Should you be able to fly flags in footbal matches?
I actually very much agree with the idea and am all for freedom of speech/support for a legitimate cause etc...but voted NO because I feel it could cause undue tension and potential violence at a completely separate entertainment event which should be avoided.
Of course I think fining the club and arresting people is a joke as it is against what I just said.
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It's not actually uncommon in the UK during certain events for some local councils to ban the flying of flags in certain places due to the potential for trouble.
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Can you provide sources for that?
And also it's stupid as fuck.
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I disagree, a reason for not being able to fly a flag may be stupid but in the interest of keeping the public safe from violence/inciting riots I don't think it is stupid to not allow certain imagery (be it a flag or other things). A lot of people are going to claim the "freedom of speech" route however, freedom of speech does not protect you if there is reasonable belief that the intent was to cause illegal behavior (violence).
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How were these flags in particular intended to cause violence. When I assume the amount of supporters that flew to Glasgow is ridiculous and even if the flags weren't there, they'd be in Glasgow anyways, that's like 150% of stabbing chances anyways.
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No-ones saying the flags are intended to cause violence but they can certainly act as a trigger when you get a bunch of emotional and potentially drunk/drugged of people who are adversarial by the very nature of supporting oppossing teams in one place.
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It isn't any flag in particular. Flags are designed to be symbolize particular groups of people. If people intentionally brought a symbol intended to incite violence it isn't covered by freedom of speech. This is the same general reason swastikas tend to not be covered by freedom of speech, even though the display itself isn't illegal, the majority of the time it is displayed the person or persons in question are attempting to incite violence against themselves or lawlessness which is, for obvious reasons, not legal.
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But, we're talking about intentions here. You cannot judge an action based on its intentions, which are nothing but supossitions btw.
Swastikas are forbidden from being displayed (where they are) because in the west they are associated with Nazism. However in the east they are not and they are a common motif in Bhuddist(?) decorations
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Actually quite a few laws and charges are based on intentions the difficulty is proving what somebody intended to do. If you go out and intentionally commit murder it is a far more serious offense than getting home, finding somebody sleeping with your spouse and killing them. One is a charge that includes that you intentionally went out with murder in mind.
Your second bit is a good point, context is important to judge intentions. Are you implying they are not at least somewhat aware that Israel and Palestine are not on good terms and that the club and its fans were either from Israel or support the country? Suppose they (the Israelis) associate the flag (wrongly or not) as both a show of support and an endorsement of terrorism they may or may not have experienced. Whether it was meant as a "political statement" or just a show of support isn't what is important. What is important is what they expected or wanted to happen when they flew the flag. I doubt they were aiming for actual discussion as flying a flag doesn't bring anything new to a conversation.
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I was thinking more on a Totall Recall (?) kind of judging intentions vibe. Thoughtcrimes.
I know that there's a difference between e.g. killing someone in purpose and losing control of a vehicle and running over a person.
I am not implying they are not aware of that. I know they did, but what I think the purpose of this action was is to bring the situation into the spotlight by taking advantage of one of the most followed sports in the world (if not the most)
As you doubt they were not aiming for actual discussion (which I concur by the way) I think they weren't aiming for an open confrontation either, but as I said, to appear in the news and gain attention for that particular cause.
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Generally when intent is included in a crime there is a large amount of evidence that they wanted the outcome they received. I would say less thoughtcrimes and more something like Minority Report (in that they know the exact motivation behind the crime).
I apologize if that appeared high horsed, I didn't mean to talk down to you, just giving an example of intent being important.
They could have been more aware of when to make that statement, maybe flown the flag at a different game. I believe they did intend to upset the Israeli fans at the stadium and while that doesn't excuse violence it could show intent as to why they flew it at that particular game.
Flying a flag in support of Palestine would likely have made news in any game but by creating outrage at the response from this game they generate more attention which, while not particularly a bad cause, is a cause people feel rather strongly about, especially when it directly affects them.
The ability to control when and what political statements are correct and allowed isn't a power regulatory bodies should have but instead an all or nothing approach which I believe should be addressed by FIFA (if it hasn't already or actually applied properly if they have).
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I don't have any specifically other than my living there for 30 years.
EDIT: Not specifically related to sports but here's a letter complaining about a local council banning the flying of St. George's flag to show the concept isn't entirely unfounded. The letter isn't dated but this was sometime in 2013.
EDIT 2: A police departments statement earlier this year that it isn't an offence. A statement wouldn't have been needed if it hadn't been an issue previously.
