what, thats not calling out? Its like "Hey guys, last time we banned user X and now watch out, maybe we ban him later again because he is using hacks" -.-
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Pay attention. If someone just got hammered for something, don't imitate his or her mistake.
There is no way to know someone "just got hammered", let alone for what, unless you studiously check profiles of everyone you suspect might have gotten hammered for something, or unless the mods have actually deigned to comment on the behavior publicly (which rarely happens).
I'd love to be corrected if I'm wrong; I may have missed something obvious.
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That's true. You sometimes notice that a certain active forums user isn't posting anymore and then might check his profile, but in other cases ..
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This is what we've mentioned earlier, way back, that we'd love to have the reason stated for one's ban - on his SG profile. Some people need to see an example so that they don't act in a certain way.
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There are forums that operate this way, or even more obvious than that, by displaying the ban status, length and reason with every post of the banned, for as long as the ban is in effect.
I'm not saying SG should adopt that, but it would make it a whole lot easier to avoid behavior that gets you banned by paying attention. Of course, the other side of the coin is that it would make witch hunts/"piling on" much easier. Most other forums aren't for giveaway sites that include blacklists.
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I agree, however, I would deem ensuing blacklists as a necessary evil.
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You can see in threads if someone is close to getting hammered by their behaviour and the responses by people or mods.
It's not hard to click on their profile later to see if they were suspended.
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With the mods being understaffed, the tendency of people to merrily "skirt the edge", and the fact that closed threads drop off the face of the earth, I find it really hard to tell, from forum contents alone, if someone has been suspended or is close to getting suspended or should have been suspended.
Then again, I'm not usually close to such threads, so it's easier for me to miss the clues. Which is OK, since I don't need them, since I'm not close to such threads... but the general point stands.
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You do have a point, however. Sometimes a Mod will announce a suspension in order to warn others that the line has been crossed, but there are other times when a Mod will do it "quietly" so as to avoid "making a scene" out of it.
To be frank, you are better off being "not close to such threads." I wish I could avoid reading them, too. P
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To be frank, you are better off being "not close to such threads." I wish I could avoid reading them, too. P
"Perks" of the "job", huh? π
I'm just young, rich, and tasteless. P.
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Thank you for clearing some things away, and thank you for your continuing help and volunteering free time.
By the way, is there a way moderators can have more rights for moderating the site? I mean, I'm not complaining but some groups of tickets are staying behind...
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hammering people left and right
A fine game of Whack-A-Mole, i could bring a real hammer from home, but i wouldn't want to be the first lucky one to the debut. So i'll just stay here trying real hard not to annoy anyone
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The problem comes when the person being contacted starts the argument, along the predictable treadmill of
- I didn't do anything wrong.
- OK I did but so did this guy and he's not banned right now.
- OK that's not relevant but what I did wasn't actually that bad.
- OK so maybe it was bad but I still don't deserve this treatment.
- Whatever, you're just a dick for doing this. Yes I said "dick". Now ban me, you power hungry fascist, I dare you, but know that YOU are in the wrong here, and I'll remind you of that FOREVER.
Maybe a better way to formulate point 3 would be "don't be antagonistic towards mods when they contact you". When a mod contacts you, ideally your first instinct should be to question your own behavior and how it's perceived, not the mod, and even if you consider the mod in the wrong, to remain civil, and even (and this is the hard part) to not start a blood vendetta if the mod does suspend you.
Up to a point that'll always be wishful thinking, of course. Nobody likes to think they're wrong; even having to consider the possibility is up to some point offensive.
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The problem comes when the person being contacted starts the argument, along the predictable treadmill of ...
Have you been reading our tickets? Seriously, it's like they're all reading from that script. P
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+1
Mods are also just human beings and therefore sometimes misunderstand someone else. You should be able to talk to them in a reasonable way, without having to be scared of the ban hammer.
Nevermind everything was already said in a better way...
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Don't argue with the Mod. Mods only call you out when they feel required to do so. Making excuses only irritates them.
That's debatable. Obviously the discussion should be taken elsewhere, but nobody is perfect and if the user has valid input he should not be afraid to have a chance to bring out valid argument and be taken seriously (find somewhere to discuss in private). It's fine and all that you all "check" each other, but in any given scenario the affected user and the designated mod are those with the most on-hand knowledge and should allow for civil conflict resolution without it being like 'Mod ordered you to stay quiet so you will do so or risk getting more punishment'.
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Absolutely. There are times when everyone makes a mistake. What he's focusing on is the excuses part. He also focusing on the 'arguing' part. If you have a valid point, then yes, you should definitely bring it up. But if it's been asked and answered and it then devolves into arguing, it's not really gonna get anywhere.
Recently I made a decision about something, based on the information I had at the time, the user contacted me back with valid reasons they disagreed with me, and instead of dismissing them I referred it to others for second and third opinions. The matter was resolved to everyone's satisfaction (I believe).
The problem is typically a lack of civil response when someone doesn't immediately get what they want.
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It seems people are overlooking the word "excuses," here. The point is moot, however, as I have edited #3 for clarification.
