I'm not sure if I understand the part with the "gambling sites" right. Does this affect SteamGifts in any way?
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That's the reason why I asked. Don't know if a site like this is by law defined as "gambling" or not.
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you could perform a simple google search for "gambling legal definition" and you would know ;p
For example "A person engages in gambling if he stakes or risks something of value upon the outcome of a contest of chance or a future contingent event not under his control or influence, upon an agreement or understanding that he or someone else will receive something of value in the event of a certain outcome." - on SG you do not stake or risk anything of value, because all you need to enter is imaginary points which has no real value ;)
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They can refund them, if they want to, but they just don't want to do that. ;P Anyway, I already knew that gambling sites are made by scammers in order to profit, so I didn't expect anything different. And I'm really glad that all this pointless addictive gambling without age restriction will finally stop. :D
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In my opinion, anyone that makes gambling sites and allows kids to play, is a scammer! So, I didn't expect anything better by them. ;) Now every site will do the same.
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same here. and now the admin just posted that the site is for sale, lol.
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Somebody commented "good luck selling illegal source code LOL" haha
I'm glad this happened, maybe I won't get that much shit invites for raffles now. effin' leeches, I say good riddance! :D
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I like how the admin of that group and site says "I DO NOT TAKE RESPONSIBILITY FOR WHAT HAPPENED TO DOUBLE.TF..",, but man you are the admin.... and doesn't want to return items to ppl, good I never started using those sites. He might not have to do anything with Volvo's decision, but he has to give all the items back to ppl no matter what. Unless his bot is trade banned, as he says, but still not returning items is very bad.
Same thing for the other admin, they are admins for something no...
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legally speaking - he does not have to give back anything ;) All these sites to not be counted as gambling (at least from legal point) had in their terms of use that users agree to give them items and do not expect anything in return etc.
volvo at it's finest - they tried to easily close all gamlbling programs and to hurt owners - instead they hurt everyone who used them (ano no - I never used any form of Steam Gambling myself).
And no matter if someone is admin or not. What matters is what TOS says. If TOS says admin is not responsible, he's not ;)
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so far, no, but it's not because the admin isn't legally liable, it's because prosecutors haven't gone after them (because until recently, it was never a big thing)
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I thought about that too, by Valve ToS those ppl just agreed to give all for items to the bots of that site and expecting nothing in return. But still if they made those sites they had to think about problems like this and how to solve them, not run like a rat from a sinking boat, it's just a matter of respect, but well.
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from a legal point of view (since you brought it up), that's bullshit. just because there's language to the contrary, doesn't make it so. legally, if it looks like a duck, and it quacks like a duck, it's a duck
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no, not really. If it comes in a package reading "robot-duck" and has manual telling you it's a robot, not a duck, then even if it looks like a duck and quacks - ity's still a robot.
The same way if the site has TOS, set of rules, basically any for of legal agreement you agree with when joining, as far as no part of the TOS is "unallowed clause" from the legal point of view, what you think this site is and how it works does not matter, what matters is what the legal agreement you agreed to says. You may think that "admin" is responsible for whatever happens to your items for example, but if TOS says he's not and the TOS itself is valid from legal point of view, it doesn't matter what you think, "admin" is not responsible and you should have known that from the start, because you agreed with TOS upon joining.
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responsibility for making their products safe is written in the law somewhere, thus you can sue them. Like I said - "unalowed clauses" are not legally binding. For example - murder is not allowed by the law. So even if we signed a contract saying I may murder you with no consequences - it is not legally binding and I will get arrested if I murder you. Same goes with writing anything like "we take no responsibility for stuff we produce if it kills or harm you" - the companies are obliged to test their stuff and make it meeting safety standards. But if you sign agreement with me that I take some of your stuff, do not have to return it and am not responsible for what happens with it - unless you can prove that I somehow tricked you into singing it, misrepresented it etc, unless this happens - the contract is legally binding and noone cares that "I saw that previous guy got twice as much from you and I thought I would get the same, that's why I signed". What matters is what's written. There are no laws forbiding giving your stuff to others.
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Let's be honest, Valve could make an official statement calling each and every one of its users dickheads, because they could also include a "more than half of our library is exclusive on our platform, and we control more than three quarters of the PC market; so where else would you get your stuff, huh?"