EDIT: Again, not sport related but banning of certain flags at this years Eurovision
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The first letter is a perfect example of political overcorrectness. And that comes from a guy that will not ever display a flag of their country because he thinks it's stupid as fuck. But claiming that doing so alienates other communities is dumbfounded.
The second case is the police adressing rumours.
The third one is the prohibition of displaying regional or local flags. Country flags are allowed. Palestine is a country.
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As far as the third goes England, Scotland, Wales and Northern Ireland are all countries.
As far as OPs case goes Celtic knew exactly what they were doing wasn't allowed as they've been fined for exactly the same thing before. I have no interest in football but anyone with even half a brain could work out that regardless of the Israeli teams views on Palestine displaying those flags would lead to problems.
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Yeah, they are, don't take me wrong. What I wanted to say it's that they are not countries as far as eurovision is concerned. I mean, that they all participate under the UK flag, I worded it poorly.
I hope it didn't come out as offensive.
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I think you're mistaking a country with a region filled with backward antisemites.
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I'm sorry but 136 UN countries and wikipedia disagree with you
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/State_of_Palestine
Palestine is a country.
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https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/International_recognition_of_the_State_of_Palestine#/media/File:Palestine_recognition_only.svg
Yet no first-world, straight thinking, country has. You know, the part of the world that has had a proper education.
I had to add 'straight thinking' because of Sweden. But that's a rant for another day.
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I am sorry but Iceland, Taiwan, Russia, Czech Republic, Poland, South Africa, Malta, Cyprus, Seychelles, Chile, Turkey, most of the CIS countries and so on and so forth are not parf of the first world?
What astonishing things one learns discussing here on SG, who would've known.
Not to mention that you dismiss Sweden just because it doesn't fit your bill, but whatever. If you wanna keep being delusional (and a bigot) go ahead.
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At least take the time to check whatever is considered a second world country before trying to attack me.
But no point in arguing with a SJW.
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ahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahahaha
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South Africa? Turkey? That's a stretch, isn't it? Their per capita incomes are lower than Brazil's, and I know from daily experience this is far from the definition of "first world"...
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Ever sat behind some wanker waving a giant flag when you've paid for a seat at an event?
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Mostly if you're in the giant flag zone is because you're part of it. & they are not on display for the whole match.
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I voted no for one simple reason, a football match or any other sport event for that matter is not the place for political debate.
you can support whoever you want or whatever cause you wish, but do it on the right places
99.9% of the people attending a sporting event are there just for that to enjoy some sports, not to appreciate or discuss your political persuasion.
of course this is just my opinion and you are free to believe otherwise.
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I'm not into politics or sports, so yeah, it makes sense and I agree.
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Flagpoles are forbidden.
What do you want, teams playing in empty stadiums? Cybersports (It's an even stupider word than e-sports, and I thought that wasn't possible) are played in booths so that the players don't get an unfair advantage by listening to the casters or looking at the broadcast stream.
Because in sports you have all the information available to you in the field. In computer games you do not.
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I voted no because all flags are pointless pieces of cloth and they have no practical value.
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Shitty nazis. Don't give a damn about the police. They were flags, not political banners. Still, congratulations to Hapoel for winning Olympiakos. :B
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Dude casuals fight each other just for supporting a different team from one another it's dumb as fuck I've been stuck a few times because people are going ape-shit it's tough to control even if someone does something in goodwill the sheer amount of hate, it's like if internet RAGE came to life just for a different coloured shirt.
But yeah arresting people for it and fining is fked the club can't control every person and they were showing support at a game as a SUPPORTER lol Fuck. sorry
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When I was a kid I was almost killed for wearing a football shirt. I went to a stadium once to see a game.
Will most likely never do it again because of violent criminals.
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I find it hard to believe that you, as a kid were targeted by a bunch of hooligans. So I was asking for a bit more of elaboration on your side of the story because I think there's more to it.
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I'm guessing you know very little about football in Europe, Turkey, or South America.
There are some fucking crazies who will beat up or kill a supporter of a rival team for no other reason than that they support a rival team
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Dingbat. I know quite enough about football. I've attended football matches in 5 different European countries and in leagues ranging from kiddos, to amateur adults, to Champions League.
and I've seen people stone buses, burn stadiums, clash in free-for-all melées and so on and so forth, in fact not so long ago a guy was killed near my workplace in a football brawl
I still find it hard to believe that he, as a kid, was targeted by a bunch of hooligans. I just thought that there was more to his story.
