that's not his point or are you just trolling again?
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There was literally said he needs it in regional lock... report me again for it, I don't care.
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I never reported you before and nor done it now.
His point is, there is no country named Macedonia anymore and the proper name would be North Macedonia.
He asks for a rename, not a separate region lock.
It's all in his comment and you don't even need to read the Wiki to understand his point.
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Not according to your government and Greece's.
And the whole of EU for all it matters.
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I have a couple of Macedonian friends, and this is their view as well. They even seem to get slightly upset if you call it North Macedonia (they're quite patriotic). It seems to be a complicated and controversial political issue though.
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Does Humble, Fanatical, Green Man Gaming, etc in their region restrict lists have Macedonia or North Macedonia?
I feel CG just copied from what they have listed. If none of them have North Macedonia then it will just confuse your average Joe on SG.
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You have a point there but should we continue a mistake for some Joes?
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LOL this is funny... it implies Greece is not a real nation, because North Macedonia is an extension of Macedonia. In this example it would be easy to view you as being the disruptive Joe here.
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I know yeah, its not my views, I just meant its a possible view.... My views on patriotism and nationality is far more complex. Its a fair point if the imported data showed the incorrect country. I've found too much context can lead to confusion and misinformation.
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Forgive my ignorance but as far as I know there isn't a South Macedonia as a country out there to be mistaken for. So I don't really understand why this could be a problem for region lock. It's kinda like Georgia as a country and Georgia as a state in USA, only the first one counts as a region lock. Region locks only work for countries, not states or provinces.
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Officially there is no country named United States and no country named Poland f.e., but it is the United States of America and the Republic of Poland. Yet we all say United States and Poland and everybody knows, what we mean. Same thing with Macedonia. Case closed for me.
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Not exactly because North Greece is called just Macedonia so we should seperate them. It's like a part of north Slovakia had a provinces called Poland so they should call it south Poland to seperate it from Poland.
There is a reason a transnational agreement between Greece and North Macedonia achieved after all.
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Sure, but nobody except Greeks is likely to confuse a Macedonia country with Macedonia region of Greece... and I doubt, if any Greek would confuse them as well. Anyway, if it was not politics, then Greece could much more easily change the name its own region name to Southern Macedonia, than spend many years forcing Macedonia to change its name. Exactly like you say, btw: "It's like a part of north Slovakia had a province called Poland so they should call it south Poland to separate it from Poland." What Greece did instead translates into blackmailing Poland to name itself "Northern Poland". So we are getting into national sentiments and politics here, and not into any problems with recognizing the country in question.
Talking politics around this issue, they are pretty nasty, and if I was a Greek, I surely wouldn't brag about the way in which Greece blackmailed Macedonia to accept this deal. Because Greek government must have been fully aware, that Macedonians would never accept this deal, if they didn't (justly or not) feel seriously threatened by Serbia and if Greece did not keep blocking their accession to NATO and EU. How would you feel about this, if you were not member of NATO, wanted to join it ASAP because of fear of Turkey invading Greek Aegean islands and Macedonia would block your accession until you change the name of your province?
I can understand, that things do look different from a personal/national perspective, but whatever the history from 23 hundred years ago is, try to understand, please, that things look much more different from outside of Greece.
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Sure, if you ignore that these (North) Macedonians are actually Slavs and were considered Bulgarians before WWI, it absolutely makes sense to blame the Greek.
But the reality is that these Macedonians simply were in need of an independent identity and they chose the name Macedonia, just because their lands covered a minor part of ancient Macedonia. So ultimately the Greeks might have acted harshly but they had every right to mind foreigners claiming part of their history and symbols as their own.
And last but not least there have been plenty enough wars in the Balkans. It certainly doesn't hurt anyone when it's internationally established that Nothern Macedonia doesn't actually represent Macedonia. Including potentially resulting claims on neighbors, based on such a name. We've seen that kind of plot often enough. Better safe than sorry.