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Well you know, now they have 75% of PC market, but noone can be sure their monopoly will last forever. Atari used to be biggest player on console hardware market in th west one day. Nokia used to be the biggest cellphone producer. And so on and on ;)
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I hope so, because at this rate only a serious hit on their pockets could be the only thing that would force them to get their shit together and actually at least try to pretend to be customer-oriented.
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It's not Valve's fault that their users fall prey to scammers if they are stupid. If anything, Valve can be applauded for making sure more people don't fall for the same scam.
That said, site's admin (this Julian fellow) is a douche. I've heard that many other sites agreed to giving refunds, and have stopped accepting new items during the transition.
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Announcement reads like: "we finally found an excuse to scam you big time, cya suckers"
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The only gambling allowed on Steam is that run by Valve themselves (crates and shit).
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They have a few hundred million dollars to pay enough lawyers, judges, and maybe a few senators to reach a court decision stating it is not actually gambling.
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Wait, what?
Can someone tldr me what happened and who is scamming who?
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Short version:
- Couple of youtubers/streamers got caught and admitted to running a rigged CS:GO item gambling site.
- This caused a shitstorm large enough for Valve to actually take notice and do something.
- "Do something" in this case isn't the usual Valve-style half-measure - On their end they're making sure those gambling sites can no longer use the Steam Inventory APIs etc. that they rely on to collect wagered items and send out winnings.
- Gambling sites now go "welp, that's it for us. But oh yeah, we're keeping all the stuff we still have, so you can kiss those goodbye"
Edit: I may have gotten some of the finer details wrong, but bottom line is Valve is actually going after item gambling sites that rely on tradeable steam inventory items
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Eyyyy. That's awesome, kudos to valve.
But this allows the site to keep the items?They aren't bound by anything to give it back?
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It is not directly because some streamers had a gambling site, it is because ALL AGES are able to gamble with these site and thats not allowed :D
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Actually, it's less about kids and more about streamers having a gambling site and advertising it pretending they are only players, not owners.
Nobody really cared about the children - those sites exist at least for a year.
Valve had knowledge they exist, but they didn't really care.
If there wouldn't be owner/streamer scandal, I think all would proceed as usual.
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Oh you are wrong PsyKo, it is because some guys are sueing valve because they think valve is profiting from those gambling sites.. additionally all ages have access to gamble there and gambleling is not allowed for all ages (as far as I know).
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Whole suit sounds more like "I gambled as kid on illegal gambling sites and lost, Valve pay me back" and probably would be dismissed quite fast, but thanks to whole scandal CSGO gambling was able to get into CNN or other BBC, which means now it became mainstream, so they might check it properly, even if only to slap Valve on hands as example for others.
Valve might be ethically guilty, but legally suit had no merits since Valve doesn't do business outsite of Steam and they aren't responsible for what other people do with Steam API. Now, thanks to streamers/owners, suit will be able to go somewhere, because they actually named someone who is guilty of something...
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well, in the US at least, it wouldn't get dismissed quite fast; contracts with minors are voidable by the minor, meaning that the kids would need to be paid back. Valve might not have anything to do with the outside sites, but the kids' interactions with valve (i.e. their payments to valve) would be at issue.
Put simply, if a 6 year old buys a $1000 computer, and changes his/her mind, legally the company would have to take it back. But, the kid would have to be able to return the computer in the same condition; if the kid gives the computer to someone else, then they can't return it to the store, and can't get a refund.
However, if the kid bought the computer and the store gave it to someone else, then the store would still be on the hook
So the question is, when a minor transfers digital goods and is unable to give them back to valve, ordinarily valve would not be on the hook. But, if Valve facilitated and encouraged the transfer, then there's a possibility that the court could conclude that valve colluded, and they'd still be liable
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Good they got this stuff eventually I wonder how the scammers are gonna get around this one.
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Yikes! "You will not receive any kind of refunds, i am very sorry. "
This would make a fun lawsuit. Too bad that any recovery would be less than the cost of the action.
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What would you sue them for? You have no contract with them, when you sent them your items, you would have needed to check a box saying this is a gift. You don't have a leg to stand on.