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Atoms? I blame the atoms! They make up everything.
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Weren't those flags all over and thus a political statement? And political statements are forbidden in stadiums, this isn't a new or unique event at all and it isn't exclusive to Palestine / Israel. I remember a similar situation when "Say No To Racism. Say Yes To Kosovo" was shown.
And honestly, I agree with that regulation. Sports are about sports. It's not like people would have no other and better opportunities to demonstrate. If they let one pass, everyone will want to (ab)use the opportunity that the huge platform of international football offers. And why should that be in the interest of football?
No idea about the Scottish police. Unlikely that anyone gets arrested just for carrying a flag. Usually all that follows are UEFA fees against the host.
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Totally agree. Even though I personally have zero interest in sports, it should remain for the entertainment, not for political stuff. If I want to watch some political stuff I'd watch something else then a football match...
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Why are political statements forbidden in Stadiums. Isn't Israel teams playing the European Champions League a political statement? Isn't recognizing Gibraltar as a nation so that they can field a football team a political statement? Isn't awarding the Eurocup or the World Cup to one country or another a political statement? Isn't Barcelona supporters flying independentist flags a political statement?
So, let's not be naïve and pretend that footie is void of politics at all. Sports are about what you want them to be.
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No, they're not political statements. And no, no sport is completely void of politics (nothing really is). However it would be best if those things stay seperated as much as possible. Sports is for entertainment, not politics.
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I think they are. I'd even say I'm certain they are. But I guess it's a matter of perspective.
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Agreed. Letting a recognized nation participate in peaceful sports is absolutely the same, as opening the door to all kind of political statements in stadiums. With the result that sooner or later the situation would escalate, when people would begin to display more and more controversial statements. And additional controversy and potential for conflicts is just what sports need.
You are right, I have no idea how I could have been so blind. I indeed am the naive person here!
/sarcasm (just in case)
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I mean, your whole argument is a slippery slope fallacy, but whatever. Nothing states that letting this people peacefully show their support for Palestine is going to cause conflicts.
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And I mean that you have absolutely no idea what you are talking about. Your statement about the Scottish police never made sense. It was the UEFA and not the FIFA. You don't understand that allowing one political statement results in opening the door for others. And you don't understand why controversies in stadiums are a bad idea. Well done, but whatever.
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I understand everything. My statement regarding Scottish police comes from here http://www.dailyrecord.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/celtic-face-yet-another-uefa-8650376
Police Scotland this week urged fans not to make a statement in the first-leg playoff– and warned them they faced being arrested.
mfw
When did I say it was the FIFA?
Also no it doesn't, it's like saying that allowing homosexuals to marry will then allow people to marry objects or animals. It's fucking stupid.
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the threat of arrest is because in the United Kingdom in particular, football hooliganism is a major issue. The potential for arrest is less about politics and more about the football violence that is unfortunately quite common there.
Flying the flag is most definitely not intended as a peaceful act of solidarity or politics, it's specifically about inciting violence, about trying to pick a fight. And that's what the police are trying to prevent
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This is what I assumed. I thought it was common knowledge that many sports fans in the UK apparently can't be trusted not to riot at the drop of a hat.
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What I said somewhere else on the thread. Then you're judging and condemning people based on their supposed intentions (were those true or not) and you cannot do that.
and, I'll say it again, if you're in Glasgow chances are you were gonna get shanked anyways.
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I guess I can see why they rather not have flags flying (other then those of the teams) during matches, since it might offend people. But to go ahead and fine the club and arrest people goes a bit too far (actually, not a bit, a lot)...
EDIT: This comment pretty much nails it.
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Yeah, how about we divide politics and football huh? THAT WOULD BE NICE!
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None of this is new for us. There will be another fine from UEFA and a lot of talk in the Scottish press about the horrible, disgraceful Celtic fans for a week or two until they move on to the next scandal.
Incidentally, Police Scotland have announced that they do not believe that the display was illegal and there will be no arrests.
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Oh nice, I read on the Daily something that they were considering arresting people. Glad that's not the case.
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Palestine is oppressed. lol
And let me guess, Hamas is not a terrorist organisation.
"Here neonazi flags are shown every Champions League match and no one said anything yet."