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I don't really care about how it looks to an outsider, like yourself. I don't even agree how the Greek goverment handled the matter.
I didn't get into details, political or historical, and I won't.
All I am saying is that there is no "Macedonia" country and that's a fact, that's all.
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I'm not sure we're supposed to call it Turkey, anymore, either. XD
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This was my first thought as well when Makam mentioned the "Poland being North Slovakia" example. Obviously, I have an outsider perspective (though in many ways outsiders will be more impartial then both Greek and Macedonian people who each have their own biases) and I haven't studied the history in a lot of depth, but on the surface it seems oppressive to force an entire country to change its name over just a region of a different country. If it was between two countries, then I would understand that the bigger one might get more of a priority.
I also grew up in a country that has been opressed by its "bigger" neighbours, so I know how that feels (but it also creates my own biases of course, so it is complicated).
Still, it is a complicated issue, and most people talking about it will have their own biases and perspectives. But this whole thread is more about geopolitics than any "Bugs / Suggestions", and should probably just be locked.
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I thought I wouldn't write something, because we live in strange times and being called a nationalist or something like that is almost certain. I'd rather be blacklisted than labeled as such, thanks.
It is not only about the name, but the history of Macedonia. Some facts:
Alexander the Great lived in the 4th century BC.
The Slavs who now live in North Macedonia, came in the 5th century AD. Almost a millennium later.
If you went to the capital of North Macedonia, before the agreement, you would see statues of Alexander the Great and if you asked the people there, almost everyone would tell you that Alexander the Great is part of their history. As you can see, history can easily be distorted and the falsification of the country's name can only accelerate it.
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I definitely understand being proud and protective of your own country and its history, and I don't view "nationalist" as so much of a negative term (although it can be) across much of Europe, where the cultural identity and cultural heritage is a lot more sensitive and volatile than in more major western countries like USA, Canada or even UK. As especially in Europe it is difficult to walk the line between between proud of your own heritage and country, but not to be antagonistic against other countries or cultures, because of how intertwined and complicated (and often distorted as you say) history can be. So, even if you don't intend to be "nationalist", just patriotic, someone might still label you as a nationalist. With geopolitics it is always difficult no matter what.
I also know that my knowledge of history on this (and many other issues) is quite limited (I appreciate the bit of extra info), and my own perspective and biases, come from a country that has been historically oppressed, so I tend to lean towards the "smaller" countries in many conflicts, but still I never blame people for being protective of their own countries and cultures and what they have grown up with. I think that is completely normal and understandable. My own and a lot of perspectives here will come from feelings and lived experiences, that will obviously be different for each of us.
P.S. I do recognise that my views here are mostly just my feelings and I am writing a lot without saying much. Still, I would love if all cultures and countries could get along without conflicts (I have lived in many different countries, and have friends from all across the world; for example I have real life friends from both Greece and (North) Macedonia), but I know unfortunately in reality it is often impossible.
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The case of Northern Macedonians isn't that they are protecting their culture or heritage.
After ancient Macedonia, Rome, and the Byzantine Empire, these lands were part of the Tsardom of Bulgaria. And the language they call Macedonian today is actually not much more than a dialect of Bulgarian. Ethnically the Northern Macedonians are also Bulgarians. Their DNA is a closer match to their brothers in Bulgaria than to the Greek DNA.
After the Balkans got rid of the Ottoman Empire, Bulgaria, Serbia and Greece fought the Second Balkan War about this region.
Bulgaria lost and the Serbians tried to either Serbianize the population or at least to undo their status and heritage as Bulgarians. So if they weren't Serbians and couldn't possibly be allowed to be Bulgarians, what else could they possibly be?
And that's how the Bulgarian-speaking ethnically Bulgarian population with a claimed ancient Macedonian heritage was born, mostly promoted by the Jugoslav communists. And after decades of indoctrination, being taught at school that their heritage and destiny is a Geater Macedonia, that's where we are today.