I'm using you in the 3rd person by the way, not directly referring to you... lol
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I didn't use any of these services (or have any of the items) so my understanding of how it works might be a little off. While they might have been transferred as gift, there was a definite benefit the giver expected to receive (so it is not a true gift) that they did not get. Merely sending an item as a gift does not make it a gift. :)
Off the top of my head I'd also argue bailment, but meh, who knows.
Like I mentioned, I think a lawsuit would be interesting against the people who took these items and won't refund, and I'd say the chance of success would be somewhere around 30-60% ("unclean hands" comes to mind due to the illegal nature of gambling), but the cost to get a chance at a win would be more than someone just writing off their own bad decisions in using these services.
Just my 2 cents! Like I mentioned - I think it would be fun to watch a lawsuit...Not that it would ne necessarily successful.
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well, legal fees can be covered, depending on the jurisdiction and the circumstances
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kids won't be able to gamble $400 knives any more, so unfair :(
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Yup, all they can do is sell knife on Steam Market, buy keys and play Valve's Slot Machines TM...
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Slightly confused- people are upset about being denied refunds of items that they already gambled away? Or did they have steam items "stored" on these websites for some reason?
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How it works, more or less: you send items to site. Site confirms they have your items and hold them until you lose or request items along with wins back.
Sometimes you exchange items for "chips", then you use "chips" to gets items from site-"store".
This site said "all your items - both those you were going to use and those you won - are belong to us".
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I think I see. Thank you for clarifying.
Kinda hard to imagine anyone thinking that's a good idea, though...
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It's unfortunate that the items aren't being returned but hard to feel bad for people who thought it was a good idea to hand their items over to one person and then thought nothing bad would come of it.
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I read that the bot who has the Items got Tradebanned, so they cant give the items back. I am 100% against these sites, but it maybe isnt their fault if they dont refund you.
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Sad to see this shit all started from one kid who lost on lounge and started crying to his parents
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Exploiting vulnerable children for profit is also pretty sad :p
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Sad to see someone making a system trying to go around law which states that gambling is allowed for adults only. If these "gambling sites" followed law, aka verified their users if they are legally allowed to gamble, noone would have problem with them. But they decided to try bypassing the law, because kids gambling gave them bigger profits. They broke the law, they got what they deserved. You want to gamble? Go to legal casino, lottery, whatever ;p
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Well, in some places gambling is illegal altogether; and in those places where gambing is legal, generally some kind of licensing is involved
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Yawn... Where is my popcorn? I'd also like a can of soda...
It wasn't a matter of "if", but just about "when" it would've happened... Good riddance!
Too bad for those who actually lost items in the process, but can we really blame them?
I hope this means Steam support will be able to work on serious tickets, instead of losing their time with crying scammed kids...
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What is API? What about big name like vp, dota2trade etc. They will get banned to?
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Im googling for api, so just going to 2nd question
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API is a programming thing. Basically it allows you to use someone else's software, as a passthrough. The API allows 3rd party sites to easily integrate steam username/login/trading functionality
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In a way, users gambled on the legitimacy of such sites ... and lost. I have little sympathy in this particular case.
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I didn't even know gambling Steam items was a thing until just now. :D But I'm glad they are being shutdown, seems really shady.
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I lost my major job contracts, nobody will order those shiny steam bots now ;_;.
RIP easy $$$.
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I supposed that thanks to ASF's popularity you were getting a lot of offers to create shady gambling bots :P
Tell us any anecdote!
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Anecdote for today:
- Did you know that ASF is a frankenstein project which is a result of creating and reusing over a thousand of code lines from various projects other people have paid for?
You could say that ASF was funded by shady gambling owners :3.
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I thought ASF's code was part of Archibot project to conquer the world. Do you mean Archibot was funded too by gambling site owners? That's interesting!
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Kind of. Indeed ASF comes from ArchiBoT's code, but many parts of ArchiBoT are parts of various different projects I work on :3.
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Only a thousand? I was expecting way more than that.
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Time to watch the skin market tank to pennies. maybe I should actually play cs:go finally...
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I used to play CS back in the old 1.5 and 1.6 days. Bought CS:GO a few sales ago, but the community is so obnoxious there's no fun involved anymore. I've spent a few hours playing for the sake of the random drops lol.
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if I understand correctly, a bunch of users gave their stuff into a lottery system... now the lottery system has been shut down and instead of refunding the items, the site creator has decided to keep the items.....