Yeah, if a 25,000 EUR fine is nothing
http://www.goal.com/en/news/2898/euro-2012/2012/06/25/3199986/uefa-fines-german-fa-25000-over-supporters-neo-nazi-banner
BTW, I voted yes, freedom of speech and expression is more important than hurt feelings. Unfortunately, this is not the case in the UK, where you can get arrested for wearing an offensive t-shirt.
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Who talked about Germany? I did not.
Palestine is opressed, Hamas is a political party with an armed branch who fight for liberating Palestinian territory and retaliate Israeli attacks.
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Noone said you're talking about Germany, but you mentioned the neonazi flag - there's the reaction to it.
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unfortunately, this is a vast oversimplification. Hamas is a political party and a charitable organization, and a paramilitary unit and a terrorist organization all in one. They're not just fighting for liberating palestinian territory, but also to eradicate the country of israel of course, some would argue that all of israel is illegal occupation. that's a much more complicated discussion.
Hamas' military/terrorist part is as much about retaliation as instigation.
To be clear, it's too simple to say they're terrorists, but it's also too simple to say they're freedom fighters.
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I am of the opinion that Israel is illegally ocuppying territory previously inhabited by Palestinians, and have forced the latter out of their homes.
That's textbook invasion.
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I don't disagree, but, are you referring to just the parts of israel deemed illegally occupied by the U.N. (or some other organization) or are you referring to all of Israel?
Because those are two very separate discussions. (as far as Hamas is concerned, it's definitely the latter)
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Both, I'd settle for a peaceful integration of both countries nd/or restitution of reciently occupied Palestinian soil (post post WW2 settlings) and acess for Palestinians to their worship places . But if Israel wasn't recognized as a state anymore I wouldn't mind either.
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speaking realistically, a peaceful integration is highly unlikely.
Now for israel to no longer be recognized as a state, they'd have to lose, and it's not unreasonable to think that then the shoe will be on the other foot, with the former israelis being oppressed, and being barred from their places of worship (as has happened in the past).
Restitution is a tricky concept, and while I'm not against it, I don't think the palestians generally will accept it. If they do, that'd be great.
And I do agree with the access to their worship places. My understanding is that, as a general rule, access is only limited if/when there's a good indicator that there will be unrest/violence BUT that this is construed in the broadest possible sense (i.e. restriction occurs much too often).
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It's a "political party", that launched an attack against Fatah, another palestinian organization in Gaza, killing more than one hundred civilians and two UN members.
It's a "political party" that got caught in youtube lining more than a dozen civilians and killing them without a trial for opposing them (the official excuse was they were zionist agents)
It's a "political party" that have publicy said that getting Palestinian independence is only a secondary aim, as the first one is completely erase the country of Israel (although it has been more than a decade since they said that)
Their foundational charter mentions "death for the sake of Allah is most sublime belief"
During their last battle with Israel (which started when Hamas started raining missiles to Israel), Hamas used hospital as their bases, knowing that if Israel attacked them, they could cry to the West how Israel is attacking hospitals, and they moved though Gaza using ambulances. Both acts are against the Geneva Conventions
If Hamas didn't appear, Israel and the palestinians would have sooner or later made peace, as it almost happened with Yasser Arafat. Now the two palestinians organizations are competing at who is refusing more to start peace talks.
So stop acting as if they are Gandhi's followers.
Now, I am going to rephrase your sentence.
"The sunni people are opressed, Islamic State is a political party with an armed branch who fight for liberating iraqui-sunni territory and retaliate shia attacks"
Reality is not so white and black. (Islamic State is pure black, though).
"One person terrorist is another person's freedom Fighter"
Gerald Seymour in his 1975 book Harry's Game
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lol, the famous hamas missiles that killed like 20 people in 8 years. pretty much like the cast lead operation. much white phosphorus, such human rights. because who cares about some hundreds of dead arab goy' if vy are zy peopl chozn by yahweh himself right? you just kidding right? pls? ...
hamas do exist because of the bloodthirsty ziogiudaic leaders then and the modern governments now, succeeding one after another, from the fall of the ottoman empire to now, all with the same goal, the conquer of the palestinian and the racial and ethnic substitution of those who inhabit it, with any means necessary. theyr most powerful weapon are always the same, manipulation of fact and history
deceipt and hypocrisy
the only peace the palestine people can have is theyr land being given back from those who have taken it. this doesn't make any sense. they are always being nomad people, from ancient time through the diaspora, and now they want middle est all for them. its like if the gypsy people one day wake and decide to take a country for theyr own outta nowhere. like wtf. stop acting as if they are saint among men and eternal victic of the current antisemitic bad guy. read the soncino talmud. read an history book. know the root of the evil they get, understand the reason of theyr stereotype and theyr persecution. this is an advice and not a critic.
about the is, they were not always black. those that the usa are currently bombing ( surprisingly without any casualties between civillians or mistakenly taking down some random place, lol...) were not much time ago the same that have been armed as anti ghaddafi force. the same that russia is bombing in syria being armed as anti assad forces. world can be black or white. its all about perspective.