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By extension, "Turkey" never existed. It used to be "The Republic of Turkey", and now it's known as "The Republic of Türkiye". But everyone and their mum still call it "Turkey". And everyone, except maybe people celebrating Thanksgiving, knows what is being referred to.
This all seems very fussy, but it's an easy change that doesn't hurt anyone so why not I guess? 🤷♂️
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Not to mention the Greece itself, which actually is the Hellenic Republic. Better not to change this name though, cause probably most of folks would not be sure, what this stands for ;)
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Wouldn't a name referencing(?) the Hellenistic period be too much association with the Macedonians, bringing us back to square 1? Why not just go old school call it Ionia, the way Persians, Arabs and Turks refer to Hellas :)
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You might have better luck if you went after steam for this.
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I'm kinda stuck on this. On paper, they're still oficially called North Macedonia whether they like it or not as per the agreement. So history wise they'll still be north macedonia. As for them maybe wanting to be called macedonia and not add the north to it, I can understand, after all, greece themselves doesn't seem to be interested in renaming greece to macedonia, so they don't want that label, they just want to prevent others from using it which is kinda like useless copyright holding so I'm always against that, although north macedonia sits on a pretty large chunk of ancient macedonia although greece's is 4x bigger. Even then, from the same map, it seems greece macedonia is also bigger than ancient macedonia, so should those extra pieces of land be called macedonia, or should they also be renamed to new macedonia? Is it fair for greece to use that name for non-existing areas of ancient macedonia as macedonia, but not fair if someone who is really proud of that name wants to call their entire country as such despite still being on a chunk of that land? Should I be upset at those people for wanting to embrace that, while greece themselves denies it and refutes it, but also wants to prevent others from partaking in it?
I think the fair response to this would be for greece to then rename those areas to south east and west macedonia, to show interest in retaining that name, otherwise it doesn't seem like something they want badly because they're proud of it, but more like something they just want in their collection of names, and don't want others to use it. But in the end, there's not two macedonia countries, so it doesn't bother me, in fact I prefer it simpler so I don't have to read North Macedonia every time. Not that I deal with region locks there ... well ever basically.
TLDR: To me it doesn't seem as bad of a thing or as offensive due to the circumstances.
Curious how op feels if a new country was formed right now wherever in the world and they wanted to be called Macedonia. Would that be offensive and why? Are names indefinitely restricted for the rest of eternity kinda like a xbox username then at some point countries gonna have to add xxx420Countrynamehere1337xxx to their naming cause the username was already taken?
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You are missing the point, it's not about me or my opinion, it's about LEGAL INTERNATIONAL AGREEMENTS.
But since you asked, and as Greek and Macedonian citizen who lives 30KM from Alexander the Great's palace and 5KM from his school, it was the previous goverment's mistake to give the name and the main reason they didn't elected again. But that's politics and it's always dirty. Even from a historical point of view I will ask a simple question: which language did Alexander the Great speak, the one the north macedonians speak or ancient Greek? And this is just a simple argument, but I won't go on because it's easy someone to say "sure, op is greek, what did you expect him to say?". If you are interested feel free to search reliable sources, you will get to the truth eventually.
By the way, your attached map uses the correct names.