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Keep up the good work and thank you for the effort you make :)
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That unconscious anger when you can't win Kelvin and the Infamous Machine...... ;D
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Better then can't win the Infamous Kelvin Machine :o)
(only a little joke)
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No lame 'hammer' joke yet? Well, seems like I gotta pick up the slack... :>
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Huh, that wasn't there last time I visited that thread. I really don't get how that post is any different from the usual deals thread, since when is that considered advertising? Khalaq has a bit of explaining to do on his reasoning.
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Replying here for the sake of practicality.
I understand your point now but still disagree with it, what you see as borderline advertising many of us see as being helpful. Adding links to what one is talking about is normally done here to make the message being communicated easier to understand and follow, sure you can simply type the address but clicking on a link is easier (specially on mobile) and yes the author of the post might have added too many links but it can also be interpreted as wanting a thread to be as easier to follow/use as possible.
It might be superfluos like you say but I don't see it as harmful. Just wanted to present my opinion, nothing more, if that post is indeed breaking the rules I'd still stand by my opinion on it but no longer defend it since I'm not interested in encouraging other people to ignore the guidelines.
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... if that post is indeed breaking the rules, ...
It is not, nor was it ever. I just didn't want to see SensualShakti's post(s) slide in that direction.
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I understand both sides, but the topic was at the level of explaining what to do in 3 steps then linking 2-3 different sub-paged that explain that again. Also the site is literally "click coin that resets every 24 hours at fixed time, 3-7-14-30 days give more coins, in 30 days you'll get about 3-4000 coins" and then for some reason we had links to the coin store that openly states that it's a coin store, to profile that you can reach by clickin on your name... 70% of the links were obviously findable as chrono's page is very simplistic and it's not like it is filled with banners and buttons. I wouldn't have called it being close to an advertisement, but it had helluva more links than necessary.
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Don't argue with the Mod
moderators can also make mistakes and irritate users, so the same goes both ways. i've seen at least 5 cases of mods warning users for stuff that didn't break the rules (swearing and piracy). ^^
since #3 is "fixed", i agree. =3
it's pretty annoying when you warn people (like it's happening currently in a thread) and they think they own the place so they ignore everything said.
#5 should be a written rule in the FAQ or guidelines, and despite being outside sg, punishable when they spam support's steam profiles.
well in any case, good job xD i've noticed a lot of undesirables getting permabanned lately, and some others suspended. but i'm still wondering why some suspensions are longer, shorter, and others are the same as the last one applied. all my time outs were doubled (and suspensions from many other users) so unless the rules changed in 1 year i don't know what's going on.
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but i'm still wondering why some suspensions are longer, shorter, and others are the same as the last one applied
If I remember correctly, it's about the frequency of suspensions as well as severity/accumulation of rules infraction. I don't know if anything changed, but I remember mentions about, for example, getting suspended for something and then repeating the same mistake repeatedly resulting in extended suspensions. Don't quote me on that, though.
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and in one of these cases that's what happened, that's why i'm wondering. Β―\_(γ)_/Β―
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There are many factors in determining suspension length. I am not at liberty to explain in detail, but recalcitrance.obviously plays a big role.
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i thought recidivism was the main factor, but looking at 3-4 suspensions this past week i see it was applied arbitrarily or with another criteria.
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meh... I could have used either word as they are connected in this context. I prefer your word, though, so let's go with recidivism.
When a suspension is given, it is explained privately to the one suspended.
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why ?
99% of the people that break the rules will never read this...
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I guess you are speaking of all the user which don't participate in the forum but don't activate GA, etc ? yup, these one will never learn other way than through hammer...
But I think this post was more toward the % which is here on the forum, and bans given toward behavior. And these people do read the forum.
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Thanks for giving us an update on the hammering khalaq :)
Have the punishments been more extensive as in do people get banned faster now for lets say not activating more than 1 game?
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Well, we have been trying to get through the issues more quickly as we have more people, but we are still under-staffed. Things have improved, however, which is why people are seeing Mods around more than previously.
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Don't argue with the Mod
Darn it Khalaq you're wrong!
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I hate it when a picture won't display properly. P
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Can you add a 6th point? This TS now triggers my puzzle-senses.
Part from that, gud jub!
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I all for 1, 2, 4 & 5; but 3 doesn't seem very fair. I'm guessing you wanted to say something like "don't argue for the sake of arguing" but the way you worded it sounds like you are telling people that they're not allowed to complain or question your decisions, nobody is infallible you know, not even you, we all make mistakes and must be ready to question ourselves.
Edit: #3 has been edited and now I feel like my comment is no longer needed, but I'll let it up untouched for record. Khalaq (and the other mods), thanks for hearing us.
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Perhaps he meant be polite and reasonable when disagreeing or discussing a difference of opinion with a mod. At least that's what I hope he meant, because I agree - even the mods make mistakes.
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We do... and I also believe that's what he meant.
I referenced it here. https://www.steamgifts.com/go/comment/YIrptFQ
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I think the key term there is "argue". In a disagreement, both sides present their case and try to come to an agreement. In an argument, passions flare and reason burns up. You may disagree, just don't argue.