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Yeah the US is the king of giving military training and weapons to insurgents here and there and then things getting out of hand soon. 9/11, the Islamic State and so on is a direct consecuence of traning paramilitary forces to perform terrrorist attacks towards the late USSR, but surprise, it backfired.
and don't try to argue against Israel supporters. Their goverment pays people to defend their war crimes on the internet.
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+1 exactly. howr mighty freedom bringers.
glad to see someone who's brain isn't a brainwashed heap fo trash
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That's a Jewish propaganda site. C'mon. Israel has one of the most powerful propaganda machines on the world. Hasbará and all that, they even grant grants to college students for defending their country online.
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I know. One side's propaganda site showing the other side's propaganda.
let me just say, both sides have powerful propaganda machines. Israel and Palestine have pretty much been at war with each other since the 1940's, if not earlier. During "peace" times, they've still been at war. Propaganda / public opinion is just another front.
But I find it very interesting that you refer to it as a "Jewish" propaganda site, and not an "Israeli" propaganda site.
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I am sorry, I have nothing against Judaism, nor Jews (well, I don't like very much the ones that lock their women at home and when they let them go out they have to walk like X number of paces behind thme or something) but apart from that everyone can practice any religion and hold any kind of beliefs they want.
I simple (and seemingly mistakenly, I apologize) identified the site as something that was let's say Zionist propaganda, not something that came directly from the State of Israel.
I am not antisemite at the very least, and I mean it. I couldn't care less about what other people do with their private lives as long as some standards are met (I mean, if your religion tells you to stab virgin girls and drink their blood I will take issue with it, , just as a silly example) So don't try to spin that on me, please.
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not at all. just thought I'd point it out to you. not all jews are israeli, not all israeli are jews. Same with zionism.
Personally, I have the same attitude, I don't care what someone does, as long as they're not harming anyone else.
I have no idea about the site, it was the first place I could find that video. I believe both sides have valid points/arguments, but that both sides do bad acts. If you think rationally, it's very easy to see why each side behaves the way it does.
Israel's perspective: they attacked us, so we need to take security precautions. They keep attacking us, so we need to take more security precautions
Palestine's perspective: they attacked us, we need to fight back. They're oppressing us even more, if we don't attack back, it'll keep getting worse
Israel: palestinians don't want peace. They're just stalling for the next attack. They want to wipe us out
Palestine: israel doesn't want peace. They're just stalling until they take more. They want to wipe us out
I'd say most isrealis and most palestinians want peace, but that most israelis don't think palestinians want peace and that most palestinians don't think israelis want peace
So the problem is, how can you negotiate for peace if you don't think the other side actually wants peace, but is merely stalling and getting ready for the next attack? How can you give a concession, if you think the other side isn't serious, won't honor their agreement, and will try to force more concessions later?
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Oh, I must've misunderstood the tone of your post then, sorry. I might have a smallish prosecution complex :-p
I understand what you mean, and I acknowledge that it's a very difficult situation to resolve for reasons amongst which are those you described.
I must concede too, that both sides are both in the wrong and in the right at the same time. I just think that Palestine needs more the support, understanding and help of the international community than Israel does, I mean you just have to compare both countries. So that's why I slightly lean towards supporting them.
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https://www.rt.com/news/353490-idf-demolishes-palestinian-homes/
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0MWiPhRylGg
https://www.rt.com/news/355166-palestine-google-maps-israel-protest/
http://sputniknews.com/middleeast/20151229/1032470597/israel-sprays-poison-gaza-crops.html
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WYtBqCP5Koo
if you want to play this game at least bring something that doens't sound like zionsaveusall.com
and i never said hamas is a group of benevolent peace preachers either... theyr are not. you gotta realize who the real victims are here (that would be palestine civillians), and who the major evil is (hint: is not hamas).