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I think you're missing my point. As you said the truth is out there so people can always look up and see the whole lengthy name of the country, but other people pointed out for instance we don't refer to poland as republic of poland, and that there's other examples out there. So if greece doesn't want to claim macedonia as a country name, and replace greece with macedonia, then it should be up for grabs. Just because another country had it at some point in time hundreds of years ago seems pretty irrelevant to me, and if another country wants to show some respect to the land by carrying forward that name then that's in a sense more respectful imo and I'm all up for it, especially since they are on part of the land as well, albeit not all of it. Considering all these things, it doesn't bother me if North Macedonia is listed as Macedonia under countries in whatever place, as there's no competitor for it or anyone else who claims to be macedonia. Greece might have a territory they refer to as macedonia but it's not their country name. There's plenty of places such as this. To me, being upset over this seems more like carrying useless hate for someone for no reason.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_homonymous_states_and_regions
As for asking what if another country wanted to name themselves macedonia unrelated to the events at all in a whole different place on the planet, then it seems we disagree. You seem to have a strong attachment to a name of a time or place you've never lived, and just because those lands have had that name to them it makes you feel good so someone else using it makes you feel bad about them, despite you doing nothing to carry that name forward and them doing so(maybe even unrelated). However in the end, in the recorded history, at that point in time, people would know where ancient macedonia was, and if another country showed up now called macedonia somewhere else, people would be able to understand that there are differences and it's not a minecraft portal to hundreds of years ago where you see ancient macedonias walking around eating grapes like some assassins creed mmo. Kinda like the map I showed which you said was accurate, it shows the full detailed names of said places, however it makes no sense to overcomplicate things if they don't have to be complicated in regular tasks, as we're not all historians. For the most people, a simple macedonia will do, as likely when you refer to poland, I doubt you have always said "republic of poland" this entire time. But I could be wrong. Maybe every time that has ever come in conversation you've made sure to point out it's the republic of poland and not just poland, or maybe it's just hypocrisy related to just feeling good about living on the "ancient lands of macedonia" although that has nothing to do with people today. Time has passed. Let it move on.
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Great list, especially the cases of Azerbaijan and Luxembourg :)
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Unfortunately your assumptions are very misguided. I don't hate anybody and I am not upset at all. As you saw in my post, I discovered this by mistake, not that I was searching for it. The example you use about Poland is totally wrong, since most countries are "rebublics". It's not about this or about the whole name, it's much more. You didn't even bother to answer to my question or even if they have the right to be named like this. But since, wrongfully or not, that's very subjective, this matter is agreed between the countries, I don't see why a site should use different names than the international accepted ones.
I guess you do understand that this is not about the name alone. This country has very mixed population and it's only some decades old. They desperately were looking for some identity and history because otherwise they would be consumed by Albania, as almost half of their population is from there.
Your list is very lacking, there are many more examples with a simple one coming to mind of Athens being our capital and a city of Georgia, USA and so on. The point is that every example is very different and unique, but as for Macedonia is definitely not about respect. If you really interested about it you will find out that general Tito, back then when there was Yugoslavia, first thought about it when he saw that Greece was becoming more of a western country and not one belonging to Communist Bloc.
But all these are tiresome to most people, I tried to avoid details and express one simple question, why SG, being a site about gaming and not politics, should be the godfather of a country?
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If your real concern is about the legal, international agreements and legal names, and not about your nationalistic sentiments, then lets go for a compromise: we will ban the use of country names of Greece and Macedonia (for Macedonia temporarily, until it legally changes its name back to the original), and enforce instead usage of the full legal names: the Hellenic Republic and the Republic of North Macedonia.
Truth is though, that both you and the Greek Government are fighting a lost battle here. Macedonia has already joined NATO, but Greece being not the only villain here (cause blackmailing weaker states into concessions is a villainous act, IMO), they are still under a lot of pressure from Bulgaria, which demands cultural/historical concessions from them in exchange for not blocking/slowing their way into EU. So for now Macedonia surely can't reopen its feud with Greece. However once it joins EU (and this will happen soon), what is to stop Macedonia from renouncing the agreement with Greece and changing its constitution again, going back to its original name? Nothing, and I can bet, that this will happen in the next 10-20 years.
Also,if you "don't even agree how the Greek government handled the matter", then why are you so persistent in asking others to acknowledge the spoils of such handling of the matter? Something seems to me pretty inconsistent here.
All of this is just heating up another side of the Balkan powder keg, that we will be lucky, if it is successfully disarmed in the next 100 years without another major war in the next 10-20 years. Sad, that Greece, being one of the very few mature states in the area, with its history known all around the world, is unable to distance itself from such pity disagreements.