That sounds kind of underhanded in all honesty, but that is the general nature of trusting people on the internet,, occasionally they'll do messed up stuff..
depending upon the price of the item given, it very well could be considered felon theft, depending upon the jurisdiction you live in and how they view digital goods... Although depending upon where the site creator/admit lives even if your jurisdiction decides the act of keeping it was a felony, you still might not be able to do anything..
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not really - in order to hide and act as normal sirtes not linked to gambling these sites had TOS where they clearly stated that they take no responsibility over any items transferred to them etc. You were basically agreeing to give them item, there was nothing about them giving you anything. Ofc if you won they would give you stuff, but there was nothing like that mentioned in TOS. By registering you accepted TOS, thus you sending items to them cannot be considered a theft, as you agreed that they take no responsibility and may never return them. You may have thought that they are obliged to give you anything back but what matters is not what you thing, but what rules you agreed upon (even if you didn't read them).
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A TOS agreement is only as valid as your local laws.. You could put in a TOS agreement that you own the users immortal soul, but no court anywhere in the world would actually honor that part of it.
I never signed up for any gambling sites, wasn't really interested in CS:go items enough to care... The only site I sign up too for items is Tremor games, which require me to put no money out,,, the only thing I have to do is watch some videos and visit some websites..
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Yes. But most of local laws do not forbid you to give other people your stuff for free ;) So if you agree to give them stuf for free by accepting their TOS - your loss ;p
I also didn't do any Steam Gambling, so I didn't lose anything - I'm just stating that all the people crying that there lost their items and that it's illegal have no case - their agreed to give their items for free, and giving something to someone for free is not against the law ;)
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but they gave the items in anticipation of an event or events taking place which never took place. It's the same as someone doing a Gofundme page because they claim to have cancer.. It later comes out they never had cancer but wanted the money to go on a trip to Disney World.
Even though the people gave their money willingly they were deceived into the outcome of them giving their money. This is one of those issues which could go either way, really depends on what type of consumer laws you have in your nation... Also obviously the nation the person who is keeping the items lives in.. If he lives somewhere that has really strong consumer protection laws, I could very well see him getting in some serious trouble.. if he resides in some places that doesn't care about consumer laws, rife with piracy and copyright theft, I don't think anything will happen..
Ultimately if the sites are being shut down the items which still exist should be refunded to the people who put in.. Otherwise it seems under handed and shady.. Then again the whole idea of CS:go Gambling seems shady in and of itself..
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like I said - what you anticipate doesn't mean sh*t, what matters is what you agree on and if what you agree on is allowed by law. And no - your example of cancer fund is not the same, because it is against the law and it's called charity fraud.
As for consumer protection laws - problem is we're talking digital items here, things of no actual monetary value from the legal point of view - most of the laws you are mentioning are old, written down in era of physical goods, in many aspects current law fail to follow technology quick enough - thus any law changes regarding digital goods and such things are still in the works. It's also not only the case of consumer protection - the fact that they were able to open "gambling" buissness in the first place more opften than not is because of the fact they were dealing with digital items and laws are old and not covering them yet. If they opened a site where you would be able to bet actual money or physical items of defined monetary value, they would have been considered gambling from the very first place and would be shut down for allowing minors in or not paying gambling-related taxes. but they were not considered gambling by definition (will have to see now, cause only now actual US law that may affect it is going to happen with class action lawsuit). And the same problem may happen regarding consumer protection laws. These laws may not apply to digital items of no actual defined monetary value.
Of course, from moral or ethical point of view sites should refund everything to everyone. But we are talking about legal point of view here. And it wouldn't be the first nor the last time in history when someone does something unethical, but it still being ok with the law.
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as I said, some jurisdictions view digital goods the same as physical goods... some don't... some haven't decided yet. Ultimately it doesn't matter, sucks for the people who got ripped off.. Shame they have no legal recourse or avenue in all likelyhood.. Guess they should use that as a wake up call about who you trust..
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They shouldn't use this kind of sites in first place! Not even sorry for them!
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http://steamcommunity.com/groups/doubletf#announcements/detail/934878624738726977
With Valve shutting down it's API for gambling sites, this was inevitable.
(I hope this isn't calling out)
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