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I never said they were Ghandi's followers (not to mention that there's a whole array of issues relating to Ghandi, but that's food for another day)
are you, however, seriously trying to compare the military capacity of Israel (has nukes, obligatory militart service, the Mossad, US support etc etc) with Palestine?
Israel has been bombing civil infraestructure for years, and is driving palestinians outside of their own territoy, expanding slowly.
I would try to erase a country too, if tomorrow the UK said that the city I live in and the surrounding areas are now Khmer Rouge and they start bombarding schools. I mean Israel has no reason to exist as a country if it weren't for the veiled interests on desestabilizing the Middle East, but whatever.
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well, let's ignore cause and effect, and whatever happened 70 years ago and 50 years ago, and get to the more practical aspect:
Based on today, what's a reasonable solution? like it or not, there's 8 million people living in Israel, many of whom were born there and grew up there. Can't exactly send them all away, can we?
note: I'm of the opinion that both sides are wrong, to some extent, and that both sides have some legitimate grievances/concerns. The question IMO, isn't "who's right and who's wrong", but "how do we move forward from here"
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You are changing topics here. You talked about Hamas, I talked about Hamas. I mentioned Hamas killing UN personnel, exterminating other palestinian political parties or killing palestinian civilians, and being basically THE obstacle between peace between israelis and palestinians, and you conveniently didn't even mention that.
And yeah, obviosly Israel has the power to completely exterminate every single palestinian. They won't ever do that, though.
Can you truly say if Hamas had that power, they wouldn't do that?
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The obstacle in both sides is beliving that they are victims and the others no.
And having no real empathy for the others sides.
One time i hoped the peace with Rabin but...
One day one great leader will rise
Only the strongest can give peace.
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Agreed. I hope both sides eventually will reach peace. It will be when they love both their children and their enemies' children
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The concept of fining a club or even a federation is completely idiotic, every other aspect of this topic notwithstanding.
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I wouldn't mind so much about this kind of crap from UEFA if there was at least some element of consistency.
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That's the hilarious part. Moreover, from which moral ground is uefa trying to enforce shit? ROFL, it's one of the most corrupt organizations of the world, maybe after fifa and the IOC.
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UEFA obviously doesn't have enough moral integrity to judge anybody else without looking like an ass but I'm not sure this is entirely about morals. UEFA has responsibilities towards crowd safety and political statements inside grounds can cause riots - remember the drone that carried the 'greater Albania' flag into the Serbia vs Albania game? There are good arguments for keeping politics out of football, but if you are going to have those rules then they have to be enforced evenly or else it just looks like the people in charge are taking sides.
As it stands the perception amongst many is that UEFA is often quite hit and miss when it comes to dealing with chanting and flag waving from far right groups (sometimes it punishes teams and sometimes it doesn't, sometimes it hands out quite small fines and sometimes it fines both the aggressors and the victims) but other kinds of incidents are always punished harshly. And for some reason Nicklas Bendtner wearing sponsored underpants got dealt with more harshly than many neo-nazi incidents (€100k fine for Bendtner vs €25k fine for the German FA, etc).
I don't know if what Celtic fans did was really a genuine display of support for the oppressed, an attempt to provoke the opposition fans or some kind of protest against the footballing authorities - but they have been in enough trouble over sectarian problems that they must have known what was going to happen next. But this is just going to get brought up the next time Tottenham play away in Europe and their fans face anti-semetism - Partizan Belgrade got a partial stadium closure once, another time Lazio and Tottenham both got fined, but mostly UEFA just shrug their shoulders...
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Agreed, it's hilariously the somewhat biased approach UEFA takes when addressing this kind of things. I mean either you forbid all political statements (which I do not agree with in the first place) and enforce it, you don't forbid political statements or you keep doing what UEFA is doing and look like a big ass hypocrite.
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I understand what you are saying and I agree with much of it and certainly don't want to appear disagreeable, but as a football fan who has attended many matches the last thing I'd call UEFA is 'hilarious' - it's a dangerous shambles that should have principles but abandons them whenever money or power are involved, incompetent and greedy rather than 'biased'.
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Yeah, they have a great sense for such topics. Their #BILDnotWelcome campaign against BILD and Diekmann was brilliant, for example.
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That's awesome, teams that were already proactively supporting refugees basically said "FU" to the establisment because it was just a political move for them.I can't even imagine any national sports club here in the US offering support, politically expedient or otherwise.
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That's probably one benefit of most German sports teams being real public clubs and not privately owned companies, like almost everywhere else. ;)
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I will always have a soft spot for them in my heart.