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What are you talking about? WE, you and me, will make compromises? Who are we to do so about the names of two countries?
I am not fighting any battle, I just did a simple observation by mistake. This country didn't even exist 50 years ago and not sure if it will exist in 50 years from now. Of course same goes for many countries.
Am I really that persistent here? I sent a simple ticket to SG and a mod suggested to post it here. Out of respect of you all I read all your posts and try to answer based on history, facts and agreements. If SG decides to do nothing it's ok. Of course I could say the same for you.
I didn't see you mentioning your countries, that would be helpful for me to understand better your opinions.
For you it may be "pity disagreements", but for us who live on the same soil and have fought many wars over the centuries it does matter, whether you understand it or not.
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Sorry, I've assumed, that it's as obvious from my avatar, as it is from yours: I'm from Poland (but also with some US perspective), so close enough to know quite a bit about Balkan history, yet not that close, so I would really have any vested interest in it.
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You made a ticket and the mod's answer was for you to make a thread about it? What would that accomplish again?
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"Eiion
(Senior Moderator)
Hello Makam.
Please post your suggestion for the change here: https://www.steamgifts.com/discussions/bugs-suggestions so cg can find all suggestions in one place.
Thanks."
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See how they conveniently -for them- ignored every bit of your well-constructed and logical reply?
At least you didn't get this from them: "I don't really care about how it looks to an outsider, like yourself."
That's why I used their own 'logic': "None of your business, South Macedonian."
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This is an English language site, and Macedonia is the English name for North Macedonia. If the site owner some day decides to code some localization for the site, then a table linking country codes to their respective names in any given language may be in order. For now, though, it is likely not worth the time to make a change like this for one nation and not others.
What happens when other members show up requesting Deutschland for Germany and other local names?
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Okay. Feel free to implement localization for your own site and call the countries what you like.
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But this is exactly the point, we can't name countries as we like and it's not about localization, it's about laws.
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Maybe Greece should mind its own business and stop blackmailing other countries into changing their flags and names.
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Maybe other countries should follow international agreements and don't try stealing Greece's history and heritage.
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Talking about stealing Greece's history and heritage, it's really interesting, why Greek Government didn't block Brexit trade agreements until UK finally returns the stolen Parthenon Sculptures (in which it would very likely succeed), always just talking about this instead of seriously pressing its justified claims, when there is a real chance to press them. It's quite a contrast to its determined stand to force concession from its weaker neighbor, Macedonia, isn't it?
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Fascinating read, such an interesting mess where there's no obvious clear cut solution that could possibly satisfy all parts, all the available options seem equally bad as a compromise. I guess the only way to sidestep this whole thing would be to just remove all names from the list and instead exclusively use the two letters international codes to distinguish regions... but that would also be a horribly user-unfriendly compromise.
Now, as far as my personal opinion in the matter is concerned, I don't see why two separate entities can't share the same name. I get that there's historical reasons behind this problem and that in Europe this kinda things can start wars, but this is a freaking gaming forum, it's not like a list being slightly inaccurate about recent changes on the legal name of a country has to immediately spark a shitstorm. Sometimes I legit think that maybe nationalism is just a bad thing that we've been brainwashed to see as a good one, maybe states should be a purely administrative entity with no symbols or identity attached to them.
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I agree to all except the last "purely administrative entity" part.
To be honest, I didn't even want to post something like this or even write my personal opinion, although I did when I was asked.
It's just about, as I have already said it many times, following laws and agreements.
If we don't respect and follow them and we don't try to solve our disagreements as persons and as countries by peaceful means, then unfortunately acts of war start, as many countries know all too well.
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Yesterday I did a regional locked giveaway and checking the countries I saw that the little country north of Greece you still have it as "Macedonia".
According to a national agreement between the two countries a few years ago, this country is called "North Macedonia".
You can find plenty of info about it but here is a quick link: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Macedonia
Thank you.
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