If there was a mistake or misunderstanding, certainly bring it up in a calm and polite manner. For example, I was temporarily banned on another forum because of a misunderstanding and an over-zealous mod, so I contacted another mod, politely explained what happened, and the mod immediately reversed the temp-ban and apologized.
But had I gone in there with an attitude of "WTF?! I just got banned, and I did nothing wrong! WTF is this BS?!" the outcome would have likely been very different.
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There's no reason why you can't be polite when arguing, specially in a place like this where you can stop and think for a few minutes before writing a response. When you explained your situation and side of the story to that mod you were arguing that the ban was unjust.
Saying "don't argue with the mods" sounds very authoritative even if that wasn't his intention (that I'm guessing/hoping it wasn't).
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You're correct, and that's easy for us to say because we don't deal with such crap every day. The mods get quite a bit of people not stopping to think for a few minutes, but just angrily arguing without a point - immediately and viciously questioning the validity of what the mods just said. The issue is that argue has different meanings.
As one of the mods has already indicated, giving reasons and citing evidence in a calm way to persuade them, as a lawyer might argue, is totally fine. But that wasn't what they meant by "argue".
They meant it in the "heated or angry way" of arguing, the way a petulant child or an angry spouse might argue. They're like the teacher of a class saying "Don't argue with me", not meaning to suppress learned dissent but to put a stop to Billy snapping back "Why should I?" every time they ask him to quiet down.
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Don't get me wrong, I agree with you, mods can have a terrible time when dealing with angry users. The issue for me was that the word argue by itself had a wider meaning and one of the possible implications was that the intention of the message was to shush dissent, and you can imagine why I had a problem with that.
I'm much more ok with the "fixed" version of point 3, wording can make a world of difference when it comes to intentionality.
On an unrelated note, you made me remember my days of secondary school and how sometimes we engaged in long, vaguely related to the subject, discussions with the professors towards the end of the class to distract them from giving us more stuff to do :P
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Yeah, I agree that it could be taken the wrong way, and was more ambiguous than it should have been.
And I love that school tactic, that's awesome!
My favorite related moment was with an econ professor in college. The professor clearly liked me because I asked probing questions during class. One time, after class finished, I approached him to ask some more questions. Unfortunately, so did about a dozen other people, and they got there first. After answering a question or two, the professor spotted me and asked what my question was. I asked him, and he replied, "That's a really interesting discussion, let's talk about it as we walk." So he grabbed his stuff, and started talking to me as he started walking from the classroom to the Econ building across campus, with 10 other students following us out. We talked back and forth and had a pleasant and interesting conversation, and the students following us started slowly dropping off one by one. We talked all the way until we reached the Econ building and parted, at which point all the other students had left, and I was really amused that he clearly had no interest in fielding stupid questions from a bunch of students and used me as a diversion to have a pleasant chat instead.
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Three should probably be edited. It gives off the wrong message, as evidenced by all the posts here talking about it.
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I'm not sure about the problem on third point alone or isolated. The whole thread gives a message "we vs. them".
The "common-sense" call was a distant shot from what it aims: don't piss off mods with your reasons.
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It's edited now, and I'm much happier with the current wording.
Thanks for the work done guys, and for listening to us :)
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Keep up the good work, I'd like to see people as being approachable so not so much "arguing" as being able to ask exactly why things occurred. Thankless task being a mod, so its appreciated!
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Oh my, can anyone give me the TL;DR for what has been going on lately?
As usual, I always seem to miss all the drama..
Β―\_(γ)_/Β―
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Little bit of the same stuff, new day, (week, month, year, etc)
Cheers!
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Let's see... nope, sorry, does not ring any bells.
Maybe I'm doing something wrong? Dammit.
Not sure what it is, perhaps I community-ize in some unusual way?
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As usual, I always seem to miss all the drama..
Ah, but that is a good thing. )
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Well, in theory, yes. But I have, uh..., how to explain it best, darn. Anxiety issues? Yes, that's it, anxiety. Stemming from a severe and crippling fear of missing out. That's a real problem, I swear!
And it prevents me from enjoying one of my favorite pastimes. Actually, it's more than this, I'm confident that it can be considered a public service as well! Yes! And, at the end of the day, someone has to take responsibility, someone has to tell the people that they are overreacting, like all the time. And how can I keep up this important vocation of mine, when I tend to constantly miss all the drama that's going on. I hope you know what I mean. Think about my situation for a second. That is a real dilemma I'm stuck in! I am, like, dead serious!
xD
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Lately, I've been on a tear, hammering people left and right, and I'm not the only one. Despite rumors to the contrary, we Mods are in communication with each other and fairly consistent in our responses. We do this because we "check" each other. If one of us makes a mistake, the others are there to correct it. If one of us needs help with something, the others are there to lend a hand. We work as a team, and we let each other know what is going on with the site.. As a result, it is inadvisable to try playing us off against one another.
With that said, I would like to remind our users of some common-sense techniques for staying out of trouble. We Mods prefer to let our community police itself, but some individuals have been lacking in common-sense, recently. Here, then, is a cheat-sheet to avoiding The Hammerβ’.
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