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It's against UEFA rules, and no this doesn't make them nazis mr overreaction.
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UEFA are a bunch of crooked whitewashed tombs. They don't care about anything but making money.
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welcome to modern football. and you know the relationship between sports, politics and crime is an interesting one, what with it being used by unsavoury elements either to launder money or whitewhite reputations in a number of countries across the world, sometimes the hypocrisy of trying to deny that sports and politics do often intersect is ridiculous.
Nevertheless did they really think there would be no backlash for displaying such flags-supporters never think about the effect such things will actually have on their clubs it seems, just to rile up another team their football club happens to be playing on that night. And there is a potential use in denying blatant political symbols that might incite crowd violence, so you have really do have to think about all parties involved when considering a case like this
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I know, everyone is like. Keep sports pure, don't mix sports and football. Professional sports is not about the sport anymore, but the money. and money involves politics. With professional sports I mean, professional football at least, because it's a fucking shitshow.
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I mean sadly thats all it is ...
Anyone who pay even basic attention to the football nowadays can realise what that sport has turned into ....
Its money making and money laundring machine for a group of ppl , who sadly are above the law as it stands ...
UEFA is one of the most corrupt organizations in existance , and no one bats an eye about that ...
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As I have read UEFA forbids political expressions in football, I do not agree with limiting freedom of expression, but raising Palestinian flags against the Hapoel Beer Sheva (which is an Israeli team) is certainly provocative because it could lead to confrontation in the public, like it never happened before in football, so in this case I must partially agree with them. BTW do not be amazed that some people will be angry towards you, there is war between Israel and Palestine so any opinion will offend one of the sides.
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This has nothing to do with FIFA, it's UEFA rules that forbid waving flags during European matches. As an Israeli citizen it's fine by me if they wave flags of Palestine, Syria or any other nation that they want, it's just against the rules of UEFA.
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Lapsus clavis, sorry. The second time I meant to write uefa too.
I am glad that you are personally okay with people displaying flags, it speaks very highly of you. and the thing is that I neither agree with this uefa ruling, nor think they have any kind of moral authority to tell people what to do.
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not surprised. when the palestinian soccer player were shoot in the legs by israeli force for no reason not a single word came from uefa about this. also some mouths ago a soccer player and his clab have being fined for a pro putin t shirt. is what one would expect from a diverted organization such as uefa.
is not about showing a flag. is WHICH flag you show that can bring you trouble.
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also, about the sport being free from politic and ideology... today during the olimpyad there were the ukraine rythmic gymnast team doing a performance resembling an ukrain-colored butterfly being demolished by a girl wearing white blu and red color... this while in the background the anti russia euro contest winner song "1944" was playing. the italian commentors were like "wow such patriottic" "such courage..." i almost fell of the chair for laughing
in the maintime the guy that refused to shake is hand to the israeli opponent has being sent home, while the good thinkers were calling him nazi, antisemite, antiisrael, hey remember the shoah...
the few time i turn on the tv i always end up regretting of doing so
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Watching TV , or almost any form of news and media is a bad idea nowadays ....
Almost never does the news dig up into the reasoning as to WHY someone did something ... and just condemn ppl for the sake of it , and cause that will get them some views ...
Like i am not even kidding here , the last time i watched the News on TV , a Fox based channel was Quoting a FACEBOOk post about a news article ... a FACEBOOK POST .
I dont have a TV subsctibtion for ~ 8 months now ...
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thats the way to go. i only watch natural documentaries here and there, probably the only things that can be seen whitout staying in a bshit alert state. with everything else i' m always carefull and critic, expecially when old granny is around.
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like in these days a new random child has been put under the world's highlights. the anti-russia and anti-assad feeling need to grow in order to force them to a truce. the "moderate rebels" are losing aleppo for good and things need to be reorganized
they just do anything to bring more water to theyr windmill
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So the Olympics sucks too. You cannot even bring your comany logo into the stadium.
A rule, once made, should be followed. Weaving a flag is just against the rules of UEFA, nothing else. If you don't agree with that rule, it's your right not to watch it (and the right of the club not to enter the competition). The club you mentioned joined the match, so they have to play by the rules. It's that simple, it has nothing to do with "being nazis".
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I'll fly one, then... let the blacklisting begin!
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I'll blacklist you if you want, sigma :3
Joking just in case some uptight person reads it
<3 <3
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Why would you get blacklisted for that ?
Someone must be mentally challanged to do that , tho based on votes there are at least 110 and counting of them among us so far ...
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I've gotten like 10 so far, and it's not like my usual topic where it comes a point I get fed up and start acting all smug and confrontative. I think I was being pretty civil in this one.
But skaters gonna skate skate skate I guess.
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I mean thats fucking ridiculous tbh ... i have a short fuse and i tend to blow up really fast ... but even i cannot get trigered by a topic like that .
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Right? I mean who dares to have opinions in this day and age.
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Why would you get blacklisted for that ?
Because antisemitism is still a thing...
Someone must be mentally challanged to do that , tho based on votes there are at least 110 and counting of them among us so far
I voted for the ban, anything that football supporters can bring to the stadium is a potential weapon. Banners and flags are allowed here in Brazil, but poles, bamboo sticks and everything else that could be used to fly them are not anymore. I was a football fan once, but I'm more of a skeptic these days... FIFA corruption, match fixing, betting mafias... not much of a football issue, rather than a universal competitive sports issue, sadly...
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Thank you for being on my WL Sigma! ^^
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politics and religion have no place in a football stadium imo, sadly in Glasgow this doesnt apply.
btw well played Bhoys 5-2 win to take to the 2nd leg in Iarael :)
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I would say politics has no place in sports, or Steamgifts. Sectarian violence is reason enough to ban flags at Celtic matches. The huns would be there with the nazi flags flying otherwise.
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I'm discussing football. Not politics. It's not my problem that most of the issues in the current world are linked in one way or another, to politics.
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celtic fans showed one more time how mentally challenged they are
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My question: how many of them continued the "protest" outside of the game? Marched on parliament or at the very least started a petition? Because like other people have said, a sporting event (especially one with limited world audience) is a useless place to make a political statement.
My experience of Scottish football growing up was basically a bunch of fans looking for a reason to start trouble. This sounds like exactly the same thing. "What can we do that gives us an excuse to kick off?" No pun intended.
On the other hand, if the people waving the flags have donated to the cause or volunteered to go and help then I'll retract my statement.
Also, flags block people's view of the actual game. Screw them :)
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Nazi flags are no joke tbh ....
However supporting a Nation in crisis , and waving their flag should be encouraged ... not making ppl scared that they may end up in prison or someshit ....
Like srsly , UEFA is one of the most corrupt organizations on the planet ( thats a fact . ) , and they are trying to imply that genuine support for nation in crisis should be illegal ?
Like really ?
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of course, you're assuming that it's genuine support for a nation in crisis, rather than just doing something to piss off the other side
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This isn't anything new, rules state that during football matches support isn't allowed to make political statements. Lazio Roma got punished a few years ago because one of their players did the roman salute. Barcelona got fined for waving pro-Catalan flags. It has nothing to do with being nazis. Politics has no place in sports. But tifos like the one below are perfectly fine.
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C'mon Barça have been flying the Catalonian flag since forever, and their presidents are deeply involved in politics.
The Roman salute has fascist and racist connotation (Blame Mussolini) so I would accept that being fined, but showing your support towards a country in a peaceful way? I'd say that's a-ok on my book
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Fly your own flag. Doesn't matter if you're right or not. Violence at sports events should be avoided at all costs. If uefa allows you to fly that flag then their is a risk the other support will react badly to that & riots occur.
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No you should not fly flags in sports, sports should not have anything to do with politics. Sports is sports, you want to make a political statement do it outside of sports. And I hope that Palestinian occupation, and any other occupation ends soon.
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Black athletes raising their fists. Countries refusing to participate in different sporting events. Olympic games suspended because of the World Wars.
Sports and politics go hand to hand.
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So yesterday, on the preliminary rounds of the Champions League, Celtic Glasgow faced Hapoel Beer Sheva and during the match they flew Palestinian flags in support of the oppression said country is enduring under the constant offense of Israeli troops.
FIFA is going to fine the club and the Scottish police said that people might face arrests.
all that for weaving a flag.
Here neonazi flags are shown every Champions League match and no one said anything yet.
Good fucking job everyone.
EDIT: Celtic has a story of taking political stances, this was NOT DONE IN ORDER TO PROVOKE OR ASSAULT THEIR RIVALS AS MANY CLAIM, BUT AS HONEST SUPPORT TO THE COUNTRY OF PALESTINE
http://i.imgur.com/HIKgvzX.jpg
But muh football and politics don't mix, I just suggest you read the aforelinked image.
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